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Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo

John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rachel Charge Australian ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative 10 Article # 8 September 2023 My name is Rachel Charge, I am a mother, ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative. With my hands and a small selection of tools, I transform textural clay into considered ceramic forms for elevated daily use. Beyond the practice of ceramics, I am an independent writer and storyteller weaving intentional words for mindful publications and conscious small businesses. I have always been creative and dreamed of being an artist in some form – I loved to write stories and draw in my early years and then my focus turned to poetry, photography and studio arts in high school where I sold my first artwork at 17 years old. My path has never been linear and it took time to figure out what I wanted to do and build the courage to put myself out there. I have a Bachelor of Business degree majoring in Public Relations and I suppose the common thread throughout the corporate roles of my twenties has always been writing. I fell in love with clay after taking a sabbatical in 2018 where I allowed myself to fully embrace my creativity. We had been trying to conceive for a few years by that time and clay became a beautiful outlet for me. I am predominantly self-taught in my practice and use hand building techniques to create my work. It all fell into place quite naturally, and I began selling my work and gaining stockists that same year. My husband, James, is my biggest supporter and we fell pregnant via IVF with our daughter, Peach, in 2019. The journey to becoming a mother in all its phases and fullness has informed my practice over time. Matrescence for me feels like the process of learning and unlearning. A shift like the seasons and huge period of growth. Throughout it all my artistic process feels both independent from and gently interwoven with myself as a mother. She is muse to me, and I am muse to myself. Motherhood has expanded my being. "Family is incredibly important to me. I love being home with Peach and integrating my passion for my art and life’s work around motherhood." ​During this season of my life, I am a mum first. Most of my week is spent with Peach while she is still little, and I have one full day per week where she goes to my parents’ house with her cousins. I make up most of my studio time on this day but also weave in some writing time where I can. Otherwise, I make the most of moonlight hours, weekends and slow afternoons. I have become more of a night owl since becoming a mother; surrendering to found moments and shorter intervals of time. I am more efficient now in the way that I work. Time is more valuable. As Peach grows (she will be four in November), a sense of consistency has returned to my practice and a rhythmic flow seems easier to find. I try to weave a little bit of magic and creativity into every day which nourishes both of us. Some of my best ideas have arrived during day-to-day activities with her. I am surrounded by many beautiful humans who are parents, small business owners, entrepreneurs, artists and creatives who inspire me in life and in parenthood. No matter what we do, we are all just trying our best to live how we want to live. My support network is everything! James, my parents, my three sisters and my friends who feel like home are my biggest supporters as an artist, a mother and a human. They always have my back. Having people around us who love our family and want to see us thrive is the most beautiful gift. I’ll forever be grateful for them. ​I have felt guilt in the moments of overwhelm, where I feel like I am juggling everything and nothing because the cycle of mundanity can feel endless. I live too deeply in my own head sometimes and it can be difficult to go easy on myself – to embrace the chaos. Being faced with my own humanity and fears can feel triggering. Since having Peach, I have always put the needs of me and my family first and move at a pace that we are comfortable with. I have experienced more guilt over disappointing others than I have experienced ‘mum guilt’ but finding my voice in the realm of my own motherhood experience has been invaluable. The process of matrescence has brought me back to my core values and the necessity for me to prioritise my work as an artist alongside motherhood. I want Peach to see the beauty and potential of life and give her the tools to grow into whoever she wants to be. "I do believe that there are still deeply rooted societal pressures on mothers and families regardless of the household dynamic. The value of motherhood is underrated. " My artistic practices will forever feed my soul, but this does not transcend the desire to create something of value. I want my work to make people feel. I want it to be worth something. I know it is worth something and this empowers me as an artist. I am one of four daughters/sisters, and our mother played a big role in being home with us and being involved at school. My dad took over my grandfather’s business and made it his own, so I suppose I am the product of both my parents in the way I have chosen to live my life. They are both now semi-retired and love spending time with their grandchildren. We are a very close family and spend a lot of time together. Family is incredibly important to me. I love being home with Peach and integrating my passion for my art and life’s work around motherhood. James is an amazing dad who has worked incredibly hard to be able to be at home with her as much as possible too. She gets to witness both of her parents working and being present to guide her. I do believe that there are still deeply rooted societal pressures on mothers and families regardless of the household dynamic. The value of motherhood is underrated. The value of artistry is underrated. The value of small business is underrated. Contact Rachel www.rachelcharge.com.au BACK

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. ​ Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. ​ Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. ​ **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** ​ Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project ​ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ ​ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 I am an interdisciplinary artist born in Toronto Canada and I create oodles of abstracted hearts. My desire is to spread some love while sparking conversation about our modern definition of love. I explore love as an action rather than a passive emotion. Art is my vehicle for deep diving into childhood, intergenerational trauma, and exploring constructs outside societal norms. My modern day artistic influences are Yayoi Kusama, Wendy Red Star, Rose Wylie, Misaki Kawai, Hannah Hanski, London Kaye and Tracey Emin. And if I could teleport back in time I would love to visit the studios of Hilma afKlint, Frida Kahlo, Louise Bourgeois, Joan Mitchell and Maud Lewis along with the studios of Jean Michel Basquiat, Cy Twombly and Keith Haring. I now live in a century home on 10 acres in rural Ontario. My partner and I are slowly restoring the home and beginning our adventures in regenerative agriculture. Art, farm, food and community! I dream of processing my own wool for textile and fiber work. I have always been creative. As a child I would create spaces so I could tuck into my closet, close the door to the world, and just doodle and dream. We moved a lot when I was growing up and I was always redecorating my bedroom - including moving my furniture and making spaces for myself to get lost in imaginary play. I recall this series of baby faces I drew. I would spend hours imagining them and creating unique personalities for all of them. Like so many kids I was told by teachers and guidance counselors that I lacked any innate creative skill and that art was not a valid career choice. So I went to post secondary to study psychology, knowing it was not the right fit for me, all the while making and creating on the side. In my early 20’s I was hospitalized for several years with depression and I put a pause on completing my degree. A story I share in depth later in the interview. Fast forward to my 30’s. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that was impacting my physical wellbeing, my mental health, and pretty much every facet of my life. A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. A very good friend invited me to attend an art class at a local studio with her and the rest is history. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health. The owner of the studio / gallery space where I was painting suggested a solo exhibit in 2017 and I have not looked back since. I am a multidisciplinary artist and I love playing with paint, clay, beading, collage, textile, fiber and found objects- depending on the demands of daily life -and what materials are available to me. I have 5 children - 3 are my biological kiddos and 2 are my stepchildren. The kids are age Nyles age 5 (bio Mom), Paige age 23 (bio Mom), Liv age 23, Noah age 25 (bio Mom) and Zya age 26. My partner and I met in our early 40’s, and though we both had two children from our first marriages, we knew we wanted more. We also knew we did not want to live with regret. So we immediately got to work and our family welcomed our son Nyles into the world in 2018. He has been the glue for our big kids and such a beautiful gift to our family. All five of the kids are creative in some capacity - whether it be drawing, painting, crocheting, needle point, sewing, cooking… "A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health." My art life is always growing and shifting as my personal and familial life changes for me. Right now I am taking a few weeks to care for my partner who just had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands. And last week my youngest was home with the flu. So the sofa became my studio - in between caring for sick family. But generally I start my studio time by lighting a candle and some white sage or incense for clearing my space. I then light some palo santo and do some self reiki. I ask that the work that I am about to do be in the service of the higher good of myself and all others. I then turn on some solfeggio frequencies and I journal 3 pages - stream of consciousness. A beautiful gift passed down to me from Julia Cameron’s book “The Artists Way”. Sometimes it is more than 3 pages and sometimes I doodle along the way - ideas that I have for expressing universal love and healing. I then carry this journaling over to my canvas or textile work. Painting, crocheting and weaving my daily experiences into my work. Asking the universe for what I wish for the world - love, peace, caring, abundance, compassion and I ask for healing for the parts of me that are still unlearning and learning. I often use aromatherapy, reiki symbolism, oracle card reading, crystal and sound healing in my studio sessions. Infusing each artwork with additional energetic medicines. My day is spent researching, creating, sourcing supplies, and doing administrative work. I try to meet with other artists and build in time to explore museums, galleries and art exhibits. Energetics and spirituality are a big component of my work and I incorporate reiki, sound healing , aromatherapy, and tarot/orcale in my daily studio routines. This is full time work for me. Often I am working during the day plus evenings and weekends. I am essentially running a small business where I am creating the product by hand - without an assistant ( on my dream list). So the hours are intense and I do my best to build my routines around family time. I have a very supportive partner who helps with a lot of the household chores so I can focus on time with the kids and my work. He also helps out in the studio with projects he finds interesting. And I have the kids in the studio as much as possible. I find I learn so much from their open minded exploration and conversation. And our home is an extension of the studio - we spend a lot of time making together. KEEP SHOWING UP! When things get hard, when things seem like they are not going to plan, or not making sense in the moment - keep showing up! In my experience, this is often when the big breakthroughs are about to occur. You just have to find the passion and drive to keep showing up for yourself and your work. My one other big piece of advice is - BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! If you don’t believe in yourself, and your work, how can you expect others to believe in you??? Do some self reflection to find out why you don’t believe in yourself and clear those blocks. If you don’t believe in yourself, your work, your worth and your message - then why should others? My youngest was really sick for a long stretch with covid this winter and it meant no studio time for weeks - so I started crocheting again. A gift my Grandmother shared with me when I was a child… and from that pivoting to meet the needs of my family came my series of crocheted hearts. I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family. I am very grateful to be a part of an artist parents group started by Sarah Cullen and Alison Thompson, called Mothra, here in Ontario. I have attended two very magical artist residencies with the group, along with my partner and our youngest son, on Toronto island. And the group now meets monthly over zoom to talk all things art, parenting and life related. Did I mention how magical this group is??? I also have very supportive kids and a partner whose family comes out to as many of my exhibits as they can. One of my stepdaughters joined me as my right hand at a recent exhibit in New York CIty and my Mother-in-law traveled with me to London UK for my exhibit there with the Other Art Fair. They not only support me but they support the arts, and artists, in general . It is fabulous! Both support networks have led to many deep conversations about life and art. And both have shifted the way I perceive myself, my work and the world around me. I wouldn't be where I am today without them. Parenting has taught me a lot about the importance of being in the moment, experimentation and play. And has allowed me to drop the accumulation of societal pressure and debris for perfection and judgment. There is a freedom in the way young children express themselves in the world. How they befriend everyone they meet in a minute, and are just curious about being alongside friends, and learning from them. No masks or pretense - no ego - all heart centered openness to present possibility and play. Do I believe Mum guilt exists - yes. Have I experienced it personally - Yes! Do I desire to perpetuate it — absolutely no. I believe Mum guilt is part of a larger societal problem of toxic patriarchal systems, designed to diminish a woman’s worth, rather than support and celebrate women. I find it crops up for me when I am parenting - and feel I should be working. Or when I am working and feel I should be parenting. Or when I am with friends and not with my kids and partner…. It is there, living like a mania right under the surface of my skin, always. It has me discounting every little thing I do or do not do… questioning… Am I working too much, Mothering too much, socializing too much…. Or not enough…. My way of working through it is being as fully present to each moment of my day as I can be. I have a daily journaling and meditation practice that helps a lot. I anchor myself with reminders of what my overall day, week and month has looked liked. Right down to the nitty gritty like reminding myself that I made a healthy lunch that took 30 minutes of time - but is a priority for my health and the health of my family. Without these grounding practices I find it is very easy to lose sight of my priorities, how much I have grown, and accomplished right up to the present moment . So I do my best to be fully present. If I am Mothering - I do it by choice. If I am painting - I am doing it by choice. If there is a chore that I am doing that does not excite me - I focus on the larger picture blessing. I am folding laundry because I make the conscious choice to bless my family with a clean and well organized home. Another chore I do not enjoy is washing my paint brushes - so I focus on the way I will feel when I walk into a clean, tidy studio. And the way I will feel when I am painting in that clean studio with well cared for brushes. It's all a mindset thing for me. Creating the beautiful life I desire, and deserve, to live. When my schedule calls for more rigorous work hours, away from family, I ask for help from my partner. And I trust that my family is in good stead and that I have banked precious moments with them and let them know how important they are to me. I cannot tell them enough in a day how much I love them and how I feel I won the lottery to be their Mom and partner. And because words can be cheap - I do my very best to live that caring through my daily actions and by taking more family time when my work schedule is less rigorous. I have essentially had three entirely different experiences with Motherhood. Once when my older children (now in their early 20”s) were born, once when I stepped into the role of stepmother and then again when my 5 year old was born. I don't identify with parenting as an identity shift at all. Parenting for me has always been more of an extension of me. A deepening of my relationship with myself, and of course, others. I see Mothering as such an immense gift. I find Motherhood very fulfilling, but of course, it is important to me to be more than a Mother! Just as it is important to me to be more than just a daughter, or wife, or sister, or friend, or artist. All of the parts are important and they all hold different importance at different stages of life. I do this by deeply listening to my own intuition and heart whispers and again being as fully present as possible. Learning to edit my life and prioritize what is most important to me. Saying yes to what excites me and no to what doesn’t elicit full belly butterflies. "I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family." Art is definitely fulfilling to me and I believe I am a better person because of the work I do. But I am also a better person because I have experienced Motherhood and cultivated unconditional love for another human(S). And of course I want my children to see me living a healthy and fulfilled life beyond parenting because I want each of them to live healthy and fulfilled lives. I think the most important thing is choice. And doing the things we do consciously, with great love, from a deep desire to make the world a better place. I recently watched a movie about Grace Kelly - an American actor who married the Prince of Monaco. For those who don’t know Grace Kelly gave up her very successful acting career to step into a different stage of her life. Mothering, supporting her husband in his role as head of state, and also doing what she felt best for the country she was called to co-pilot with her husband. And although she gave up her career, I believe she found a different purpose, and she carried out her duties with great passion. And I personally think that is a beautiful story. I believe the answer lies in more men - husbands, fathers - doing the same. Stepping up to either be primary caregivers themselves and/or loudly celebrating and supporting the work of the women in their lives. I do not necessarily think that our societal shift to a more work-centric model of living has been healthy for anyone - with - or without children. Full time parenting, done with great love, is one of the most important jobs one can undertake. I realize not everyone feels fulfilled in that role and I can’t help but wonder how that would change if societal opinions and remuneration about womens worth and caregiving went through a healing metamorphosis . As Mothers I feel we can’t win - in the society we are currently role playing in. If we work outside of the home we are judged for not being good Mothers. If we choose to stay home we are judged for not working outside the home and furthering women's rights. I think the problem lies in societal judgment and a course correction might find us living in a happier, healthier collective. Having been both a full time stay at home Mom and a working Mom in this lifetime I feel the important thing is having choice and a support network to pursue our passions while caring for our families. Creating is absolutely vital to my wellbeing and growth. Making money from creating is fabulous, but it certainly does not determine my worth, or influence my desire to continue to dream and create. Money is simply energy. A totally manmade construct. Used by others to project unto me what they believe is the value of me and my work - as an artist Mother. Money is great but I definitely do not allow it to determine my worth as an artist or person. At some very sad point in history society collectively bought into the notion that women, their voices, and their work, was (and continues to be) less than that of men. The artworld has sadly played into this toxic viewpoint by filling galleries and museums with somewhere in the vicinity of 90% male voices - some of which are extremely misogynist - such as Picasso. The collective, and the institutions we support, will only ever be as healthy as our weakest link. And until we recognize that women’s voices, and work, are not only vital - but equal to the work of men - we will continue to have a very sick society. I was born in 1973 and my Mother, who is Métis, was 15 when she gave birth to me. My growing up life was very abusive and it was a pretty regular occurrence for police and childrens aid to be called to our home. It was also common day for me to hear how my parents did not want me- and if they could do it all over again - I would not be here. I haven’t shared that publicly until now but I think it is an important thing for me to voice, because if I experienced it there are likely other young women experiencing it now, and I want them to know they absolutely do matter. And our world does need them and needs to hear their voices. My mother was definitely expected to work outside of the home, plus carry out all of the domestic duties, and she had little to no family and community support. It seems to me that women fought for the right to work outside of the home, and men said okay you can have it, but you still have to take care of all domestic duties. And that is still the case today with most women carrying the bulk of the domestic load while also caring for children, aging parents and working outside of the home. When my parents divorced I recall my Mother working three jobs at one point to make ends meet. My experience with all of this as a child, and the impact on my own parenting, is extremely complex. I am what they term a latch-key kid - I had no parents home to raise me. And as the eldest female I became responsible for the bulk of the domestic duties at a very young age. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent. Looking back I think I craved the family connection I did not have, and I very likely unconsciously craved the soul journey children would bring, even if I was not aware of it at the time . And I always wanted to be present for my children, to celebrate their unique voices, and for each of them to know how deeply loved and appreciated they are. That they are the most beautiful gifts in my life. It has taken me 40 plus years to realize that I can only give this gift to my children - if I believe it of and for - myself first. This is not an easy integration in a society that continues to perpetuate the toxic myth of women being intrinsically less than. Understanding my intrinsic worth, and that my voice and work do truly matter, is ongoing work for me. It is my work of a lifetime. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH CONTAINS MENTIONS OF SUIDICE AND MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES My journey with mental health struggles began as a young child. In my grade 7 year I essentially stopped going to school, and because I had no parent home, no one caught it.I flew under the radar - still getting well above passing grades without ever being present. I recall having thoughts of killing myself at this time. Thoughts that I carried with me until my early 20’s when I returned home from a night out with friends, took every pill I could find in my medicine cabinet, and went to sleep hoping not to wake up. I spent a few years as an inpatient in a psychiatric ward where I was diagnosed first as depressed and then as bipolar. Medications offered little promise and the side effects were often worse than the symptoms. I was then prescribed electric shock therapy and had several treatments until one day the anesthetist was late and nurses decided to begin strapping me to the bed before I was sedated - so their schedule would not be affected. It was such a profound and demeaning experience that I refused any further treatment. I then went on to try to kill myself one last time shortly after my final electroshock therapy. It was during this episode that I had a dream that all of my family were present (they never attended the hospital during my depression) and a doctor was speaking to them and telling them that I was going to die. And that was it. I made the decision that I wanted to live. I made the decision that I matter to me and that is enough. Contact Cherie My website : www.cherieharte.com IG : @cherieharte_studio I am currently working on a solo exhibit of my latest body of work “Gentle Loving Kindness for Everyone”. The details have not been released yet, but I am very excited, and will share on social media and to my newsletter subscribers once dates are confirmed. Until then my work will be traveling to the Affordable Art Fair in Seattle, New York and Singapore with Spence Gallery in Toronto. BACK

Rachel Larsen Weaver US photographer + artist-educator S2 Ep69 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) Rachel Larsen Weaver is an artist-educator and photographer joyfully living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay as a mother to five. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child and she has always been a reader. Rachel studied an Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Writing in College, creative non fiction and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher and in her current life calls back to this in her mentoring roles. When her 3rd son was born, she wanted to start a blog, and in an effort to provide good quality pictures - she bought a camera - and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos and soon she was approached to take photos for others. She delved into studying photography as an artform and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in story telling and through her Long Form Sessions where she spends days with her clients in their homes, she is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She's about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days, families, and worlds they create - and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self-love and self celebration are not reserved for the thin, white, young, able bodied, cis-gendered female. She creates environments for people to be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same through her Finding Myself in Portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat-affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and light of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mothers, bodies and details. Rachel’s unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies, their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy, Rachel brings a clear sense of purpose (and humour) to her life and her work with clients. Connect with Rachel website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website / Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest today is Rachel Lassen Weaver. Rachel is a photographer, and an artist educator living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay in the United States, and she's a mother to five children. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child, and she was always a reader. She studied a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing in college, creative nonfiction, and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher, and in her current life calls back to these in her mentoring roles. When her third son was born, Rachel wanted to start a blog. And in an effort to provide good quality pictures, she bought a camera and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos, and soon she was approached to take photos for others. Rachel delved into studying photography as an art form, and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in storytelling, and through her long form sessions, where she spends days with her clients in their homes. She is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She is about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days families and worlds they create and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self love and self celebration are not reserved for thin, white, young, able bodied, cisgendered female, she creates environments for people should be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example, with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same. Through her finding myself in portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and life of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mother's bodies and details. Her unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies and their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy. Rachael brings a clear sense of purpose and humor to her life and her work with clients. The music you'll hear today is from my ambient new age music trio called LM Joe made up of myself, my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to meet you. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, you're in Maryland, Maryland. Good job. Yeah. Yeah, we say Maryland, Maryland. Yeah. Whereabouts is that sorry, forgive me. My geography is not great. It's on the east coast of you of the US. It's the state that Washington DC the Capitol got chopped out of? Basically Washington DC, is in Maryland's region. Yeah. Okay. Then I know. I know what you mean. Now? What happened there? Why did they do that? So I was like, kind of Central Coast when it was the 13 colonies. And originally for Virginia had given Pete a piece too, because that's the state right below us. And it was a perfect square. But then Virginia took back their peace, I think during the Civil War when they joined the Confederacy, so now it's just like, the peace out of Maryland. That's funny, isn't it? Hmm. When when I read that you're on Chesapeake Bay, which is really cool, because I've been we were massive fans of the Hamilton musical. And there's a bit with the Chesapeake Bay. It's like anyone? Shout out. Excellent. What time is it? What day is it for you Tuesday? It's Tuesday and it's 10am. Yep. So beautiful. Where it? What is it for you there? It's 7:30pm. Monday on Monday. Yeah, cool. Okay. That's one of the things I love about doing this is just like, I used to have a lot of pen pals when I was a kid. And I was always fascinated by what the weather was, like, where they lived and what time it was, you know, all that sort of stuff. I love. I love it. It's so cool. We're both at like transitional seasons right now. Right? Going into spring. So it feels like we're extreme. Yeah. So we're halfway, like springs officially started. But we're we're going to start summer, next month. So we're like, it almost feels like it's going back to autumn. Now. It's really weird. The mornings are really cold. But then the sun comes out and it's beautiful. Then Then it starts raining. It's like it's wearing a mishmash of everything right now is bizarre. What part of Australia are you? So I mean, Matt Gambia, which is right down the bottom. In South Australia. It's almost like there's a border between South Australia and Victoria. And I'm about 10 minutes from that two minutes drive. Right, almost almost at the coast, probably half an hour from the coast. So yeah, it's an interesting place because we get a lot of like the weather comes across, like the Tet the Tasman Strait is like freezing cold. So we get all that weird weather. But then sometimes in summer we get the northerly winds. And it's boiling hot, like 40 degrees Celsius. I don't sorry, I don't know what that is in. You're really hot. I know. Like, yeah, and we'll have days of that on end. But then it will just go back to like, I don't know, it's really weird. Really weird. You have more seasons that Northern Australia. Yeah, we're really distinct. Like out there. They have like a wet season or dry season pretty much they I don't think they dispense with the traditional, you know, summer or winter, spring or fall. You call it fall over? Yeah. We call it either. It's allowed. It's actually cool watching all these physical fall a lot of people from America and it's like it's sweater weather. No, this was a good American accent there too. I love it. Everyone's getting like the pumpkin spice lattes and Oh, God love so you're a photographer. Can you share with us what you do? How you got into it? Tell us all about what you do. So originally my like, creative medium. What I studied in college, and when I started my MFA, do you have to ask isn't that translates right? Yeah, yes, it does. Yes, was in was in creative writing. And so writing was really my focus, creative nonfiction in particular, like writing personal essays. But when my third son was born, I wanted to start a blog. I like felt like it was the time where everybody had a blog, blog, too. And if you have a blog, you need pictures that nobody's gonna read your blog. So I bought a camera, really just so that I could have pictures for my blog. And because the writing was the part I was more excited about. And it's sort of, then I wanted my pictures for the blog to be better. And then people started around me started asking like, Well, can you take my family pictures or, you know, friends that were having low key weddings, that, that all the sudden photography was a bigger thing. As soon as people started to want to pay me, I felt an obligation to like, get good at it. And I'm just like, if somebody wants me to do this, I want to and I really dug into studying photography, as an art form. Like I feel very dedicated to photography. I spend a lot of time and money buying monographs. I love to have books of photographers work. I spent a lot of time studying that I try to go to exhibits as often as I can. Knowing kind of the history of it and who the the founding folks that have built something like that's a lot of my energy and I like to look into it because I think it kind of helps keep you from Instagram trends are, especially since photography is so easily shareable and it's easy. I feel like it's kind of easy to fall into thinking of it as a social media content, creative thing. And that's not how I see it, I want to make an image that does not just exist for social media. And I feel like it gives a lot of legitimacy to it. Because you understand that you're like, it's like someone studying the, you know, their art form. Like if they paint a particular way they study all the greats from that style, or whatever, you know, you're really invested in him. And he's in he said, monetary wise, too. But you know, you're, you're really into it, you're not just like, click, click, click, put on Instagram, you know, hashtag, whatever. It's a real, it's a real passion. And I can, like, nerd out so hard, I like, do like, I love books, I love studying. And so I wouldn't be a student for the rest of my life, if I could figure out a way to afford to do that. So I really do feel like a student of photography at this stage. And it really, I think, does help to create things that feel be, like I said, beyond what is of this moment, one of the things that I really think, studying that other work, when I'm just looking at social media as my inspiration, the things that do well, on a really small screen that you're kind of passing by quickly, aren't the same images that I want to return to again, and again, when public, like when I'm looking at larger in a book, and so it helps kind of realign me to my purpose to be looking at the thing that I'm trying to create, rather than the thing that's easy to consume. Yes, yeah. It's interesting, I saw, it's just reminded me of something I saw the other day, someone who I'm not going to remember what it was. But it was literally about that. The popularity of Instagram, yeah, we can forget what's driving us because we get the likes and the comments or whatever. And that, you know, our dopamine brain goes, Oh, that's exciting. Everyone likes me. But then, as you said, like, this is not going to be an era that lasts forever, you know, this, this will be a little blip on the radar. And already people are getting back to printing. You know, there's a photographer I know, here, Matt Gambia, who gets all her field, things printed on films, like she's got a film camera. Now she's going back to the olden days, olden days, everything I do everything on film. Yeah. And it's wonderful, you know, and same thing that people getting back to records, you know, that physical, we're sort of like rejecting this mass consumption of instant stuff. And we're going back to the important thing. So I think you're right, not just, you know, focusing on what's popular now. But the things that have stood the test of time, and, you know, will stand the test of time, the things that you're creating now, that's what I want to use as kind of my measuring tool. You know, I can't I can't be like, I mean, how many people do you know that are on Instagram right now that are like, so frustrated with that it wasn't what it used to be. And, and so I feel like it doesn't frustrate me deeply, because I don't feel a huge attachment, like pretty active user of it. And I like it, and I but it isn't the end all be all for me. And so I can kind of have a certain like, you know, casualness with it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yep. And that said something else that reminds me, so I'll do this a lot. Things will remind me and I'll go. And then I'll probably cut it out later, because I realized that I'm just rambling. But yeah, somebody somebody posted recently, they were leaving Instagram, because they weren't happy with one that somebody else actually owned their content. You know, we don't own what we put on Instagram, they could disappear at any moment. And to obviously, now with the changes in algorithm, they're controlling what people see. So they will like, come and join my email list, you know, come to my website, getting people back to that, you know, I used to work at a plant nursery, and we used to when people would come past the tool, and you'd say, Oh, would you like to join our email list? You know, the old the old thing of writing down your email, and it seems so pointless and dorky, but like that's what people are getting back to now, you know, this is motivation. I send them Monday night newsletter, it will go. It's funny. We're recording Monday night, my time. It'll go out and a half an hour. It's become my biggest driver of business. It feels like my biggest creative outlet. Like I'm mostly excited about people coming to Instagram so that I can get them to my newsletter, because it was sort of like my first love to it gives me a space to do that. I can share the images that I want without censorship. It feels like a different investment to the people who like choose to read that newsletter that they open it up on Monday night, it feels like a ritual for some people. Or maybe I'm just that I'm like, giving you this thing. And I'm like, Cool, Rachel. But I think too, like, that's your intention behind it, you know, it's not something that you can just scroll on, you know, it's a thing that is a special thing that people have chosen to be a part of, and that's thing you want them to appreciate? This is your this is your special way reaching out, you know? Yeah, and that's really, I think, part li having that does make me feel a little less freaked out by the algorithm. You know what I mean? Where I'm like, Okay, it's gonna be all right, the people, because the people who were most interested in working with me, they've already, they're already over there, they're following, they're keeping in touch with me. And I think we underestimate us. I mean, I know some are artists or less in like, the direct marketing, maybe that so many, like, portrait photographers, we use Instagram, to get business maybe in a way that's different than some of your guests like when you have musicians and authors, it can be kind of a different relationship. So I'd like to go back to this beginning for you with the writing, were you always into writing as a kid growing up? Yeah, that's probably the thing that I, it's probably the career I most often returned to. I mean, I've wanted to be so many things throughout the course of my life. But I think writing frequently was the thing that I returned to is something that I loved. Of all always been a reader. I've always been a writer. But it was interesting to me because as I said, creative nonfiction was my, my main genre. And I feel like it makes the transition into the type of photography that I create feels sort of in that same in that same genre that I want to, you know, there are so many conceptual photographers that I really love, that I kind of like when they're kind of playing with surrealism, or, you know what I mean that they're, they're doing things that are kind of abstract, or they're doing things that feel like deeply creative. And they love it, and I'm inspired by it. But that isn't the thing that I seek to create, I think back on, on one of my creative writing professors, which sort of adorably My oldest is in college right now. And she has this professor who was like, my favorite professor, because she's going to the same university. And it's his last semester teaching anyhow, that's brilliant. And, yeah. And one of the things he had said about creative nonfiction was, you can write in any detail that you need to in your piece, and it doesn't have to be true. Like, you don't have to remember what they were wearing. As long as it could be true. You know, what I mean? Like, what is the thing that Allison might wouldn't be wearing? Or would be eating or? And so I think about that a lot. When I'm taking pictures, it's not that I'm pure documentary. I don't mind moving the situation, or changing it. But I still want it to feel in the realm of, could that be true? It's not like true for a mom to be like, hanging around naked in her kitchen with her children. Where I like, see lots of like, kind of beautiful, and like, I don't want to make that picture. Like I don't you know what I mean? Like, but if you are a lady that, like, hang around in your undies in your, you know, big T shirt, then that is interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So anyhow, that's sort of like, I see how that writing background, how the how the details that I was most interested in like that, that that's then what I become interested in, in pictures. I feel like there's a real overlap between the writing I liked and the photographs I like and try to make. Yeah, that is so interesting. So would you describe your style of photography as documentary style? Or what's the best way to describe it? For a person who loves words I hate tried to figure though word is for it. Because I know it's not pure documentary because I feel like I am fine with adjusting the thing. Like, I often think about Sally Mann, who is one of my, you know, favorite photographers that I look up to, there's a picture where she has a bite mark on her arm, and it's called Jessie bites. And her son was Jessie. But she bit herself for that photo was in a biting phase, apparently, but then like she wanted to make the image. But she was like, this could be true, but it's not. So anyhow. So documentary feels like there's sort of a commitment to you don't alter the situation. And I'm not afraid to alter it so that it can in the period of time that we need to tell the truth that we need it to. But it's not lifestyle photography. It's not portrait photography yet. So it's kind of a mix between conceptual and documentary. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, that I mean, it couldn't be. Because if we think of the concept of speed, how much truth can we try to tell as fast as we can? I mean, which is funny that I say as fast as we can, because I, my preferred way to shoot is long form sessions, which are 24 Hour Photo experiences, where I like come into somebody's home, and I stay with them for a full 24 hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. So even when I say you're still trying to tell a whole family of a story, or a whole story of the family, even their 24 hours is so much longer. There's still so much story to tell. Yet, it's still a short period of time in the game. There's that part of me that keeps thinking like, How long could I make these go? Because I wish I had a week sometimes, you know what I mean? Like to make a body of work that feels like, oh, this could be its own book. This could be its own show, like how could this family you know, to show the nuances of it in the different relationships and how they shift in and out. That's sort of my fantasy. Wow, I this is groundbreaking. You're the first person I've spoken to, or first person I've heard of that does this this is amazing. Like to spend that amount of time I love it. No. Yeah. Because you really get to like, you know, I, I sleep in their house, I eat their meals with them. I wake up with them. I go, and because I say it's at least 24 hours sometimes because I'm flying places. We're driving like this weekend, I'll be driving down the coast. So you know, I'll spend Friday night with them shoot all day Saturday and then go home on Sunday. You really like you're seeing what know how the sausage is made? That's an expression that you use in Australia. Oh, yeah. You don't I mean, like you're in there. And I love it. It's like, voyeurism at its best. It's so exciting. I like fascinating. Yeah, it's a it's also interesting, sort of the backstory on it about a year and a half ago. Like so many photographers. I like needed to make a buck, as we often do. And I was offering, like, motherhood mini sessions, and I had a friend who was on the other side of the country who had done it so beautifully and pulled it off. And I was like, Yeah, was it okay, I'm just gonna like copy. And it flopped, like, not do very well. And I had that moment of like, oh, I don't think that this is what people want from me. I don't make portraits quickly. You know, even the way I was normally running sessions, I had a realization like, I think people want longer, not less time. I think people want to really get to show what's going on that we want to be validated in the work that we're doing in the in the thick of it. So I like got my act together. And I started long form sessions, and I booked more long form sessions that were like, nearly 10 times the price of a mini session, I booked more long form sessions that I had many sessions. Yeah, that's the thing that people wants what they want. Yeah. And it was different than what other people were offering. Yeah, yeah. But isn't that interesting, though, that it's like, when you stay true to yourself, like that authentic openness? And I'm not, you know, I'm not being rude to you at all, because I think we all do it. And I certainly know I've done it with this podcast. You see how someone does it and you think, Oh, that looks good. I'll do that. Yeah. And it was probably great that it flopped because it went well. Hang on. So grateful. That's not me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, it was and I think It's just the reminder, especially for like creative entrepreneurs, that we try a thing. And like, the next thing that could be super wildly successful for you can just be around the corner. And the more that we lean into the piece that we're really good at the part that feels the most aligned with the work that we're supposed to be making. But, you know, it's a little bit hard sometimes to like, brush off your bruised ego when you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Seems to be doing this so well. And I tried it and no, like, I had a real moment, like that dark night where you're like, I just was like, oh, yeah, he's question everything, don't you? Yeah. I'm so glad you got going. Yeah, you know, because I had, I mean, the big thing was, my oldest daughter was about to go to college, and I needed to make more money than I had been making. So I thought many sessions might provide that. And it didn't. So you, but this has been the end. So creatively fulfilling, it is the work that I want to be making, it's in the speed, one of the things about because I do shoot completely film, I can't, like film needs more light than digital photography. In low light situations, I can't be shooting very easily, like, I can do a flash, but that kind of, yeah, just the nature of it, you know. So it's not like 24 hours of a camera in your face, you know, in ebbs and flows, and that it'll be like, let's do this thing. And then it kind of settles back down. Maybe the babies are taking a nap or whatever. And then like, you kind of have the desire to like make kind of bubbles back up, like you do, like, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like almost three sessions over the course of the day, with some clicking in between. But I don't know the flow of it is so perfect, deeply exciting to me. Yeah, I just love it. This is an awesome thing I've never heard before. And I'm so like, I feel like energized. I don't know, if anybody in Australia does this cube, please get in touch with me. Sounds amazing. So when you're in people's homes, like you say how you know that it sort of ebbs and flows. You spending a lot of time watching these people, you know, that must be a passion for you to I don't want to say analyze people, but you know, you're picking up the nuances. You're saying, you know, and your focus is on, you know, the mothering role. Yeah. Is that part of it interesting to to sort of the dynamics and how people interacting? Absolutely. I mean, and maybe that's like a little bit the writer in me too, that I'm like, like to listen to the stories that I, I don't know, I feel like my friends and my family at this point. They like hearing about sort of the adventures of it. And there's no like, it's not not a priest or doctor or lawyer to tell your business to my husband once I'm done. No confidentiality agreement. But I will say I am not a fly on the wall, sort of. That's the other thing that makes me feel like not a documentary photographer. Sometimes. I'm engaging, we're talking, I'm trying to, through what you're saying to when you're speaking to like, what your motherhood experiences. What your experience because I mean, it is primarily mothers, I have done some sessions. With couples, I had one woman who was a single woman that had me come and do a long form. And it was so wonderful to see how somebody crafts a day. You know, it was, there was like really special moments where she was like, bringing out a 50 year old vacuum cleaner that had been her great grandmother's that was like part of her like Saturday ritual. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, things that you're like, Oh, this is what your day your life is like. But anyhow, so So the conversation is helping lead me to like what I think we should create, as well, that I'm not strictly observing. It's pretty. It's pretty dynamic. It does feel kind of collaborative. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you're not standing back and letting them go and just click, click, click, it's you're involved, and talking about things. And yeah, I love it. You've just blown my mind. Honestly, that is just magic. And that actually explains now, why your photos are so amazing, because I had a look on your website. As I told you before I speak to my guests. And it also explains why your writing is amazing on your website because you're a writer and that oh make sense. Now You fineries are so I don't know how to describe them. They're just delightful and divine. And the, the, the story that they tell is so significant like I, I mean, back in the day, I used to do wedding photography, because I loved I love the detail of stuff. Like I took a lot of photos of people's, you know, fingers and faces and, and there wasn't a lot of, you know, let's all stand up and take a photo of everybody. I love that detail. And I feel like this, this your photos they tell so much, you know, there's so much there, but it's I can't describe it in words. I'm not I've not a good way of words to zero. But you know that I don't know how to describe it. And you can tell I think the passion that you have for what you do, like, seriously comes out because you couldn't just go click click, click and get these photos. You know, there's a, it makes sense. Now it all makes sense. There's one of my favorite podcast episodes like of all time, Malcolm Gladwell has a podcast because I just like met Malcolm Gladwell is writing so much revisionist history, and there's one I think it's called King of tears. But it talks about how country music One of the reasons that like country music breaks your heart is because it's so specific. And maybe we've kind of like used to make fun of it. Like, now dad that like sort of trope. Yeah. But, but those like real specific details, like through that, I think it speaks more to like the universal than anything else. And so that is often like what I'm looking for. It's funny, I've had like, portfolio reviews and critiques. And not everybody loves it the way I do that. They're like, You should have moved that out of the frame or whatever. But for me, it's those like messy bits, that feel. I don't that they give it the depth and the nuance that I mean, and I still want it to be pretty. That's, that's the thing. Sometimes I see strict documentary photography. And it's I don't know, in so in attempt to tell the story truthfully, I don't, I don't know that they're not always beauty isn't as much of an aim. And maybe I'm like a little superficial. I do want it to have that. And I also do think people, the clients who are hiring me, they want to see themselves in an honest way, but like, their best. I mean, like you still want to feel like beautiful and attractive in in that even if it is complicated. And you know, yes, I think yeah, I think yeah, exactly. You can show the realness, but then within that, adjust it to, I mean, the person's got to look at it and like it to at the end of the day, don't they? They don't want to look go oh, this is so cringy I don't like looking at this photo of myself. You know, it's got to have that balance, I think yeah. When you first started taking photos, did you have any influence? Or did you just go intuitively into this is the style of photo that you're taking? Now, one of the things I do not think I'm a very natural photographer, I've worked really hard at it. There are other things that I feel like have come to me. It's one of the reasons that I kind of like mentoring is because I'm like, Oh, I think I can tell you how to do this. Even if you're not like naturally good at it because I like I have put my time in I have studied, it was something that I wanted to be good at. So, so I don't know that I'm there. So there was influence, and early on. Like I also believe a lot and like finding mentors and teachers who can help you along the way. Early on when I was like getting hired, all the sudden to take pictures and I was like, well, one thing I realized was this was before I was doing long form sessions when I was taking a picture of my children, which is what was showing up in my blog. I was clicking when the light was blue Before when the moment had come, when it had sort of naturally appeared? Well, now all of a sudden, I had one hour in somebody's house. And I didn't know how to like, make that moment happen. You know what I mean? So your natural tendency, then is to, like, start posing them into groups, because you're like, I don't know what to do when I'm in there looking at you kind of like, what do we do now? Yeah, yeah. And so that's when I found, I, like, did the research and found somebody who I thought was making family photography that felt deep and rich, and not like the pictures I was seeing everywhere. And I went to one of her workshops. And in the years, since we've just developed a relationship that turned friendship, and that it was somebody that has really helped guide and I recognize the importance of that, that, you know, having somebody to look at your work and be able to give it an honest critique. And I've tried other mentors and programs I've seen sometimes you're like, Oh, that was not my person, like they're telling me about my work doesn't actually resonate when you're saying that. I felt like confrontational like, oh, you can't tell me to remove that picture. So anyhow, you find that person, that vision aligns with yours, and they help you to amplify your voice. And I think that that is a really, that was a really powerful part of my growth in learning. Yeah. And so that's what drives you to help others then because it's like, you can pass on like he said, if you're not a natural habit, I've got some tips. Yeah, you can do it. Because that was me, you know. I mean, it's funny, I was saying to my husband, I was like, I actually think I might be more of a natural teacher than a photographer, because I taught in public schools in the US for eight years. And then for two years, I did an online school class that was doing almost daily zoom calls for two years during the pandemic, like I have a lot of teaching experience. Yeah. So sometimes when I'll do mentoring sessions, and people will say, like, that was so wonderful. I've done lots of these. This felt like the best use of my money that I've ever done. Sometimes I'm like, did not just say the things that like any. Like, to me, that's where I think everything is some sort of like obvious, but you realize that maybe that's the piece that comes more naturally. Yeah, and I guess hearing things like you could hear the same thing. 20 times 20 different people, but it's not until maybe you connect with that person, you resonate with that person, and then you know, you will allow yourself to hear it. You know what I mean? Or to you to hear it? Yeah. Yeah. Because also like, if your friend who you feel like doesn't know anything about pictures is like, that's your best picture. You might be Yeah, who says like, whatever. You're an accountant, like Oh, I love that. Now, I want to mention some really amazing things about what drives you to take these pictures, right? I love going to take some direct quotes off your website, okay, which I love. It says self love and self celebration are not reserved only for the thin, white, young, cisgendered able bodied female. When I read that, I was just like, Go girl, like, I feel like there's so many of us, because we've, you know, we might have grown up with magazines with the airbrush people on the covers, and then the social media shoving thin people down our throats, it's like, you just feel so unworthy of being in front of a camera, or wanting to be in front of a camera. You know, it's just like, you read that and you go, yeah, if I feel heard, I feel seen. Well, like one of the things that I think has made me excited about photography. Like before I wanted to be a photographer, one of the things you know, I said there were lots of jobs and ideas that I would imagine that I felt like the straw like, I don't know that the work was supposed to be sort of about something and about something more that they're supposed to be an aspect of, like, activism or charity, or like that was so much. And sometimes I felt like I think maybe I wouldn't allow myself to consider being an artist because I was like, Oh, well, that seems like In almost selfish pursuit, I'm not saying that I agree with these ideas now, but you know, this was like my. But one of the things that I realized like as an image creator, as a person who makes images, that you wield a lot of power in, like what you show and where you show beauty and how you expand the definition of beauty, and how you allow other people to feel seen, and heard and accepted, when I was a kid, and I've always had a big body, like I never, there was never easy to buy clothing, I could never share clothing with my friends, I always felt like the fattest kid in the class. Because I was the fattest kid in the class, like, just in truth, that was just fact. I thought, when I didn't see people like me, in TV, or movies, or magazines or catalogs, I didn't think that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so now that I have like, a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself. The best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, Oh, yes, I get to do this too. Yeah, it probably makes your clients feel more comfortable to be themselves because they know they're with someone who has done the same thing. You can just relax and it almost feels like a camaraderie that okay, you know, I've done this you can do this, you know, and you feel empowered. I guess that's been that's definitely what I want. One of one of the stories I tell sometimes one of the bad mentoring experience, I went and paid for a mentorship with a wedding photographer when that weddings were still a bigger part of my, my work. And I really loved her editing and her low light. The way she did things This was before I was shooting film, either. But when I showed up to meet with her, the first thing she said to me was that I should not have plus size bodies on my portfolio or Instagram. Oh, it was like particularly shocking, I thought to tell straight to a plus sized person that I was like, oh, did you like think Did you like walk out right then? No, because I felt like $800 and I and I was like, Do you know what I mean? It was one of those times where you're like, what, like we hadn't even started we had like gone to get a cup of coffee. We hadn't even started the mentorship yet. And I was like, what, but you know, also, how hard is it to like, learn once you feel really shut down? Oh, yeah, actually, it was one of those things that was really invigorating for me. Yes. So like a screw that. Yeah. Like that is absolutely. I will use my like I said, my limited influence my limited platform to be like, That is not the story. I would love if that person could actually see what you're doing now that she would just get a shock of how amazing it is and how wonderful it isn't appreciated. I know though, it's funny, I had seen that at some point during the pandemic, that this person had been hired by a brand to shoot a plus size model. And that made me so mad that I was like I I think this woman is like entirely fat phobic. And now she's like, because she's being paid for the specific thing like yeah, it made my blood boil because I was oh, that poor body in front of her lens that isn't actually loved. That isn't like, there she is not seeing the beauty in that person. Like I don't, I don't believe it. But Isn't that an amazing gift from the universe though to say the thing that you're most afraid of? For whatever reason there's got to be something that's gone on in that woman's life. Here it is. And you can have some money for doing it and she would have been so conflicted she would have been doing need money or do I need to not do it? No. It is like I want to Oh my god I have been a fly on the wall that circumstance but you want to die. I would love to know now. out if that, if that changed her at all, if she in some way, developed an appreciation for a body, that's not the typical norm, which actually, I would argue that we probably are more normal than what, like, you know how, yeah, the site the size of clothes, the the, you know, the average size of clothes, the most popular size of clothes to get sold in Australia is a 14, which, I mean, fourteens aren't super small. But you know, it's, it's the other end of you know, the 810 12, you know, so, you know, our bodies are like, the normal one. And one of the things I also realized, and I, that I always had this idea that if I could achieve the certain thing, then I would feel beautiful. And I realized, I met all of these beautiful, stunning humans, and they didn't necessarily feel that they were beautiful. And I realized that there was actually like, no direct correlation between how someone looked, and how they felt about their own self and their own body. And I was sort of like, well, if there's no correlation, I might as well just decide I love myself. Because, like, it seems like, you know, if people can do it the other way, then I'm just gonna, and also, I've always just wanted to be like, a little weirder than I am. I'm actually like, more. And I was like, you know, what I think my ticket will be is I'm just gonna be the woman who loves herself. And but how bad is that? But that is groundbreaking, you know, is that new bad or was that that's what societies can do. But like photography, it was something that I had to work on. I had always loved me as a person. But I didn't love the body that I was in. Like, I thought that my body was sort of unimportant. In the grand scheme of things. I was like, Oh, it's okay. I love my spirit of my soul. I love my personality, I love my intellect, it my body is just like the bag that carries that around. And one thing that had recently sort of occurred to me, no one thinks it's because it almost seems shallow to care about bodies. Nobody makes it shallow to think that a mountain is beautiful, or a flower or a sunset, like there are all sorts of other physical forms that we get excited about, like, why can't I be excited about my physical form? Or yours? Like? Yeah, yeah, like, when you're saying that I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, I don't know what year I'm not a, I'm not a an art person. I don't understand a lot about things in art. But, you know, in some time in art, they were painting bigger bodies, you know, they will luxurious, and, you know, I can just have this image in my mind, you know, like, luxuriating on a reclined something, you know, and they were celebrating, you know, even the, what's the one that's coming out of the luxurious? Yeah, like, she's not a size too, you know, like, yeah, you know, when did we get to the, is it all about this selling, like advertising? And, you know, making money and capitalism is that, that switch that's going off some in some point in the world. I mean, I'm even thinking about in Mad Men, because that's one of my favorite TV shows. Love that show so much. You know, Joan, bigger bust round was like, you know, she had a really gorgeous figure, hourglass figure. She was, you know, craved by the men, you know, and you had all these little stick figure like Peggy and whoever running around, who people couldn't give a toss about. But then at what point did it actually go? No, we need the thinnest person possible. And that's all we want. It's the thing that feels important to me is to be like, That thin woman is beautiful, that round woman is beautiful. That older woman is beautiful, that black woman is beautiful that like that the person with the moles the person with the hair, the person with the freckles, person with the stretch marks, like I just want, I want more beauty in my life. So I just want to keep expanding the definition bigger and bigger, so that it also holds me but that it holds so many people because then I get to experience more beauty. And like I am a glutton for beauty. I am totally a hedonist. I love pleasure. I love looking at things that I'm like, Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I just want to be like, how come there has always felt like there has been some control over women's bodies, no matter which way, maybe it's about thinness. Or maybe it was about that? Oh, you shouldn't be too strong. You should look like this or youth or, like, what is fertility look like? Whatever those things are. I just want to like, say be us to all of it to be like, there is so many ways for a thing to be beautiful. And I'm, I'm not interested in just seeing one flower. Like, why would I just be interested in seeing one body type? Yeah, I love that. Like, yeah, and it reminds me too, because I actually had this conversation with someone on the podcast about why we'd want to Beauty but beauty is literally in the eye of the beholder because I love dead flowers. You know, dead flowers aren't meant to be beautiful, they're dead. But the color the roses when they die, their color comes out in a different way. And they, I don't throw them away. I just have them all around me because I just love them. You know this? Yeah, who decides what's beautiful, you know, one of my like, one of my favorite concepts. And there was a book I returned to a lot. wabi sabi for artists, designers, philosophers and poets, I think. Anyhow, it is a, you know, it's a little it's a small little like treaties on the idea of wabi sabi. And the idea of like, the beautiful and like, the imperfect, the in let's think, the imperfect, the impermanent. And one other thing that I can't think of at this moment, but you know, I'm with you, when we start to see beauty as like the full cycle of life, even in the death that there's beautiful when we start to see that like that, that whole that that comes in every part of the cycle, like, we've just expanded how much beauty we get to experience and like, we don't have to hold on so tight to the beauty that we think exist in this moment. You know what the next one is good. And when that flower rots, it becomes more flowers. And that's also beautiful, like, it will feed the ground. Yeah, cycle of life. I love that. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That brings me to talking about there's a sorry, I'm just going to bring it up on your website. So I can say the right thing. Finding myself in portrait, a self love guide disguised as a self portrait primer. So this, I guess, is your way of saying encouraging people to unite except themselves find their beauty. And, you know, this is the medium through which you will work through things, I guess. One of the things like in that digital guide, I don't like I see self portraiture as being one of the ways that we can access like a self love self care routine, I don't think I think to just start taking pictures of yourself without like having some of the intention behind it with some of the practice it can be. You know, it doesn't have the same meaning in the same depth. And meanwhile, like, you can definitely have like a self love practice and self acceptance practice that doesn't involve self portraiture, but I just liked the way that they come together. One of the reasons that I started with self portraiture was thinking, I want to show different bodies, I guess I have to start with mine. And it was sort of a hard reckoning at first, at first you see pictures of your body, and you're like, What the heck, I I was so used to the image that I saw on a mirror that I could adjust. Yeah, that I could see myself though, you know, how we all get your faces or mirror poses and like, Yeah, but then I was making self portraits. And I was seeing things that I had hidden from my own view, I did not know myself, completely and fully. And at first, it was shocking. But like, now I know me so well. Like, it doesn't surprise me when I see those things. Like, she is familiar to me. I know where her bumps are, and her cracks and her lines and her dimples. And, you know, I and I have a loving acceptance of her. And that has been a real powerful tool for me to be like I had, you know, can you think of all the times it's like your friend shows you a picture of yourself? And you're like, Oh, God. Yeah, at this point, I can be like, yeah, sometimes make that expression under those circumstances. And it's okay, because I also can do this thing, like, everyone I love. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, even the people I love very much. I don't always think that they're like, the hottest person in the world. Yeah. Doesn't mean that I don't see like their flaws are. But it does mean that like as a whole I love and accept them and I you know, see the beauty in them. I don't think that loving yourself has to mean that you don't see some of that and recognize that. But to say like, oh, I'm still worthy of my love. stretchmarks and all. Exactly. Yeah. And this concept of you mentioned earlier briefly, that we have to wait until a certain time before we're happy, you know We have to lose the kilos. Or we have to, I can't even think of another example. That's the only thing I've ever had in my head, you know, until this happens until I get to this way or till I can fit in that dress, I won't be happy, you know, you just put your life on hold. And there's so many industries that just tap into that, you know that in the fitness industry. I used to work in the fitness industry for many years. Toxic as hell, when you're in it, you don't really see it. But you get out of it. And you think, oh my lord, you know, it should be outlawed. Yeah. I can imagine that. That was like really painful. You don't even realize that it's going on, but you're like, but again, because I think we often just think it's about ourselves, and like, we're the problem. What they're doing isn't the problem. Exactly. Yes. Oh, no, I mean, powerful way of looking at it. Yeah. But I think when I think about like, it can't be the other thing. And unlike you, it's always easy for me to think about it in terms of weight, because that had always sort of been my thing, but I realized other people, they think that maybe the Botox, or they think that if their hair is different, or if they're, you know, they've got what there's just a million ways to feel uncomfortable in your body and we have been sold for so I mean, one thing that I have to say is, I do think that that is changing to some extent, like and one of the things that I encourage in that guide when I talk about this sometimes, in other places. Consider what media you're consuming. If everything on your Instagram feed is thin, white, heterosexual women of a certain age, you need to diversify that. If all of the TV and all of the movies everywhere you're buying clothing from kind of makes you feel bad because you don't see your body represented in it. There are ways to not do that anymore. Like there are I love when I'm watching television shows, they tend to be like a little more on the RT side. But when you're seeing skin that looks like real skin, there's a TV show. I don't know if it made it to Australia, Betty, it's like a skater girl. Not sure. Borders in. In New York. The first season was like New York in the summer. And it was just like, so beautiful. I mean, the cinematography of it was beautiful. It was interesting to me at one point, there's a character that just had lots of acne on his face. There was no mention of it. It wasn't a part of the storyline. He wasn't being made fun of for it. It was just like, yeah, here's some real skin. And it just was treated as normal. And it was so fascinating to me how that made me feel that I was like, That is exciting. Yeah, see that? Yeah. Yeah. It was shocking. The first time I saw catalog where I felt like boobs, stretch marks, and it was like on a plus size model, they'd always had plus size models. But I was like, Oh, my literal thought was, oh, somebody messed up, they forgot the airbrush. They're gonna get in trouble, like, somehow that had like, passed by editors. Because it was so novel to me at the time that I was supposed to say that. Yeah, I actually feel like, it's one of these moments that it's happening now is that advertisers have realized that we want to see normal bodies. And it's, I mean, certainly the the things that I see anyway, it's, it's so noticeable now that it's just becoming normal. You know, like, when I first saw it, I remember saying, Ah, it was some, it was, like, some rolls over the top of a pair and leaves in it. And it was just like, Oh, I wonder if they meant to do like, same thing did was Did that go through somehow. But now it's everywhere. It's like, it's becoming so normal, that it's not a big deal. And I think that's really important that when it stops, like, the acne, it stops being shocking. It's, it stops being out of the ordinary, then that's really good. You know, that's where things have really changed, you know? Yeah. And, and I feel excited for younger generation. I'm, it's interesting, because I know that people give social media a lot of hard time and the effect that it's having on our teens, in part because my oldest my 17 year old daughter, like, I don't know, the part of Tiktok and Instagram that she seems to be interested in is like that, you know, queer people of color content creators. So like she's isn't I mean, there is a way to has given marginalized voices. A platform. Yeah. And I think that that can be exciting and that like we need to remember that that It is also happening. Yeah, in a way that I think is really powerful. Yeah, that CD, isn't it? I think. Yeah. And certainly a lot of conversations I've had on this on this podcast is like, you know, in Instagram, and I'm not on Facebook a lot now, but and I'm not on Tik Tok, because I feel like, it's just another thing for me to see, am I not doing anything? Yeah, I thought but you know, Instagram, it's got its place, you know, my, you know, people I speak to mostly have a business. So, you know, you've, you feel like, you've got to be on there to get yourself out. And then we're so quick to bag at art shows this and shows that, but you're right, if you shift your focus, and you say, right, I'm not seeing what I want to say, seek out the things you want to see. Because they are there. Like you said, the these marginalized voices, they are there, and they're trying really hard to be heard. And that's interesting you say about your daughter, I think a lot of the time, we don't give our kids enough credit for actually how switched on they are about the world. You know, I think we're coming at it from our world of, you know, we're all on social media now. But we didn't grow up with it. So we we've been through this year of fear about it. And you know, they're predators and whatever. So we can come at it from that, which obviously is important. I'm not diminishing that at all. But we can come at it from that fear perspective. But like my example of my son, who's 14, and he got on to Arkin, he got on to Facebook once, as I said, I You can't be out to your 13 or whatever. And he didn't tell me that he'd been on it. And so I had this conversation, are you not going to tell me if you're doing this stuff? And I don't mind you doing it? But tell me he goes, Oh, yeah, I was on it for about 10 minutes. And I thought this is a load sheet. So I uninstalled it, you know, and, and he has this very, I don't say jaded view, but he's very questioning about why people do what they do. On these platforms. You know, he sees the girls at school, particular groups who record the Tick Tock dancers. So he's like, Ah, I'm not gone there. Because all they do is those stupid dance, you know, like, kids aren't stupid, you know, and they're quite painful at times, you know, to make their decisions and say, This is what I want to consume, probably more so than what way? You know. I've heard a lot of things and it's like Millennials spend more time on their phones, the Gen Zers do and I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, maybe we're given them a hard time. In places, I'm not saying that there aren't mental health consequences. Some, but I think some of the conversation shouldn't be whether this is good or bad, but like, how are you going to use it? What are you going to do with it? Yes. What? And like, have those conversations rather than just acting like, the only conversation is, what? What platforms are you on? And how much are you on there? Yeah, like if for what purpose? What are you trying to get out of it? Who are you seeing? Like, you know, he knows me. And you know, there's also how you get to have all sorts of meaningful conversations, especially with your tweens and teens getting older. Yeah, so some interest in those places, opens up a lot of conversation. Now on that we should talk about your children. Now, we let's mention that you do have children. Tell us how many do you have? Five? Yeah, they run the age gamut. There's Awesome. Yeah, so I have a 17 year old, 15 year old, a nine year old, a seven year old and a three year old. Oh, beautiful. I mean, one of the things I live in the same small town that I grew up, and within like, I'm one of six kids and five of us still live within a two mile radius. Yeah, my mom is here. My dad, my grandma, my aunt, my cousin's like, you know, there's six, soon to be seven nieces and nephews who you know. So one thing about having a big family is just that I have such a support network that I don't think everybody has. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, having five it would take a lot of time to do things. We'd need that some food. But then also, my kids are so spread out in age, it really helps. My oldest is home from college this weekend. But like, you know, if we're about to go somewhere, she's helping get the three year old dress or their energy. Do you know what I mean? There's because I do so much traveling for work these days where I'm going away to shoot these long form sessions. Oftentimes, you know, my 15 year old is baby is watching his younger siblings, we live really close to the Chesapeake Bay. So he'll like take them to the beach or take them to playgrounds and kind of, you know, help do things while my husband's working. Anyhow. So it's really a it's deeply a family affair. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, really team players about it. That's awesome. That's something I wanted to ask you actually about, you know, having your children see what you do for them to see you as I put this in air quotes more than just mum because we're never just mum. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I am not like a martyr by nature. Like, I love mothering. I love my kids. There's, but like, I, I didn't want that to be my whole identity. Like, there's other things that mattered to me. And I'm okay with them realizing like, we do things with each other and for each other, and we go hard as a team. And also, we get to have our own lives and our own passions. And I want you to see that, like, I'm going to pursue those. Especially because my oldest is like you she wants to be a songwriter. That's right, because that's your Yeah, medium. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, I have a day job, but my my love my first my first one is music. Yes. Yeah. I feel like I've shown her like, this is how like, you are gritty and you work and you like, keep going. And, you know, I like we talk about those things and how you market and how you network and how like, because if you want a career in arts, either you're gonna have to have a day job and it's like more a hobby, but if you want a career in IT, like you're gonna have to hustle. That's a lot of work. And it's a hard slog. Yeah, there's much easier ways to make $1 Yeah, it's it's the constant pool, isn't it? It's like the creativeness is always there. And it's like, like, I'll be on my day jobs with children. I work in the kindergartens here make Gambia and, you know, you're thinking of stuff, you're always got that that brain on it, like, Oh, that's a good chain quickly, running to the toilet and record it in my phone. You know, like, it doesn't turn off, you know? Yeah, yeah, you'd be this say really love that visual. Details I live for God. So with your traveling, you said you'd go away a lot to do these long form sessions. How do you sit with the concept of mum guilt? What does that does that even exist in your world? I feel I feel more guilty that I'm gonna say I don't think it does. Because I feel I'm like, Mom. Okay, so one thing to know about me, I got pregnant with my first I was only 19 years old. When I found out I was pregnant. I was not with my husband and I were not together at that point. It was like, totally an accident, and it was not planned. And so I sort of was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna, like, try my best. But there was a part of me that maybe because I wasn't like, a thing that I had planned and gone into real intentionally at the beginning, that I was like, we're, we're in this together. I'm gonna give it the old college try. Don't know that. In some ways, I think it's what has been my saving grace, though. That has been like, I'm pretty good at presence and trying to decide like, if this is what's in front of me, I want to make the most of it and have but to some extent, I feel that way about my kids to like, this is the mom you were dealt. And she loves you fiercely. There are things she is great at and there are things that she is not. And one of the things that is important to me is I try to find a moment, moments of deep presence with my kids that I'm paying attention that I'm listening that I'm there with them. And I do not hold myself to a standard that that has to be all day every day. I think that some I think that sometimes moms act like if I'm not giving them everything which none of us are even capable of, then they're then they're feeling guilty every time they pick up the phone where I would much rather kind of have like a clear delineation of like You got your time, and now I'm having my time. And that's okay. Yes. Yes. I don't have to be your everything. And you're not gonna be my everything. Here here. Yes. Round of applause. Yeah, honestly, I feel like that that's something that I am really strong on his like, I'm not gonna leave behind the Allison that I was before I happen to have children, it hasn't made me a completely different person, obviously, I've changed, of course, we all change, we. And even if we don't have children through periods of our lives, we change. But just because I have these little people here does not mean that I stop. And everything I've ever done is just watch from the page, because I am now a mother. And I want my children in a respectful and kind way to understand that I am still May. And when they rush in here and say I need this, I need this, I need this. And I've just spent, you know, two hours playing out the back or whatever. I actually right now, I'm right in the middle of something that I've really liked to finish. Come back to me in 10 minutes, you know, and there is nothing wrong with saying that, you know, don't feel like want to teach your kids that they get to have like some boundaries. And like, everybody doesn't stop the the world. One of the books that was like super influential when I was pregnant with my first. Yeah, I have not watched a lot of Oprah since but at the time, I was like watching a lot of Oprah I was a little depressed or lots of the pregnancy. But I remember, there was a book called Confessions of a slacker mom, I wish I remember who the writer was. But I like loved that book. It did give me a certain permission because it was talking kind of about the benefit of being a slacker mom, that doesn't jump at your kids every whim. Because like, What good are we doing for them? This little shits? They're gonna think things about them like that is not? Yes. So you're actually doing them a disservice by sending them out into the world thinking that, you know, everything revolves around. Yeah. Well, so like, yeah, wait, turn, you will figure it out. And, and but then they're, I mean, I like family dinner is really important to me. That's like something that I love. I don't mind the emotional labor of the fact that I'm like, the one who buys most of the groceries in the house, that I'm the one who prepares most of the food that like dinner is sort of my domain. And it's a thing that I give to my family because it's important. And that's a time where like, we do come together and we and then I don't mind that I like leave the dishes for them and then come up here and this record this podcast with you like, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, now it's my time. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's so important for, you know, your children to see that because they're going to take that into their life. You know, I feel like, you know, my parents was not, it wasn't like this, you know, I felt like, if we wanted something, you know, they did it for us. There wasn't? I don't know, it's like, it's a different a different time, I think of setting boundaries and saying, hang on a sec, you know, particularly women, you know, yeah, this is not okay for us, you know, I'm putting my hand up. As I say this, it's like, no, actually, this is not okay, now is the time that this is going to change. And we pass that on to the next generation. Hopefully, yeah. Because how many of us have mothers that we love so deeply, but we're thinking I wish you had kept more for yourself? I wish that you you know what I mean? Like, you were doing it all for us. But like, I want you to have, you know, the people we love, we want them to have held on to that. So really, we're doing our kids a great service to hold on to a piece as when they're adults. And they're not going to feel like we depend on them in the same way. And I don't know, I think that's says a woman who sees her mother every day and I absolutely depend on so. I've got my family here. You know, my mom and dad, okay, I was the same thing. I was born in this town, I have no reason to leave, leave this town. My sister literally lives around the corner. You know, she's just over there. But you know, that, that family thing, I'd need that support. I'd be I'd be stuck through that. I couldn't do half the things I do if I didn't have mom, you know, and I want them to know that like, Hey, you can stay and you can do this. Like, I'm going to be okay either way. Like, my happiness does not rely on your constant presence necessarily. Like, I mean, and I've gotten especially because my first isn't in at home in the same way. When I realized like, oh, no, there's still like a really meaningful, deep connection that we can have even when we're not seeing each other daily. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a visitor I'm speaking okay family. Come say hello. Just take me is this bagpiper? This is Rachel. No. This is not the bagpiper. This was a little i This is little Lisa's degree. How old are you, Digby? How old are you? sound a bit louder. Seven. I heard I've got a seven year old to me. How are you going? Do you need something in particular? Or are you coming in to say hi? All right. Yeah. It's a Yeah. So yeah, I'll be out soon. Okay. Come on. Face. That way. All right, there we go. See how we go for the night? Yeah. That's how we make it work. To being a mom. You read this book has been like one of my favorite books this week? Or this year? Baby on the fire escape? Oh, no, I don't know that one. Okay, so I'm writing the art of being a mum. So this is it's a book that looks at different mother artists, mostly that were born in about like the 1900s. Because they wanted to look at like the whole course of their career. Yeah, but one of the things that they see the power of interruptions, like all mothers, it's the thing that like both our daily work, and also the trajectory of our careers get interrupted by childbirth by all of these things, but also like the daily will be trying to, like record a podcast. And anyhow, it's a great read. And it's like, really inspiring. I'm frightened that one day and I'm gonna check it out. I love that. Because I mean, it's it's inescapable, isn't it? Like, it's just you can't split yourself into who you are. You just you always. Yeah, I mean, the Myth of Multitasking, you can only single task back and forth. And yeah. And something interrupted. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to mention that I thought was really relevant of the way that you photograph is that you're talking about being present helps you with your lack of mum guilt, which is awesome. Yeah, we can all take something from that. Like, you can only do what you do in that moment. And there's actually no point, thinking it later, because you can't change the past or that sort of philosophy, but the presence in the imperfections, you know, life's messy, and that's what it is, you know, you know, I think the way that you photograph, it shows real life. And I, we've we've sort of talked about this in other ways, but I don't know, there's just so much to be said, for that acceptance in the moment. This is who I am, this is what's happening. And that can really give you peace, I think that you just go I did what I did. I've done what I've done. End of story. Yeah, that like it. And I know that that can be easier said than done. And the kind of thing that takes some practice. And I think, you know, that, that there are things that we can do to, to work on the release. And to, you know, one of the things I talk about, sort of frequently, like in my newsletter, and things like that is what is coming back into my senses as often as possible. When I'm feeling like I've, I'm moving out to be like, okay, my feet feel like this on the ground. And my clothing feels like this. And this is what I'm smelling. This is what I'm seeing. One of the practices and presence that I also like, tried to do, especially when things are starting to feel really chaotic, is I it's kinda like a gratitude journal, but I call it poetic sparks, where I'm just trying to like notice, to spend my day like noticing the little bits of beauty no matter what else is happening, and then that I write them down because it then helps, like, when I know that I'm gonna write it down, I hold on to them differently. And then I also get to experience them a second time in the writing. And then maybe I even get to experience them a third or fourth time if I revisit that writing. Yeah, and if you remember it in a different way, that it becomes less fleeting, but it does help me kind of just ground back into it and also to realize like, it would be things that are very sterile aren't where I find the most beauty. Like, you know what I mean? The things that are feel me The most perfect Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then acceptance to be like, actually like, when I'm in really like beautiful, perfectly styled super clean, super minimal homes. I find it less exciting than like, seeing the things that are left by the front door and like what story does that tell? And what does the like? What did the dirty dishes on the counter? Like? What did they hint that? I don't know. And all of those things and let me a bigger slob in my own home. Like it's a win whimsically. The shovelled a whole aesthetic like God, I love that. That's the new. That's hashtag. Yeah. But the other thing, sir, I keep referring to things you've written, but they're just they're powerful things, the joy in the mundane. And that is something that reminded me immediately there was a guest I had on last season. What was it early this year, I can't remember. Monica Crowley is an Irish artist. She's a printmaker, and a painter. And she is really similar in the way that she looks at it. It's like, you're gonna be at bed at the sink, washing dishes a lot, as a mother, and to actually find the joy in that. And she, she created this entire artwork, of all the experiences that she had standing at the sink and doing the dishes, I feel like we can get really caught up in celebrating the big things that happen. But in the meantime, we're actually just living our lives, and we're missing the life that's happening in front of us, because we're waiting for some big event or whatever, you know, it's existing and happening right in front of us. I feel like we diminish that. Yeah, it's like, it's we're just waiting for vacation. And especially if you were in the US, we don't even get the vacations that you Australians get, like you get a lot less of it. It's like if that is every week is just been waiting, if we're just waiting on the weekend. That's a whole lot of life to not be appreciating. And like. So I want to be able to say like, what can I do in the moment of folding laundry, which is like definitely my least favorite chore. If you can see the pile of clean laundry that is to the right of me right now. It's like, it's like been worked on today and it's knee high. Like it is significant. In that moment, what can I What pleasure can I can I get from it? And if I can't get pleasure from it, is there a way that I can add something to it? Is there like music, I can listen to our podcast? Or if I asked my husband to come in and help me and then we're talking while we're doing it, like what can happen so that this doesn't feel miserable? And like just a chore that I have to do. I'm like always try. I'm always trying to hack my joy to be like this be more fun. Because I wanted to. Yes, and we are in control of that. And I think that harks back to what you said earlier that you don't have a martyr mentality at all. It's not like Well, here I am suffering again during this folding of watching you know, it's like right how can I turn this around? And that's a really powerful thing to first recognize and then actually go and do you know you're in control of how you want to feel just powerful. Yeah, I love them. Love it I feel like we could talk for hours about this. This is so far. Oh, now I have to tell you about when you were talking earlier about artists sorry, particularly photography. When you want to portray something. You know, you've got to be that authentic yourself, you know, acceptance of your body and showing yourself. There's a photographer here in Mount Gambier. Her name's Louise Agnew. And I think you would love her stuff that feels familiar. She had she was a guest on my podcast a little while ago, but she shows herself in raw vulnerable and she's incredibly inspirational looking at her work right now. Yeah, yes. And I think that, especially in a town, like, you know, small town mentality, everyone's judging everyone else. What's that person doing? Blah, blah, blah. But you know, she's got this platform and she's, you know, projecting this stuff and it's influencing a lot of people and making a lot of people feel really comfortable in their own skin. So yeah, I was gonna say if you don't know her she's a really good one to seek out she's, yeah, talk about walking the talk or however you say it. She's she's doing this stuff. Yeah, no, i i Absolutely. It's funny though. We're talking about like, the small town Enos of it sometimes. Yeah, it's funny. Like, sometimes I'll post maybe a less, like, personal like, full nude self portraits out there. But sometimes there is like a little bit of burying some skin. Like, have posted it. And then you are at the grocery store. People that you know, like it's one thing to show the internet. It's so much more embarrassing when it was like your old Sunday School teacher or like, your neighbor feels like a little weird right now. Like being authentic. That's like, um, yeah. Okay, now I have to show my face. I get particularly embarrassed to act like the internet exists that I want to be like, can we just pretend it doesn't right now? Like, you know what's going on? Can we? Yeah. Let's just keep the conversation on like the cantaloupes look good today, right. Let's not let's not, let's not talk about my really, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I love that. So can you share with us? I mean, obviously, I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people to find you. But where's the best place for people to get in touch with you? I mean, my favorite thing is, if you would, if you're interested in weekly shares, my newsletter is my favorite. And you can find that either on my Instagram, that it's in the link profile, or on my website. It'll direct you there. And I'm Rachel dot Larson dot Weaver on Instagram or just Rachel Larson. weaver.com is mindful. So yeah, my newsletter is my favorite thing. Yeah. mentioned, but I like Instagram a lot. So yeah, I like it while the getting's good, who knows how long we have it for now? I'm enjoying the present. Yes. Oh, the newsletter. I mean, Instagram seems to go away anytime. Yes, and I think that's the thing too that acceptance of of the future to like we're not in control of some things and that can either scare the crap out of you or give you a tremendous amount of peace that it's like this acceptance of what will be will be and you know, and I try to hedge my bets a little like email list as that or but like Don't be can't count on any one thing as being our as being our Savior. It's not going to be it I'm can't control if Instagram becomes all stupid reals there's nothing I can do about like I'm I'm just not there's like important things that I need to be fighting. Yeah, algorithm is not one of them. It's not gonna be Yeah. Can't fight the machine. Yeah, hard pass. Is there anything you want to share that's coming up, or you want to give some things a plug? Um, well, at the end of October, I will be announcing the next round of mentoring sessions, which is like more useful for folks in America than Australians. Because they're like, an in person, or because there's an in person component to it. But um, when this airs, I'll be in the middle of the retreat, where people are coming to my hometown and staying in my childhood home and will shoot portfolio building sessions that are like, catered exactly to the portfolios they want to be making that I've arranged all the shoots around their specific goals, but I'm going to be announcing dates for them. next two sessions. So if you're interested in, in doing that kind of work, if making images that show beauty like across difference, that feel really rooted in presence, and imperfection, and join them in and date and all of those things that we've talked about. And if lots of the people who are joining these are folks who are interested in learning more about long form, and how they can bring that into their own business models, come check it out, fit for you, yeah. There's an image on your website. I've done yoga for a long time. And I had a small period of my life where I was quite thin. And that was a very short period of time. But now I've gone back to how I had that myself. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting that I'm hyper mobile. So I'm quite naturally bendy. Anyway. Yeah. And there's an image on your website of a lady. She's pretty much nude. But you can't I mean, she's got a leg in the spot. You can't see a bottom half. But, you know, she's doing this massive back then. And oh, yeah, I was like, I've found that so inspiring. Because it's like, I'm big. And you don't have to be skinny to be flexible. You know, like, yeah, I feel like, that's this thing that's still in my head from the gym. The gym days when I was instructing people was like, I don't know, it was like, it just reminded, like, I know this stuff. Like, I know, I live this life. I know it. But it reminded me like this thing that still stuck in my head. So I just banged myself on the head and attempt to get it out. You know, just reminded me that anybody can be flexible. You know? Why is this thing that you have to rethink to reflect? Sorry? That's like it. That's one of my favorite images that I've ever made. I love that picture. Yeah, it's just you. Yeah, it's true. But you're absolutely right. Like, we have these ideas about health and how it relates to body size. And they're frequently like, just bullshit, like, your strength, your flexibility, your endurance, what you're getting what I mean, like all of these sorts of markers that are actually important, like blood pressure, any of those things. They don't have to be related to weight. But we put so much idea on like, what the size or what a number says versus like, well, what is it doing? Also, you know, then there's a whole argument to over like, and you get to be loved even if your body can't do that, because there's a whole lot of non able bodied people that can't do those things. Yes, absolutely. I don't know. It's just not reserved for like gym rats. Yeah, yeah. This is a really fun talk. It's been one year ever. I'll have to do something new and exciting. So then I can convince you to let me come back on. Oh, I've got this new thing to talk about. Let's have another case. Let's Let's do it again. Thank you so much. It's been so lovely speaking to you, all the best with everything. And I'm really, really happy to see you doing this stuff, because it's so worthwhile is the word I'm looking for. It's really, it was really nice talking and thanks for giving. Mom's an artist and Mother artists like a platform. It's, it's my pleasure. I love that. I'm just grateful people want to talk to me. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic Mom

Luke Balkin Australian electronic dance musician and producer S1 Ep09 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this episode I chat to electronic musician, and producer Luke Balkin from Casterton VIC, Luke is a dad of two, we chat about balancing creating music with running a farm and being a dad, the importance of supporting independent artists, and how he incorporates his children into his music. Luke's stage name is LT Balkin. Connect with Luke here - https://www.instagram.com/l t balkin_music/ Watch Luke's DJ B*tch video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFsv0zo8BJY Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Luke's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Oh, come along, like thanks so much for being part of this special episode. No worries. Thanks for having me, Allison, of how to listen to a couple of the podcasts so far. And it's sounding really good. So yeah, it's great to be a part of this. Oh, great. Thank you. All right. So for those people who aren't familiar with your music, and what you've been up to Jordan, give us a rundown of how you got into music. What was the style is and what you what you're up to at the moment as well. Yeah, for sure. So I got into electronic music, being a DJ. And I also studied audio engineering at SAE in, in Melbourne. So I was, you know, recording bands and stuff like that in Melbourne. And then also DJing on the side. And, and when I sort of, at the end of my finishing up doing DJing I just wanted to sort of make music and, and at that sort of stage, I sort of got into the electronic music field. And, and yeah, started sort of producing tracks and making music and just my own sort of own sort of style sort of thing. So yeah, that's how it all sort of started out. I was I started out as a punk DJ, like I was at nightclubs in Melbourne, playing playing punk rock music, and, and, yeah, I used to record bands and stuff and do sound engineering for a fair few bands on the circuit as well. So when I do, you know, between their sets, I used to DJ at the clubs, and then they come on afterwards and mix them while up on stage playing. And that's, you know, that's my early roots has always been punk rock. So, you know, I grew up listening to that, you know, no effects and, and all those sort of punk punk bands, the early sort of Green Day stuff, and living and and all that. And that was the scene I grew up in. And, yeah, that's sort of sort of how my music career sort of started out really, it was, like come from, I've never been really musical as such, but I've always had a fairly good ear for music. So it was more to do with audio engineering and stuff like that. So yeah, but when I first started out as an audio engineer, it was a long time ago. And, um, we were, you know, Pro Tools just sort of started the digital era was just coming out. Well, I was, I was back when it was, we were recording off of like tape and stuff like that will cut in bits and pieces. So it was a long time ago. And then we're just sort of forming into that digital era. So yeah, it was a it was good time. And that's Yeah, so my early, early parts are all punk rock. That's, you know, that's where I sort of started the whole music sort of thing with me. So when you say, pre electronic sort of equipment, does that mean you were DJing? With proper records? And that kind of stuff? Back in the day? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's how, you know, we, as as DJs, when I started with like, with the punk rock stuff, it was all on CD and stuff, it had nothing really to do with, with mixing as such, you're just dropping the music after the song had finished. So you just had to have a really good ear to what would come on after that track was all it was really just whatever you wanted to play. But then when I that's what sort of got me into electronic music was that it all had to do with like BPM and actually mixing the song and actually making songs really mash together really well without sort of, you know, missing a beat. That's what you couldn't do that with punk rock music, you know, you're just playing songs after songs and just trying to keep the crowd entertained. As much as you want to do that with electronic music, you've got to be a good mixer. And starting off, too, with turntables, like I had a, like a reasonable time on turntables. But I wouldn't say that my main DJ was with turntables that was sort of like, turned over onto that the CD sort of format, and we were sort of mixing off of CDs and CD decks, the early early CD decks and stuff like that, but we were, you know, you had to be a but you had to be a good DJ, to, to be able to get by back then. And these days, you don't have to do anything. You can just push a button and it'll sync everything up for you and you know, and the kids love it. So it's a lot it's a lot different. It's a lot different these days. So, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people now just press play, and especially the young kids doing it now, they don't seem to be actually mixing live as they're going, Oh, it's 100% I, you know, my club times in, in Adelaide, you know, I sort of that's where I sort of finish my, my DJing careers was I had a, a, like, a residency at the casino, where we go and play there, you know, every, every Wednesday night, and it was, it was really good vibe, and everything like that, but we used to go out a lot. And afterwards, and that and two other clubs, and you go there, and you just go up and have a look and see what they're doing. And you would see people pushing play on like, a mix on on, you know, like a Spotify mix or something like that. And that was what they were doing. And I'm like, what, like, what are you doing? Are you actually doing anything up here or, you know, and a lot of did it lost its vibe, because the people they actually don't really know how to mix at all, they just have got a sink on their, on their mixer. And, and it pretty much well, you know, everything comes together and you get you can't get by if you go to a club, and you sit back and you listen to music. And you either know if it's a shit DJ are really good DJ. And that's, that's these days, you can go out and you put it to work and you'll you'll know straight away if it's good, it's good. It's a real skill then to as a DJ to read your audience to get those people back on the dance floor. You got to know your stuff. Yeah, that's 100% Like, yeah, definitely, if a DJ doesn't know what he's playing, or, you know, gets up there and, and hasn't got the right tools or, or know how to work the decks or anything like that they can fail just so easily. So yeah, it's just it takes it takes a big skill to, to do it. And yeah, a lot of guys out there are good at it are really good at it. And you don't actually see, or I don't know that many DJs that are right into producing though either though, like most of them are just you know, they just do their weekend DJs and stuff like that. So DJ gigs, so you know, you know the music you're making now, you're doing that all from your house, and you're working with people all around the world, which is really exciting. Yeah, 100% the music I make now is basically a collection of music that I made probably around about 2016 and I'm still making music now. I just a lot of the stuff that I made, I put a lot of time and effort into it. So I seem to like go back and revisit a lot of the older stuff that I made. And just keep working on on that. Yeah, so now i i Just jump online I've got a master over in America that I used and he's put me in touch with a fair few people to collaborate with singers that Charlotte lock who's from the UK and, and a fair few other artists that I that I just work with. And just you mainly for vocals. Yeah. And it's just really fun. It's just fun to sort of have a bit of a hobby and a passion for music and still be able to, you know, put something out there at the end of the day and have a bit of fun with it. So yeah, that's my sort of main thing is just as long as you're having fun with music, that's the main thing for me. Absolutely. You've got a young family. Tell us about your your children over there in Victoria. So I've got a young boy named Fletcher. He is coming up to three years old. And I've got a little girl Lexi and she's around one and a half. Alexis she is so yeah, we give her we just call it Alexei. So she loves that. So yeah. keeping you busy at that age, the two of them run around. Yeah, they sure they sure. Are they sure are they they they cause plenty of headaches but they are both really good kids and yeah, we love them to death. Yeah, so how do you go then finding time to to get stuck into your music and create when you've got little people? Do you sort of try and do it at night or weekends? How do you make it work? This is basically my time now it's like minute they're the kids go to bed at sort of, you know, seven o'clock, eight o'clock as I come up here I've got my own sort of studio up in what I call the school house. It's like an old converted school house just got like a bed for friends to stay in and it's just got all my computer equipment and stuff like that up here. So I just wanted to come up here and do my thing. You know, it's it definitely has been challenging, I must admit like coming from, you know, just having a part Under and being able to do music and that whenever you want to, to to, then only do it at night time, you've got to try and really, you know, focus and yeah, try and make the time that you've got, you know, make it work. Yeah, yeah, make the most of those limited little slots with the hours. So you also work you also run a farm, I believe. So you're, you're pretty much burning the candle at both ends. Really? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a three and a half 1000 acre farm over here in Casselton. And me and my dad work here on the farm. And we've got like, roughly set like around about 350 head of cattle, and so maybe closer to 400. And, and two and a half 1000 sheep here on our farm, so So it's extremely busy here, during the weekdays plus, up in New South Wales, our my brother, my older brother, he has his farm up there, which is around about 13,000 acres. So we used to split our time a lot in between the properties and work both sides of it. But now we tend to sort of stay one end and the other end of my dad sort of floats in between the property. So yeah, we were pretty flat out over here all the time. So, yeah, absolutely. And we'd be challenging then to try and, you know, with the kids, you wouldn't actually be able to sort of float between the two properties that easily when you've got your Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 100% it's made it made a lot different. Now having that having a family and stuff like that, it just changes things a lot. You know, so but, you know, that's just the part of having a family I guess you've got to make, you know, you've got to make changes yourself as well. So clincher is actually in one of your music videos recently. So I do, I do a lot of my own music videos, and I've been doing video for a long time, probably just as long as I've been doing music. So that's one thing I've sort of thought about doing is like, just just do it, just make the video yourself have a bit of fun with it and make it yourself. And they they just love it. They they love being a part of anything. And then when you go back like, you know, if you put if you put TV on and YouTube or tractors on, then you know he gets really grumpy. So that so when he gets on YouTube, and then he sees himself on there, he thinks that's the best thing in the world. Like he thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And he will watch it repetitively all day and Lexi, well, she just loves it, so she can't get enough of watching him or mommy on there. So they love it. So the I'm going to try and incorporate that the kids into as many of the music videos as I can and just have a bit of fun with it. Like I was thinking about sort of getting something you know, professionally done up and I'm just like, what, what's the hell, you know, like, just just have a bit of fun with it and do it yourself. It always like always think that if you have a crack at it yourself and it comes out real raw, it sometimes makes it give a more feel to it, then then something that's over produced or anything like that, like you know, you'll give your fuel footage to somebody else Now rub their hands all over it and, and make it glossy and everything but it doesn't seem as raw as as sometimes. stuff. So, yeah, we just had had a lot of fun making the video for DJ bitch. And yeah, we filmed it on our property. And yeah, we always had this idea to do it. But it was just really an idea. And let's let's just do it. And we had this footage. And it was it had just been sitting there and I said the laser I said we've got to finish it with like half it was shot. And I just sort of started putting it together and it just sort of slotted in really well. And yeah, before too long, I think, you know, the film clip I think was up to about 6000 views at last I looked it was it was quite a shock actually, but it's a good fun. It's a good fun video clip. So, you know, it was just a bit of fun and the kids love it and like I said they just can't get enough of watching themselves so it's really good. It is a great video and yeah, I didn't realize that you made that yourself. Congratulations because that is awesome. Yeah, no, I do all the all the video on myself and then I get back to the computer here and and produce it all myself. So yeah, it's just fun. Yeah. So you used to drown in that video is that you do that yourself as well. Yeah, I got my I got my own drone. And so the drone shoots in full 1080 Hey, He HD and I use the GoPro as well to get mosiello shots on the film clip because pretty much a GoPros these days, I just got some of the best, you know, the best pixels as well they just come out amazing clear and you can just sort of go through and edit up your videos afterwards. So yeah, drone stuff. I've had a drone for a number of years now and yeah, I love love flying them and just yeah really fun you kids obviously know that you do your music is that it's something that you you love sharing with the kids, it's important for you to involve them in, in what you're doing. Yeah, for sure my kids really love music. We got a thing at our house that we just love to put on music, like around tea time, or Saturday mornings and stuff like that, it's always music going on at our place. And we just yeah, we just try and involve them as much as we can, you know, whether it's listening to my music or, or listening to other people's music, and they love it, they love dancing, and they just love being kids and, and as adults mainly so we both love it as well. So yeah, that just we just make sure that they've got heaps vert arounds. And you know, they're not too scared to have a bit of fun and dance around the living room. Here in my studio, I've actually got a toy toy room here for Wednesday. So, like on a Saturday, if I'm, if I want to do music or anything like that, I bring the kids up here with me, and they've got their own toy room, and they'll, they'll play toys up here and, you know, push around the boats and the cars and stuff while I'm up here, you know, playing on the computer. So yeah, it's a really sort of fun environment for him. And we don't I definitely don't just run away from the whole family to go and do music. It's just, it's just here, you know, Dad's up here at the schoolhouse, and the kids will come up here and, and you know, they'll ride their bikes around in here and have a bit of fun as well. So yeah, definitely they're very much included Can you see do you find now have with the kids in your life, that the way that you write your music has changed at all yet, like the like you see the world a bit differently? Maybe anything like that? Yeah, 100% I'd say. Because my music is, you know, electronic and different. I'm just sort of really trying to create a vibe, as much for like the, the kids and stuff, it definitely hasn't really changed my sort of style as much. Yeah, the only thing that that really has changed is that just not being able to have that flexibility time to you know, just just go and you will just have more time without having the kids and stuff like that you would just end up having a lot more time up yet up your sleeve to sit down and really concentrate on something, and you just win now doing music, you sorta have got to be in the right mindset, or else you just don't get it down. And if you're not, if it just doesn't flow, it, you're wasting your time. So yeah, I will, I'll come up and play around with tracks like that. And it's just not working. It's just definitely it's not working. So you just stop and you'll come back another time, but it's it having children and music, you just got to really make time for your passion, I think. And yes, to having having children and stuff like that. It's, it's yeah, it's a great thing. And it's been awesome, but there's definitely challenges involved. And I think if I had children a lot, like, like, I'm I'm 40 Now, if I had them when I was younger, I don't think I would have coped as well that's one thing I don't really want. I'm glad I had children when I was older. I'm pretty like I think I'm very selfish myself sometimes like not now, but I was would have been when I was younger, a lot more selfish er and wanted to sort of achieve more. Now I've got that mindset that I've just don't don't really care anymore. Like I just want to have fun. So but um, but now, you know being a bit older and stuff like that. I'm just a lot more chilled and just don't really care. And just like I said, I think for myself if I just have music as a as a passion and a hobby. It breaks down those walls. It's just like, you know, if you achieve something, it's great, but you're not really focused on, you've got it, oh, I've got to make the charts or I've got to sell music or anything like that. If people want to listen to it, that's fantastic. And it's awesome. And if you wanted to get shows, that's great. But if you really focused on that, and it doesn't happen, it just breaks your heart all the time. And you just end up burying yourself, I think you just want to, I just want to put stuff out there that I'm really proud of. And, you know, when I released my last album, I had had a lot of messages of people saying, Oh, my God, that song was just amazing, or that was so great. And that's what it comes down to. For me, it's like, just those moments where people say to that, so I think it's really big. Shout out to people that, you know, tell that artists that you really liked their music, it makes a difference to people like it makes people be more productive. And they want to actually, you know, they want to keep pursuing their dreams. And I think today's age to like, with artists, where where artists and musicians and everything has gone through the whole COVID thing. You know, they need you more than ever right now. People really need to stand up and say, hey, you know what, I'm gonna buy that CD. I love that tune. Keep doing what you're doing. And you know, stay positive, because it only takes one person to say oh, you know your musics crap. And you know, you suck, all of a sudden, that person just shuts down and then they don't want to do it anymore. So you know, as long as you know, since I've been doing music, I haven't even had one person say you, you suck or your shit. It's just like, everything in the music scene I think is so positive. But we're just going through such a short time with COVID that no guy out there's work and the poor old industry, music is industry is suffering. The venue's are dying up. They need you more than ever, right now. People, people like myself, anyone out there who's putting music together still is they need you. So, you know, the people out there listening and buying records, you know, they're awesome. That's what we, we do it for. So, you know, yeah. That's so well said. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think big Yeah, because we can't say, the audience face to face because we can't make those, you know, personal connections, it is important for people, if, you know, if you like someone's music, send them a message. And, you know, it's just that little, that little bit of connection. It's just enough to brighten someone up and and keep them go. And like you said, it's, it's that spark that gets them going. So, yeah. And it's nothing is it so it's not, I like appreciate so many different styles of music, like I listened to, you know, so much different styles. And even if it's not the general the genre that you listen to, you know, just just let them know that that piece of music that was awesome, you did an awesome job on that, you know, your vocal was fantastic on that. Just just let them know. I think it's like, that's the most positive thing I think with the with the music scene, other artists get behind other artists, even if you got a small majority of fans out there and you know, I don't consider myself having many fans at all but the small group that have that I have around me that they definitely don't shy away with saying hey, that's that tunes. Awesome, great job that's a that's a sweet tune keep getting maybe keep doing that sort of style it's a love it so that's and that's what gives me a bit of momentum and stuff and just just to have a bit of fun with it too. So yeah, but it's definitely a struggle out there and if you know if someone was doing this job at the moment full time and and you know looking for those gigs every weekend I really feel for those people at the moment I you know, it breaks my heart to to see how the music industry is going to recover from this because I know a lot of artists I know that they're artists Charlotte lock the, the girl that featured on my album, she she ended up going back to work at a big company and I murder messaged not long ago and I said you know how's how's the music going? And she was like, there's no time you know, I've got to get back to work and there's no no gigs. So and she you know, I couldn't never think of this girl not seeing again because of voice is so amazing. And it just broke my heart to hear that. You know this girl can't get any more gigs and she's had to go back to the office and start working again and slaving away to the man you know. You mentioned briefly before Lacey your wife She must be very supportive of of what you're doing and helped me a lot. She's very supportive she that she loves that she loves being involved. She's, you know, probably my biggest fan I every track that I do or take part in in any small way. She's probably the first person who gets it is on that track. So I give it to her and, and she'll listen and I'll say, What do you think of this? And you know, what do you think of this? And she'll be like, oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love this bit. And so that yeah, gives we sort of feed off each other a lot. And, yeah, it's great to have somebody supportive that by your side, or that, you know, is prepared to sit up all night while you're at three o'clock in the morning, you know, bouncing ideas off somebody overseas about some track that's getting mastered at, you know, some ungodly hour or, you know, me waking up in the middle of night Khan Hawk got such a great idea for a video clip. So, she, yeah, she's really great and very supportive. And yeah, yeah, I love her a lot. Yeah, and she got got a little bit of a go in the video as well. The music video. Yeah, she was up there dancing with flat chi. And it was quite funny. She said, I'll go out with death, which I said yeah, get out there and have a dead so yeah, it was good. Mid so I loved the little little jacket that he had onto. Yeah, he's gonna wear that and all that all the film clips. We've decided he loves his he loves that jacket. He calls it his DJ check jacket. So he really thinks it's really cool. So yeah. What have you got on at the moment or anything coming up that you want to share? I've got one track that I'm working on at the moment. I've just, I've got another girl that's just doing some vocals for me for this track. It's, it's called creatures. When you've heard lately, it's like I really wanted to make something that was sort of like, really on that that preset vibe that really pumped up sort of idea. And just it didn't really have to mean anything. It was just sort of a like really pumped up track. Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So I just sort of had that mastered. But it's come back and I'm Why can't I just need something else to sort of give it a bit of an edge. So I thought I'll try it with a female vocals. I'm just waiting for those vocals to come back. And I'll put in the track. And yeah, see how that turns out. Let me lose a happy move. I don't know what to do. Everything about my situation is a win or lose. I know the feeling of people when they go donate bags. I made a choice to ignore my Molly, Jason bash, what is exactly when I listen to a couple of the podcasts before? And he the people what they were saying about you know, and you know that they have music and then that was on the back burner because they've got so much time. It's what happens. I think when you have a family, it's like so much gets put on the backburner though, doesn't it? It's like, it's incredible, that, you know, you've got all this, all this passion and all this art that you want to get out there and want to push out into the world. And all of a sudden, you can't because you're locked down with their, with your family and doing you're doing the stuff that's, that's, that's important to them. And then all of a sudden, you can't you can't get it out. And then it's sort of built up, it really is built up, especially if they're, if they're, if it's a person that's putting out stuff constantly, and has a family and all of a sudden that sort of just kind of it's it's hard it's just about expressing yourself, I think and as long as people can keep getting it out there. That's the main thing. And you know, I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids and you'd seem to be putting everything into the children I know from seeing it firsthand through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and and your wonder like now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more at nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about and she loves so we make time to fit her you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life things but it's that's the thing is it's like you know when When if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion and you've got nowhere to you know to do it it builds up and you know probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage or anything like that because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with your children and just having this dull life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you if it doesn't have you don't have an outlet much for coming on today. Like it's been great to chat and all the best with whatever you've got coming up soon. I can't wait to hear some new tracks for me. No worries. Thanks, Alison. I really appreciate coming on the podcast and yeah, I wish you all the success for it. It's sounds fantastic so far, and yeah, it was he could be keep going with it in the future and it keeps coming out and bringing positive messages with it.

Holly Norman Australian professional musician + wellbeing practitioner S3 Ep81 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a musician and wellness pracitioner from Perth WA and a mum of 1. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to big band jazz records at home, and early on she was listening regularly to classic swing and big band – Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11, a self confessed, late starter Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed-in-the-wool classical percussionist and back then you couldn’t have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid-twenties, Holly realised that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her, if she moved over to drums. As a musician Holly has worked with the likes of The Cat Empire. Ash Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra Symphony Orchestras. She released her own EP of original songs in 2013 called Hollypop , recently released a single called It's Only Weather in late 2022, and has a new song out now, called Isolation , written about the covid-19 lockdown periods experienced over the past couple of years. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager, working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz festival, Perth PRIDE Parade, and Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's also a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional/postural support to play their instrument, so Holly developed the Yoga for Drummers session. She is really passionate about keeping musicians safe and ensuring longevity in the industry. This episode contains discussion around miscarriage and loss. Connect with Holly - instagram / website / facebook Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Holly's music is used throughout today's episode, with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoy honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode of the podcast is a pleasure to welcome you from wherever you are in the world. Whether this is your first episode, or your at first, thank you so much for being along for the ride. I've just come back from a week away with the family in a city called Ballarat, which is about three hours away from where I live here, Matt, Gambia. It's over in Victoria and it was lovely to be out of my own space somewhere completely different enjoying the sunshine, swimming, being a tourist and sightseeing and spending a lot of time with the family. Although the car trips with the two boys in the back, were always a bit of fun and the huge pile of washing that we've accumulated. Now that we're home is also great. I'm sure many of you can relate. But nevertheless, today I'm very excited to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a percussionist a singer, a songwriter and musician from Perth in Western Australia, and she's a mom of one. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to Big Band jazz records at home. And early on, Holly was listening regularly to classic swing and big bands such as Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, and Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11. A self confessed late starter, Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed in the wool classical percussionist, and back then you couldn't have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid 20s. Holly realized that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her if she moved over to the drums. So that's what she did. As a musician, Holly has worked with the likes of the cat empire, Ash, Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra symphony orchestras. Holly's also released in a piece of her own work, entitled Holly pop, which is available through Bandcamp. And you can find that through the link in the show notes. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz Festival, the Perth Pride Parade and the Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness, practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's now a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional and postural support to play the instrument. So Holly developed the yoga for drummers sessions, which can be found via the link in the show notes. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and loss. The music you'll hear on today's episode is from Holly herself. There's a little bit of holly solo on her piano self accompanied and with her behind the drum set for her jazz quartet. Thanks again for tuning in. It's a pleasure to be with you and I hope you enjoy my chat with Holly. name is Deanna Manzi. Season seems to be thanks so much for coming on today, Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks you for having me. Yeah, it's a real pleasure. So we were just chatting before we hit record that you're in Perth and the massive time difference between Perth and the rest of Australia. So it's 12 o'clock here. What time? Is it over there? It's 9:30am. Yes, it's a three hour time difference in summer. Yeah, that's yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. We just got back from Canberra a couple of days ago. So my husband's family lives there. So we spent Christmas there. And yeah, luckily, it actually didn't hit us too hard with the sort of body clock adjustment for my daughter who's two and a half. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting it to be more of a pain. But as soon as she got back in bed, she just has slept like a dream. So that's really nice, actually. Yeah, yeah, that's a consideration because I don't like you were saying you don't have daylight savings there. But whenever the clocks change here, like there's this whole big Yeah. How do we manage daylight savings with the calculator? Yeah. I mean, we we had our daughter in Melbourne. So the first 18 months of her life, we were there. So yeah, we did have to do a little bit of that when she was still a baby and napping. And I remember trying to adjust to like, how do you get them to think it's an hour later or an hour earlier? Like starting the naps? Like 15 minute increments like Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny. And the other kids just they just click into it. Like, you know, like, I don't know, just bizarre like, because I've got two kids and they're just completely different. So yeah, you just never know what's gonna happen to Yeah, totally Divi? You're a musician, you do some other things, too. But is musician, your first sort of passion, your first love? Yeah, it definitely is my first love. It's interesting, the whole kind of, I guess the topic of like, how you identify yourself, because I haven't made I haven't tried to make my living from playing music for a really long time. And that was sort of a deliberate choice. I had a day job. For the last, I want to say 10 years as a event producer and arts manager. So I sort of did that as like a nine to five. But yeah, the music part has always been there. Since I was in high school, really, it's, I would say it's like the great love of my life, for sure still is even more so now. Like coming out of the pandemic and and rediscovering music and what it means to me. Yes, definitely the main thing. Yeah. Do you remember how you first got into music? Yeah, it's funny. I was actually talking to someone about this yesterday, we're talking about Disney movies, because my daughter has just entered like the frozen phase that phase. I reckon Disney is like the reason that I'm I took out music. I loved the way that it could merge narrative with musical form. That and yeah, when I went to high school, I went to a school that was some specialists music. So we did a lot, a lot of music there. And when I arrived, I was sort of felt like I was a little bit behind the other kids because there were lots of lots of families and lots of children that came from these big like classical music sort of dynasty families and had been listening to records and like knew all this repertoire. And I didn't really have that kind of an upbringing. Like I there was lots of music played in our family home for sure. Like I was brought up on, you know, all of the sort of classics, but nothing classical music. So when I went into that style of studying and that sort of foundation of learning music. I used to take myself into the State Library actually on a Saturday morning is such a nerd and like listen to record of like, you know, Beethoven and yeah symphonies to try to catch up on all of the learning that I felt like I'd missed. I was Yeah, I was just really obsessed by that the sort of properties of music telling a story and Star Wars and big scores. Stuff that I just loved it like the kind of majesty of it all. Yeah, when you say about Star Wars, I've got I keep like things that inspire me. Because I just love here you can hear a Tiny Toon and relate that to a character and relate that to a whole storyline. And then you just taken into this whole world, like, I just find that so amazing. I just love that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. My first instrument was actually the flute, and I was the world's worst flute player. So when I was a child, you could have opened a can with my face like I had such a pronounced Overbite that I had I had a full Year flute lessons with a very, very patient, lovely woman, who at the end of the year took my mother aside and politely said, Holly has musical aptitude. But I think it's best if she were to play an instrument that doesn't require her mouth, as you know, as an ombre. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't make a sound after a full year of lessons. And that flute teacher specifically said, for some reason, take her to have have lessons with this teacher who teaches play percussion. So yeah, that was the instrument because you know, you just hit it. So you don't need big lungs. You don't need an Ambusher you don't need to use your mouth. She was obviously thinking that I was rubbish at all of those things. Right, yeah. Yeah, like, I guess that's like, the instruments sort of found me by like being disqualified from other instruments that I yeah, I just, I really fell in love with it. It's it's quite physical, I suppose percussion, which I enjoyed this, like, you know, striking the instrument. And the variety of it really appealed to me. So I'm, I'm a sort of being multi passionate is a pretty core facet of my personality. So with percussion, you know, we never really had to choose one instrument like you can have you play snare drum, xylophone, vibraphone, bass drum crash cymbals timpani? Like you get to play everything at the back of the orchestra. And that that really appealed to me, I think, being able to sort of jump from one thing to the other. Yeah, and keep keep things interesting to like, totally not just sitting on the same instrument they have today. Yeah. And I think also another another big thing that I got from that those early years sitting at the back of the orchestra is that, you know, percussionist, they don't play for most of the time. You know, it's like an icing on the cake philosophy, you really are there for like the one or 2% of you know, the moments where the music becomes really exciting, or, you know, that sort of skill of just listening, I think is something that's really carried through to my adult years into the musician that I became because yeah, it's just a lot of listening to other people play. Yeah. And yeah, trying to fulfill that that role. Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like when when something interesting is happening in the music, whether like you said, it's really big or something really small, like, whether it's like the xylophone or one of those twinkly, chime things that we like, it's really something interesting is happening. I've actually always wanted like, because I'm a musician myself. But I I've always wondered like when I've seen orchestras play, like the person at the back on the, on the percussion, like they're waiting for their turn. Yes, like, a long time. 4550 minutes? Do you sort of, do you have to read the music the whole time to know where you are? Like, do you ever get scared, you're gonna get lost, like key comes up? And you're like, Oh, is it my turn? Like, do you ever get that? Or is it? I mean, I suppose it would, for someone who's just stepped into it, you'd be like panicking. But I guess because you've rehearsed it that many times. But have you ever had that moment? Where you go? Oh, I'm coming up now. But I'm not exactly sure where it is. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, look, it's I guess, being generally when you have a long period of rest. You know, you get you get to know what what's happening in that gap. So yeah, you usually no and like, that's why when I said I used to go to the library and listen to records, I just used to kind of like rote learn an entire piece of music and just listen to it a lot. Again, I was such a nerd. I had like, I stayed at home when I had braces for about two and a half years and I had no social confidence as a team. So I used to put on I used to play Playstation, but I turned down the game volume and put on like Gershwin and just memorize memorize the whole thing. But yeah, generally, but by the time that I got to playing that sort of stuff, I usually knew where I was. But having said that, I fallen asleep on the stage of the Perth concert hall. And very, very nearly missed an entry. Because I'm have a weird like, borderline it's not narcolepsy. It's not narcolepsy, but when I'm seated I can lose consciousness pretty easily if I'm not doing something so I often like will sleep in a meeting in class in school our sleep chronically is it's horrible. I slept in jury duty. Oh, so yeah, onstage just with a really really long time of rest. It doesn't I was sitting there like in my full concert blacks people in the class who was behind me peering over my shoulder and yeah, basically passed out and very, very nearly missed an entry. Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh my god. That's a nightmare. Yeah, it's not a great feeling. Oh my goodness. So you can play a few different instruments. What else can you play? Ah, so play a little bit of ukulele definitely not wizard at it. And I play a bit of piano. So I'm just self taught on piano and keys as well. I write most of my own songs on the keyboard, that's sort of the median that I prefer. Yeah, I would have loved to have probably been more competent on piano. But it just wasn't I sort of had quite a late start with music. Like I only started playing percussion when I was about 11. So it wasn't something that I ever really did as a kid, a younger child. But yeah, I would I play mostly drumset now, like, you know, after all that talk about like, playing in orchestras and playing percussion, I probably defined myself more now as as a drummer. That was a transition that happened in my 20s. And I sort of started to, yeah, just relate more to the kind of musical styles and, and settings that I could play in just on drum set, which is mostly jazz. So yeah, I would say mostly drummer percussionist, I sing as well, again, I would never, I would never say I'm the singer. I think I sing my own songs. I like seeing a bit of backing vocals. But I've definitely I can't belt would never get up and do a covers gig. It's just not how I sort of identify. So when you say you write, like you're writing in the jazz style, is that the sort of songs you write? Oh, gosh, not necessarily. I'm a bit of a folky at heart. Really? Yeah. So I would say singer songwriter, folk pop is sort of the main style that I write in. But then, since I've been playing more drums, i Something I've always sort of struggled with creatively is like finding the right performance context of what what instrument am I actually going to play. Because I drums is my first instrument, but you can't really accompany yourself as a soloist, if you're playing drums. So the band that I play with now over here, I play drums, and I sing from behind the drum set, it's my compositions, but then they'd been rearranged and like more of a jazz style, and I've got a bass player, a keyboard player and a saxophone player. So yeah, really, it just depends on the context, I suppose. Like, I did a house concert in December. And that was lovely, because I was just playing solo, piano bit of ukulele. And that was like, very intimate. So yeah, that's not something that I do very often. And I felt pretty bad. Because the morning after that house concert, I woke up with COVID and then had given COVID to six people at a house concerts. I felt horrific about it. But yeah, that's I guess it just depends on the context. Really? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Cool. And you also you talked a bit before about your arts and event project management that you've sort of in the day job? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. And what you do with that? Yeah, so I've actually I've sort of recently, I'm in the middle of a bit of a career transition at the moment. So I've done like arts management as my sort of day job yet for, like I said, about 10 years, I got into it, because I think a lot of musicians once you know, I went to uni for music, so I went to work. And like a lot of sort of tertiary educated musicians, if you want to make a living from music, he often ended up doing a lot of teaching. So I came out of uni, and I started doing quite a lot of instrumental teaching. And I just felt like it wasn't really the right fit for me. And I felt quite strongly that if you're going to be in that position of, you know, influencing a child's relationship with music, that you should really care about being there. And it wasn't that I didn't like teaching, I actually really enjoyed it. And I still, I'd still be open to some teaching. But I feel like the framework of a school and the way that instrumental music was taught in schools because it just didn't really resonate with how I wanted to teach and how I felt like kids should be connecting with music. So I was looking for something else to do, I suppose that could make money and be sort of crossed. And yeah, I always liked being really organized. And I liked making things happen. And I yeah, just sort of fell into it. Like I started working with you, the youth orchestra here. And when I'm working with, started working with arts organizations, and then sort of went into festivals and just climbed up from sort of smaller roles to working as a producer and a programmer. A lot of that was when I was in Melbourne, I really focused on that sort of festival work and like working on the national festival circuit. It's yeah, it's a chapter of my life that I would probably consider is coming to a slate and because I'm studying counseling now, so I'm halfway through a Master's in Counseling. And yeah, I guess like just you know, during the pandemic and watching the way that the Australian arts community was placed it festival work is it can really yet chew you up and spit you out. It's long hours. Not necessarily super family friendly. So I was sort of looking for a way to transition out of that work, but Yeah, making that decision, which was only about six months ago, it was a really, really tough choice. Like, it's hard to step away from something that you really do love, and I still love it. Like, you know, it's incredible work, you're working with people that just care so much, and making things happen. It really getting blood out of a stone, like working with almost next to no budget, which is difficult at times. And I think that was also part of the quandary for me, ethically, as someone, you know, in the music community, as well, as a performer, I thought, I'm finding myself in a situation where I'm often having to ask people for to do things for less than I feel they're worth. And that made me feel like, as someone that, you know, sort of has a presence where I often talk about well being and in the arts industry. I don't I just didn't want to feel like I was feeding into that problem, I suppose. People working for less than they're worth, because I do feel like that's part of the issue. Yeah, yeah. So I thought I was pulled back on that, for the time being focus on being a musician again, and focus on studying and working with people in in health plans to work on. Snap crack, with a smoker, Dini accident, good news, to make the gazal disappear. But there's some things you should consider. Rebel. I'm glad you raised that issue about the pandemic and how the arts were perceived and how they were treated. And if any regular listeners will know, they'll hit they've heard this before. I just get so cross and so angry about how the sport kept going, like, yeah, exactly. Players were moving the country, all these bubbles and whatever. Like all everything else that, you know, it was like, that's the only thing of value because that brings in the most money, you know, yeah. And I just, I just kept saying to people, but everyone's sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, who do you think made it made all the stuff, you know, the arts created all of it. And everyone, it was just really made me so mad. And it still makes me mad. And yeah, and then thing to even before that happened, like I've been a performer, just in my, my town here for, you know, I don't know, I'm 44. Now, it's been a long time. And the attitude towards performers is like, they expect you to do stuff for nothing. And this whole thing of Oh, it's great exposure. And it's like, the amount of times I've heard that bullshit. And I've gotten better as, as I've gotten older, just to say no, sorry, if you're not going to pay me this such whatever this amount is, I'm sorry, I can't do it. You know, and it's, it makes me so cross and then so they'll just, they won't change anything, because they'll just go get the next young kid who's just a geek and just take advantage of them. Yeah, that whole thing just makes me really mad. It's so hard. And I mean, I think, for me, my boundaries have always been like, fairly strong, because I had worked on the other side of the fence, and I understood how much budget organizations usually did have to allocate, which is not heaps, but you know, if you are worrying about, you know, quoting 200 bucks versus 500, like, just quote 500, because they can usually afford to pay it like, I guess I had a level of insight from working on the other side of like managing projects for organizations, but I think being a mum becoming a parent is the ultimate like line in the sand of really having to learn, you know, it's not only that the financial value of an opportunity, but like the energy value of an opportunity and like, What's it costing your family and your household for you to be out of the house for six hours. And for them to not be food in the fridge or to not get any of the other stuff done that you need to get done. But yeah, having said that, I'd certainly don't get it right all the time. And it's, I mean, I've only been really, I've only had to be a parent and be in the regular world for less than 12 months because Matilda was born in April of 2020. So you know, most of her life was in the Melbourne lockdowns, which were some of the toughest and we didn't have a regular life at all until we came to WA and then very abruptly had this like pre pandemic existence, which was like difficult to stomach. Yeah, time. Such a huge culture shock from the way that we have been living so yeah, just even like balancing a social life with work and study and gigs. And having a kid that's only I would say, I've only been I've only had a year of experience even though she's two and a half. Yeah, so what took you to Western Australia? Yeah, so I was born here, and I live most of my life here. I love it over here. I've always been a big advocate and like very proud for the arts community. There's some great people over here, even though it is very isolated from the rest of the world and the rest of the country. And then I'd moved. What year was it? 20 End of 2015. I think I met my now husband. And he had been living in the US studying over there, he'd moved back to Australia. And He's based in Sydney, He then moved to Melbourne, we basically met, we went on one day, and we started, we were like, Let's have a long distance relationship. Then I moved up to Darwin. So I left and went up to Darwin for a festival contract. And then after that, I moved to Melbourne and we were there for about six years together. But yeah, it was, it wasn't the plan to move to Perth. When we did I think that was one of those, you know, sort of sliding doors scenarios that so many families experienced during the pandemic, it was, I think, the hard border with WA, I got to a point where it was causing me I would say, real trauma to not be able to come in. We tried five times to get in I had pretty severe postnatal depression after my daughter was born. It was yeah, it was just a horrible feeling, really, to have everyone over here. And I feel a really strong connection to the to the land over here and like to country, and it was just just knowing that it was something that was prohibited and, and a lot of the attitudes that I felt were being displayed towards us as being like, dirty Victorians and like don't come in and like there was this total xenophobia that was Yeah, revolting. Yeah, I've seen I've seen, I would say, I've seen a side of who that I can say. And, yeah, it's been like a bit of a rocky road to rebuilding that relationship with somewhere that I always loved and said was my home before that? Yeah, I think we basically just got to a point where we didn't have any family in Melbourne. So my husband, like I said, was from Canberra, my family's here in Perth. You know, Melbourne at the time, during COVID, it wasn't what it had been. And we were sort of looking at each other saying, you know, how long will it take for it to rebuild to what it was in terms of the the art space? And I think we just wanted some way that we could live with more family support. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was just so wild. It was we made that decision so quickly. Really, when I look back on it, it's, I often reflect that it's kind of remarkable that we made a good decision in in the place that we were mentally like we were, we were in survival mode, big time. Yeah, when we got here, it was just like having a lot of panic attacks. And really, it all just had to come out at some point. Like, it was tough over there that start part. Yeah. But yes, I think it has been the right choice for sure. And my husband as well was in the military band, he's he's a saxophone player. So he was playing in the Air Force Band. When we lived in Melbourne, which sort of that was like the equivalent, I suppose, is like doing a full time nine to five. So it was like, relatively secure, but he didn't have heaps of freedom outside of that job to pursue other creative stuff. So I think now that we're here, we're sort of, we've regained a balance of being both a portion freelance, you know, and a portion teaching or doing other work and for me study, so it feels like a better balance for us to both have that flexibility. And that's something that we're only really able to do because we've got the family support with a young child. Yeah, no, I did. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? How much difference it makes when you've got that, that support? When you were saying before about this dirty Victorian mentality, where I leave, my town is Matt, Gambia. We're about 20 minutes from the border. To Tory and the amount of abuse that Victorians cops like people would go home like I worked with a there was a because you had to have all these permits to cross the border. For anyone that doesn't know it was pretty full on. So people that there was a lady that I worked with who was Victorian and she said she would cop abuse people would see her number plate in the car pocket coals and we're just abused get out of here and falling over your fires like it was just disgusting. And they're people who are part of our community basically, you know, they work here horrible been their money here, but then they happen to live in a little tiny little, like, basically a rural little thing just over the border. And yeah, it was really horrible. It was horrible. Because, yeah, like you said, this whole new side of people the way people ostracizing people. Totally, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard to think back on it like a lot of I feel like I sort of just blank a lot of it out. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, who obviously had the, you know, proudly the world's hardest border. He built the one didn't you know, I can You kind of laugh about it now, but like this, like my heart's like Slack, silently clenching. Still, as we talk about it like, it's still it's totally still hard to think about. Yeah. But you know, having said that, when we got here, I did understand, I suppose, from the side of people that were here, why they were pleased, in a way to have that protection because they were, you know, artists were able to live relatively unencumbered. Like they didn't have to shut down in the same way that you know, certainly that that Melbourne did so. Yeah, I do get it. But yeah, it's just, it's just a whole chapter of life that I'm so glad is over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Finding my guys when I thought about it, so you're also into the wellness side of things you do yoga? And I guess that's where you counseling sort of coming in to thing? Yeah, yeah. You've been practicing yoga for a long time. Yeah, I have. I want to say I sort of got into it. Like a lot of, you know, yoga, people got into it, just for exercise. That was when I was in my early 20s. And I remember going to classes and that the teacher would spend ages and the breathing and I'd mentally have this dialogue of like, Can you hurry up and get to the fast paced stuff, like get to the poses, I'm here to you know, get a workout on and it's so funny now, because as a teacher, now, I'm a yoga teacher. And, you know, after what 15 years of practicing is, the breathing is my favorite part. And I would have happily spend two hours in one shape like I don't, I'm not in a hurry, the way that I my home practice has completely changed. You know, I love a slow Hathor as opposed to like a fast vinyasa with a million Chaturanga is, but yeah, it was sort of something that I got into it. And I've never done any real movement training, I'd never did dance or anything like that. But I, when I was at uni, I had a bit of like, RSI, and performance injuries, you know, stemming from how many hours of practice I was doing when I was first studying. So I started going to Pilates. And that was helpful to understand, I suppose my physicality and like how my muscles worked. And, you know, being a relatively petite female and playing an instrument that's traditionally made for, you know, German men like classical percussion. It was yeah, it was just helpful to understand how to support my body and what what sort of strength I needed to build in sort of muscles and that sort of thing. Yeah, so I sort of just started and then kept going, and I did something called Yoga for drummers a few years ago, which had sort of like to start getting that going again. So I had a YouTube class and I did a few workshops as well, you know, drummers pit like all musicians, I would say, not hugely on top of looking after their health in on any level. But you know, it's just, it's easy to injure yourself. And I've met so many musicians in their sort of later years, like, you know, 50s, who say, ah, you know, I wrecked my hearing, and I'd never write what earplugs and I've got chronic back pain. And it's like, all of that stuff can actually be really easily prevented. And I think we're starting to get a handle now. You know, sort of globally and in terms of the Australian arts community, I think there is more of a narrative of like prevention is better than cure, you know, trying to give resources to younger people coming into the industry in terms of how do you look after yourself when you're out on the road? How do you eat well, when you're touring? How do you combat this industry that you know, by and large is so unregulated and requires you to work incredibly long hours and usually unwind with, you know, alcohol or drugs? Healthy Choices are the first ones that you reach for on the shelf, I suppose. But for me, I was never somebody that I've always liked to have a good night's sleep. I'm a total Nana, like, even before I love to happy becoming a monk because I was like, finally, I feel like I'm validated in this choice. Like, people aren't gonna hang shit on me for like wanting to go to bed early because I've got to get up early for the child but but I was doing that before I was a mum. Yeah, so yeah, I guess like, you know, just wanting to feel good and and also, you know, with my own mental health, you know, yoga and well being has been a massive tool and like essential, I think for for managing my own mental well being. So yeah, it's just been really helpful. And I think the more people that I've talked to about it now, I think there's more and more museums and artists that are like happy to have those conversations and say like, I really struggle with this or I use this and You know, barefoot running like people are into all sorts of things. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you've got something that works for you. And it's just, it's just trial and error. Yeah, yeah, that whole sort of culture of, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll soda. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like drinking, you know, their boots and going. On they got Hell yeah. A little bit funny. It's good. I've practiced yoga for a long time, as well. And I find nowadays, I just, I just, I do a lot of yoga. I just have been in the photos and breathing. And yeah, I just don't have the energy for anything else. Like, my whole life is so busy and doing. So when I go to uni, I'm just like, ah, like, just just chill out. Yeah, it's so different. I sold my husband on yoga, the only way I could get into a greater guy was to explain that it's basically lying on the floor with a blanket for 75 minutes. Sounds like you can wear your pjs like, you will be in a flat position. Yeah, it's very chill. Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like now like, because I used to also work in the fitness industry. So it was, it was all about what your looks like, and what the latest fashion was on the chain and all these whatever's. And now I just literally will wear my DAG is trackies. And I don't care, like if I've got an old jumper or whatever, because then I'm not going upside down. So I don't have to worry about you know, things coming up. And it's like, it's totally changed. And yeah, it's, and there's actually this guy now that does classes, just with breathing. All he does is breathing. And so this is amazing that he's actually guy went to school with that it'd be the last face at the world. We have a you know, a revelation and come come to that sort of sort of living. But yeah, it's wonderful. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was naming. I think during the early stages of the pandemic, I remember that first lock down that everyone did like the sort of month long one, the very, you know, March or April 2020 whenever it was, and I remember all of my musician, friends, because we everyone had got job keeper. So no one was worried about making ends meet because they were getting paid to stay home or not work. i The overwhelming rhetoric coming out of every single person that I knew was I am so relieved to have this time off like people were just yeah, you know, and obviously, it got worse. And it got more complicated. And people wanted to go to back to work after that. And they couldn't. But yeah, I remember that strike, it was just like this exhale of like, wow, we're just on this hamster wheel 24/7. And just not only being able to not work and not have things in the calendar, but giving yourself the permission to not have to be constantly practicing and hustling and looking for the next thing. I remember thinking like, wow, we're going to learn so much from this. And then if I look at myself and the people around me, I think that we've struggled to implement those lessons on top. Certainly, I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, coming back, and then you've got to make hay while the sun shines, right. Like that's, that's it? Yeah. As soon as we had the opportunity to make money and to rebuild profile, and to get those opportunities, sort of, you know, rolling again, we all sort of had to do that. And that's unfortunately, how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's been a return to balance really, because I think we're all being sold to that society was ready to open up and everyone, everyone wanted to get out. And everyone wanted to do things. It's like, yeah, oh, we have to be there on the other side of that to meet these people. You know, so there wasn't this. Yeah. Like, I can relate to that completely. I had, we had a we have a thing called the it's like the, it's not as big as the Adelaide Fringe Festival. We call it the Fringe Festival down here. Sorry. I hadn't mean. And I had two shows. And I because I was doing a show with my sister, which I wanted to do. And then I'd said yes to this other one without them thinking, Oh, I actually have to rehearse for this and promote this and organize this. Some reason all I had in my head was the geek just being on stage throwing up and do it. Yeah. And I just said, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so yeah, when they pulled the pin on it, I actually was so relieved. I thought, yeah, God for that, like all the pressure of rehearsal. Yeah. Balancing family life and everything and pushing it the promotion and all that sort of stuff was like, Oh, thank God, that's not happening. But yeah, as time went on, it became like, oh, okay, so yeah, everything's canceled now. And obviously, we weren't locked down. but people weren't doing anything. No one was taking bookings. And I was encouraging groups of people and you couldn't dance. There's no dance. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what, but yeah. And I said to myself, I'll just remember this time how good it is. And then you forget, but now I've really pulled back from gigs since then, like I've really, and, and I think, to just looking at, you know, my family life and the balance that we have, like you said about before, we're talking about the monetary reward for doing a gig, you also have to look at, you know, the emotional strain and the physical titling. And I just also got sick of carrying my stuff around, like, just the thought of loading the car just made me do it. Like I complain constantly about being a drummer. I'm like, why? Worst life choice? I wouldn't change it. But yeah, totally. It's, I for me to say yes to things. Usually, there has to be a house kit like that. It has to be a gig I really, really want to do if I have to be wiring my own stuff. Because, you know, maybe our sport when I was in Melbourne, and there are lots of house kits and venues but yeah, I'm just that it has to be the this the path of least resistance. Yes. This is my philosophy for taking on new things. Yeah, I and I do a lot of like, you know, guest lecturing and stuff in unis with music students, and you know, younger people coming into the industry. And I always one thing I always say as a piece of advice is like, if someone asks you to do something, before you say yes, just pause, pause. Because once that yes is out there, you can't retract it. Yeah. And like you've probably said yes, without really understanding the true scope of, of what's within that opportunity, you know, because like, you probably just gonna get a text that says, hey, free on June 16, for a gig and of text. We need we need a little bit more detail here. Like, you know what time? What's the soundcheck? What's the repertoire? How many hours do I need to commit to learning this material? Do I need to bring my own key out? What will I wear? What's the fee? Like? You really you need to I always say that you should reply with a big laundry list of questions. And you know, really, like put them on the back foot like this is a way that everyone in this industry, I think can be trying to educate each other as to what's an acceptable working environment. Because like you said before, there's so many young people, unfortunately, he'll just jump at the chance to do something for exposure. And like I'm not saying that doesn't have a place it does. For a very, very limited time in your early Korea. But it's I think the way that we fall over is like, oh, when is the point when you transition out of that? And who tells you when to transition out of it. Unfortunately, there's no one else standing there being like, Okay, it's time to do this now. You know, we found that coming back to Perth, I think that's why my husband and I were both completely run ragged at the end of what's today's the second of January. So the end of last year, we you know, transition back, we packed up our house in Melbourne on four days notice to be able to get into wa so like when I say it was quick, it was quick. You know, we really just had to hit the ground running, readjust to living here readjust to living in a pre pandemic society drop all of our trauma or somehow like hardly process it. Yeah. And then like, start getting back into the music community and be like, Hey, we're here. We want to work. You know, that was massive transition, like you know, starting again in a new city is just the same I think as as starting your career. When Yeah, yeah. It's like that process of having a duel that networking and stuff again. That's yeah, took a toll for sure. I think it's good to have that first 12 months back in Perth, like under the belt now, even though it was from here. I hadn't been here for a long time. And he hadn't been here at all. So yeah, it's like basically starting afresh, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, that that was something I had. I'm not sure if you know, Georgia field. She's a Melbourne. Yeah, amazing. Yes, she is. She's amazing. I love Georgia. So she came on the podcast in its first season. And she sort of related the time she had off when she had her children to basically starting her career again, because you're going back into venues, there might be a different, you know, manager and they're like, oh, what we're going to bring, you know, yeah, yeah, it was that was really challenging for here. And yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that I was really lucky actually, when I had when I became a mother was that it wasn't like I disappeared from society because I was on this sort of mat leave and the rest of the world kept going, the whole world stopped. So it was actually there was like a bit of solidarity in that I was protected from that, I suppose unique isolation in that everyone was isolated. And everyone was sort of going through That existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, should I just start playing easy to become a data analyst? Everyone was going through that at the same time. So that was I would say that was one of the Silver Linings for sure. Some they were the last the sky seven days to slow down it's only when made outside your daughter's two and a half. Yeah. So what are your days look like now? Yeah, so we are she has been going to childcare she started pretty early. I think that was because I wanted I wanted to go back to work at the time in Melbourne, because we were in lockdown. And I, I was just really struggling, you know, with having no life. So we put her in, and she started going three days a week, and she's kept going three days a week, which has been really good. And she now goes to my mums as well like another sort of one or two days a week. So actually were extremely privileged and fortunate is basically what I'm trying to say and that we have close to five days a week of of care for her. Which means in those five days, my husband, I both pretty much just flat out working. I wouldn't say that we get a lot of time to practice, even though we have all of set with all of that care, like I'm studying as well. So my course load is sort of one to two days a week. And I work I work as a peer support worker now. For a business where we support people on NDIS for mental illness. So I work two to two and a half days a week. Then my course load, I would say is at least 20 to 30 hours a week. And then yeah, there's all this like practice that I'm allegedly doing, which I can tell you in full confidence that I just never do. And does she look after my daughter goes to bed at night? It's so funny. I often I'm like there's parents out there that keep going after their kid goes to bed base. I'm not one of them like that. That is the end of my day. Come 738 o'clock at night. I'm a vegetable. I am good at getting up early. Actually he is too because he was yeah, he's we're an early rising family, my daughter included. So I will usually we will set our alarms for about 430 or five and get up an hour before her. And that time. For me that's really, really integral time for sort of self care. And like I'll do my own yoga practice then and just like, yeah, just get a jump on the day, maybe go and make a quick list of what else I need to get done. And yeah, once she's awake, obviously, it's just like a long form negotiation and getting dressed and eating rice bubbles. You can leave the house and yeah, that's sort of the routine really weekends. I usually try to keep like the Saturday morning as a really quiet family time. Because you know, she's got a big week to like, yeah, being out of the house every day. So that's Yeah, even though the weekends is like, you know, it's it's work time, I reckon. Yeah. sandeels and I both probably work in some form or capacity. Seven days a week, we're chipping away at stuff, I would say seven days a week. We're using her nap time and like tag teaming on the weekends for sure. To get stuff done. But yeah, that Saturday morning is like sort of the Sacred Family time of yeah, just being really slow. And in our jammies. Yeah. Because that's the thing like, I don't know, I don't want to judge other people in the way they do things. But I could not be bothered rushing around on the weekends. Like I feel like we rushed around enough during the week and saying being respectful that your kids are rushing around to a time to to reset and readjust and decompress. And that sort of thing, too. It's like, like we've we've managed to avoid Saturday morning sport for nearly 15 years. Oh, wow. That's actually remarkable. Yes, it is. We've been very lucky. But now my youngest is started playing tennis. So it's like tennis. Is that safe anyway? Oh my god. What is this world? Yeah, I know. I mean, look, when I was a kid, I went to school on a Saturday morning for concert band. Oh, yeah. Right. So yeah, I had before school and after school every day. And then my parents would have to drive me on a Saturday morning to band wait in the car for three hours. Yeah, yeah. But I guess things are different then because you could trust your kids to go out and make their own way around a little bit more and like sort of get public transport. Like I don't know what it's like in that Gambia. But I think you know, when I sort of forecast what it's like to be the parent of a teenage girl which I will be I'm like, oh my god, it's things are gonna have to be so it's just so different to the way that my parents were so relaxed and bohemian with us. We were just doing our own thing. Like, you know, lucky, everything worked out fine. But yeah, we were on a pretty long leash. And I don't I, I just don't think you can parent that way. Probably. anymore with the same confidence, unfortunately, I wish to think about it all the time. Yeah. And yeah, the whole social media thing that's been that's a tricky one to navigate to, because we didn't grow up with that ourselves. And how do you sort of had an eye? It's a tricky one. That's that's one that's constant work in China, it's so hard, like, I'm really conscious of being on my phone in front of Matilda. And, you know, the more that she's going to see me on my phone, the more she's going to desire a phone as as cool thing to play with. So yeah, I do. Yeah, I tried to sort of be in the other room, if I have to, like send a quick text or, you know, get back to somebody. But it's also that thing, I suppose if just, if someone needs a response from me, and I'm with my child, they will they'll, they can just wait until, until I'm ready to respond to them. Like, I definitely don't feel that pressure to send someone an instant response. Like I think that there's enough. There's enough conversation and visibility around parenting and working for yourself now that I think we can all support each other to I've had other mums say to me, like, I can't get back to you right now. My kids like doing a poo in a park in the lawn. can relate? I don't even need to write that message like exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I think, yeah, in the same way, I feel like businesses because of the social media, and because they're on like, it's 24/7. People feel like they can send people messages anytime day or night. And because sometimes I'm so guilty in the morning, because I'm like, Hello, world. Yes, I feel like people have to be really strict with their boundaries. And then people have to respect that. It's like, oh, we're gonna do so yeah. Great. It's a whole new world, isn't it? We're learning to navigate together. I'm struggling to find a genie. And so you say about your working on the weekend? Do you ever feel like I like to talk to all my moms about this concept of mom guilt? And I hate the term. I wish it didn't exist, but I know it does. What does that mean to you? Or how do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly exists. And I think it's an almost inescapable phenomenon. Yeah, a couple are earlier last year now. 2022. So I went away to Tasmania for 10 days. And I did a a creative music intensive with the Australian Art orchestra, which, when I applied for, I mean, I started the year last year, like, I was still breastfeeding, like, I breastfed until she was just under two. And I just applied for it and thought, you know, what, if this is meant to happen, I'll get in, they'll give me a place, I'll rediscover what it was like to be a museum again, and like be a creative person, because I'm really deprioritize being a creative in my own right. That whole time, really, I'd say I was living in Melbourne, like I just really focused on festival work, and which is a different type of creative work and problem solving. But it's not writing and playing music. So that was a really, that was a really big thing, you know, going away for such a long time. And I'd waned her by then, but still, I remember right up until I got on the plane. I was like, I'm gonna turn around and go home. This is crazy. Like, who am I to take 10 days away from my child and to put that load on to my partner? And yeah, I did. I did have a lot of guilt for sure. About what, like I said before, what the cost of that was for everyone else. And you know, we're lucky that we have so much family support, so I really just didn't have to worry about her. She could not have cared less that I was gone. Definitely was harder for me. But yeah, I it was that was a big shift for me going on that trip. I'm so glad I did it like it was there was about 25 of us from around Australia and a couple of people came from overseas and we were in the central highlands of Tasmania, super remote, little village. It was just just out group each day. And one of the other producers from the orchestra who was sort of the operations manager He brought his partner and their young child down from Melbourne and their child was very similar age to my daughter. And I had this moment where we were watching a performance, which was a very, very moving performance of some Aboriginal singers and song makers from up in Arnhem Land. And I was sitting there watching and I was watching this mum play with her, bought her little boy, and I just my whole being just imploded into tears, like it was just like this catharsis of really profoundly missing my daughter. But at the same time, I was so grateful for being able to be there. But I think just realizing, really, really realizing in my core for the first time, that my whole identity was completely different. And that that person that I was watching, play with her child was me like, that was myself. And that was, yeah, I just sort of hadn't really realized it and looked at it from the outside. Like that until that moment. But yeah, the guilt that I had to sort of wade through, I think to take that time for myself was immense. Yeah, and yeah, there's always like people, and I feel like people make comments as well. You know, if you're, if you happen to be related to anyone who parented in a different generation, it's very hard to escape. Yeah. Other people's points of view. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is a thing. And I think that's probably for me why? Because I do, like I said, you know, I've got her almost in five days of care, which is a lot. So the time that I do spend with her, I want to be really, really present. And I think that's for me, I'm able to sort of put them on gear on the back burner, because I know that I am really present with that time. And nothing else is allowed to intrude into the time that we spend together. You know, like when she comes home at the end of the day we play we have a dance party like um, yeah, I feel like I'm a fairly present parent. Maybe I'm just telling myself that to obey the monkey. But yeah, I usually I wouldn't say that. My thoughts elsewhere when I'm with her, I suppose. Yeah. So after you went on that trip, was it then did you feel like I guess you talked about the realizing who your your identity had changed was that then when you came back? Did you then find it difficult to then have those two parts of your identity coexist? Was that a challenge then? Or was that really? Yeah? No, I haven't found it to be a challenge. I think, you know, what it's actually makes it a lot easier is the fact that I'm able to share music with my daughter. And it's such a huge, I can see in her that that's something that she loves. And I guess I'm quite fortunate. Like, I mean, for example, she wouldn't let she never let me Of course play my instrument at home. I'm not allowed to do any practice ever because toddlers are very self centered world to revolve around them. So if your attention is elsewhere that she and she's not like a wallflower about it. She's like a flaming volcano of rage about I'm not paying attention to her. So yeah, I was never able to even even like, you know, anecdotally play the ukulele and sing her song was not allowed. So I was thinking when I was in Tassie, I was like, what, what's the get around for this, because this is really pissing me off. And so I thought she's, she, she wants it to be about her. So I'll write her a song about her. Yeah, write this song about her, which I recently actually recorded. And I'm just gonna go on a release that I'm doing in a few months time. But that was, you know, one. So I was just looking for creative ways to bring her into the that world so that we could share it together because it's not going to look the same as when I wasn't a parent. And I could go into a room and sit down and have uninterrupted time working on songs or playing my instrument. I can only do that when she's not in the house. Or when she's in theory asleep, like it's getting that time is hard, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. So there's other ways that we can engage together in music. Luckily, it's something that she really loves. Like I took her to a gig last night. There's a band that plays here first Sunday of every month at at the fish pub, and it's just so family friendly and such a vibe like I actually the same bands been going for more than 30 years. So I used to go and see this this same band with my parents. It's so wicked like yeah, being able to kind of bring it into the new generation take her and Yeah, lucky for me, she does. She loves to boogie. Like I've set a pretty strong role model that the dance floor is a place for like cutting sick and inhibitions go so yeah, she's got good staying power on the dance floor. And that's that was it's just so much fun to include her in that so I feel fortunate that it's something that she's willing to get on board with because I definitely if that wasn't the case, there's no way I could bring myself to force her to love music like I I couldn't care less if whether or not she you know wants to become a musician. Despite having two musician parents. I just, I suppose I care that She feels a sense of release from listening to music and a sense of joy and happiness and fulfillment on some level, because that's what I get from it. So yeah, trying to share that with her it has, I would say been the number one joy as a parent being able to share that with her it's soundly whether that Rolla cries this guy. I'm sad. And, you know, the worst thing you can do with music is tell someone how it's supposed to be like, there's Yeah, there really. And I think there's so much of that, that I see in, you know, particularly studying music at a tertiary level, like trying to unlearn the learning of someone being like this is this is jazz, this is classical lateral, this stupid labels that we put on ourselves, which, for me, coming back to Perth has actually been really beautiful and liberating, because I'm fine. I'm in the part of my life now where I just don't care anymore about any of that stuff, like I, you know, sort of was identified so strongly with this like box of, you know, being a very classically educated person for so long and only being, you know, playing in orchestras. And that was what I wanted to do. And then I was like, Well, I couldn't possibly play jazz, or I couldn't be a drummer. And then when I went to Melbourne, to live, I remember going to a jam session that one of the first weeks I was there with a friend and he said, Are you going to get out? But I was like, No. And then I just had a moment of realizing like, no one knows me. Like, I could get up right now. And just, for all they know, I'm a badass drama. Like, maybe, maybe I just like start something new, you know? And so I just sort of got up and was like, I'll just gonna, I'm going to say this is the thing that I do. And yeah, overcoming that self stigma, I think is a really a big, it's takes time. I would say that's the best thing about betting in my 30s. And just not caring what people think anymore. It's definitely because it's your it's your everyone's just their own worst enemy. Really? Like that's what takes the longest to overcome. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a common theme with people chat, too. It's like 30s and 40s. It's like, literally, you could not give a shit. It's wonderful. When you think back on your younger years, and it's like, Oh, my God, what did I think I What will I think was wrong with me like, yeah. And you think all the things that you could have done, but you didn't do? Because you held yourself back? Yeah. Barney Hill. Yeah. So funny thing is, I can tell I'm super old now. Because I find myself thinking things like youth is wasted on the young. I'm like, I'm an old person. I'm there I've arrived Is there anything else that you want to mention about what it's like being a mom and doing your thing? God just said, I just don't, don't get it right, more than half the time or, or any of the time ever. I think it's just so funny, because, you know, sometimes you have days that you just think I nailed it. And then the next day is just like, the apocalypse. Just like the tire can change. So so quickly, you know, you go from and as I think, this year, I for the past year, maybe we were just really, you know, our immune systems were compromised for being in lockdown. But as the sickness just really got to us, and that was a really difficult thing to contend with. So yeah, we had days where everything was like, perfect. And then the next day, like, you know, my daughter's in emergency on a respirator. They can just take so quickly. No, I don't have anything else. Really, I've got no words of wisdom, just just try to you know, take it one day at a time. I think everyone just needs to be more gentle on themselves. So that's probably and particularly where we are now. I don't want to say post pandemic, because we're still in it. But I think everyone's very tired. Actually, I think there's a deep fatigue and exhaustion for people in the creative industry, that, you know, we're picking up the tab now for the last couple of years, like in terms of, you know, emotionally in the energy and it's taken a toll. And I think, I think just to acknowledge that for ourselves, as well as you know, acknowledge that the space that we're holding for our children and and For other mums as well, like, I'm so lucky, I've got some of my, my best friends who I went to uni with, you know, a million years ago. And we all studied music together, there were all mums over here together at the same time. And it's so funny because even though I finally after years, we all live in the same place, the majority of our contact with each other is just sending each other like frantic voice memos and never seeing each other and just being like, I really want to see you. It's been three and a half months. And you finally see each other and it's just like, you get five minutes of conversation, because your kids are just running around. Doing Yeah, someone's trying to throw themselves in front of a car like, yeah. Oh, yeah. My sister. And I often joke about that. Like, it was nice to catch up. I don't feel like I spoke to you at all. But yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think you know, just try to have that space for each other as well. But also know that you can, you can take up that space, that's something that I'm still working on that very much, just allowing myself to take up the space of feeling tired and feeling overwhelmed sometimes. And I've, I'm also very guilty of putting myself down because I've only got one child. So I often invalidate my own parenting challenges, because there's only one of her, which is really stupid. And I'm trying to work on not doing comparing myself to people that have more children and being like, Oh, they've got it worse than me. Yeah, those are all things. For sure. No, I'm good on you. But thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. It's been lovely chatting to you. So lovely. And thanks for just like running the podcast. It's so awesome. Oh, I just love it. I just love talking to people. And I don't know, I just, it's just a lot of fun. I don't know. It's just a fun thing. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Season 2 Special Recap of Season 2 Special Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world, we're all in this together. We all feel the same way. Enjoy this special episode to round off Season 2 of The Art of Being a Mum **We discuss mental health issues, miscarriage, body image and diet culture on this recap** Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio, Georgia Fields Australian indie artist and guest in Season 1, and Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode from Season 2 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes, together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big Virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world. We're all in this together. We all feel the same way. And we all at times have a lot of trouble expressing that to other members of society. Thank you again. Enjoy this special episode to round off season two of the art of being a mum Kate Mildenhall, Australian writer podcaster and educator. I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re identifying as as as a writer and well I'm a professional out in this world. But also then I just come home and back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic and the rest of it. Monica Crowley, Irish printmaker, oils, artist and visual artist, I find it very hard to do a picture doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. Which is it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe I don't know. Is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, I started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took him I think when I became pregnant with my first child, just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit better, right. Jessica Mendez, Canadian water colorist and illustrator. Well I started was more, like I said, when, like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I've just kind of like, use the time that you need to, like, clean or do laundry and just boring things. Or if I wanted to, like sit down, I would just, you know, like scrolled the news, which is so negative during this time. So I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. Charlotte Conde, US artist, Illustrator, and designer. You're worrying about someone else all day, and you're meeting all their needs all day long. It feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I gonna do with my life? Like? It's not like, they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like that kind of self sufficient. And they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. Submit the red fin, British expat mixed media visual artist, this recurring dream, where we had a house and one day just discovered this door and opened a door. And it's this whole wing, like a house. Like there's stuff that we didn't even knew we had. And it's like, Oh, my God, when did we get bought this house this week. And you just like, I had this dream so often. And then looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're, there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring, and neglecting. And it's there the whole time going, come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like, because this is I've done, I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like, just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece, it was totally neglected. Semi line, us mixed media, paper artist. Life feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like so then after after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what does that mean? And? And then when do I have it? And I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. Rosie Rutherford, British clarinetist and freelance musician. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. I think it just stems because you care. And you want to make the right choices for your children. And I think as mums, there's this thing isn't in there anything that you do for yourself. It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself. I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this. I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house isn't there, then I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair on everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Then Lin, Australian pianist and influencer in China Social Media what they tried to say that woman needs to wake up. So I guess it's a bit late, but at least they asked me to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You're not just a mom. You're also different. So I guess the Australia this is so natural, like, I saw my friend like yesterday, they get butts today they already you know, grabbing the baby just at the workplace. Yeah. And you cannot do that you turn up people just like what are you crazy and that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can race and I can do whatever I want. So I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't judge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like and let more people know about it. And I wanted to let people know about it no matter how many children I have, I'm still a woman get and masa kindler, Hungarian born flautist, composer, and pianist people around me, reduce me from this to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be your biological being. Not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it. I was on the road with with my baby in the pram and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize. Like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was Kelly knives, Australian professional stylist. And I just thought, you know what, I just I need something I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like me and I, I genuinely think you know, it was the best thing I ever did in everyone's different some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. And like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. Alex McLaughlin, Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist. So is that where the watercolor started to come in a bit. Like you're just sort of testing out what else you can do. And that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and then but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time. Right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning with a prefer rose Dela Cruz, New Zealand photographer. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself a break because then once I once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to I don't know be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her and she could feel that. Dr. Erica ball, US classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator. I've been to concerts by myself and people who knew me and they would you know make remarks like oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like I'm so sorry. I'd missed bedtime and I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most states even if I'm home. Isn't that it's Interesting have the judgment people just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. It's like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me and comments like that they just don't go very far to help Donna Stevenson, senior dancer with the Australian ballet. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new man does. And she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk in my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So long getting to know both of us. myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jessica and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last. And they're at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top and it filters down, if you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you. That's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted, so therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else wouldn't be doing this better than you. Heather McClelland, UK based singer, songwriter, musician, composer, and music educator, I'm very much someone that like feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, I've got this quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like, we're quite driven. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to like this. And I want to, you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well jamming and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever, you know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things of having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. Chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too. Because yeah, definitely. Yeah. Five days, five days. Louise Agnew, Australian photographer. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top, but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point. The goalposts keep shifting, I thought it was Anjali Gan, Tasha mula, Karen Mila, and Camilla flurry representing mother Wilde, a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers to Mother themselves. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being, and it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working. She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, you can experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who, you know, is, is, yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit, and life, that part I can do. And my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. We wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And, you know, we kind of say that as well, like, whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curious seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices, and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids? And who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh, my gosh, he's right, why am I doing this. And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already, through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away, and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to get away. LED Australian music publicist, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mum is not enough for me, I want more. I've got to just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself. And I'm the victim. You know, at the end of the day, I I've kind of rose above those thoughts and went well, Can I switch? Course you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself, I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not gonna stop Catherine Colette, Australian author and podcaster I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape, on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that sort of stuff, is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship and, like a real life relationship between perception and and that that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Danny van Australian hosts presenter and Master Chef staff, like I remember dropping off Harlow to daycare when I was doing that job I was talking about earlier going and chopping veggies and making these organic meals for people. I felt so bad about doing that. Like, I light up when I got there. You know, I felt good. I was able to just go into a job that I didn't really have to think about too much. And it made me feel good. But God I felt bad about just dropping off at daycare and picking her up. Light really light. And I feel like Yeah, it's like do we carry this guilt? Like why do we carry this guilt? I don't know if fathers are carrying as much guilt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like Yeah, it's hard. But I feel like I do I have less guilt now. I would say so I think I've, I've think I've tried to accept that, you know, things are as they are. I'm still my own person. My kids are their person. We're all just trying to do our best. But yeah, there's still guilt around. SHAN Rong Janessa Jovic tore us violinist and music educator. Also I won't let my identity that's part of me. I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future, when they answer understand. I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because playing a violin teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that even through the hardest time, I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love. And I always come back to it. Andrea Reyes, Australian mixed media visual artist and creativity coach. Well, here I go, like I'm into the next stage of my, my life and like I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like you kind of all for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing or who I was, I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me not like I wasn't in control of it kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything and Ms. Coleman, Australian indie musician, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty, can we all please feel guilty TKF. Just on the women, John Cook Father's Day episode, US conductor and educator, but the generation of our parents. They had to give up stuff. I'm sure that you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father, who was in the restaurant business was out every night. And come home till two three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them. You know? Yeah. And that certainly is not you know, your parents or my parents reality they had to give up things that they might may have wanted to do. But I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Mercedes roaches us claim maker and Potter. As a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no, we're, we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house not look like a big mess. Right and like, show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything, we don't like there's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour and that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes, you know, and it doesn't create this like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes because he's a partnership. It doesn't matter how much we do. It is never ever enough. Shweta based Indian born photographer based in the United States, even now like every day that passes I, I see it better. I I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and And saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing. There was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that Danny Oh, covenants Netherlands born author based in the US, technically I did, it looked like that on the outside, I had exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools. And something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time, I would beat myself up. Stop being so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy, why you're not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. Emily Johnson, US author. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second gasoline. And you know, and I'm doing this correctly, what you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kit up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless their moms themselves. Fiona Valentine, Melbourne artist, and artists business coach, I think we're experts at coming up with guilt, over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living, right? Have I done enough? Am I enough, and just recognizing that part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason, creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it, it's not even just internal. It's, it's something outside of ourselves, and recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. Simone wise, South Australian visual artist, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years, or even like, fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills in who knows what will happen in the future, I might have more time to push things further. Amy Siegfried, US podcaster and entrepreneur, my mom and I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she was since I was little till now, because a lot of the, you know, in her from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so, I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we, the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with a mixer and the whole nine yards. This is how mom does them. This is how Grammy doesn't and they're both okay. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of those things. And I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and her whatever that might be or, you know, we see people on Instagram who you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So yeah, I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do and what we just have to let go. Lisa Sugarman us writer, more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster. And I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest. In the same way. I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into you because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what, yeah. Bianca, Mara, US photographer and podcaster. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scroll on my phone. I just wasn't I, how many times are they going to be in the battle, it's like, you go into the role of like, I know, I know, A, B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuff myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I've never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like, I just felt like I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to, and I close my eyes. I was like, I can't see anymore. I can't I can't take it anymore. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about, about guilt and about. It's this, it's the knowing, it's that wise, like I get it. I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not, I'm not there. And I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments, makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment, you know, that is brilliantly put, honestly. Dr. Sophie Brock, Australian motherhood studies sociologist, what I really hope to try and do in my work and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self without mothering. And how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are, and have our own authenticity in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them. Kate King, US counselor and art therapist, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode, Australian musician and educator. I know through experience that, you know, kids love kids like to sing, but sometimes they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and the kid might sound like a dying dog too. But that can really pay detrimental to that the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. Some of my best singers and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot and that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever. It is part of what my studio is still, I'm still experimenting. You know? I'm 50 years old and I can't stop Since I was 11 years old, Steve Davis Father's Day episode, marketing consultant, comedian, educator, and podcaster. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little caught. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that that was the first thing they actually heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. Fleur Harris, an Australian illustrator and designer, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times. But it's been at those points where I've thought, oh, my gosh, I am. I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise. As or, you know. And I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty about actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and, and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family. And a good mom. Janelle Thomas, Dubai based singer and songwriter. So then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gig that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it? Like physically, like we did? You must have like, a good birth and everything like good after? Or was it like really? I did. Like, I really, you know, I had great pregnancies. And the actual deliveries were a little bit tough. At times, I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like, convinced to join us on Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage. Everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said I'm sure you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. Yeah. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit because my feet are so swollen. And I thought and you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can like I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just I couldn't even put my feet in anything and so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is please everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible footwear. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah, but, but I got there. And I really, we you know, we played three sets and I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna take Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea, I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches, so I couldn't use it. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want to steal. I'm like, no, no, no steal, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like, cling on to the mic stand for the first few seconds. But, you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. And so everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see us, you know, even six months since we'd been there, because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually, the third set, good. The third set was better, and it was kind of, okay, well, this is the power of music that, but oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Now, when I look at it, I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys, let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like, I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Suzanne Kohlberg Australian writer, and coach, my mum never had friends. She never had hobbies. I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom, like, honestly, your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband, when I was 18. When we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything. But we weren't sure. And then we decided we wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2810 years together. And then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think I do is like this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like there was a little bit of mourning there. And then I was like, I don't have to be the mum that my mom was Judy Richards, Australian mixed media artist. When when you're a mum of three young children, there's plenty it isn't out there. That you stress yourself out, because your house doesn't move a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of other people's things get to you. I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. My CDs now and visit them for them don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and visit you. I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. Leah Franklin, Australian plant based chef and entrepreneur member having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing, and you're picking your subjects and all that. And I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher and someone was going to be a pharmacist and you did it at air and, and I set out and it came around to me and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone in year 10 To say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said yeah, I can like I just want to have the house with the fence in the whole thing. And it's it's truly all I saw for myself. Khalifa Holland, Australian entrepreneur and business owner. I've always loved working in what I do. But I made that I always knew my mom was very much there for us like even though we had coffee shops and that my mom was a sort of person. Get off the bus. We had a massive drive thru on a farm. Don't be riding with get inside and nominate harmala When somebody called me up before us, so I knew that if I was able to I wanted to have that fortune. Rachel Lawson waiver us photographer and artist educator. I thought when I didn't see people like me in TV, or movies or magazines or catalogs I didn't think that, that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so, now that I have like a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself, the best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, I get to do this to Jillian Lauren, us best selling author and journalist, I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary, you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me, I was never going to give up my career. Sally refun, Australia's highest selling female author and illustrator. In the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I've missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, Liz Morton, US event florist podcaster and entrepreneur, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly a like well rounded eater, she ate a lot of spirits, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're going to want to eat them too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna love to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Katie Callahan, US singer, songwriter and artist, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not going to pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and, and like maybe that's a choice maybe maybe, you know, maybe you know, either other songwriters or like this is my way of reclaiming, you know, an individual identity is to write was to not write about them. Not like them. But because my, my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my you know, environment and circumstance then they show up they keep showing up those girls and maybe not like overtly like this is the song about my daughter because only country singers can get away with that but uh, Elise Adlam, Australian philosopher and feminist women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives, as long as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your, your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this bed, Steven, Australian singer and songwriter, everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year, everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful, you know, so, and that's, you know, partner, System Manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And for that to be successful. Alex cynic is an Australian designer and engineer. One of the reasons why we don't you know, know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. If we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs. And, you know, part of this is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed, and it's best for baby bla bla bla bla, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? Where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we don't have funding for them? Are these problems that can feasibly be solved? You know, in science? Are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to prepare cash in that area? It's a little cynical, but I think it's true. genogram, US clinical social worker, and photographer. Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like that I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long, and I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in. That could be a part of that day that could also be kind of meaningful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll be back on the sixth of January, with a new season of The Art of Being a mum

ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo US violinist + music educator S2 Ep46 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Today I welcome ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo to the podcast, a violist and music educator based in New York City, USA and a mother of 1. Born in China, ShanRong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start. ShanRong grew up in a valley a long way from the city, so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so she could teach her. After just 4 years of lessons, ShanRong was accepted into her high school Conservatory talent programme, After school ShanRong travelled to Singapore to completed her undergraduate education at the Yong Siew Toh Conservatory of Music, where she was under the tutelage of Mr. Zuo Jun and Mr. Alexander Souptel, former Concert Master of Singapore Symphony Orchestra. ShanRong then travelled to Pittsburgh to do her Masters and 4 years later got into the Doctorate programme in New York City. ShanRong holds Master’s Degree and Artist Certificates in Violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music as a full scholarship recipient, where she studied with Mr. Cyrus Forough, a pupil of legendary violinist David Oistrakh. ShanRong has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of her college and pre-school students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching, ShanRong was a teaching assistant in Western Music History and Rock Music History at Stony Brook University. ShanRong is a doctoral candidate in violin performance at Stony Brook University and recently appeared as soloist and chamber musician with Ms. Jennifer Frautschi, and Emerson quartet members at Stony Brook University Starry Nights Concert series, Arts of Violin and Chamber Music Festival. Today we chat about the unexpected injury that ShanRong has suffered since becoming a mother, role modelling the will to never give up and the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her 8 month old and the rumble of the New York trains. Music from Dr Erica Ball US composer, pianist and music educator, and previous guest of the podcast ShanRong website / instagram Podcast website / instagram Mummys Wrist Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. On today's episode, I welcome Shan Rong gana ceviche Torre to the podcast, a violinist and music educator based in New York City and a mother of one. Born in China, SHAN Rong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start Shenron grew up in a valley long way from the city so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so that she could educate her. After just four years of lessons, Shenron was accepted into her high school conservatory talent program. After school Shan rung traveled to Singapore, to complete her undergraduate education at the young suto Conservatory of Music. Shenron then traveled to Pittsburgh to do her master's and four years later was accepted into the doctorate program in New York City. Shenron holds a master's degree and artist certificates in violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music. Shenron also has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of our college and preschool students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching Shenron was a teaching assistant in western music history and rock music history at Stony Brook University. Today, we chat about the unexpected injury that shamrock has suffered since becoming a mother role modeling the wheel to never give up. And the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her eight month old son and the rumble of the New York City trains. The music you hear throughout this episode was composed by a previous guest of mine, Dr. Erica ball from the United States. This episode contains discussion around anxiety. Is that lady talking to my mom? Welcome Shenron it's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So you're in New York City. Tell me a little bit about life in New York City. I think it's one of those places that people always sort of want to visit and and aspire to visit. Just tell us what it's like to live there. New York City is very busy. The living past is really fast. And I don't know if it's because I get I'm getting older. And that I'm a mom. So I just felt like Monday to Friday just like a flying so fast. You just don't notice that. And then time is gone. Yeah, we just live here. Day by day and just very busy. Yeah. Yeah. You are is always very exciting. It's a lot of going on a lot of arts going on and a lot of things going on. I'm really happy that after, you know, we sort of going through this kind of pandemic thing locked down and are kind of dead in that moment. And then everything's getting back slowly. Which I'm happy. Yeah, but in general is very, very fast. Very busy city. Yeah, for sure. Very good. What brought you to New York City. Oh, I sort of traveled all over the place. Orange finally I was born in China. I went to Singapore for my undergraduate studies. So I was in Singapore for many years and To come to state is really the reason that I came here to study my master's degree, pursue my further education. So yeah, I went to Carnegie Mellon for my master's degrees. And also my artists deploy my training over there in Carnegie Mellon, and I moved to New York in 2015, just to come here to complete my doctoral degree. So let's share with our listeners what you do you play the violin, and incredibly well to you, because I've watched some of your videos that were linked to your website, just beautiful. Tell us about how you got started playing. Yeah, I actually started on this road when I was 10. It wasn't, it wasn't early, because most of my colleagues theory, or starters, like two and a half and why? Well, I lived in your Valley in China. And it's kind of far from CD. So I never actually get a chance to actually get to touch this instrument. But I always see people playing back then in team on TV. So I was holding a chopsticks. Like, I'm pretending I'm playing. And I even like I wasn't sure what I was doing. But I always very excited to see people playing, even to hear just hear the music. Yeah. And just by occasion, that my mom's friend's daughter actually got a chance to go to Sydney to learn this instrument. And then they brought the teacher to the valley. So I actually started a group lesson. And I was one of those overdose coats in the class. And I was just basically running around. I wasn't learning in the moment, my mom was like, What are you doing after half year, I don't even know the open strings of my instruments. She sort of getting into it, it was like, and she started getting all those books. And she started to study by herself. And she started to just teach me and after half year, my mom sort of fired the teacher. And she brought me on this road. And we found a teacher in CT will occasionally go into that teacher's house, like every half year because it's only two hours by bus from the valley. I used to live to the city. So my mom does lead me there, like every half year. But the rest of time she won't be learning by those teaching tapes. And you know, that then, like 20 years ago, then we don't have like DVDs or those kind of things. We have like your VCR like you really big tape. Yeah, yeah, we do. And my mom bought all those teaching tapes and that she just, I don't know, she's amazing. You should learn about ourselves. She got all those books and she watched you have people play on the TV and she just learned how to hold a ball how to read music. She just taught her something and I just after four years and I got into high school consequently, talent, talent program. Yeah, by playing Czajkowski are actually not checkups me. I played school as planning concerto, the first movement when I was 14 years old. Yeah. Well, I started 13 years old. And I yeah, I do not know how I have no idea. How did I do it? Everything for me? Yeah. So that's how I started. And after, you know, years of studies, and I just auditioned, and I got into Singapore. That's long story short, so I got into Singapore finished my bachelor and I started my masters in Pittsburgh. And four years later, I got into the doctoral program is still over. Yeah, that's just the kind of trip. Wow, that is. That's an incredible story that your mom was so passionate for you to play that she basically she became your teacher. And she also ended up teaching her having her own studio. Yeah, brought up so many very, so many talented students. And actually, one of them now works for Amazon and she used to be playing a lot but now she's, she's working for Allah. Come like go scientists for the Amazon yeah what was it like having your mom as a teacher? Was she really tough on you because you were your daughter? Or she was she liked? Yes. I think she has a lot of patience for me. Because I wasn't an easy kid. I do not want to practice but she asked me do you want to practice? No, I definitely absolutely hate practicing with passion. Yeah. But she believes she believes in me and she trusts that I would have this as my career. She's for some reasons too. So that in my in my life, hmm. Yeah. I do not know how she did it. But that's she had been she gave up a lot to give up her work. And she dedicated to my practice. She gave up TV shows. She don't watch TV. And she just cut off her friends for me to just be with me and practice. Yeah, she sets all my lessons and she sets all my practice. Yeah. Is your mom still alive now? Yeah, she's she she now she's a she lives in China. Yeah, so she's been able to see your whole career like she's she's seen everything you've achieved. She must be so incredibly proud of you. Well, she was happy time to time well, she will also get very critical comment. So basically tell me I really don't like your dress that you wear on the performance punch you just tie your hair better I think that phrase you can do that phrase again, like in this way. So Interplay playing and she's so into my performance my like a progress. Yeah. Like a performance related or now like nowadays I teach a lot and she sometimes give me feedbacks or my teaching or she will give me some advice on how to handle my students. Oh, wow. That is incredible. So at that time in China was that something that was out of the ordinary for a mum to do? Well, that's back then. It's very rare that for someone will quit her job. Basically just to dedicate everything give everything to the child. Oh, very unusual. Yeah. Yeah. People don't seem I understand. People even laughed at her like you know, say Oh, I gotta see how is your young daughter going to be but turned out nobody knows what's gonna happen So how old you little boy there seven month and last. I love seeing his photos when you put things up on his on your Instagram. He's just the most gorgeous I bet you hear that a lot. You Yeah, people always like Well, yeah, like if they want people if people know me the result? Ah, he looks like Daddy or you look like mommy. I'd be if I walk on the street. I got someone asked me I knew the nanny. Like there's one day there's a lady random lady come up to me that people find that very respectful but like I just want that for fun. Yeah. Thinking that maybe because my, I wasn't dressed well, because nowadays when you become a mom, you don't have time to think, Oh, I got to put up makeup, I got to dress nicely, I have things first thing on my shirt, or just wear sweatpants and running out, just get some food, you know, like I don't have I could totally actually complain about that tell us about some of the things I was reading in your bio about places that you've performed and things that you've done and share with us a little bit about some of the things the performances or the things you've done that really stick in your mind that that you're like your favorites, I suppose? Well, I have to really say that I really enjoy performing, especially chamber music. And not even mention about solo music. Mean solo means just love it by yourself. So far, I have done a lot of performance with string instruments or piano a lot. And but last year in November, I performed it with a newly formed orchestra in New York City, which is right after, like not too long after I gave birth. I gave birth in August, and then that concert happened in November. I played with this chamber orchestra. Yeah. Yeah, so that's basically what I do. Yeah, the performance. Yeah. And hopefully, a new future that I can't have some more kind of like a chamber music series come up. So I can perform. During the pandemic is a little hard. Oh, like a 2020 2020 2021. Back then from 2020 was a first year. We don't, we don't like everywhere in New York City was shut down. Like retrim Metropolitan Opera was shut down and new. New York Philharmonic was shut down. And all the artists has no stage to perform. The concert halls was close. So but the time I still didn't give up. So I flooded positions we performed on the performance on the road on the side of the road. And we put we played a lot of string string works like like trills, Doros and solo violence. Yeah. And we played those kind of outdoor concerts. You have a pandemic, and we have great turnout. Yeah. And also, I also played a lot in church, which our church I played with organ and piano. Yeah. A lot. The only thing that I don't I didn't do much is in to play in the orchestra. I don't consider myself an orchestral musician. Although I love orchestral music. I love to be your audience. Instead of sitting in. Yeah, maybe hopefully, in the future, maybe I will have a different experience. Or maybe my, my feeling will change. But who knows. I enjoy chamber music. Oh, yeah. The only one of the videos I was watching, you're playing the solo for winter by the rowdy from the four seasons. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That performance? Oh, that performance was in 2013. And I was selected by the school. And that year was the 100 years anniversary for Carnegie Mellon University. So that was to the gala concert. So I was like, there were there was a call permutation is cool. Like, we have like a 10 students playing the same piece. And I got lucky got selected to play that gala concert. And it was it was broadcast at the same time on the wq. Ed. Radio Station classical. Yeah. And to all the December because it will happen in December, right. It was a winter concert and true December. Everyone can hear my flying on this radio station. It was just repeatedly playing during that season. It's like a holiday season. Like, if you hear winter. That's me. I forgot my friend called me. Turn on the radio. You were you were on the plane. Oh, that was wonderful experience for me. And costs a house for a beautiful two. Yeah, and playing in front of that orchestra would have been quite incredible for you. And we have a choir, the choir entire choir was behind me. Like it turned out because there's no time for people to stand out from the stage. So I just have to come out play and then off again Absolutely. So what are your, some of your favorite pieces or favorite composers that you enjoy to play? Well, over the years, it's changing so much. I remember when I was just out from college, I enjoyed the play. Chuck kowski. Like, you know, those very romantic pieces. And then time passing, right that you grow older and you experience a lot in life. And I figured I I do really, really like love Beethoven. And I love Brahms. And then later on, I started to get into a lot of contemporary pieces, too. And buy new composers. Yeah. But in general, my. My favorite composer, I have to say the pieces to play is Beethoven is controllable. And he's so novice and also Bach. Yeah, that's like, the top. Yeah, yeah. I have nothing to work on. If I have nothing to play, I will just do something. Yeah. was pregnant 2020 in November? Yeah. So 2021 is the time like, basically, I got pregnant. And I still manage the practice back then. Although the first three months was really hard, because I my body was just off. I couldn't get off the couch. Yeah. So and then after that I still kept practicing. And so I also managed to have rehearsals with my friend. Yeah. And I had rehearsals in my house. And I also did rehearsal with my friend who plays the viola we we've prepared, prepared for the concert to be happening in November last year. Yeah. But we hadn't rehearsed. So in May, June, July, and, like I go to give birthday August, sort of like that. And I managed to practice because I say is pandemic essence, I'm not going anywhere. So I sort of made a list of work that I wanted to practice. Yeah, but I never get a chance. But now I got pregnant, so I had a plenty time. And then I just started practicing all those pieces. Yeah, yeah. Great, great time to work on things that you don't have time for. But yeah. So like, during that time, I found myself I can sit down and to just focus longer. I do not know. Because if there's a because of hormones or like I have just been changed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's a beautiful photo that you sent me. of you. I'm not can't remember how many months pregnant now, but you've you've got your violin. And then you've got the baby violin sitting on your name. Yeah, that was in June, July. Yeah, July. We're in year two. I watch any beginning of July. We're in year two. Yeah. That's yeah. So like, my friend. I was kept asking me if I want my boy to play instruments. I said no. I saw her daughter swollen. Because my friend she was still photograph. Until I saw that. I was like, oh, like, let me take a photo with it. Yes, I guess maybe we. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. You said that you went back and your first performance was when your sound was three months old. How How hard was that to do? Well, I think the trickiest thing for me back then was when we had to have rehearsal. I had the conductor and I had the other soloist came to my apartment. And the hardest thing is you're rehearsing babies all weekend. So the conductor, so they are they're both are my friends. So the conductor has to hold my baby in one hand and listen to us like it's kind of you Yeah, he was. He was to one month in house. Over two months. Yeah. It's amazing what we do, isn't it to make things work? Yeah. And also, sometimes he has to just see through my practice. Yeah, I have to, or like during the rehearsal when the conductor wasn't here, just me and the violist. I had to put him right next to me was not my turn. I sort of like, like a pedicab. Like him to calm down. And when those my term and to enter, I have to grab my esteros. Fast and join. Join her. Yeah, that was it was a challenge. But yeah, but that's the thing, though, isn't it? It's like, I guess you wanted to get back to playing it was important for you to keep that part of your life going. Yeah. So I have to say, if you if I look back from the time when I give birth to now, the hardest thing and making more than most is actually not because I don't have time to practice or I don't have energy is that truly the ones that I because I have to keep holding the baby and I sort of develop mommy's wrist Oh, third most last November when I performed with this collective 366 My wrist my full hand was really painful. I sort of have to change a lot of Boeing's because that to compensate, but a lot of boys that I do. So I because that reason hurts so much. I cannot do a post ago. So I have to sort of change the bowing that I used to do before I give birth. So now I have to change a lot of things to make it happen. Yeah, for sure. And then after performance, the baby is scoring bigger and I have to carry him continuously to calm him down. Right and, and then my left hand also developed the mommy's wrist. So now that I come to the question that uh, do I have to give up my plane? Now, yes, I sort of have to say a lot of said no to a lot of concerts performance. Yeah. It hurts even when I have to just demonstrate to my students. Yeah, I can do. I cannot do shifts. Yeah, on my left hand, I cannot really do shifts because it hurts the muscle when I have to use too. Well, the good thing is this just a temporary in just a moment. So I, I wasn't giving up the whole whole thing yet. So I'm just basically I'm not taking any performance. I'm not performing or having any rehearsal, but I still happen to manage that to practice self care basic skills. Yeah, yeah. Like to, like I'm now here. I'm actually a new mom taking baby steps. Yeah, I'll make sure to Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, physically, you can use I can play longer. longest time I have some some sort of movements that I can do. Yep. Wow. Was that something that you anticipated? When, when you were pregnant? No, I was actually shocked. I didn't know. I didn't do research that I might going to this. Some women, they were experiencing this kind of pain, even before the baby was born. I think it does have something related to the hormones. Do you sort of feel a little bit like, I feel a bit like it's not fair that I've got to give up? You know, playing or do you feel okay with it? I'm okay with it. Because children cared for, like, my baby is extension of my life. And it's from me and my husband. I don't really think it's not fair. And I, but I'm not. Also I'm not gonna say that. I'm enjoying every single moment. Fair. I'm not saying that I'm enjoying every single moment. But I'm, I'm just trying to experience every bit of it. Whether it is happy, whether it's tired, or even sad, or angry, or disappointed, sometimes love my husband is here if you're in there. I'm trying to experience because I believe this thing. Having a baby having a child in my life is should be part of my life. Yeah, let's see. Of course, it is very hard for a woman and to be a mom to be an artist to be a teacher to be an educator. It just so much to do even not to forget to be your wife. Yeah, that's it. I'm still struggling with how to balance sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I'm just really burnout. Yeah, yeah. I think that's something I can all relate to. Yeah, I'm really appreciate that. Although I don't have my parents with me, you know, in our culture, your, your parents can help you. Like, our parents can help us with baby. But we don't have our pants. It's basically me and my husband. So the daytime he is at work. And when he comes home, he will take over the baby then I can have some time to cook. And when the baby go to the bat, then we we finally have some time to eat and to clean it up, you know, just very busy. Oh, yeah. I'm still trying to figure out the time to practice not long, like at least an hour. Because my condition right now. Yeah, I did get angry. That angry and sad that my hands become like this mess, hence saturation. I was a little mad about this. But once I understood that was just gonna be a phrase of my life. And it's just differently. I have to be patient to slowing down with what I do now in life. Actually, actually started to enjoying the process of being with my baby. Because I know this one will never return. He will grow up bigger and this time we'll never return back. I can always go back to play and once he can go to daycare. My goal is not just in time to take here before to, yes. That's right. November last year, because it was just the three months, right, three months of after give birth. And then, you know, yes, before four month we are purely breastfeeding. So I don't really breast breastfeeding him. After two months, I was there pumping out so I can get some sleep. And so and my my friend who was of USA, her name is Makayla, and she was asking me, so what are you going to do when you're on the stage? Are you going to leak or something? Nope. I have. I said, I'm saying I have I think I have that figured out. So I will make sure that I come before I walk on the stage. So yes, you have sort of hot before you walk on the stage. Yeah. Yeah, because you I also have to dress like your performance dress. Right. And so yeah. I think go to time. Perfect. And cannot be too early. It cannot be too late. Yeah, because you also have to mentally prepared you're gonna do you have to perform. You have to be fully concentrate. Yeah. But then pumping is something jumping before the performance. Yes. Something that I got to figure it out. You mentioned about your teaching, you're still teaching now. Yes, I teach a lot. Yeah, I teach. So actually, I went back to teaching two weeks after I give birth. You know, it is pandemic. And it's not like I have to go somewhere. Yeah, it was online. So I spread my students to every day. So I have one hour for each student's per day. So it's not a lot work. So in fact, that's kind of like changing my how my brain works. So I it's so for me, actually teaching become a break for me. Yeah, I really enjoy teaching. That's the only time I don't have to work with baby. I don't have to work with baby. Yeah. And here I really have to, to say to my students, and the parents are so, so nice. So most of the time after New York back to normal, like meaning reopen. So I started to have private student come to my house. And the parents are either helping me carrying the baby or they will just allow me to carry my baby we're teaching. So my baby Jacob was exposed to music. So yeah, he will either sing along when I'm teaching. Yeah. Or he will just drag me my students for he is joining us most of the time. Yeah. That's so nice. Isn't it that he's such a part of it? Yeah. So I also teach in the weekend, weekends on Sunday. That's the time my husband wants so I have that day. I have that day. Just teaching Yeah, for sure. When you first had your son, did you feel like you went through a change in your identity about how you saw yourself? I think this part is very this part of me is very funny. And I don't know if other moms are like this too. After giving birth I cannot believe If I'm already on mom, I can question myself what is going on? And I cannot. Like if people are saying asking me Oh, how is the baby so your baby's fine, but I cannot. I find it really difficult for me to relate me as his mom. Yeah. Well, I have to talk to myself that I'm already a mom. Yeah. So, yes, my identity. I realize my identity changed over the months. For sure. Yeah. So I wasn't really, really aware of it. Even after I gave birth, I wasn't really aware for that. Yeah. Yeah. If you will tell me all your violinist Yes. You're a wife. Yes. But you're a mom. I was like, Let me think about it. But actually, yes. Yeah. This is a topic I like to talk to all my mom's about mom guilt. Is that something that you've experienced? Or? Or what's your thoughts about that? Yes, definitely. That frustration for me? I'm not exactly about because I I have to not been taken care of. It's just because it's because I have to learn how to sort of my What do you say that? Patients? Yeah, yeah. Patients, you know, musicians, artists are very, very emotional. They're very sensitive. We're very sensitive. So whatever. baby cries will make me really, really anxious. That's my gifts. Yeah, right. Make anxious and I find myself at the very beginning. I have very, very difficult time to actually sue him. And also calm myself down. And I will be actually crying together with. Yeah, that's the only mommy guilt. Yeah. Yeah. So well, I did my husband jumping and helping me. Wherever he crushed so much. He will just jump jumping in and take him. Yeah, yeah. Even like in the car riding like, I sometimes I can't really control my emotions when you know, anxious. That's totally normal. It happens to a lot of new moms. Oh, yeah. Well, like my husband won't help not appreciate and I had my students parents that I can talk to, and they won't give me a lot of advice because she had three three kids. Yeah, she got thing and I'm really appreciate these people in my life. Yeah, my mommy guilt is really just handling the baby. Learning. I just felt like I'm not learning that fast enough. I thought it's come natural, but actually not natural. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. But that's my mom. I told her this is way harder than playing a violin. Practice to protect your next moments. And you're you're actually caring about your past, past, present and future you can control sort of controlling even on the stage. You know how it's gonna go. If you practice a baby, you can't. Oh, yeah, everyday. Yeah. So that's, it's very challenging, isn't it? Yeah. Challenging. Yeah. And also, yeah, I just felt like it's having a baby has a very, very big impact in my career. Yeah. But no regrets. I'm happy this I still happy that I made a decision decision to be alone. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, it's a phase in your life and in he'll grow and change and then there'll be other things you know, As always, your violin will always be there also, I won't let my identity that's part of me, I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future when they answer their own since I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because rather than teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that. Even through the hardest time I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love, and I always come back to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I will go get this encouragement from my wife, my mentor. His name is Philip Setzer. He's the violinist from Amazon, the famous Amazon quartet. He told me that his mom gave up her performance her career in for him to bring him up, spend all the time for the family to be a mom. But eventually, her mom came back and auditioned to kill Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and go into that orchestra and spend the rest of your life with that orchestra still be a professional Yeah, yes, he wrote this email to me he says he wants to give me some encouragement that never give up. Now that's wonderful that is so good. Hold on yeah I'm very happy and I'm also very appreciate that the people in my life my friends that I mentioned earlier, the music director of collective 366 That's new orchestra and they are my friend in life that they always told me never give up they always told me well we're gonna play again yeah I'm really really appreciate that those people who you my life wanted to make music with me. Yeah, that I never forget my identity. Absolutely. Oh, good on you. That sounds like you've got some really good people around yes fantastic. Have you got anything coming up any performances or things that you want to share with us? So a music festival coming up in May. This is organized by conservatory Lila, named Lila music conservatory and that they have Music Festival in May. And also in August there will be some masterclass happening in the same place. I don't have further concerts coming up yet because my hands addiction. But I have two concerts planned in my in my mind. One is a solo works cause that was on the fingertips. And basically I will play a lot of dance music by Bach and also some contrary pieces and collaborated with some dancers. And also there will be another concert just basically by Stravinsky some work by Stravinsky and Bach. Yeah, wonderful. With Anest let's update those informations once I have clear debt on my on my website oh good on you. That sounds great. Oh look, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and having you little man there too. Yeah. Is very active. He wants to he already knows how to post them. Okay, by seven half. He hasn't had one taste yet. But he already can. He can already set up by himself. And he wants to pause then and just don't want to be just steel wants to move around. He wants to go ready to get very tired, but like Sometimes when I practice I just put him in a walker, or a Noona. Like the chair, and I just play for him. Yeah. Me, like, what are you doing? Yeah, most recently, last Saturday, I brought him to a piano masterclass. The professor played one phrase of Chapin. And it was so it's a it's a sad music. And he was he was so touched by the music. He was full tears in his eyes and start crying oh I'm gonna let you go now. You can have Mammootty yourself again. Oh, it was so nice to talk to you. Oh. My mom was a great example for me. Never give up. And that's the math was like I I learned I saw how that happened. Absolutely. I hope in the future, I can come back to the stage again and continue to share great music with people with everyone. I'm sure you will. I'm absolutely sure you will. We don't yet. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Diane Kazakis Australian mixed media artist 1 Article # 3 June 2023 I was born in Australia in 1973 and grew up in Melbourne until my late 20’s. Over the past 21 years (has it really been that long?!!!!) I have had the privilege of living in Portugal, Kenya, Oman, Germany and now China. These diverse cultural experiences and environments have been a constant source of inspiration for my work, and have greatly influenced my artistic style and subject matter. I studied Visual Arts in Melbourne, Australia with a major in sculpture and also have a Bachelor of Education, which led me to teach secondary school art. I also worked for an event/art installation company and independently as an artist until my husband and I moved overseas to teach in Portugal in 2002. I thrive on variety and exploring new media. Over the years this has been very much influenced by my location – access to materials, tools, and studio space as we have moved around the world. I often combine different materials and work on varied surfaces, with multiple pieces in progress at the same time, allowing me the flexibility to switch between work depending on the process limitations (drying time etc.) and what I’m in the mood for. I am captivated by the ebb and flow in ecospheres, creating work that is in a state of flux by exploring mediums that have an altered appearance when viewed from different angles. Recent explorations have been with ink and watercolour on canvas, paper and wooden panels. I am fascinated by the natural formation of the media on different surfaces, allowing the colours to puddle and form naturally and then working to enhance certain areas with various layers. I am also exploring a mixture of 2D and 3D art forms utilising layers and negative space. I am mesmerised by how the work changes and creates shadows in different light. My current work is mostly about the representation or suggestion of landscapes – it's more internal, emotional and metaphysical than actual visual responses to what I see before me. I have been working on two series the past couple of years: “Meditative Circles” are ink and acrylic investigations into water surfaces, cells and cross-sections of plants with their intricate patterns and forms. “Earthscapes” are squares of watercolour mounted onto wooden panels which explore the various surfaces of the Earth and its atmosphere from above. My husband works in education and we have moved around for his job in international schools. We have two children - our daughter is 16 and our son is 14. Our daughter was born in Portugal and when she was one month old we moved to Kenya. I was a few months pregnant with our son when we left abruptly in 2007 due to political trouble and when it became dangerous in Nairobi. He was born in Melbourne and when he was 3 weeks old, we moved to Oman….my husband and I like a challenge I guess!!! I don’t really like the term “trailing spouse” as it kind of negates my contribution and value, but ultimately, we selected each of our locations together. We have had to adapt to new environments with our children and learnt to navigate these changes and challenges as a family. We have had some incredible experiences living overseas and as our kids get older, they appreciate the vast exposure to the world that they have already had. It has been difficult to bring up our kids without the support network of family around – especially for our parents not seeing their grandkids grow up as they would have if we had still been living in Australia. I have a wonderful studio at home where I have natural light, fresh air, space and a beautiful view, so I spend a lot of my time there and find it incredibly inspiring. Now that my children are older and more independent, I have a lot more time for my art than in previous years. The big gap in my exhibitions is very much representative of the period where I was more involved in their daily routines. I am more prolific now than I have ever been and spend most of my day in my studio. I try to organise my time so that I have variety in the day - not just creating artwork, but also working on ideas, experimenting, researching, updating my website, online gallery profiles, answering emails, posting on social media, planning workshops etc. "For me it is important that my kids see that I contribute to our family and society with something that I am passionate about." Having moved around a lot I have not had much of an art circle around me. In each new country I have had to re-establish myself by reaching out to galleries, businesses, schools, hotels etc. to set up exhibitions, connections and to create opportunities. I have developed a lot of confidence with this over the years and whilst it is hard to have to keep doing this, it does allow me to present fresh ideas and reach new audiences. I am currently part of a female artist’s network on WeChat where we share achievements and struggles with our art and offer each other support virtually. I have managed to meet up with a couple of these ladies in person but given that we all live in different cities it’s not a regular thing. Being an artist is very solitary and as an introvert, I am quite ok with that! We currently live on a boarding school campus, and I occasionally teach art workshops in and outside of the school which provide opportunities to collaborate. I find that it is quite a good mix for the moment. Because we are a small family in unfamiliar environments, we have spent a lot of time together, so I feel that I have been a very present mother for my kids. When I was growing up, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and cousins but my kids haven’t had that – I definitely feel guilty about this aspect of choosing to live and bring up a family overseas. From time to time I feel a certain degree of guilt if I have days where I don’t feel like I have achieved much in my studio. I am very fortunate that I am able to do what I love on a daily basis and as such feel driven to achieve and in a sense, justify my work. For me it is important that my kids see that I contribute to our family and society with something that I am passionate about. I have always been very creative with them, and I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity and luxury of being able to stay at home with them in their early years. I was foremost a mum for many years, but always managed to carve out time and space for my artwork. My work has very strong environmental themes and content and this viewpoint is something that I am proud my children have taken on. Both kids are very creative and show an interest in my work. Now that they are older and quite talented themselves, we exchange ideas and give each other suggestions for our artwork. "Not so many years ago I feel that artists who were also mothers were considered hobby artists, but I think that with social media, online galleries and so many digital tools at our fingertips to create art businesses and market our work, things have dramatically changed for female artists." Being an artist, my contribution to our family income is sporadic. Over the years I have had exhibitions where I sell a lot of work, commissions, and other projects. I have also taught art and run workshops in most of the countries we have lived in to supplement my income. But there have also been periods where my income was sparse or non-existent. I find these phases frustrating, but I know that it fluctuates, and I always have something in the pipeline so I know that it is only a matter of time. Over the past few years (perhaps it’s because I am fast approaching the big five-O??!!!) I have been more determined and proactive with marketing my work and creating opportunities – whether that be for setting up exhibitions or collaborations with hotels, spas, or businesses. I find great joy in creating work that is tailored to specific spaces and clients, as it allows me to add value, beauty and atmosphere to their environment. Not so many years ago I feel that artists who were also mothers were considered hobby artists, but I think that with social media, online galleries and so many digital tools at our fingertips to create art businesses and market our work, things have dramatically changed for female artists. Much of this work can be done at home whilst kids are still young, so it has opened up vast opportunities. My mum is a first generation Australian. Her parents immigrated to Australia in the 1950’s from Europe and met on the ship over! The family worked hard to establish themselves in Melbourne and spent their whole lives there. For my mum it was difficult because she had to abide by strict family and cultural rules whist also trying to assimilate into the Australian culture. Many women were pursuing careers in the 70’s with new freedoms available to them to be whatever they wanted to be. My mum was expected to work a little while and marry young – which she did, then she had me when she was 21. Mum and Dad agreed that she would stay at home while my sister and I were young and Dad worked 2 jobs until my sister and I went to school. My mum then went back to work with flexible hours so she was still able to be at home for us when we were there. For me, art is a place to pause – a place to linger in that space where whispers and thoughts can unfold and be heard. It’s a way to be connected to the present moment, much like meditation. I love to share that with people who view my artwork or take part in my workshops. From sweeping landscapes and wispy cloudscapes to microscopic details and figurative harmonies, my work depicts not only the beauty of the natural environment but also draws attention to its fragility and deterioration. My work captures the fragile beauty of nature and draws attention to elements that need protection and regeneration. It urges the viewer to observe the interconnectedness of humans and our planet on the scale from the microscopic to the larger overview, reminding us of our profound need to connect with nature and to ensure it has a greater part in our everyday lives. I am currently working with a cosmetics/skincare company that is featuring my artwork on their product and packaging. We also plan to collaborate on more products in the future. I have worked with hotels and spas to create work which enhances the mood of the spaces by bringing nature inside. I would love to do more of these commissions in similar public and private settings and on a larger scale. Another idea I have been pondering and would like to pursue is to create art and yoga retreats at our home in Portugal – an experience where participants can learn to create art in nature and nourish their creative spirit, body and soul whilst having the opportunity to explore the spectacular Algarve region. Contact Diane Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dianekazakis/ Links with articles, publications, etc.: https://linktr.ee/dartemisia Website: https://dianekazakis.com/ Email: artemiskazakis@gmail.com BACK