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Mary Sotiropolous and Jessie Ann Elliot Australian authors S4 Ep95 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to Season 4! To begin we have a special episode to mark Mother's Day in Australia, and many other countries including most of Europe, Canada, Brazil, China and Japan. I am thrilled to welcome two creative mothers, Mary Sotiropoulos + Jessie Ann Elliot, Mary grew up in Sydney + moved to Goulburn almost 5 years ago, and she's a mum of a 3 year old daughter. Mary went from being a Full Time teacher to a Writer, Community Builder and Unschooling Guide. Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local (NSW) for most of her life, except for a tiny quarter life crisis year in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mum of 2 children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a Full time Community Planner in Local Government to a Writer, Creator, Photographer, Holistic Counsellor, Meditation Therapist and Women’s Circle Facilitator. and they have collaborated to write the book "The Mum Who Found Her Sparkle." Jessie and Mary started out as online friends, meeting in a membership facilitated by Motherhood Studies Sociologist Dr Sophie Brock. (a previous guest of the podcast) In this group they learnt not only about Matrescence, but how Motherhood is socially constructed and how far removed the act of housework is from actual Mothering. The journeys to becoming Mothers saw both women completely re-evaluate how they viewed the world, There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to ‘do it all’ and that this significantly impacts on the wellbeing and mental health of Mothers and therefore families. The joy is often lost, the things that a women enjoyed pre-motherhood often put on the back burner, as she places others above her. In June 2022 Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers, that would explore the topic of this 'lost sparkle' that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pair went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children or changing nappies. The story follows Te and Oscar as they support their Mum Amber, to find her Sparkle. It is a story of a Mum being just as worthy of her shiny-ness as her kids are, and everyone knowing about it. Within the story there are layers of meaning and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purposeful conversation throughout its' pages. It is their hope that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritise finding that lost Sparkle. The book will be available in the coming months. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety and birth trauma** Jessie and Mary - instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you back to Season Four after a short little break. And as always, on Mother's Day, I like to do a little bit of a special episode usually with more than one guest. So today I'm very excited to welcome bliss and Jessie and Elliot. Mary grew up in Sydney and moved to Goldman almost five years ago. She's a mom of a three year old daughter. She went from being a full time teacher to a writer, community builder, and unschooling guide, Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local for most of her life, except for a tiny quarterlife crisis here in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mom of two children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a full time community planner in local government, to a writer, creator, photographer, holistic counselor, meditation therapist and women's circle facilitator. And they have collaborated to write the book the mum who found her sparkle. Jessie and Mary started out as online friends meeting in a membership facilitated by motherhood study sociologist Dr. Sophy Brock, who's also a previous guest of this podcast. In this group, they learned not only about muttrah essence, that how motherhood is socially constructed, and how far removed the act of housework is from actual mothering. The journeys to becoming mothers saw both women completely reevaluate how they viewed the world. There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to do it all, and that this significantly impacts on the well being and mental health of mothers and therefore families, the joy is often lost, and things that a woman enjoyed pre motherhood are often put on the backburner as she places others needs above her own. In June 2022, Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers that would explore the topic of this last sparkle that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pay went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children, or changing nappies. This story follows tea and Oscar as they support their mum Amber to find her sparkle. It is a story of a mum being just as worthy of his shininess as her kids and everyone knowing about it. Within the story, there are layers of meaning, and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purpose or conversation throughout its pages. Their hope is that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritize finding that lost sparkle, and the book will be available in the coming months. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety and birth trauma. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. It was a lot of fun to record. Joining me on this very special Mother's Day episode, I have not one but two creative mothers. I'd love to welcome Jessie and Mary to the podcast. Thank you for coming on ladies, I assume thank you so much for having us. Oh, it's my pleasure. I love it. I love it. I've only ever had one other episode where I had multiple guests at once. So it is lovely to treat for me to more than one face in the in the Zoom chat. It's lovely. Yeah. So tell me briefly before we launch into things whereabouts are you both at the moment? You're Victoria, am I right or not? You tell me I've done know where I'm going. That's all right close. So I am in Hunter Valley, so just outside of Maitland, which is sort of near Newcastle. So yeah, we're in New South Wales, being a hunter local for most of my life, except for a quarter life crisis when I moved to Scotland for a year. But other than that, I've been a hunter local. So yeah, yeah, just leave around that. So you both like you know each other in real life apart from on Instagram. Well, I was a Sydney girl grew up as a city girl, but I live about an hour and a half or two hours out of the main center of Sydney, and about half an hour from Canberra, in regional New South Wales. So we met in an online membership with Dr. Sophie Brock back in 2020. Was it? Yeah, yeah. I was 2020. And then once Jessie had her second in 2021, we sort of connected even more at that point. Because I was fascinated by how she was navigating her second postpartum fourth trimester. Yeah, and apologies. We did say this. My beautiful daughter is very much wanting to make an appearance. Wonderful. Oh, oh, good. So yes, when you said Dr. Sophy broke, I got excited because I've had Sophie on the podcast and she's amazing. I love what she's teaching. She's for those who don't know, Sophie's motherhood studies sociologist based in Australia in Sydney. I think she is. And she runs lots of things online education and even just if you just get on her Instagram, it's incredibly inspiring. And yes, so that's awesome. But yes, go on. Sorry. Lately tried. Oh, no, it's it's very any chance to pump her up? We're totally in support. It was, it was a beautiful meet you so yeah, we met in her online membership, liberate it. And as Mary said, we just sort of started chatting more and more. And after a period of time, you know, doing that Mary went on a road trip and actually came and had dinner at our house. And when we met in person, it was just it was very easy. You know, it was it wasn't it was just kind of like of course we've always known each other in person. It was just yeah, really sort of easy. I think it was a year ago if last year that I've met you in person Yeah. And then all the rest is history breadcrumbs. You lovely ladies have got a book in the works, which is pretty awesome. And it's called the mum who found her sparkle. So who would like to tell us? Maybe maybe start off by sharing how you came up with it or what compelled you to create the children's book? Yeah. Well, I guess going right back to when I became a mum, I planted load for the birth, I knew roughly how to change a nappy. I knew possibly I might need to swaddle the newborn. But I really hadn't prepared myself for that, that transition to mother for matrices properly. And I experienced postnatal depression and anxiety for probably the first you know, eight, nine months sort of severely after my son was born. And in that time, I really found that I I very much dismissed my my feelings and my emotions. And I was just doing a hell of a lot of disassociation. disassociating. And it wasn't until I started to, again sort of focus on my creativity. So my Excel The expression that I started to claw my way out of that. So that had been sort of brewing since 2020, I guess how important it is for us to focus on what brings us joy. And so I guess coming from that, slowly, slowly, slowly building that more into my life, and then leading in to when I fell pregnant with my daughter, my second pregnancy, and approaching the end of it, and I thought, okay, I know much more now about accepting all the help that I can. I know that I need to engage the support of a postpartum doula. I know I need to just let the house go in terms of the task. But I thought, What am I doing to plan for my creativity in this time in my life, because I knew that I needed that to stay really mentally well, and to to really assist in that transition. So I came up with a project to create a project. So I wish I had called it 90 Emotional days. And so each day in during my fourth trimester, I was going to take, you know, a moment or several moments to check in with myself and how I was feeling and, and really sort of it was to help myself as well name what I was feeling because as you know, growing up a good girl like we all do, we, we kind of don't really learn how to really properly honor what we're feeling, or even know what that might even be some of the time. And that creative element as well was either taking, you know, a photo or making a video and just sharing that each and every day, whenever, however, it sort of felt good. And it sort of evolved in to making funny reels doing breastfeeding inspired digital art, taking breastfeeding photos in front of wall art out in the community. And then right at the end of that my daughter, I think she was four months old. And this idea came to me. And originally, it was, I messaged Mary straightaway, originally it was the mum who lost her expression. So that was where the idea originally come from. And then it just blossomed and blossomed. So and evolved and changed as both of us were on the journey of this book together. And I think for both of us we've had we had struggles did we marry just sort of talking about at the start of both of our postpartum journeys and what that transition was actually like? Yeah, I think I'm a little different to Jessie, and that I'm not as organized as her again. She was, I think I was watching on when she was doing the 90 Emotional days and thinking, how is she doing this with a newborn. I mean, it just was so foreign to me, because I My experience was, I mean, I would have definitely been diagnosed with postnatal anxiety. I never actually went to the dopamine hit COVID locked down two weeks after I had my daughter. And it was smack bang, the time she woke up and she was an extremely vocal, unsettled little Baba. And that's kind of just She's three now. And that's, that's just kind of been our thing for three years, which is fine. But I think I just started to see that I needed to pull from different little things that brought me joy, essentially. And I kind of started to grab onto these little things that would bring me joy, because I knew that my mental health was better for it. So Jessie was like one of those people. So when she jumped into my DMs, I'm thinking she's onto something here. And I think you're originally approached me because I did say to her, You do not need me for this. Jessie, you can run with this idea. I'm happy to help assist you through the process. Like, because because I'm a primary school teacher. I've read lots of picture books to so many different kids. I love them. I think they're a beautiful way to access information and create like a depth of meaning. I think they're really underutilized resource. So yeah, and I did a few read alouds just on my Instagram, I was reading with my daughter, like some picture books that I liked. And then so she's sort of jumped into my DMs. Yes, this is great. Loving this idea. I can absolutely see where you're going with it. Or you don't actually I don't think you need me. We've yet she convinced me that it was a joint project project. And I'm incredibly grateful for that because I mean, even from last year, the message has definitely evolved. Just sort of organically as we've been going through the process. That's right, like not forced, it's just sort of it's kind of gained legs and momentum. Because I think I mean, this is what this podcast is all about two, moms are super creative. And I mean, when I would think of what creativity was, or an artist was somebody that was creative, I think, someone that could draw or paint really well. And I'm not those things I could not draw, I need a YouTube video with a step by step instructions on how to draw anything, I'm a stick person didn't progress past you, too. It was also getting my head around the fact that creativity and particularly motherboard can look like a whole bunch of different things, there's not one little narrow box that it fits into. So obviously, the picture will make sense for us both. Yeah, I love that. My my backgrounds in early childhood education, so I can relate to, I love the idea of, of, you know, it's so simple, you just think it's a it's a simple book. And but it can express and convey so much and so many, you know, you can choose what layer of meaning you take from it, you know, depending on who's reading it, and I love that it's a children's book, but someone has to read it to the children, you know, so that person is going to get so much out of it. Was that really deliberate that you wanted to? You wanted to make it like that? That was right from the start? That's how you're planning it? Absolutely. It's sort of yes, it's a picture book. And I guess yes, you could read it and think, oh, you know, he's a bit of glitter, and we're going on adventure with this letter. But for those that want to use it as a tool to have those conversations around, you know, mommy's mom's mental health and even around challenging with the caregiving role, you know, we were really strong on having dad be really involved in care work in the book, and also having extended family around. So it was a way to have that conversation around the importance of you know, mental health as in, you know, reacting to that as urgency urgently as we may have, if someone broke a leg, you know, just just, you know, really elevating that conversation, but also challenging really early some of those stereotypes that we have around around care work and the presence of a village so yes, you could read it at any layer. But it was definitely so intentional for us to sort of just yeah, really just wave some really deep meaning throughout and that is where Mary's experience you know, expertise came in to be able to you had with her experience of reading so many books just yeah, be able to make sure that we were adding so many layers and we were talking the other day, Mary and you were saying you know I even picture this hidden you know, the Self Help for moms like section of like bookshop, because we weren't for for the parent to be sitting there reading it to be getting something from it and you know, in some ways feeling you know, really important and validated that they are important. She, I'm going to refer back to a quote that I found on your Instagram, Jesse, if you don't mind, I'll quote you. Everyone does it. Whatever I say these people freak out. So don't it's not it's not bad. It's really, really good. You said I did not like who I was when I became a mum. I dismissed and invalidated my own needs. I judged myself on expectations placed on me by a society that glorifies supermoms and the myth of the perfect mother. And when I read that, I just went boom like that. I honestly, I, I related to that very much. And I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there that relate to that. And that's that thing. It's our expectations. And like you said, the, like the cultural norms that are set up, that we're not supported. We're not and it frustrates me so much I have this this conversation with just about everyone I have on here. Like we're, we're this, we basically keep life going, if it wasn't for us, if we just said not sorry, end of end of everything, we're not going to, we're not going to keep doing this, there would be no more human race. So why, like we're revered in so many senses. But then when it comes to just with just a man, you know, it's like, you lose your identity, you lose your sense of self, you're like, you know, and that is brought on by the way society sees us, and makes me really, really cross. So yes, I love that quote. Not because you went through it, though, like, I'm not saying I loved it, because we can see our experience in it. And that's something you know, Mary, and I feel so strongly about in that. Yes, the level of intensity right now can be intense, but it's very important for us to challenge this so that our children experience it less, and then their children less, we like that, I won't swear I won't like you can swear, you know, I'm just like, there's no fucking way my daughter will be going through this, my son will not be going, you know, it's just you. You can see what needs to change. And yes, it's frustrating. And you can also go, Well, what can I do in my everyday life to challenge that and change it? So it does get easier and continues to get easier? Yeah, I was gonna bounce off of that. And I think that there's a huge puzzle piece of this book, The mom who found her sparkle for us. We are not. And I mean, I had this dropping as I was driving today. And I thought, I need to say this when I'm on the podcasts later, we are not downplaying the importance of maternal mental health. Like we know, we know the statistics. And I think that's the biggest thing too, Jesse and I are well aware of the statistics, not only because the numbers are there, but because we see it, we talk to mothers, we know we hear the stories, and you would as well doing a podcast like this, it's it, there are themes across the board, what we what we're hoping to achieve with the mom who found her Spark, although is yes, there are sometimes bigger issues at play that need, you know, a lot more support. But if we can sort of start to access that sparkle every day, and just do tiny little things, even in the micro moments that we have, which because that's what we get as moms, right, we're not, we don't have an hour, we don't have an hour to get it all together. Sometimes it's that 35 second little window of time or that five minute little window of time. And our thinking behind Sparkle is it's that way, it's at those small micro moments that you can essentially take back for yourself. And spark that joy and that curiosity that we had before we became moms. I mean, we're human beings out there. We're not just moms like as in we want to be just a mom to as in I love being a mother, but I'm a mom. And yeah, I'm a mom. And and it can be all the things like those things don't just disappear, because suddenly I've got a baby that I'm breastfeeding 24/7 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where we find our spark was been there from Well, I would argue from when we were babies ourselves. And when we're actually allowed to tap into that feeling of incredible. The way I think of Spark is it's like that feeling of incredible peace you feel when you've discarded all the shows, in your zone, whether it be with your kids there or without like, it doesn't matter. It can be at any point, but you know, that feeling where it's like your soul and heart sort of aligned beautifully. Take that big breath and be like, okay, yes, this is like right here. Like I can almost touch this. And it's trying to just encourage trying to tap into that as much as possible, even in those small pockets of time, so that you get Yeah, and I think we changed the word to sparkle. We were sort of playing around with vocab and thinking about how to make this language accessible. I kid you can imagine Oh, my game was to spark a bit today. Yeah, mom's feeling a little off what could we do to help you get it back? And you know, it can be a conversation that happens in families and like we just see it is a just a really beautiful invitation to create discussion and spark discussion. And that's what this really is for us. Yeah. I think that's really important because I couldn't hark back to the time when I was a child, I had very little understanding or knowledge about my parents goings on. Like, I knew they were my parents. I knew they went to work I needed, they did things, but I didn't know. You know, I knew my dad like sport. And like, what was going on with them? You know, they were very hiding things. I mean, not saying it was they were like, nasty people hiding things. But you know, it was that was what you did in those days, you didn't share things with your kids. And you were sort of protecting them. In a way, I suppose. That's how they saw it. But these days, like, I feel like I share so much with my kids. And sometimes I can think, Oh, should I really be burdening my kids with all this? But then I think, no, it's real life, you know, at some point, they're going to, I don't know, have relationships where it's gonna be good for them to share how they're feeling. And I think that's really great. This opportunity to actually say the words and check in with people and be like, you know, I can see that you're not feeling like your normal self. As you said, use those words, you know, you lost your sparkle, and how can we get it back? I think that's a wonderful thing. And just on a sidenote, like, with my kids at work, I work in a akindi at the moment, and, you know, teaching kids to actually feel their emotions and name their emotions. Yeah. Like you're saying earlier, Jesse about, you know, sometimes you don't even know the name of what you're experiencing. And then to then say, recognizing it in others, and say, what some ways we can help them feel better or, or however, they're feeling, changing that. And I think that's really important that it's not something that's really been done forever, you know, what I mean? I totally agree. And, you know, my, when I grew up, I don't really ever remember, you know, having any kind of conversation around emotions and feelings. And I mean, I think in myself, like, a lot of people, I grew up with a very busy mom, very, very busy mom. And she would be got, she would work full time, my dad would work full time, but he would have I could see had access to a lot more recreation time than she did. She did everything. But yes, still worked full time she would with task to task to task. And that's what I saw growing up. So obviously, that's what I internalized. But even just two or three weeks ago, we were in the car together. And I said to her, Did you do anything for you when we were little? And she said, No, there wasn't any time. And I knew that. That was that's what I witnessed. But I was sort of just wanting to ask, from her perspective, what her sort of memory of it was, and yeah, she didn't. And this is also from a woman she still had her parents, like, you know, they took care of us helped with us and my dad's parents were around so she even had access to a much bigger village then then I do and she struggled. So it's you know, it is you know, that it's things have changed in that we want our kids to we want them to see us as whole humans within reason. But as humans Yeah, and we want to help them get to know themselves. I know when it comes to feelings and emotions, I have absolutely love helping my son because he's for now tune into himself and I and this is so I never thought this would even be a parenting when moment But about six months ago, or might have been a little bit longer. He actually said to me, Mommy, I'm feeling angry. And do you know how proud I was? That he could name that and express that to me? I just thought I just won today and you know, then we actually had the ability to do some things together that helped him you know, move that emotion but yeah, that's it's a really new new thing really, in the in the scheme of sort of generations, generational parenting and stuff like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a meme or something the other day sort of along the lines of now I know why my mom just wanted to sit in a bedroom alone in the dark. And I just love to hate all I want and I think back to this whole self care that we're sold, like, get the massage and your nails done. I'm like, I don't want to sit in a hairdresser. That doesn't bring me joy. I like short, someone else. That's not where I'm finding my sparkle. Let me lie down below on preferably maybe a bit of music. Stuff that suits me just fine. Because that's how my nervous system feels calm. Yeah. Yeah, we're told even Mother's Day is coming up. And I'm thinking to myself to Hobby, be happy if you just take out my beautiful toddler and it takes all gets rid of all that energy and I just sit on the couch. And yeah, absolutely nothing. You know, I don't want a fancy lunch, I don't want to be taken out. And again, I think get the sparkle side of things. Some Mama's will find it, doing those things, which is beautiful. I say power to you by tapping into what actually like how can you access your own how what's gonna make you feel better? It's not anybody else's story. And that's, that's what we love. We get moms jumping in our DMS, like, this is how I found my sparkle today. And they'll send us a little story or a video or a picture. And I said to Jesse, we just, we just pulled this idea out of thin air. And no idea yet, but it was just this little idea. And we've seen it and now we have people having conversations with us about it because it's important last, yes. Brilliant. You know, it was something what you said Mary just made me giggle because on an episode of Grayson, Frankie, they were doing a flashback to racist races Mother's Day, you know, 30 years before or something and she was away at a hotel for the weekend. And they were like, you were away for Mother's Day? And she said, Yeah, well, it's Mother's Day, not Children's Day. Legally, but it's funny, because as you said, you know, what brings each person sparkle could be very different. But that also could change, you know, day to day, minute to minute as well. But something we love to doing didn't we marry? Oh my goodness, sparkle Tober was just the most fun we have ever had. In the month formally called October. Last year, we we renamed it to sparkle Tober. Because we just wanted to, you know, just to continue that conversation that we've started having with you know, our friends and community that we're all growing on Instagram. So we sort of just invited people to share images or videos of them. Just really just doing things that made them you know, brought them sparkle. And Mary did some fabulous dancing. It was wonderful. Dancer hearts, you can take the dancer out. Not choreographed. Okay, I'd like to point this out. Freelance dancer. Yeah, I don't want to be told what to do. I just need space space on that dance floor. And that's wonderful, because we had people sharing, you know, things they were doing with their kids or just by themselves. And it was just this it was so much fun. Just yeah, to have these conversations with friends and family and just to see them so ugly up about it. So yeah, we'll definitely do that again. It was just wonderful. In your DMS Oh, great. You're a VIP, you'll be the next sparkle. Tober for sure. Thank you. Well, I'll be sure to share it with my community and get them involved. And on that note on Mother's Day, I'll be going to the races with that score. Is it is Mother's Day, not a joke when when it was Mother's Day, I distinctly remember asking her once Well, when's Children's Day? Why don't we get a day and she said to me every day is Children's Day. Now I understand time like Ha I know you like but that was interesting what you said before Jesse because that my mother was very similar. She was always busy always doing and would do it herself. We didn't have quite you know, the village that like she might she moved from Melbourne left her family over there but we had neighbors we had my my dad's parents, but I just remember always doing something unless she was sitting down with a cup of tea. You know, but Yeah, same thing i i had come in before I how I asked her but it was a similar thing. It was like I knew dad went out and played footy and he played cricket and they were his his interests. But mum didn't have anything of her own. That was just what she Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and like, I don't I just think I couldn't survive like that. I could survive. because it's not that I, I very firmly want my children to know who I am. I want my grandchildren to know who I am. And not in a context of service like whilst I am incredibly nurturing and caring and you know, all that's a very high value for me, I yes feel very strongly that they, they also need to see me as, as the whole human that I am. And just being in their life is sort of just is one part. It's a very important part, but it's just one part of who I am. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna take that quote, but you're gonna hear that because that is that it's in a nutshell that's literally it. Like, I feel the same that my boys like I'm I'm very visual with what I like I leave the house to go sing and perform. I know I'm in my studio doing things. And it's like, this is me like like you said, Mary you don't your your passions and the things that you love and your abilities and your gifts. They don't just disappear just because you have. So yeah, I think it's very important, yeah. The saddest thing for me was how long it actually took me to acknowledge them, because all I wanted to ever be was a mom. And I thought, okay, No, Mom. Life goals achieved great, too. And that's now my role. I am secondary to my daughter, she's the most important thing. And that's what I focus on. And obviously, that's just a recipe for disaster. Like it's not going to work. It's not sustainable. And especially I had a daughter, who was for two years of her life, she was awake, constantly, she would wake up, just I would think I had five minutes and not it just wasn't going to happen. Every creak of a floorboard, she would pee. And the more I was pouring into the mothering side, the worse I was feeling, it's just inevitable. I guess that that happens if you're taking no time for yourself. But when we talk about things about what makes a good man, that's what it was. for me. I sacrificed every need every one every everything for my kids. And now that I'm unraveling all this stuff, and pulling back all the layers, I realize how incredibly damaging that is. And that's not something I want to pass to my daughter, why would I want her to think her importance on a priority list is, you know, way down the bottom. That's not That's not a lesson I want to teach. So then it became a, it became a focus to say, Okay, well, no, I am taking that time, I am taking that 10 minutes, I am taking that half an hour and I'm not going to feel incredibly guilty about it every single time I do it, you know, I'm allowed to have a shower in peace. I'm out, but I was I felt so guilty just to jump in the shower, because I knew she would be crying. But I need to show up. I mean, a basic human need. And I'm myself of that. It's, it's just horrible. And I think that and just the conditioning around it all. My mom was the same as yours. You know, same thing. It was limited hobbies. I don't even really know what they were now. Now. She's retired and kind of a bit lost of like, what am I doing for myself? I'm sort of encouraging her now. In her 60s, like Mum, you know, I'm writing this book about like, it could really benefit. Because I do I love her and I want her to see that side. And I think she I think she does and she slowly undoing stories of the 60s, you know, I don't want to be my voice start living. But that is so that's it's a really good point too. It's like it's it's not just for moms who are mothering, actively mothering roles now, is for anyone who's been a mom, or still a mom, you know what I mean? It's like that generation, it doesn't matter how old you are. That's such a good point. It seems like they like you get might get to a certain point and they sort of release I know what my sister and I worry now, probably early 20s, late teens, early 20s. And it's just it, it was like all of a sudden, right? My time and you know, she was you know, hanging out with friends a lot more and going out and doing all of these things and but then, you know, reflecting on that, that obviously that That hurts my heart that she probably wanted to be doing those things, you know, the whole time and then for all of the reasons that we've talked about she she didn't and you know, like it's I don't watch it didn't want that for her. And I've said to her so many times, you deserved more than that. You deserve to be able to do what brought you joy. And I don't know. I don't really know how she feels about hearing that from you know, like, yeah, like, Oh, what do you know? Um, but yeah, you know, like, it's she. We all deserve. We all deserve it. Yeah, that is that is so true you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Mary, do you mind if I ask? You talked about sort of unraveling that, or changing that story for yourself about just needing to be mum, and putting yourself further down the list when you talked about it changing. But was there a sort of a moment or something that triggered you to start to see that in yourself? Oh, you know what, I'm, I've been asked this a few times. And kind of when I reflect, I realized it wasn't one big moment in time. But it was that accumulation of Well, the fact that my nervous system was rattling constantly. And with every cry with every screen with every you know, it was just I felt incredibly triggered. And so I have spoken about this in podcast before, but I experienced like intense anger and rage. I'm sorry, Bubba, Come on, honey. And I didn't know where that rage was coming from. I mean, I've always been like a passionate sort of person. Fiery, I guess it's like the great bloody me you can't get like, we have a bit of warmth and passion when we do things. But I had a temper, I would say, but not that not the level of rage that sort of was coming out of me like it was explosive. Kind of like, what is going on. I'd never experienced it that way before. And then obviously the guilt and the shame pops in. Because you're like I, I'm feeling this way towards the situation of being a mom is the one thing I wanted. And I'm not even appreciating. It's that cycle like that in a talk that, you know, that little person just sitting there talking to me in the back of my mind is horrible, would say horrible things. But it was me doing it to myself, which is the saddest part for me now. So I don't think it was one big moment it was more just recognizing, like, where is this coming from? Why am I having these feelings? I need to pull in some support here, or I need to be looking at things differently. And then it's just a very slow. It's just a very slow one day one hour at a time process. You know, I see Sophie bra. Oh, she's starting a membership. This could be interesting. And that that really was a big catalyst listening to podcasts hear the word Mitra says, Oh, what is that word? I've not heard of this before? You know, and then yeah, it was just that it was just those small, incremental moments that sort of were building and building until I just kind of went no, I this is not my reality. Now I'm not accepting this as my motherhood experience, and I'm not doing it this way anymore. And then just chlorine, chlorine back and I say chlorine, because like, it is a fight you're fighting against, like you're fighting against not only yourself and that inner chatter, but like we talked about before you're fighting against a society that is actively pushing against you and feels incredibly hard. And I guess again, this is why the picture book is just a beautiful combination of this for me, because it is fun still, like, yes, our book is for mums. But the kids are going to enjoy it as well. It's playful. And I think Jessie and I really exude that, like we enjoy that. Like we have fun when I met her in person as like, I've known him my whole life. mucking around, talking laughing like it was it was easy and easy. And yeah, but it's that that like the mom who found this path couldn't have come in 2020 Like it wasn't ready to be here in 2020 we were we were doing our own thing. Like we were battling our own stuff. We were on that journey. We knew each other but not as well then, but we all kind of like unraveling our stuff to eventually kind of joined together in this book. But yeah, it was not something that could have come in earlier. So yeah, it's it's just you just don't get told this before you become a mom, like how much you have to fight against things that you feel sometimes very much like they're set up to just make you fail. You know? You just don't know this. And I mean, I don't know I always think about how we could have done things differently. But when it's your first kid, it's what you're around and what you hear. I wasn't around Dr. Sophie Brockman, I didn't even know she existed. I didn't know people like Jessie existed. I didn't know this podcast would have been a thing like you don't know any of this stuff until you're right in it and have conversations about this a lot. Like how could we, you know, prevention over cure, essentially, like getting earlier? And some people are adamant that no, you just have to be in it to understand, but for me, the teacher salaries, I know, we can be doing better for new moms, because then they're not actively seeking out information at the most vulnerable time in their life. They're not scraping together this web, this support network when they're just sleep deprived, and like a really low point in their life. Like we shouldn't have to be waiting for that. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know then what the answer is, I guess spark was our little way of doing that. Just like the past is your little way of doing it. It's all part of the bigger puzzle, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I tell myself like, because you feel like you want to get out there and shake the chains. Like just do something on change everything. That's that's not going to happen. So it's like little bits, little bits all joined together to make hopefully the big change. Let's try we can only make change at the table we're at that's like that. That's a nice. Yeah, well, I can't take one mark. Is it Abby Wambach? Lennon, Doyle's partner said she did a beautiful big post might have been six, eight months ago. And it was just essentially about making change at the table that you're at. So you have to remember that one that's really good with it was incredibly powerful article. And it's obviously it's stuck in my mind, because you do you want to just you want to shake the chains. But like, but that can feel so overwhelming. So how can I, you know, take a step back from that. And what can I do? What can I do to to make those changes make those incremental changes? Yeah, I think the journey all moms go on isn't that we kind of like get to that point of yes, we know, there needs to be that big structural change. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it, right? But then you go, but I am one person who is at this intense period of my life, like Jesse was talking about before. And I don't have the capacity to pull down everything and start from scratch, like, do that. But maybe if I choose to go out with my feet on the grass, instead of doing the dishes today, or taking a little bit back, you know, maybe when he gets home, I feel confident enough to say, Hey, I just need half an hour in the room. I'll be back out and ready to go. I just need that time to regroup after a whole day. Perfect. So you take it back a little bit, you know, it's like taking just taking the little pieces back. And that's what I said before it's clawing it back. Feels like that's what you have to do. And again, it I don't agree with this is how it is, but it's the reality of it. So just take those little pockets of time for yourself, you know, because you do matter, we talk we are human beings. I mean, I used to teach this to my kids. A human being You're a beautiful person, we respect each other in this room because we are all human beings. And that's why there's no other reason but that because we're human beings all living on this earth and we can respect each other and like I used to teach it and then I become a mom and I show myself zero respect 00 care. Like it No, it just doesn't work again. It's not a sustainable model. It's yeah absolutely. Interesting thing isn't that, like, I was not using it to my advantage prior to becoming a mom, I was just consuming the content. Oh, yeah. You know, and obviously, what do you see of moms these perfectly color coordinated photos, everything put together, no masks, you know, all of that. And then when I started using social media differently, you made adjusted, you know, I gotta say, you start building this web, and you realize, okay, if mothers can use it in this way, perfect, really like a great tool in the toolbox. But I think and that's what we talked about before before you become a mom Um, you're not you're not looking for these words, you're not looking for these things. Because what do we get told? Have the beautiful nursery get the beautiful cost? Decorate the room? Or what? You know, what beautiful prints do you have on the wall, my daughter never went into the car, I ended up getting my friend who had just had a third baby. And I said take it, I hope it gets used somewhere else. I'm glad I'm happy to pass that on. Because we didn't use it, it became just a piece of decoration in my room. And this is a very real reality for a lot of people not to say like some kids will go in the car. That's fine. Mine just never did. And, yeah, there's so many shoulds being thrown at me like what I should be doing, Oh, I must be a bad mom. Because my daughter cries a lot. My daughter is very vocal, I must be a bad mom, because she's not sleeping. Well, I must be a bad mom. And that's why she's doing these things. And it took me so long to flip that around and go, No, it's got nothing to do, mate. She is who she is. And I am just doing the best I can with the support that I have at the time with the information I have. I'm just doing my best. And yeah, I mean, we know this as well, your kids get sent to you for a very real reason. Like, I do believe this. And I really love that you spoke about having that big gap because my daughter is three. So obviously, you know, people are already having you next. And for me, um, sometimes I sometimes find it really hard to get my head around it because I'm going to be thrown back in that am I going to be able to cope? Like I know, I have a better support network. Now I know I've resourced myself better. But I know. I know what it can be like to it anymore. And I, you know, I consider all of these things. So I find that tricky. So I love that you talked about a gap because that is something I'm seriously thinking about? Like, am I supposed to have a bigger gap? Where do I sit with that? And very much just trying to get rid of the hole what you should be doing? Because there are no rules here. Like, yeah, there are rules that we have to follow can look different for every person. Yeah, and that was something that I like, between having my kids, obviously, seven years ago and past I was a lot older, and experienced a lot more life. But I did start working in childcare. And in that time, and that was, for me, the biggest thing that I learned that every baby is different. And it really doesn't matter what you do. Like, you know, parents would have instructions of you know, feed them to sleep with a bottle, put them in the awake with a dummy, wrap them, don't wrap them, put them on their side, put them on their belly, like the nurse, like cuddle them, make sure they're asleep before you put them all this sort of stuff. And I just opened my eyes to like there really, there's no right or wrong, because that's that was in my head at that point. Like I'm quite a black and white kind of person, like very, like, I don't know, a structure routine. I like predictability. And so having a baby was like the opposite of all that, you know. And I talked myself into that I was gonna have this baby that was gonna be on this schedule, and whatever. And if not, then yeah, now that I know, this child, I've known, you know, for 15 years, he was never going to be on the schedule, like that kid does not do it. So I had this book that I'd written in, when I was sort of thinking about having another one, like, all the things that I would do different and it was like, Don't be hard on yourself. Don't be hard on your baby, you know, like, sit and cuddle them for ages, like in the books that said, No, you can't cuddle them. After so many weeks, they get used to it, and then they will want you all the time. It was ridiculous. Isn't that God, like? And I read? I think back on those times. And I think my god like that. I don't know, if there's been long term damage done to our relationship because of it. You know, we'll never know the stuff that you think God being told not to hold your child in case they might want you. That's life. People want each other, you know, we want connection we want. We want people and yeah, so I had this massive, long list of things that I would do. And it wasn't necessarily all this practical stuff. It was how I would be kinder to myself. And the expectations that I wouldn't put on myself like breastfeeding. I had to breastfeed my first child. And I went through hell, because I had this idea in my head that you had to breastfeed your child exclusively. And society thing you know, and I remember times of just being in tears, because he wouldn't latch properly. And my husband's like, ah, do you think I should go get some formula? And I was like, No, don't you dare get formula I can do this, you know, and I was sending myself insane. And the best thing that ever happened to me was that when my baby second baby was born, he was really tiny really underweight and he was in one of those little hot box things. I don't know what the directories we know what great, that's fine. But you know, they gave him formula to keep him alive to my milk came in. And it was like it was out of my hands, which was wonderful. You know, it was just taken away from me that I had to put this pressure on myself. And I noticed actually Just see if you want to talk about it or not. I'm not sure because I haven't asked yet. But in that quote that I read, there was a next bit about doing it differently the second time. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, I am. As I sort of said earlier, I, I, my mental health was atrocious after Finley was born. And I remember sort of sitting in my GPS office, and she was wonderful. She was so wonderful. I was sitting there with a coffee with America's coffee. And my mom was sitting next to me, holding Finley bought me in this beautiful GP was going through the questions, you know, checking in on my mental health. And before I could really say, match my mom, because we were leaving with her at the time, because we were renovating to sell. So my partner and I became parents under her roof. We brought family home from the hospital there, like he grew up the first two and a half years of his life there. And yeah, sort of before I could answer much, my mom, you know, really reassuringly that unknown Yeah, but just as fine. You know, there's, there's not a great deal of pressure on her. I'm doing x y Zed. So, obviously, at that point, I was just like, Yeah, I'm fine. But I wasn't fine. I, you know, I'd had a very traumatic birth. And I think because of that, I had this fierce love for this little boy, my little world changer. His name is Scottish. And it means fair warrior. And I think the way he entered the world definitely, definitely reinforced that that was the correct name for him. I had this fierce love for him is protecting the small protected Mama Bear. But I was really struggling to enjoy the day, today, of you know, the changing bombs and things like and I you know, I could follow a structure, but just sort of feeling, you know, fulfilled. It just wasn't sort of there for me at first. And I was very, very disconnected, very, very disconnected. And like I said, I was very, very mentally unwell. And it wasn't. You know, as I said earlier, it wasn't until I started to actually focus on my needs. Again, I remember that particular moment, I was about Finley, who was maybe eight months old. And I said to my mom, can I go to a cafe? And so she had him. And I went to this cafe. I sat down with my laptop, I called ahead of time, I was like, Can I book a table with a PowerPoint? Because I had my videos about 20 years old. So she has to I've got a new one now. The new new laptop. Yeah. But yeah, my way I could not use it without being plugged in. So I had to call him time. Can I please have a table anyway? So booked me in had my name is I was I sat there. And I just wrote, I wrote and wrote and wrote for about two hours. And when I got back in the car, just how just, you know, sparkly, I feel I was absolutely on top of the world that I got to sit and do something that I really enjoyed. And it was, I think I I reviewed a jay Shetty podcast, and it was just, you know, trying to reflect on how it was relevant for my life and, and then just wrote a few other bits and pieces. And it just was just absolutely phenomenal. But I think as well, I did. You know, I did want to sort of come across as someone who had it all together as well, you know, I did it I very much because my mental health isolated myself from thin friends and extended family, I remember, we really didn't get out of the house very much at all. So yeah, fast forward that few years when I'd really started to get to know more about who I was as a mom and what brought me joy. That was when you're leaving into Esther, I really decided I really knew I needed to make sure that I had that creative practice, integrated and that I had spoken to people around me about what that could look like, just to Yeah, to really contribute to making sure I stayed mentally well, you know, regardless of what the birth was like that I was, you know, very sort of maintained that that wellness afterwards and I mean, SS birth was awesome. It was I felt incredibly powerful like after her birth, and I can't downplay how much of that additionally contributed to my mental health. Yeah, just not even remotely the same as the first one. But I think another really important thing was that Mitch and I So we were all we were living in our new house that he actually built, which was wonderful. So our kids get to say, Daddy built this house. So that's so lovely. But we, we let go of the things. So, you know, washing would pile up, but hey, they will clean, it was fine. I didn't need to go away. Maybe the dishwasher didn't go on, you know, toys stayed out, I let go of what we were talking before about, you know, perfectly curated Instagram feed I let go of that. I was like, that's not me. That's not gonna happen. Because we sort of stayed in our bubble a little bit. But we most definitely, we had meals already in the freezer ready to go. And, you know, I, I'd made sure that the only was still out of there, go out doing fun things with family a few days a week. So I just had that time with their star. And yeah, so I, I really intentionally looked at what state what kept me mentally well, and then incorporated that as best I could. But it didn't mean that I didn't have down moments and down days, and that's what I made sure I shared as well on on my Instagram, because I didn't want it to be this highlight reel of Yes, I'm fine all the time. I wanted it to be much more, you know, vulnerable and real. I guess. Just just more real, have that experience that? Yes, we will. We will have some incredible moments, but there will also be some challenging, challenging quotes as well. So yeah, I think those are probably the key things I did differently. But we talk about laughter and being silly. And that is something that it's, it's incredibly important to me to incorporate fun into, you know, anything that that I do and going back to Dr. Sophie Brock, remember what I did. What sort of led me to her is that a friend? Just before her membership, she had a course. And I think it was deliberate. And a lot of yes, in part of liberate was you had to write your motherhood manifesto. And for me, the top thing I wrote and I still have it was around integrating fun and silliness into my day and my parenting. So yeah, that was that's been something, I guess leading into it. I wouldn't have thought about but as Mary said, you know, these little things that continue to happen and snowball. Yeah, so I guess that's in a snapshot, you know, in a really brief way things I might I did a bit differently. No, that's awesome. And I love that, that, that fun, because I feel like you can get bogged down so much in the day to day and the grind and you can actually forget, you know, to be light hearted and enjoy yourself and and and I think that also helps your relationship to with your partner, if you can actually attorney then you're not as grumpy as always, and you can have that, you know, that fun that you would have had before you had the kids? I guess you reminded of that. Yeah, well, we actually the other week, my mom had them both of ours for the full day, a full day, which had not happened outside of you know, having to work. And I said to me it we can like look at each other, and like talk to each other. And it was so it was so funny. We watch movies, we went and had lunch and wine and then we come back and watch more movies. That is awesome. Yeah, so it was just it was wonderful because I mean we can sometimes forget in the busyness and you know the depletion sometimes of it to to nurture those relations off. Absolutely I mean I've I've done it many times so it was lovely to just go oh yes hello Yeah, it's easy to take each other for granted this for sure. Mary I want to come back to something you've said a couple of times and I've got to jump on it now about mom guilt. How do you feel about it now? After you know you shared your experience about not feeling like you could have a shower or and that sort of stuff? What What are your thoughts on it in these days? Oh, entirely, entirely different. So I mean, I still feel it occasionally. Sometimes, I think it's inevitable that we'll feel it to some extent, just the same way, I believe dads would feel guilty about something as well, just the normal sort of human experience of feeling guilt. But in terms of actually being a mom and taking that time for myself, no. So I guess it's twofold. I haven't done a lot of that conditioning around what I'm allowed to do, or whatever, you know, and what will make me feel good. And I've also communicated to hubby very explicitly. And I mean, like, very explicitly, all Mary would have been that person that sort of didn't communicate it properly, and then kind of let it fester in the background, and then went quiet or eventually flew off the handle, and he would have no idea what I was upset about, or what was going on. And so I guess the teaching skills coming up, like very explicit and direct of when you come home sometimes and I'm fed up and I've had a day, I just, I'm going to take half an hour, and I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about it. I don't want to feel bad about it. I just need you to take her and just do what you need to do. And I will repeat when I feel like I will reappear when I'm more than ready. And yeah, no, I don't feel guilty about that at all. Because I'm with my daughter still sort of 24/7 She's not in any type of care. Again, as you can hear she's back again with her animals and just wanting to make an appearance in our podcast. Because I am with her all the time. I think it goes back together those little moments that I can get and finding. Like finding things we both enjoy doing, right? Like I love going up to the lookout around my area just because it's peaceful, and I enjoy it. And she loves it. She's kind of plotted around or to the birds. And I think so make it a priority to go. Yeah, well, we can go up to the lookout and we can spend time together there. And I don't need to feel guilty about like, no, everybody's getting their needs met. Right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot about how we can create Win Win situations as well. It's not always going to be the case. Of course, I go to many a library, dance class and art class and playing groups and gymnastics today. Actually, I can make it a priority to go. Yeah, I can talk to mums there. And I can still make it an enjoyable experience for me as well. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't feel as guilty. I say no, a lot more. My family lives in Sydney. So sometimes have you will want to go see in laws on like me, I'm actually not going to come today, you take it out, you take home and you're gonna have a great time. And I don't have to feel bad about that. I don't need to be everywhere, all the time. Because my risk matters. I explained it to a friend the other day as I know what it feels like to have a rattling nervous system constantly. So when it's rattling, and once you recognize how to calm that and feel at peace, you can't you can't go back I accept nothing less essentially. So the guilt kind of dissolved with that. Yeah, over time, essentially kind of dissolved, I think on its own. Because I realized I was a better mom, a better wife a better person when I was taking care of those things. So why should I feel guilty about that's a positive? Absolutely. I'm just trying to do a podcast with a three year old would have brought me incredible, like anxiety years ago, but now I find him just roll with the punches. Yeah, that's such my role model marry with that, I mean, so many times with us working together. Because I guess I feel, you know, you've got that still within me and it's dissolving, but you know, that that sort of people pleasing that, you know, validation, like and wanting to move things quickly. Yeah. Mary has been so wonderful at just helping me take a breath. And, you know, not move faster than we need to and just, you know, what, it's fine that doesn't need to be done today. And so, even though you know, I understand some of that, you know, the theory understood it theoretically, about you know, how to come on over system and, and I'm relatively okay with it. I still sometimes need that prompt of, hey, how about we just take a breath and let's just push this back. But I will say on the flip side, Jesse goes fast and I go slower, as in not fast in a bad way. But we've probably we meet beautifully in the middle so I really need her to give me a bit of a kick. It's been so perfectly. It's been very complimentary as an IT because your mirror will be like, Oh, look, how about we consider x y Zed. And that's been a very crucial element to, you know, maybe the story or what we're doing. But if I'd wanted to speed on past that, it wouldn't have been addressed in a way that gave it the most kind of meaning and impact. Yeah, so, yeah, we've needed each other. And I mean, there's been some times to when, you know, we've wanted to consider something. And I said, Oh, no, no, excellent. You know, let's go. And then we have, but we've needed both to be able to bring this project to you to where it is. So yeah, we perfectly complement each other. Really, it sounds amazing. Isn't it funny hate people, you just meet people in your life like that, like just the randomness of everything that's had to happen to get you to get the point where you're at? It's just, I love stuff like that. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, within, like, straightaway, Mary and Mitch, were just, you know, giggling with each other. And because he's very cheeky, and Mary is totally on board that train. So, you know, like, they were bouncing off each other. And our kids were playing wonderfully, but because we have similar similar parenting values, like we could perfectly support them in whatever they were feeling in any moment. So it was, it was easy for that reason, as well, which is sometimes half the battle with Yeah, that's the how to search for it. parenting styles are afflicting it can be tricky. You know, like everyone's doing the best they can. So yes, I absolutely acknowledge that. But it was yes, it was very useful. But yes, it was a random series of events. Yeah. No, love it. I just love it. So where are you? At? what point are you at with the book at the moment? Oh, do you want to talk about that America? I'm being doctor at the same time because I was multitasking Mark. I'm a vet. I'm helping some animals here. Do they seem to be a yes. At all? Um, yeah. So basically, we have an illustrator over in the US who is very hard on working on our storyboard. We've sort of finalized that, essentially. And she's got sketches. So it's so interesting getting set the updates, and you realize what she's done a few more pages and the words that we've said, and the description we've given her actually come until it's real. So yeah, so we're still hoping for an end of June release. And I think we're on track with that. But also open to the fact that, you know, if it pushes out to July, we're okay with that as well. But yeah, it's just a lot of back and forth with the illustrator now. So the thing is, I sometimes feel sorry for our Illustrator, because she's incredibly patient, and we throw a lot at her, we really do. Traditionally, you know, if you were to because we're self publishing, if you were to actually get a published, you would send a manuscript, they would essentially choose an illustrator, your book would appear illustrated. But yeah, we have very big ideas of what could be on each page, we just can't actually bring it to life ourselves. So you're trying to get her to kind of understand that has been like a journey. And you know, it's hard when you got something in your head, and you're trying to really explain it, but she's, she's doing beautifully with that. So we're um, yeah, I think I feel like we're on track. She's kind of really pushing along now. Yeah. We're just sort of thinking about what the front cover should be. We're going back and forth. But that's starting to make more sense. And then, yeah, we have, we had run our Kickstarter campaign back in November to December of last year, and raise what we raised $8,000 For our book to be published. So very interesting. You Yeah, so we kind of ran this thinking, oh, yeah, we'll get some support. Like, we know, we've got some people out there that want to see this book come to life. But then we got an incredible amount of support and managed to fund it through that. So yeah, there's people with some pre orders and things like that. And we just kept sort of slowly pushing the message, but Jesse does work as well. I've got Missy with you do it in the pockets of time. Yeah. But we could be doing more maybe. But I don't know. We're just sort of doing it at our own pace, you know, and it's all sort of making sense like Jesse said, like if we had persevered and tried to get this book out like already or even last year or something. I just, it might not have had the depth and the layers to it, as it has an Yeah, so we're just we're just sort of doing our thing. And I'm excited to hold it in my hands is a big part of me that thinks is not real. It's real. It's real. It's happening. I've seen the storyboard and I think, yeah, that's us, like, this is somebody else. We, we are doing this, we just need to hold it first. Yeah. But there's been so many beautiful moments to it. Because Mary and I have spoken so much, it's, we will be so excited to hold it. But we have had so much fun, doing basically every step of the process, you know, from coming up with a manuscript to starting to share online to spark October to putting together a Kickstarter, which is a feat in itself. And then to having that actually be successful. I think we were will be one or two days out from the deadline. And we will basically refresh it. You know, I was at home for the day doing, you know, parenting, but always like refreshing it. And this donation come in, that was the exact amount we needed to kick it over. And I was like, grab the phone call Mary. She said she's looking at going, you must have fun. Anyway, it was just that in itself means. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And I love that you guys, you're not, you're not pushing it. Like, it's a thing that happens. As a you know, what's the word in conjunction with your life, like it fits into your life? So then hopefully, it doesn't cause you know, extra stress or, you know, because, yeah, we've all got that already. So, you know, it's just something enjoyable. And, you know, yeah, keeps you're gonna cut that out. But oh, no, I say, um, all the time. But yeah, it's a thing that you guys can experience and enjoy and look back on that the process was enjoyable, you know? Yeah. And that, for me, it's always it's very important. I have to, it's not just the outcome that I need to be, you know, in love with, it's the process of getting to that outcome. The act in itself has to bring me joy felt really to be to be worth it. At the other end, so, yeah, because I guess, you know, for me, it's your being able to access our creativity. You know, it is it's a stress relief. And but I think, though, too, it doesn't always owe us anything, you know, in this moment, it's bringing me joy, it doesn't necessarily have to have that tangible, tangible outcome. I don't, it's so interesting to think how many hours we would have spent on it, and I would do it again, I wouldn't get Yeah, my husband actually said that you're saying is how many hours? Do you think you spent? I said, I don't know. I mean, I was doing it with a with a tablet tucked under my arm. You know, I'm a night owl Jesse's an early riser. So I would be sending stuff in a Canva document. She'd get it at 5am and reply and that sort of that we worked it. But yeah, he asked that any any made this joke lots of you know, you can be famous with this book. I said, my intention? Yeah, sorry, guys. I have no intention of being I don't want to be famous. In fact, if I just have one man that reads it and goes, that's a little bit better. And it reminded me that, you know, I do matter now, like I can focus my thoughts on life. Like, I'm winning. And it's so cliche to say it that way, but that genuinely is how we're thinking about it. Like, we're not trying to get anything from it. It's not it's just, it's just an expression wrapped up in a picture book. For others to enjoy. And that's it. It's like a see, like, for me to him. Finley doesn't really care now too much. But one day, I'm sure both of them will know more. And I mean, for me to just be able to, you know, give that to my children. What's legacy? See, you know, so exactly what Mary said, you know, for just even if one mom reads it and resonates with it, and maybe feels empowered to make some changes in her life or ask for what she wants or needs, and then for our children to me, maybe. Yeah, you know, I will not see coming back to what I was saying before my children who know me absolutely, yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's so exciting. Good on you girls. I'm really excited for it. Sorry, we have to be best place for people to follow along. And you mentioned about pre orders. Can people pre order or is that was that just on the Kickstarter thing. We'll we've just got to sought that out. So yeah, we're, we're in the process of making sure that people can can do that ahead of time. But we are having the most fun over on our Instagram we marry out at the mom who found her sparkle, so it's just our joint one. We do things on our separate ones and often posted there as well. And we pop up a lot sometimes, although we might disappear for a little while, then we pop up. Again, we this is how we're rolling with it. But yeah, the mummy found a sparkle is where you find everything book related, essentially. Excellent. I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes so people can click along and follow the journey. Oh, that's right. It's so lovely to have you both on today. Thank you so much for having me. And unmuting every. It's, it's been wonderful. That's been great. And all the best with it. I really hope it's it's, I don't know that feeling when you do get it in your hands. It's like this amazing moment for you both, I think. Yeah, wonderful. And I will definitely be getting a copy of myself. So I think adding it to my collection of spoken to people on the podcast is pretty cool. You would have a wonderful collection of things based on the beautiful conversations. You've had lots of lovely books. I'm very, very fortunate actually, this feels like a sort of an off side of like an unexpected side of talking to lots of people is is I have just collected lots of amazing books. Dream actually. So yeah, so we're looking forward to add your book tour at some point in the very near future. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jen Lush South Australian singer/songwriter S1 Ep02 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jen Lush is a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia, A mum of 3, we chat about the shock of becoming a mother in a way she never expected, how her children inspire her and manifest in her art, and how guilt can serve a purpose. **This episode contains discussions about birth trauma, infant illness, grief and postnatal depression** Jen - website Podcast - instagram / website Read The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Music used by permission from Jen Lush , Suvome and Cat Bird Dog When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Today, my guest is Jen Lush. She's a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia. Much later, it seemed Welcome to the show. Jen, thank you so much for coming on today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's really good to be on the couch having a Yak, I'm obviously quite familiar with you and your work, would you give us a bit of a rundown on who you are, what you do, what you've done in the past, for those who might not be familiar with you and your work? Okay, um, well, I've been practicing some form of art. I feel like probably for most of my life, but I started off in dance and theater. That was the degree that I did at university, and then kind of moved into music at random at the same time as I was at uni, was in my first band before that I'd been singing with my dad and his folk band, ended up touring with that and playing music all over the place for quite a few years. And sort of gradually phased out dance and theater and focus more on music and more in the more recent years. So I kind of do, I suppose, I went from doing electronic music to gradually drifting into more acoustic and folk related stuff that kind of changed sort of ties back into more of the music that I was probably raised listening to. And now I have a band that I'm about to release my second studio album with. But prior to that I've been in various other bands and Duo's and trios and various manifestations over the last 20 years or so. Awesome. I would love to ask you more about your trip hop trio that you were in. Can you first of all save a name? And because I don't want to say it because you get it wrong. And no. Well, it's called survival it was called survive home. A lot of people call it servo may or Salome and weren't really sure. So one of those reasons why you should never call a bear name is a word that actually doesn't exist in your life because people have no idea it's like some travel. You're in Japan and London with you group. Yeah, so we made two albums. We and a couple of singles and things outside of those albums. We we launched those albums in Adelaide, made them in Adelaide and launched them in Adelaide. And then we traveled to by way of Japan. I think we went to live in England at that time. And so we lived and played in England for a few years. And then yeah, and then we kind of gradually brought it to a halt but I think that must have gone on for about maybe 10 years. That was we were heavily inspired by listening a lot to say Portishead Massive Attack. Loads of electronica you know, lamb, you name it all those 90s selectronic Patriot pop stuff, and tricky. There were lots and and so that's kind of where that kind of sprung out of, I suppose. I really love the idea of having very minimal musical back grounds to like in terms of the like, it was often just a drum sample and like a little bass line really. And I love creating music just to those very simple elements. I feel like you know, just making up a song around those things that you're handed, it's pretty fun. Still do a little bit of that with some German dance music producers in Frankfurt, I think they are at the moment I did that when I was in England, and I'm still doing a little bit of it. Now, they still call me up and want me to want me to lay down some ideas. I don't actually perform the final cut of the vocals I get, you know, young, spunky, German people to do that. But I still like to change. So yeah, I like like crossing over with different genres, I think. I think it's kind of a cool thing to, you know, I don't really have a favorite genre, really. So whatever, whatever comes out at the time. So you were in that band with typing lunch, when you guys were obviously married. So how did you guys meet? Was it through music that you met? Initially? No, we met we're not we're pretty young. I was still in school when I met Tobin down at Yankalilla. So his, my parents were I was living at the time was in Yankalilla, and grew up there and went to school there. His parents live out at wiping a beach or on a farm out there. And they're farmers. And he went to school at Victor and then herb ray in town. And we crossed paths at the local drop in center, which was run by the United church youth group. And they would have Friday night and Saturday night activities for wayward young people with nothing to do in a place like Yankalilla and Normanville, where the only thing to do is go and jump off a jetty or sit under the jetty or walk along the jetty or catch them Tommy's off the jetty. Now, there wasn't a lot to do in Yankalilla for young people at that time. And so the church were pretty proactive about getting some activities going. So we'd, you know, I'd meet down there with my friends. And, you know, in between games of table tennis and having a crack on the drum kit, you'd make pancakes or go on an excursion to a local bowling place or something like that. And it was at that place that I met Tobin, who was helping to run it with taking over from his brother at the time, who was getting some training interstate and Tobin took over one time, and he just wandered in. And it was the only person I'd seen in a long time that I didn't know because in small towns like Yankalilla, NAMA Ville, everybody knows everybody. And I decided quite some time before that, that I wasn't going to go out with anyone from my local town. Not just because I was an arrogant I don't know. Aspirational young lady, but also, that I think everyone knows everyone. And I pretty much decided that, that they probably wouldn't like me, and I certainly didn't think I had any kind of future with anybody at my school. And so yeah, he walked in, and I thought, holy crap, who's this? I don't know you. That's an unusual thing in itself. And also, he was incredibly dashing, and kind of dressed like a bit of a punk with these ripped up jeans with the Union Jack sign up behind and these, you know, really high, high laced up docks and messy hair and stuff. And he was working as a farmer on his parents farm for a bit while he was trying to work out what to do. And so we started hanging out. And I think the first thing he said to me was, you want to come and see my skateboard. And you said, that's good. And I spent a lot of time sitting around in car parks watching him do skating while I sort of sat there with my book and had a read and hung out. Yeah. And then he was interested in arts things. And I've always always been interested in arts things. So we spend our weekends, taking photos of crazy stuff, setting up these weird scenarios and taking photos of him and stuff. He got into photography, and then filmmaking and finance so a lot of painting as well. Where I went down the performing arts road that I was already well and truly doing by that stage. Lots and lots of ballet and, and dance and theater and stuff. So I went down that road and he went down he is and we've we've pretty much got together when I was 17. So we've been together a long time. So awesome. That is so great. So you've like you've you've these Two Worlds came together over the skateboard. And then you sort of blossomed with sharing all this art together. Overnight, I thought I was going to be a farmer's wife, I really didn't expect that it was going to end up in this in this very much art driven world that we're both in. So it was lovely, a lovely thing in the end. So when did you sort of start to think, well, we're going to start a family? And did you sort of think then what's going to happen to your music and your art? Like, was that sort of a conscious sort of thing to think, well, how's this gonna fit in? See, yeah, um, we were in England at the time, and I got pregnant without actually realizing I was pregnant. So it wasn't really super planned it was, we had this long view plan that we'd be married for 10 years, and then get home and then start having babies. So it was around about bang on that when we when we did start having babies, but it wasn't because it was through any great planning. It was really just that I had, well, there's a long health kind of scenario. But I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries some time before this, so maybe six years or five years before I was pregnant. And so I was told that I probably wouldn't find it easy to be pregnant. So I wasn't on any kind of contraception anyway, hadn't been getting periods or anything like that. And then I decided to because I didn't really want to go down the road of fertility treatment eventually, or anything, I thought I'll do some research and through my own, you know, layman's, slightly ignorant researching tactics, I found it, you could buy going on a diabetic diet, a diet that specifically important for people with diabetes is a similar chemistry thing that's going on with insulin hormones and stuff. And so I went on this, I took I put myself on this very strict kind of low GI diet thing. And, and adhere to that for two years. And then my period started all by themselves, and everything seemed to be clockwork. And it was by the second period, I got pregnant. So all by myself. So it was nice to, to try and remedy some of those things going on in my body without real medical intervention, just by trying to change what my habits were around food and stuff. So that was good. So long story short, I was pregnant and not realizing it. My first I thought I was just sick. I just thought I was had the flu, and was constantly throwing up and I thought, I've just got some kind of food poisoning first. And then I thought I had the flu. And then my boobs were getting kind of bigger. And I was like, this is weird. And I took a pregnancy test and, and it came out positive and I was at least 10 weeks pregnant by them. So by the time I had my first scan, I was 15 weeks pregnant. I'd already passed in the first trimester without even realizing. Okay, if you just breeze through it, no worries. Yeah. And so And during that time, I was heavily involved in a theater working in theater and music. I was doing some music stuff as a acoustic duo in England with another guy and also some more electronic music stuff as well. I don't think we're doing survive anymore by that stage. And I was doing a lot of theater work with local theater people in involved in shows and things like that. And I thought that in my in my wisdom that nothing much would change once I'd had a baby I thought I'll just have the baby and then he or she will will be backstage with me while I do this show that I was committed to doing and I'll just feed in between scenes or interval or before and after the show. And then I jumped back on I had this I really did have this as as a as an idea. And no one seems to tell me any any otherwise because no one else I knew was had had babies really I wasn't around a lot of people that had children at that time. I even had agents who were gearing up for me to be cast in roles that needed a mother with a brand new newborn baby so scenes in TV and stuff like that, but I was doing little bits of so I was ready with agents, you know, at my beck and call ready for whenever I was ready to show up and do some baby and mummy kind of things on TV. So it was with a great big shock to me to my system when that went completely Yeah, yeah. And all of my expectations for for myself and my art and my work were utterly changed. The minute he was born. Yep. Did you have him in your in the UK when he hadn't? Are you back in Australia? Yeah, so I was in the UK and he was born at St. Mary's Hospital as Orlando, who's now 16. So 16 years ago, I went into labor, but much like all the women in my, my family, my sister and my mom, turns out that we're not able to deliver babies vaginally, it needs to be a cesarean or nothing. There is no option there need to be less than five pounds in size. But if we're if we're going to do that has something to do with our anatomy. We're all the same. But unfortunately, they like you to go through the process of labor first, just so you can be sure that that's the case. And Orlando was stuck. And I was in pretty dire situation where I nearly didn't make it and neither did he. And there was an emergency and it was it was a mess. It was a complete disaster. To the point where he was diagnosed at six months with cerebral palsy, right hemiplegic cerebral palsy and and was not in an excellent way for quite a while the first year of his life. He was very ill a lot of the time. And we came home. By the time he was three months old. Back to Australia. So we've been here since. So that was a really different different way into motherhood. That's probably what I was hoping. What I expected. And certainly those agents that were calling me soon after he'd been born were given short shrift. And there was no longer going to be any swanning into any kind of TV studios with my new one. Yeah, we're gonna say, Yeah, you did. It wasn't just the change of life for you immediately in terms of your, your art and your work. But also the the challenges involved with Orlando with the, with the issues you were faced with him. So it was this double whammy that you got? Yeah, it was it was terrifying. Never before have I ever since have I been through anything that traumatic. And certainly for him, going through it himself. He was a baby experiencing trauma as well, because that was a very traumatic way for him to start with seizures. And with a range of medical things going on when he was first born. I don't think he was breathing when he was born, either. So there were all kinds of weird things going on in that hospital that night. I remember John Howard just been reelected and watching that on the screen. And I was in this ward with all of these other women who had just had babies and everyone had their babies. And I didn't know he was in intensive care. And I didn't know at that stage what was wrong. I thought that we're going to bring him back down to me in the night because it was very early days. So I'm watching John Howard get reelected. And he wasn't my first choice for for reelection. So I was thinking that's a bit crap. And then about I don't know, two in the morning, maybe a nurse came down and said, I'm really sorry, but we're not going to be able to bring your baby down. He's had a seizure and and he won't be joining you right now. And it was brutal. It was actually brutal the way that I was told that and I couldn't move because I'd had a cesarean and I was unable to actually get out of bed. Oh is when you've had as Aryan that's an emergency. You might have been through this. But it's, it's no joke, is it and you can't move your body is bruised and battered. And it's takes quite some time to heal. So I couldn't Yeah, and that was before the time of me having mobile phone or anything like that. So I couldn't contact over and I couldn't you know, I was just stuck in this room in my babies like three floors above and I just thought this is the pets. So it took about our content minutes for me to maneuver myself gradually to get some help in the morning and get a message to Tobin so it was just a really weird start to motherhood actually. Yeah, absolutely. So I can understand you came back to Australia, you would have had a lot more support here. Your family's here Yeah. Which obviously you needed around you at that time. Yeah. So we did, we came back Tobin's work finished house that we were leasing was over the lease and Orlando was born and not well, so yeah, all the pointers, were saying, go home, go back to Adelaide. And we're all the family was. And and that was the best thing we ever did. It was a wonderful decision. But at the time, it felt really hard, because we invade our life for five years in London. And it was a really strange thing to do, to be unemployed and to be drifting and a bit anxious. But, but, of course, with all the support that we needed here, as new parents, so that was good. And Lando needed to have the services, and it has needed the services that Adelaide can offer. And he's, he's been very well looked after, by by Nobita Children's Services and a range of other therapies that the that are here, and that certainly wouldn't have been able to be accessed in London. So yeah, it was a decision. But it did change everything in terms of art. For me, I stopped everything I did actually try at one point, I vaguely remember contacting an agent here to try and maybe do some part time bits and pieces, which was a folly, it was a folly of an idea, there was no way that I was going to be able to rock up to a casting at six in the morning, or even a shoot at six in the morning, after dropping my child at childcare with people who wouldn't know what to do around his specific needs at that time. None of that was possible anymore. And in the end, I didn't want to anyway, I needed to be at home. And my my job became being a therapist for at least the next full time, or at least the next five years. You know, it was spent doing that. Yeah. So throughout this time, did you find that you you got the support that you needed yourself? Like you talked about Orlando having the support with the different services? Did you? Did you find that you were supported? In all the ways that you needed to be? That's a good question, Allison, I I have to admit that. Probably not. So fortunately, you know, I'd had 10 years of relationship with Tobin that was solid. And if that hadn't been the case, I think we would have been in a bit of trouble, I recommend that part of it saved me. And the family around us was also vitally important at that time. I've got sister and brother and Tobin's got a brother here too. So it was very much a family. thing, but there was a lot of grief going on at the time. And I think that psychologically, I probably could have done with some outside help. Now, if that had happened, I think I'd be calling up the closest counselor and getting because I've since had counseling and found it to be incredibly useful for other things, you know, at that time, for some reason, it just wasn't. So something that came up. I remember having a massage though, back in England, before we even made it back here I had a massage with a friend who's a therapist, and she said, I think you're I think you need to have a massage and I'm going to I'm going to get stuck in. So lie down on the bed and get going. And so she started and and this is probably one of the single most revealing things to me about where I was at at the time, and probably where I was still at for quite a while. And she started to massage me and there's something about trauma being sort of locked in the body. It's a visceral, physical thing. It's not just the heart thing or head thing or whatever. And this became really clear to me she started messaging me and I started to feel nauseous. I thought I was going to vomit through the hole that my face was in. I thought oh, I'm in danger of being sick, I'm going to be sick and I started to sort of shake and I thought no, I can't be here anymore. I can't be here and I started to have a bit of a panic because I think she was starting to kind of get into some spaces and unlocked some things and and I said I've got to go I've got to go and I could feel my it'll kind of building up behind my eyes and my head this force that I didn't know what was going to happen. And she said okay, and I just ran off and I ran into the bathroom and I fell on the floor and I'm not one for sitting on floors of bathrooms even the cleanest and it was a clean bathroom. But it's not really my my game But I remember falling on the ground. And I remember, the noise that came out to me was like an animal. And it was kind of like a, like a scream, roar. thing. And I wanted to be quiet because I didn't want to hurt it, you know, here in the household to be disturbed where I was, but um, yeah, out it came this great, great big noise. Yeah. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of grief. You know, I've, I've since read lots of things about this. And I remember one at the time reading, when I learned it was about one. And I'm reading this thing about the analogy of somebody going on a plane to go on a holiday in your pack, and you're preparing, you get organized. And you know, where you're going, and you're excited, you look forward to the food that you're going to try. And you think about the weather that you're going to get there. And you maybe you've booked a beautiful place to stay, and there might be a pool, and you know, and you're planning all of these lovely experiences. And then halfway through the trip, the pilot says I'm sorry, but we're actually going to be landing in somewhere else, maybe, you know, as Becca Stan, or something like this, where you've never been in certainly wasn't what you were planning on. And you land and everyone's in shock. And they're saying, When are we going to leave? When are we going to leave? You know, we should be able to make an X flight out of here, you know, but then they say, No, I'm afraid this is this is actually where you are. And you need to look around and find somewhere to eat and find some accommodation and get sorted. And, you know, the analogy is clear, you know, you you end up in another country. That's what it was like. And you think this is not what I it's not what I planned, and it's not what I wanted, and it's it's scary. And it's strange, and I don't I don't know the language. And I was out I was without all the resources. I haven't had anything to do with disability before this happened. And I was terrified of it. What it did do, you know, inevitably, is that once you look around the country, and you actually start meeting some amazing people, and you think, Gosh, these people are incredible. And this has been here all along. And you know, why didn't I think of coming here before and the food's not so bad. And you know, and that's exactly what happened to the community of people in the disability sector are incredible. And I met many other children who are going through far more than Orlando who's actually got quite a mild disability with his CP. And I have enormous respect and compassion and joy when I'm around those people. And I didn't believe that I would ever experience such an incredible level of, of admiration and love for this world that I'm in now, and we have been for a long time. And yeah, I wouldn't actually want it to be any different. I would like it to be different for him, because he experiences hardship. But I, I, for myself, I'm a very different person. And the person that I was where I was up to my eyeballs in my own performing, singing, dancing world of, of what can be a very consuming and very narcissistic environment, sometimes in the performing arts changed everything. It changed everything. Yeah, you can't be the same person. Yeah, absolutely. That's so profound. So honest, and sharing that so so eloquently Janet's incredible period of your life, as the years sort of went on. Did you find yourself then perhaps thinking about maybe returning to performing or did you even start writing or journaling or anything? To even to help cope with things? I don't know? Did you return to art new music? Yeah, yeah, I did. And the only thing that kind of was able to be like that held on I suppose throughout all of that stuff was music. Because I was able to write words. In the evening or at night, I was able to, by the time Orlando was about one and a half I was probably meeting up with a friend who had recorded some of the earliest survive stuff as a as an engineer. I knew he played guitar and I had really lost a lot of contacts in this town, as far as music goes. And so I just called him up and said, Do you want to jam on some of the stuff I'm writing? I've been I've been writing. So I did so probably once a week or once a fortnight I'd I'd do just go around to his house and we'd muck around on some songs. It eventually became the band, cat dog bird, which I was doing for 10 years. really, from beginning to end, it was about 10 years where we were pretty regularly rehearsing and performing various venues and festivals around South Australia. And that was the thread. That was the thing that kind of got me back in. And it was it was a bit of a turnaround for writing, as well, because I hadn't really been writing my lyrics at the time. When we were in survival. It was it was Tobin writing the words, I didn't do any of the writing, even though Creative Writing was always my favorite thing. At school, and whatever it wasn't, I didn't have the confidence or something. And I didn't feel I had anything much to say maybe as well. But certainly, and I know, one of your questions probably pertains to one of your questions anyway. But I think I think I suddenly had a lot to say about a lot of things actually not just about mothering or the issues of the heart. But just about the environment I was in and as soon as you bring somebody into the world, you're very, very aware of the world that they're going into, in its really acutely different way, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You safely say things in in different ways. You never realized things with whether you were looking at something but you never saw it in that way. Then all of a sudden, you put on a different pair of sunglasses, and you know, everything looks different and feels different. And yeah, absolutely. When you when you got back into doing the work with cat dog good, how old was all end up at that stage? I think I think it was about one and a half when I started venturing out into that. Yeah, I guess. Obviously Tobin would have been, would have taken the lead with caring for Orlando when you were doing this, and that must work always. Always in the night. So I was he was asleep. I'd go off and I'll come back, you know, after a couple of hours. And and that carried on for for many, for years, really? And yeah, if there was any performances and things and yes, Tobin was always the person that would hold the fort for everybody, particularly as more children came along, that became obviously more of a thing. Yeah. So tell me about your, the rest of your family. So I've got a rider who's now 14. And he. He's a very dedicated artist himself. They all are actually all three of them. They're very much into their own things, mainly writing and drawing. And making, but also some music as well. And I've got IV as well, who was born in 2009. So she's 12. And she's, yeah, she's great. She's right into piano, playing really, and a lot of crafty Makey things. She's She's into that and creative writing as well. So, yeah, they're all busy little boards. Now. They're all busy doing their own lovely making, and brings me a lot of joy to and actually inspires me a lot. They're very disciplined. Yeah. And you're not I wouldn't have been at their age No way. Better now, but not not. Let's go so may have mentioned or your children, I want to bring in the question that I always like to ask my interviewees about, do you feel that it's important for you, for your children to say what you're doing yourself away from being the mum, but also being Jen, the performer, the singer? Is that important for you for your kids to recognize that and to, I guess, value that and see the importance of what you're doing? Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's good if as a as a parent, that you can reveal something about your world that that makes you passionate. You know, I think it's important that children can see their parents in, in many colors as many colors as possible. Because you're the real people, you know, and I think children are necessarily self involved, they have to be that's exactly what they need to be and they are until they're 20, I guess around that round about that 20 age, you know, where we're actually be a bit younger than that, but around 20 is when they, their brains are really finished knitting together and and then looking out wood and separately, you know, forging their identities very much separately to the family. But certainly up until about be and I think it's important if they if they know that there are other things going on, not just what we are doing as parents to support them in their work. holds in making sure they're comfortable and safe and loved. But if they can see that there's other things that they need to be mindful of, and I think it's in everybody's best interest, I think there would possibly have been plenty of occasions where I may have really struggled, I think, to parent the way I want to parent to be the person I want to be for them, if I didn't have other things going on. And I think it is a benefit to them to know that those things are there. They can be mindful of them, they can try and understand them. It's not something to talk about. It's something that's that it's that connects to their world, and is intrinsic to their development, too. But I also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about, I think it's good if they can see that those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are, because I do believe everyone has an artist within them. Somewhere, you know, someone who wants to express themselves in some way or another creatively, because I believe we're all creative. Everyone is what people think they're not. But I think that's just because they haven't understood how they connect to that part of themselves. And it doesn't need to be something that I do for work, but but just the way that they live, the choices that they make and the way that they execute their ordinary day. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen. So my husband, who still paints, still makes films and still is involved in art in many, in many ways, musically, as well, still, that I think they have from an early age our kids anyway have have cottoned on to the idea that it's not only such an option, it's, you know, it's not just a boredom, filler, it's, it could be something that keeps you steady for the whole of your life. It's a mental health issue, actually. Yeah, that's so true. And I think when you talk about the options, like I think the kids are so drilled into them, they've got to you've got to go get a job you got to do you need got to do this and that and by showing them that you can actually your passion can actually be the thing that you do every day of your life is funny, that's an awesome thing to show them. And your children are quite involved in your art you've had I think it was in a film clip, was she sure. What's the word mind? You're sort of one of your songs? Yes, she she was given at the time. Yeah, and you've also had your latest track it's just come out you've got I think it'd be for all the children in the music video will just run just for one year his his friends, The Seagull and the seagull which is a beautiful beautiful track I'm gonna put a link to that if you don't mind in the stunning it is just beautiful. And the film the music video is just a beautiful sensation. So much you know, we worked we worked hard on many of those elements but some of those things we weren't really sure how they were going to marry together until until you actually start to build it so there's a number of chance elements that kind of come into making something like that but I feel like the video does a lot of justice to the to the music in this case. So that was Ryder involved in that but Orlando's now set to somehow appear in one of the future videos he's got ideas about what that should look like. Where we're negotiating at the moment that's exciting busy drawing a lot of he's doing a lot of illustrations for merch that will be coming out soon so he's he's right drawing is one of his his favorite skills and so he's he's busy working on some merch for us which will be fun. Oh, that's awesome, man. It's so lovely to get the stone on today this concept that the media and social media throws around of the Mum guilt? I'll put it in inverted commas. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that whole concept? It's an interesting one. And isn't it? I think I think that perhaps the minute you have a newborn baby in your arms, I think there's a certain instinctive kind of guilt that weaves itself to you. At the same time, I feel like along with responsibility and needing to give yourself fully to another being in a way that you've never had to before. I think that is one of the flip sides of that. I don't know that it's easy to escape that feeling of whatever you like, I feel like, you know, it's so easy for me to tap into, it's one of those scarily close things that keeps company with me, the idea that I could let someone down so easily, that my choices might impact on somebody so easily and so deeply. Without me even trying, it's because we're human, where we're built to not, not win all the time, we're often going to fail, we're going to make the wrong decisions, we're going to hurt people, I think its inherent in the human condition, we're imperfect. And so depending on what level of expectation you put on upon yourself, would sort of correspond to the amount of guilt you feel around, around around those things. And a lot of that's perceived stuff, some of it's not even true or real, what we think we might be doing to damage our children, you know, possibly isn't even isn't even there in the first place, we have massive capacity as humans to invent, you know, scenarios that we can feel guilty about, I think the Catholic Church did a really good job of harvesting the, the natural tendencies that humans have, and providing them with a place that they can discuss this alleviate their this guilt that they have. And as a mother, I think, you know, it's in tenfold, because I think you're constantly faced with choices and decisions to make that are going to, either positively or negatively impact the balance of the family of one child and or another or, you know, and I feel like you're constantly weighing those things up. And for me, guilt is a very present thing, I, I struggle with that a bit. So now than I did, when I was first a parent, I feel like I don't feel like guilty is a very useful space to be in, I feel like it. It informs things and I think it serves a purpose, often to make you consider and weigh up what's going on, perhaps if you didn't have that you just go full throttle into whatever it was that hedonistic desires, it's sort of it holds you up for a moment just to check yourself, I suppose just give you that little in the ear, like, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps the the point of that is then to listen to what that is saying and decide whether that is real, a real concern or whether it is coming from somewhere else. And when I say coming from somewhere else, I mean, the voices in your ears that to other people, or other sort of societal things, saying, oh, you know, women have got many of them, many more than men, I would say about why we should be doing this or that or the other. We have, you know, other generations of women who, you know, well, meaning as they might be, might say things like, oh, but you know, wouldn't, wouldn't it be better if it was the mum, you know, staying with them? Or Wouldn't it be better if, you know, it's, you know, really your job to do that not the babysitter or not the husband or, or there might be other well meaning voices that you know, say are but you can go back to work, but really, it's, you know, it's better to be at home or, you know, you've only got a few years and, you know, so you've got a lot of those voices, I think and depending on what your own mother did, well, your own grandmother's did around mothering there's there's no shortage of voices that might speak into what you feel you'd like to do. And so I've had plenty of guilt laid on me externally, for choosing to go and perform or staying up late at night doing a show and coming back, possibly tired the next day or things like that. Or even just pursuing, you know, something that you're passionate about. So pursuing doggedly, this vision to communicate through music, you know, what a thing. You know, there's such a lot of beauty around that, but, but strangely, it can be twisted to make it seem like the most selfish pursuits. You know, what are you doing that for? What's the point in that? And I do have a few voices that come to me from that direction as well. And over the years have have made me you know, pull up short, hang on what it what is that about? What does that mean? Is it something to listen to? Or is it just that person's own experience of life and, you know, being imposed upon me, my own mum has never made me feel anything other than supported for making art. She's been incredible in that way. And I think if that hadn't been the case, I might have drowned in I might have, like, a lot of women of my age, who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth as far as music and making and other art forms can go, if I didn't have such a supportive mum, who has never, to my memory made me feel at all, like I should be doing something else, even making money or something like that. She's never made me feel less for choosing those things. And she's just been happy to jump in and babysit or offer, you know, she's even offered to support me financially, you know, at different times when, when there's just no money coming in. Not that I've taken her up on those things, I think we've always sort of managed somehow. But I think that I think that was a really important part of it. Absolutely, because you could, you could see how differently it could have been, if we didn't have that spot in there, like you said, you know, just yet, Jen lash would have wandered off into the nevernever. And, yeah, that's so important. I want to bring in now, this this amazing book that you recommended to me, by North col Rachel power, and it's called the divided heart, art and motherhood. And it's like someone has FM's everything that you've ever thought in your whole life about creating and being a mother. It's like, the feelings and the emotions associated. But no one really talks about it, no one makes you feel okay about feeling the way that you do. And there's a quote that I just want to read from her that really stuck with me. It's, it's she's written that writing became his single act of independence. And when I read that, I just went, Oh, you're not kidding. Like, it's like, your whole life and your whole world exists for this one being. And yeah, you grapple with the things that you still had left from your previous life, it seemed perfectly to you for what you're interested in pursuing and talking about with people, it seemed like a perfect document. Absolutely insane. And I'll put a link to that book in the description, too. For anyone else who's interested. I agree that it's an extremely affirming thing to read it as a person who's doing I think it's important to note that making a choice to be an artist, anyway, is a really difficult decision to make in a way, but it's one that doesn't feel like a choice as well, like I don't actually feel compelled to do many other things I've always been compelled to do to make and I will, I will continue to do that. Even when, you know, I'm not putting anything out publicly, if ever, you know, it comes up, I'll still be compelled to make I'm sure of it. There's just totally there has always been there. And so it's that to make a choice to to be an artist. Whatever gender you identify as, I think it's a difficult decision. It's a road that is not well traveled, it's often fraught with issues don't really get a lot of financial reward necessarily for it. So you sometimes have to balance other work and other things with it trying to make it work. As a woman, I think it's it's another whole layer of of complexity. And I love that these women who are speaking in this book, are acknowledging that difficulty, you know, the fact that they are compelled to do this, this is the vocation they've chosen this is that this is what they're doing, whether they're making money from it or not. but also trying to do all the other things that they're trying to do as well, which don't necessarily enter into the complexity around being a male artist is a really interesting thing to read about. And as a woman who's also going through similar things, I found it an incredibly affirming document. And, like you said, spoke to things that might be considered negative emotions or whatever, as well as positive things in a way that was so real, and you can just identify with it. There's a wonderful poem by Kate Kennedy. And she, she's in the book as well. She's one of my favorite writers. And she, she wrote a poem, which I now can't think of the name of right now. I'll have a little Google and I'll let you know in a minute. It's in her book, the taste of river water. And she writes, a lot of that poetry collection is around motherhood, and being a writer. And I, oh, no, it's called it's called the Zen master have to suddenly remembered and I read that poem, that she thing and also her writing about what it is to try and write while you've got a toddler underneath trying to drag you to come outside and play and do these things. You're like, No, I just need to finish this. I've got to get this finish. And I just, yeah, it just had a real emotional impact upon me reading that. So Jen, do you find that your children pop up in your work at current work, or you're really influenced by them at the moment that the kids your kids actually end up featuring in quite a lot of the songs? And on this new album? I reckon they're probably in two or three of the songs, actually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that's a big part of, of my life, and they are a massive part of it. And you know, not necessarily talking directly about them, but about, you know, the impact that they have on, on me or on a situation or seen there's one about glass where, you know, I feel like I want to, it's called Glass and I feel like I often look at them at every stage that they've been at, and want to kind of shrink wrap them as they are, they're hilarious, or that little jumper that you never, ever want them to grow out, or, you know, all the funny things they say, or the little list they speak with, or, you know, just the interactions that they have, or that kind of thing, but each stage is is unique and special and funny and beautiful in its own regard. And also hard and challenging, too. But, um, you know, and so, this song is about impermanence. It's about that shifting, that constant shifting, that I noticed daily as a mother, and there's nothing more evident than the shifting of time is when you're looking at your children, because they're the ones that are constantly changing. You know, I think I've got lots of friends who don't have children. And I think for me, they almost remain ageless. Because I don't notice time passing when I'm with them. But when I'm around, like, my friends with children, we're like, holy crap, look at these kids. They used to be this small and now they try it, you know, and it's, it's a it's a real thing, you know, and I and I do, I do love the different stages, but I do I'm a very aware of the impermanence of this, of that shift of things that are that are not going to remain. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a bunch of references in his new work that come come from them and actually directly so I did want to say that because when we talk about the impact of motherhood on art, probably what I wasn't expecting was was how much of an inspiration or you know, around content, the things that I feel like I want to write about, is quite frequently inspired by by them too, so far from being a pull on, on my creative processes there actually end up being integral to it in many ways. Hi, remember when you came down and you played at the watershed in Glencoe a couple of years ago? Yeah. And you played a song called Wolf? Yeah. And that song has, it's like it's set off this little. It planted a seed in my mind. The song it's about postnatal depression, and added a seed in my mind, which has now turned into I'm making an album. Um, I'm halfway, probably halfway through it. Yeah. And it's cold war. And it's about my post now depression, say, oh my never told you that. Oh, that's, that's really incredible and very moving to here and a very exciting to hear as well, I'd been wanting to write about it for so long, but I didn't quite know how it would sound. And then when I heard that song, and I thought I can I can share these songs in a way that our listeners will I suppose it's my pleasure, that's what, that's what the power of of sharing your work is about? I think you know, because quite often you could I could happily sit in my bedroom and just write and write and write and make and make and make and there's a part of me that doesn't feel necessarily compelled to share, share it, because I'm already doing the thing that I'm happy with. But there is there is a part of me that that says, Well, you know, this is this is also for sharing this is also for communicating with others something there's a desire within within us all, I think is to be understood and to communicate and is a brilliant conduit for communication. And even I studied dance and theater and I carried on doing that for quite a long time, I found that music was the most direct form of communication that I ended up wanting to settle into, even though it wasn't really my training area at all. And I think with with making songs like Wolf, there is a desire to capture something about the real stories, the real stories that are happening, you know, in motherhood, and it's not always, not always the Easy, easy ones to ride. I remember thinking that that one, I wanted to try and understand it for, you know, somebody close to me who was going through that, and, and trying to find ways of doing it. And then I remember thinking that a lighter musical treatment, over quite heavy words, was probably going to be the best conduit for this particular song. And I've actually use that a lot in my music, this idea of a lighter musical treatment, something that doesn't necessarily mirror the seriousness of the of the lyric can sometimes be that juxtaposition that's needed other times No, but certainly with some songs, I think that's, that can be a nice trick to get people to, to not be too bogged down in and yet still hear, you know, because you want to be heard. That's the thing that's most important, I think. Absolutely. I love how you articulate that. I guess I can ask you Is there anything else that you'd like to share around this topic that you feel like we might not have covered that's important to you, I think this is a really important subject, it doesn't ever become less important because we need to be talking about how it is to be women in art, and the layer extra layer of mothering in art, and making time carving out space for that very, very special and important part of your life, as an artist, as a woman is, is vital. And my when I'm thinking of a tune, and I'm working on a piece of song, and I use that voice memo in my iPhone, it is probably 60% of it. Now back when I was smaller, it would have been 99% of it is full of them bursting into the space with a question or something that was needed the wear of the washing machine in the background. And I'd be sending bits of samples of songs that I was writing to the rest of the band and I've been, you know, littered with interruptions and, and funny little squeaking voices coming out. I can remember wanting to spend maybe 20 minutes and I got very good at being efficient with my time. That's one thing I will say is that as a mother, I think you know, this idea that you need to be inspired and wait for the muse to come and sit on your shoulder or you need to sit in some beautiful, picturesque, you know, space in the studio in the middle of a field until you know, and that's the conditions that you can write under. No, no. I think I would never have made a single thing you know. So I'm excited much because I can just totally relate to what you saved in. I would say I'm going just for 20 minutes into my room. I had a sliding door so it wasn't even a door I could shoot a lot. It was a sliding door. And I said I'm just gonna go in this was when I made the night's insomnia. I said I'm just going to go in there I need to work on something 20 minutes I've got something in my head I need to resolve and I just need to record it and then I'll be able to remember it and then I'll be able to get back to whatever it was I was doing with you. So I'm just gonna go for 20 minutes And I know just the timing is perfect, seriously? Yeah. The little dot, the hands I've worked out could slide that door open, and then in a trot, and I'd be in the middle of recording and you know, I'm just wondering, I'm just wondering, and why they'd go and it would be short. And I'd be answering questions while still singing. It was just, it was remarkable. I still have some of those on my phone. And another thing that happened was when I was recording the cat dog bird album back in 2000. Well, forever, really, but it was released around 2014. And 15. IV was a baby, when we were recording some of the tracks. I remember her being six months old and sitting in a bouncer thing. And I was in the studio recording. And I remember her crying, and then I needed to breastfeed, and you know, and it was. And I remember, most of the men in that room that were there, you know, working on the recording with me, was slightly peeved. I think at the time, the noise, the disruption, the needing to stop and start. And it was only some years later when one of those men that I was working with had his own children. And he came back to me and he said, I keep thinking about when you had baby IV in the studio, and you were trying to record and no one was really all that patient with you. And that would have been a really hard thing to do. And now I've got my own girls, I kind of think that was a pretty extraordinary thing that you were carving out that time for that to happen. And that album wouldn't have been able to happen if I hadn't said no, this is a priority. I know that this is not ideal for her, she'd probably rather be at home. And it's probably not ideal for me, I'd probably rather not be needing to breastfeed or, you know, console her or, you know, get her to sleep while I do the next take or whatever. But we must make. Yep, we must. We must keep going. You know. And I think I hope that I hope that the kids as they get older, understand that making time for that to happen. Whether it be the boys seeing that that's a woman making time for that to happen, whether it's five in understanding that she must make time for that to happen in whatever way. But that's hopefully one of the gifts that that we as mothers can actually give our kids. Now when I'm recording their tiptoe around, they'll say Are you recording as they're coming up the stairs? And okay, yes. They're really quiet. And they've worked it out now. And they're incredibly generous with that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Before I let you go, can you tell us what you've got coming up. So coming up, I've got a new album coming out. It's due out on August the 20th. We're going to be performing at the Goodwood Institute, which is in Goodwood on Goodwood road 7pm. And the tickets you can get on, try booking. And just before that on the 24th of July, we have a collaboration kind of session, the meal was part of the umbrella music festival. And it's going to be a three way conversation, really where I'm going to try and tie together all the different collaborations I do, whether it be the songwriting or do with children, at kindergarten, I'm going to share some of those and then have a bit of a co write with the people in the room. I'm going to talk about the collaboration I do with poets do a lot of work with poets around Australia. And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that process. And then finally, we'll be sharing some of the songs that we'll be featuring on this new album. So that's tickets through Eventbrite for that one, and that's at the meal on the 24th of July. So there's a couple of shows coming and of course there's new singles coming out in the lead up to all of this that's kind of on YouTube or Spotify or all of the platforms really do bots on underwater. On one bots day and dry above the time. They more than oxygen stay alive. curdle, six to eight you can watch the going on I'm so thrilled to find sponsors. Thank you for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to talk to you. Thank you. It's just been so lovely to chat. I feel like times just disappeared and it's been really lovely to be. Yeah, reflecting on some of these things. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with the Nazi stickman. Can you

Fleur Harris Australian illustrator +designer S2 Ep63 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Fleur Harris is a painter, illustrator, product designer, collaborator and mother of her son living in Melbourne Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous, and Fleur aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Fleur was always a drawer throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, Illustration and Interior Design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years, Fleur began working for herself 6 years ago and now designs full time, although she doesn't see it as a job. Fleur has collaborated with brands such as TuTu de Monde and 12 collections with Adairs Kids since 2013. Fleur is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Fleur believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work, time and profits to charities that align with her values, most recently The Great Barrier Reef Foundation. through the Better Worlds Projects Through her imaginative designs, detailed illustrations and design sensibility, she has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity and happiness. Fleur's world is a place where imaginations run free and anything is possible Fleur is excited to launch her own label, " Fleur Harris " clothing range coming later this year and has many exciting projects coming up including collaborations with namely co, and Adairs Kids. Connect with Fleur website / instagram / linktree Podcast - instagram / website The Divided Heart - Motherhood and Creativity Rachel Power on the podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is such a pleasure to welcome you. My guest today is FLIR Harris. Fleur is a painter, Illustrator, product designer, collaborator, and mother living in Melbourne, Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous and flow aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Flow was always a draw throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, illustration and interior design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years player began working for herself six years ago, and now designs full time. Although she doesn't see it as a job. Flo has collaborated with brands such as to to demand and it's released 12 collections with a dares kids since 2013. Flair is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Flair believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work time and profits to charities that align with her values. Most recently the Great Barrier Reef foundation through the better worlds projects. Through her imaginative designs detailed illustrations and design sensibility flow has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity, and happiness. Flers world is a place where imaginations run free, and anything is possible. Flair is excited to launch her own label clothing range coming later this year. And Fleur has many exciting projects coming up, including collaborations with namely code and today's kids. I really hope you enjoy today's podcast the music you'll hear is from my ambient music trio, LM J, which features myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Flo. It's an absolute pleasure to meet you. The pleasure is mine. Allison, thank you for having me. And thank you for hosting what I think is a really beautiful podcast. Oh, thank you. That's lovely if you decide so you're in Melbourne, is that right? That's right. Yes. Just out of the city. I live here with my husband and our little boy bales who's six years old. Six, that's a great age. I've got a six year old it's it is good fun. It's beautiful. I feel like we've hit our stride as a as a good little team. It's been lovely. So yeah, your weather today you'd be a bit overcast and rainy out there. Yeah, a bit overcast. we've still been out in the garden late this morning. That hasn't stopped us and a bit chilly. But I quite liked the Melbourne winters it's a nice still day and it's beautiful. Yeah. Might we live in Mount Gambier? So we're sort of halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So whatever whatever weather you guys get, we've sort of had it first and my pop used to live in our tiny house over there. And you know, the the beachside suburb and when he moved he moved over here and he said it was the weather was worse here it was colder he met Gambia and we used to think it would be worse in Melbourne like near the beach he'd be cold and windy and he said not met Gambia is hard for three really. I was surprised by that. But now China's our time is a good part of the world. We duck over there sometimes to go to the beach. Oh yeah. I love this. The Ice Cream Shop and fish and chip shop down there. Like neither force or Yeah, it's beautiful over there and Williams town. I love that part of the world. Yeah. Beautiful place yet. All right, so let's talk about your creativity and your beautiful artwork. Can you describe your art form, what you create and sort of what sort of mediums you use? Yeah, sure. Well, my personal work is quite diverse. So I do everything from oil painting to more craft style projects. I quite enjoy just, you know, sketching in my sketchbook when I used to have a sewing machine until it broke, I used to sew a lot, so little toys and clothes. And I've just always been a sort of a maker, I guess you would say, creative person that just likes to make things. But over the years, I've really honed in on my illustration, and a particular style of illustration, especially that's quite detailed and whimsical. And I've been fortunate that that has resonated with quite a wide audience. And it's meant that I've been able to focus on that full time. And I've been doing that for six years now. Working for myself out of my home studio, and I absolutely love it the best job in the entire world. And I had many years prior to that of working in house as an artist for different brands. I didn't textile design for different clothing companies used to work on swimwear and sleep wear and all sorts of products. And then I definitely did my time when I was at uni, you know, working in retail and that kind of thing. But my for the last 15 years, it's always been a creative role that I've worked in, and then work for myself here for the last six years. I've always freelanced as I've been working in other jobs too. I've just found that a really helpful creative outlet. While I've had a full time job, to be able to be working on other projects that are a bit different on the side, I always found really helpful. So, so yeah, that's great. So I have a studio set up at home. Here, which is where I am now I took over the I think this was actually the piano room when we when we moved into this house, I had a beautiful old blue piano in here. Oh. And it was sitting in front of this big stained stained glass, Windows or lead light Windows or other. And when I walked in here, and so there's be high ceilings and the windows and this piano, I just thought this is the space for me. And I that was when we're inspecting the house and I called my husband I said, I'm just just letting you know, I'm gonna put an offer in. And it was, it was pretty much because of this room. Nevermind the rest of the house. And it's actually turned out to be fantastic because we have beautiful neighbors and it's really changed our lives for the better. So I think that this space kind of definitely led us in the right direction to just to a better, more fulfilling life all around. And it's certainly been brilliant for my creative practice. So I've got everything in here. I've got drawers full of paints, and I've got drawers full of papers, and there's just it's a minefield of art materials. I love it. And my little boy my little boy loves it too. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I can see behind you've got a clothing rack with some beautiful, really beautiful colored dresses. And I can see like, what's that? Nice sort of, is it true? Yeah. Can you tell us? Yeah. Last year I did a collaboration with a beautiful brand from Sydney called to to demand and we collaborated to create a 40 piece. Children's luxury apparel and accessories collection. Oh wow. And what they do is really special. Their attention to detail is is pretty explicit and working with them. was a lot of fun and the garments that we created a very covetable, so I couldn't not pack them away. They have to be on display in here. It's like having things in a frame, isn't it? It's like it has to be out there and yeah. And everyone like everyone that comes in loves to poke around in my studio. And that's, that's definitely a section that gets a lot of attention. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, I love the colors. It's like, sort of purples and pinks. And yeah, it's beautiful. And there's lots of beautiful beadwork. And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty, pretty beautiful stuff that they make. So that was a that was a collaboration that I, you know, I really cherished and Yeah, lovely one to do. And they were actually, every now and then I'd go through a phase where I'd say, I'd say, Okay, I need to sit down, think about what do I want to do next. And I'd written up a bit of a list of my dream brands, and they were my dream brand to work with. So when that collaboration came to life, that was really special. Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like you manifested that, like he put it out there. And I'd say a combination of manifest and dog and hard work. Yes, you actually have to do something to make things happen. I'd love to hear you describe there that when you've you've got work that you're doing for a company or a client, that you've also got your own work that you do, it's like, you've got to have that balance of things that are meeting your own needs, as a creative, sort of whatever, whatever that may be. Is that something you've always sort of done been really mindful of, of keeping your own needs met in that way? I guess. Yeah, I, I would say that, it's something that never leaves me this desire to be creating something. And, you know, we might go on a family holiday, and I'll say, I'll leave my sketchbook at home, I'll just have a break from from it. And you know, I won't do any of that, I'll just have a rest. And then in a couple of hours of being wherever we're going, I'll be like, I'm just gonna go to the newsagent. And see if I can find that sketchbook. I learned I'm, you know, and then I get it out of my sister, and we can get on with our holiday, but it's something that it's, it's all it's always there for me this desire to make something and it's not so much for me about the end goal, necessarily, it's actually just the process that I really enjoy, I think, you know, it's just as satisfying for me to create marks on paper that might not sort of come to be anything that looks particularly nice. I enjoy that process itself as much as when I do create something that actually does turn out nicely, you know, and, and either way I see its value. Whether it's just, you know, exploring some mediums, and as you know, sometimes I'll start a painting and five minutes, and I'll just get this feeling like, Oh, this isn't working. And the process is just not feeling right. And so I just grab it out and walk away and, you know, leave it and I actually went through a phase would have been about 15 years ago, where I didn't paint for about two years, and just kind of didn't need to I didn't have the desire, I was doing other things. I was selling little toys and I was you know, my creativity was coming out elsewhere. And then when I finally one day, I just got this, like tsunami internally that was like, You need to go and paint and I sort of went on this Bender I remember having canvases all over the floor and it was almost the word furious might be a bit dramatic, but it was a flurry of, of paint brushes and paint, it was like it was like it had been sitting there dormant. And then one day just the lid came off. And I made a whole lot of art, this sort of series of artworks that were kind of unusual for me, but a lot of them are still hanging, my mom is always first to put her hand up for an artwork that's going that needs a home. So her house over love, and it's and she lives into state. And so when I got there, I forgot about that. Painting and you know, actually brings back a lot of memories of that time and kind of reminds me about, you know, the importance of just giving time to process and to making and not being fixated on the outcome. Because I know that if I was worried about the painting, because you know, and you make better sometimes that's all right. Yeah, I'm fine with that quite happy to make a bad artwork, it's just about getting the paint or the or the pencil or whatever it is done on paper, letting it come out of my head and out my arm. And then it's, it's out. Yeah, do you think being able to continue doing that gives you then when you sit down to design something for you know, ideas, or a collection of someone you're working with, that allows the ideas to flow freely, because you're not uninhibited by your creativity comes out. Yeah, and in a way I does, I've got a lot of a lot of it out of my system. And so when it does come down to sitting down and creating a really detailed out, you know, that can take months to make, it definitely makes me I think it gives an ease to, to other things that I'm working on. Because I have those other needs, if you like out of my system, you know, there have, I've looked after them. The great thing is, though, that I enjoy the process of making those really detailed artworks too. So it doesn't feel ever like, you know, I, I've got that fun part out the way now I have to do this to me. It's, it's no, I mean, it's it's definitely time consuming and requires, you know, a huge amount of focus. But I love that like to sit there I can sit for hours and hours and hours and draw. I remember there was a day in my studio, where I think I'd sit there for about seven hours. And after a while I thought oh my gosh, I haven't kind of like a woke up. I haven't been to the toilet, I thought it had been about seven hours. And I'd really just, you know, I can get lost in that process. And so to have you know, to be able to play with all the different mediums and and explore that in parallel with my illustration work. Cuz I think the best way for me to work as an artist, it keeps my skills keeps my skills up. I feel like I maintain my skills that way and it also keeps me How would I describe it? It keeps things fresh. I never get tired of of the work I'm doing. Yeah, because I have that variety. Yeah, absolutely. And when it is your full time job, even though I don't really see it as a job but when it is what I do full time. I think it is important to to keep that variety there so that it doesn't become too monotonous because I would I don't know what I'd do if the day came where I didn't enjoy doing this anymore. I can't see that come in because it's I think it's just part of who I am. But you know, cross that bridge when we come to it. I think I haven't got a I haven't got a plan B. I'll be I think it'd be a landscape gardener. I'd be quite heavily heavily, quite happy doing garden maintenance. Just being like a person that comes around and pulls weeds out of the garden would be very happy doing that. Your process that you use, you talked about your illustration, do you sort of do you draw it out on your paper first and then you create it on a, like an iPad or a computer program. Sometimes I will have a little sketch in a sketchbook or it's usually on a bit of like, a grab a bit of paper out of the printer. And I'll just sort of sketch out some stuff. And it's really rough at that point, usually, and then I just start working digitally straightaway, because for me, a lot of my artworks end up being used to create products. So whether it's wallpaper or fabrics for bedding, or apparel, they do need to be able to be worked with by whoever's producing that product. And so the the format that they need to be supplied in for those people is digital. So I just find that it's much more straightforward to just start the artwork digitally. But the concept itself will usually I usually feel it out very roughly on paper so rough, like nearly unrecognizable work, you look at it, and you think that person actually can't draw. It's just very, you know, to me, it makes sense in my head, what I'm scribbling down. Yeah, I can send I can show you if you like like a before and after. I'd love to actually, yeah, that'd be brilliant. Yeah, so yeah, so I'm really, I love your, your style of the things that you put in your artworks and do birds and, like, there's a cute little one of a little bunny with like little butterfly wings, which is suede. Sort of like you say that whimsical. Little. It's just, it's so what the word is, it's relaxing, I don't know if that's the right word, but it's very comforting. Like, it's sort of, that's beautiful. It doesn't, it doesn't challenge you and makes you feel really nice and warm. Oh, that's beautiful feedback. Allison, thank you, I love it. Because sometimes you just want something that just makes you feel good, don't you like, I know, sometimes, like I go to art galleries and look at things and get quiet, you know, things are quite profound and quite in your face, and you get like that challenging feeling. And sometimes it's just really nice to look at something that makes you feel good and makes you smile. Yeah, and it's incredibly powerful. Art is an incredibly powerful vehicle for sharing of opinions and, and can be a great vehicle for making change and, and bringing issues to the forefront of you know, people's minds. And I think that that is one of the most fantastic things about it. For me, what I choose to use my or like to use my artwork for is actually to bring joy and happiness. And that's my the way I see my contribution has been the most. That's what I want to be able to contribute with my art, certainly at this point in time. Maybe that will, you know, maybe later down the track, I might start to use it for for other purposes. But for now I'm really in this beautiful world of fairytales and whimsy and joy and happiness and the connections that I've made with people who relate or relate to that in the artwork. Very, you know, along the lines of what you just spoke about, I can't express what beautiful people it's brought into my life and beautiful conversations, you know, I hear from people with them, telling me what the app has meant to them. And especially during difficult times where it's brought them comfort and hope even. And to me that is just more than I could ever ask for to be able to contribute to people's lives in that way. And I think it's I feel it's a very special thing to be able to do. And so I love to be able to nurture that and particularly to be able to share that with a wide age range of people. So while a lot of my work is the products are geared towards children, I do hear from adults and you know, people in older generations who have been moved or or connected with the artwork in some positive way. And I really and that's globally to you know, hear from people all around the world. And that is Just such that gives me such pause for thought about, you know, okay, what I'm doing is actually really important to people and I feel a deep sense of, you know, I take that seriously. It's a joy. It's a joyful seriousness. It's not lost on you. Not at all. Not at all. And it's at front of mine, when I'm creating artworks is, you know, Will this bring wonder and whimsy and joy to people? And that's almost sort of like the as a called a litmus litmus test. Yeah. Yes. And so yeah, I feel really fortunate to be in this space where there's this beautiful community of people around me that have been drawn in by the artwork and yeah, we all we all share in this sort of very kind and calm, you know, narrative together. It's lovely, if you if you did look through, you know, comments on my social media page on Instagram, people do everyone to my artwork, I just so lovely, you know, they are so forth. kind words and, and I just think I'm very grateful for that. Now, good on you. I think that's lovely. Because I don't know, there's so much crap going on in the world. Like, you know, there's stuff happening overseas and all these big powerful men going out at each other with bombs and thinking, I don't know, it's just lovely to just be in your own little world and feel good about things. And I, I really love there's a, there's a picture that you put up only must have been yesterday of just the image of Two little birds and a butterfly and sitting amongst these lovely flowers and leaves. And I'm really, really drawn to birds. That's just something I don't know. And even when I'm out walking, when I see birds, I think particularly think of particular relatives and people that have passed away. And whenever I see birds, I just go, oh, there's something really comforting. I don't know about birds, I just made me feel really secure and safe. And that's beautiful after. To me they are like little magic folks that are flitting about in the trees. I mean, they can fly. And they sing. I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool. To be a bird, like, even if just for a day. Yeah, that post was was interesting. I had some people message me privately about that some really beautiful messages as well, I think. Because the comment that, you know, I put with it was about had, the purpose of posting the artwork was to offer a moment of calm in what feels like at the moment is particularly, you know, a very busy world with a lot going on. And there's a lot of noise and a lot of it's quite unpleasant. You know, I personally find watching the news, I just mean, quiet despair, sometimes. Some of the stuff that's going on, and I just ponder, you know, as humans, we'll have to see what are we doing? about so many things. And, you know, I, I think that we can all make a difference and that the power of collective effort is important to never underestimate. I think, when I do see that, you know, there's awful things happening in the world, it gives me even more motivation to try to paint the kind of world that I want to live in. And that's a world of kindness and peacefulness and an empathy for each other. And a world of imagination, where we, you know, we have fun and we, yeah, we basically and we be, you know, we, we get carried away with our imaginations and it's so serious, you know, it's like, yeah, it's with butterfly wings, and you can have little creatures going along in boats in the air and, you know, it can just be whatever it needs to be. Yeah. And if that's, you know, to me, that is, I think, Okay, well, those people over there are gonna do that terrible stuff. You know, it's the wars and awful things that are happening, I think, well, I I'm gonna keep flying the flag for kindness and goodness. And you know, well, I don't have the stages of these people doing awful things. I do. I do. I do recognize that. There is a place for for what I'm doing in it and an audience for it because I think people do are drawn to kindness and good things, especially when all that awful stuff was going on. I think it's really lovely to because of where you're where your art appears, you know, it's on things that you can bring into your home. So like you said, it's on the wallpaper, it's on the bedspreads. It's on clothing or cushions, like you can surround yourself with that. So it's not just, you know, an image in a frame, you can actually, you know, make yourself comfortable with with that around you. Okay, that's pretty profound. Absolutely. And for children, especially, I mean, for me to my, my bed is one of my favorite places of getting into bed. Learn it's such a safe space, you know? Well, it is hopefully for most children, and it certainly should be a safe space and a place of comfort and to be able to, you know, help surround them with with beautiful things that will, will be, you know, perhaps the backdrop to their treasured childhood memories is something I don't take for granted at all, I think about when I grew up the doona covers in my life really stuck stick with me. I had a, I had the kintone doing a cover with the big butterflies and, and that, you know, is clear as day in my mind, and then my mom one day went ahead and decked out our room like, head to toe in this Laura Ashley, you know, the curtains and the wolfberries and the picture Owl and the whole shebang? Oh, my gosh, I loved it. And, and that print, you know, it was the same print on everything, the curtains and the dooner and everything. And that, that visual of that, that bedroom is such a big part of my childhood memories. And so to, to think that my artwork may also, you know, form that, you know, become part of special memories for people who will one day be grownups doing wonderful things in the world is, is pretty incredible to sort of try and get my head around. It's massive, isn't it? Good for you, that's just too beautiful attitude to have a lover Good on you? Have you always been able to draw that well? Or did you have to do lots of practice? Or does it just come naturally to you? I'm always practicing. And there's definitely different techniques where I produce better work than with other techniques. And it changes you know, I used to be a really good painter with acrylic paints and now and I use acrylic paints that just feels like I'm almost starting again. I don't use them very much anymore. But it's funny actually, because I was looking for some stuff. And I ended up going through an old file and I found, you know, like awards from primary school. And, you know, there's an award to me that's like the Picasso or the you know, I think it's definitely been something that was always my theme. Like its primary school, you know, like, oh, Fleur, she's the one that can draw. You know? It's it's funny kids. My, my memory in primary school is keeps held drawing on a pedestal like being able to draw is like a really cool thing. Yeah, yeah. Are you such a good drawer? It was always. Yeah, it keeps me sane. I don't know where that sort of falls off a bit. But kids and kids were really into celebrating people who are good at drawing. I was always like, pretty chuffed about. So yeah, it's something I look, I've always enjoyed it. And so I think as a result, I've done it a lot. And so that has meant, you know, yeah, you've refined and honed over the years by by default. I've had this Yeah, yeah. But I'm always practicing. It's the kind of thing where if you if you drop it for a bit you can when you finally get back to it feel a bit rusty. And so it's not like I don't really see it as being like riding a bike where you kind of never lose that skill. I do think it's something that needs to be maintained. So yeah, unfortunately that by working in it all the time, I'm always practicing. Yep, Now that's really cool. That that's something I'm discovering, because I'm not an artist by any means. But I like painting and fiddling around. And it's like, I realized you actually have to practice at it. Like, you can't expect to be good at it like, oh, I mean, there are people like, obviously yourself, you've always been able to draw, but it's like, I want to be able to draw, and I can't say that annoys me. Well, it depends what what sort of level of expectation, I've got pretty high, I've got pretty high levels of expectation where maybe we can have an online zoom during class. Give me a few little Oh, man, that'd be amazing. Because my touring is just rubbish. It's like, I'm sure it's not Oh, no, really? Seriously? No, I think I think anyone can do it. It's not like, like, the gift you have. It's very, you know, you need to feel secure, you can't this kind of black and white. And, you know, straightaway which one it is. Whereas withdrawing, you know, it's, it's a little bit more subjective. And there is a bit more wiggle room for, you know, being expressive and that not having having to look really steep, and all sorts of styles. Great, you know, yeah. Whereas I certainly will never be on the stage with a microphone. And thank goodness, so hopefully, hopefully in the room. You won't be going to karaoke. I actually don't mind karaoke. But even still, I know my limits so turning to your, yourself, you mentioned before that he likes to come into the studio does he does he take on your creativity as well? In little bursts. So he's like me with my painting break for two years, he might have a few weeks where he's just not interested in drawing or anything like that. And then suddenly, it's on you know, he just wants to be with me in here and writing stories and drawing pictures and, and I just facilitate that when he says that he wants that it's never something that I've tried to say, you know, come and sit with me, I'm gonna give you an art lesson or anything like that. I've always made it available to him, you know, if you want to do this, let's do it together. But I certainly have never tried to impress upon him my passions, but I've always made available to him. You know, what I do? In the materials, I have to do it and my passion for it. He knows they're always here, if he wants to, you know, get stuck into it. And when he does it, it's really special. Yeah, I've got up here on on my wall, little drawing I did of him. Well, he's a rabbit in the drawing, but of him as going after his first day of school. And he then came in, he's like, Can you can you do one of those for me, and I'll color it in. So I've got his little version next to it. In his little coloring, and next to my one of him, you know, drawing of him was beautiful little sweet things around my studio that he's drawn. Yeah. And we've got his little gallery in the hallway where we make sure we really celebrate any effort he makes creatively, you know, whether it's it all goes up on the wall, so that, you know, he feels confident in expressing himself in that way. Hmm. And like you said before, about things don't have to be for the end result. You know, I think a lot of times, I've my backgrounds in early childhood education, and I've seen over the years people, you know, almost judge little people's work, because it doesn't look how an adult thinks it should look, you know, which is incredibly damaging for a child. You know, it's about what they've made. And, and that's the end of it. You know, it's sort of about how we judge it through our eyes. Yeah, well, it's very reflective of their developmental process, especially in those early years up to seven years old, where there are sort of known stages that the children go through where they're exploring, you know, their understanding of shape and interpreting symbols and things like that. So I've always just felt it's important to encourage children as long as they're making an effort whatnot, well, let me say that again. I'm always I feel it's important to encourage children and celebrate whatever effort they make. Yeah, that's easy. It's not about judging, judging, it's about, you've done this. And that's fantastic. You know, like, I've got all around my studio, I have pictures the boys have made over the years. And some of it might just be, you know, a swipe of paint on a little piece of paper, but it's the meaning for it behind me, like my sorry, the meaning behind it. For me, it's like, and I get so inspired by that, because they're unencumbered in their creativity they're making because they're making something they're not thinking about what other people are going to think about this. And that's where I get stuck in my head when I attempt to do any sort of painting. So I find that really inspires me having their little pieces around me. Yeah. That they create. Gently without inhibition, that is the goal of as a grown up artist to be able to create that. And so I would never want to do anything that got in the way of that, you know, they hate my son has that now, and most children start with that, and I want to make sure it, I'll do what I can to nurture that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. To not take that away or not. Not damping out that little light. Yeah, yeah, it's so precious. And I mean, just watching my son draw, I mean, seeing his little hand around the pencils enough, just to, you know, melts my hand. Just so beautiful to watch. And to then, you know, see how pleased he is when we pop something up on the on the wall. It's just, how could I not? See, it is it special for them to realize that what they're doing has meaning and other people appreciate it. And they're important, you know, they're seen, and they're valued. I'm getting, getting goosebumps now saying all that. But you know, it's just, it's so important, you know, that they feel like that they have a voice and, and they value their value. They don't use those words. But, you know, that's how they feel. Absolutely. And I also think that they have admirable imaginations. So the things that they come up with, I could only ever dream of still being able to come up with. And so I just don't mean or of what of their imaginations. And so I also love to just sort of observe what comes rather than my son's mind as he's drawing. You know, there's a new drawing that he's got on the wall, he found a bit of cotton wall, in my studio, and he stuck it to the page and created this character, Mr. kloudio. And Mr. kloudio is a magician and everything in his world is made out of magic wands. So he's got, you know, a chair made out of magic wands, and then his hats made out of magic wands, and I just, I love is the kloudio book character. Yeah, I feel really privileged to be, you know, have someone in my life that you know, has this amazing brain on them and all children have that capacity? And I think I think we are wise to celebrate that. Absolutely. Yes. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was naming. So on that, do you find yourself? I guess this can be for either the work that you're doing for clients or your own work? Do you get inspired by that? Sort of, does that give you sort of the feeling to let yourself go to with your creativity? Yes, absolutely. And I will often reflect on my own childhood and what things excited me and caused me to have my imagination run away on itself, and then they're the sorts of things that I then like to include in my artwork. So that inspiration of imaginative thinking is is what I like to try and encourage through my work in hence why I love you know, creating characters like the bunny has the butterfly wings. To me, that is just odd. I would have loved as a kid to find something like that in my garden, like, you know, and I. And as a kid, I thought that that was really possible, you know, and so, and the thought of things, berries was absolutely possible. And that just filled my days with hope, you know, peering through bushes and hoping to see that little twinkle that would, would be a fairy and like, the excitement and anticipation that that gave me it was just so delightful. And so I think about those feelings when I create my artwork and and what type of themes will inspire that same sort of delight? Yeah. Did you find that after you had your son, that things sort of changed, like, was that more intense, or the things that inspired you change slightly, when you became a mum, I would say that the whole reason that I'm doing what I'm doing is because because of my son, so when, when I found out that I was pregnant, I was working for a company, and I was about seven weeks pregnant. And I thought I've ever I'm going to go out on my own, I feel like this is the time because I'm going to, if I go on Matt leave, I'd be trying to start working for myself while having a newborn baby. And I couldn't see how that was going to work. So I thought, I'm probably best to use this time, while I'm pregnant, to start. Start working on, you know, being an artist that works for myself. And so I quit my job, and I just started came home. And I had a few weeks of like, Oh, dear, what have I done? I just threw away my mat leave, and I have no job. And I'm pregnant, right? I really got got myself in a situation here. And I think actually, that the the potential disaster situation I had put my self in, actually inspired me to really give it a good go. And so I guess I laid a lot of groundwork in that time while I was pregnant, so that once my baby was born, I would have a business started that I could nurture on my own terms, as I was, you know, learning how to be a mum. Rather than worry about, you know, for me, I didn't want to have to worry about how am I going to get back to work, you know, part time and the logistics of all that sort of stuff. I thought, not knowing myself. And what was going to work for me, if I was to be the best mom, I could be I thought working for myself was going to be the best option. And so, because, you know, I had a couple of weeks where I was making jams and doing some domestic things. And then I thought, okay, got that out of the way. Now I need to, I'm going to sit down and I'm just going to make some art that is really true to me. I've spent all these years working for different companies making the art they want me to make. And I just created with that reckless abandon If you lie, and reflected deeply on my own childhood, and that inspired the woodlands artwork. And so that was the first sort of big artwork I created in that time after I'd quit my job and, and I was pregnant, and I didn't know what was going to become of that artwork. Yeah. That particular artwork opened a lot of doors for me and has become very popular and he's had a timelessness about it that has meant, you know, it's enduring and is still loved by people all around the world. You know, we released it as a bedding collection with the dares. Four years ago, we're in our fifth year of working together now and they still sell that same original bedding collection because people really love it. And that has just been such an incredible experience to to see what happens when you do really just create in a way that's really true to yourself, to then see, to get that sort of response really form really gave me a lot of confidence in I guess, you know, believing in myself and believing in my abilities and brought home for me the importance of being true to yourself and not just in a creative way. And so that has, has really, you know, that then opened up this world of artworks that I've gone on to create sense ideas and I've done 12 collections together now. And there's lots of really exciting stuff in the pipeline, I just joined up with a fantastic brand agency last November, and they've, they've got me very busy. Which is good. Just getting my head around this new world of, you know, being pulled in lots of directions. And while also you know, needing to have being a mom as a priority, it's it's kind of new territory, territory for me being sort of this busy and being a mom. I am really fortunate though, that I have the most incredible husband, who is so supportive of me and my work and his best dad and he really keeps this ship afloat. It will be remiss of me not to acknowledge him and and that's not without huge effort on his behalf. He works full time too. He's got a job that keeps him really busy as well. But I think we make it really good team and between us we you know, we manage manage life, just the three of us because we don't have our parents around giving us a hand. Unfortunately, my my dad passed away 15 years ago, and my mom was interstate and my husband's parents are down on the Mornington peninsular, often traveling so it really is just us. But we yeah, we might work and much, much of that is due to his title. He's just a legend. I can't speak more highly. I'm really, yeah, he's great. I owe a lot of, you know, being able to do what I do to, to him and also to my son because they, you know, when I do need space and time to get work done, they're really incredible about it. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And it's important, isn't it that, you know, you're valued. For what you do as a person, you know, I find a lot of stuff we talk about on this show is, you know, you're often seen as the mum that just does stuff for your family. So it's, it's brilliant, that, you know, obviously, you're more than that. And this, they can see that and they're helping you nurture that side of you too, which is really awesome. I think I agree. And I think I think my husband knows though that if I if I couldn't make my art, I probably wouldn't be a very happy person and then probably not as good a month. So I think he understands me, he understands me and understands that you know, this is actually a side of me and my personality and my soul that actually needs to be looked after and given time. And you know, he has things in his life that he you know, does as well that keep him balanced like particularly with exercise and things like that that he's really into and because he does understand that about me that's even more meaningful to me actually that he does really get that I've had to explain it to him but you know and they really got it he gets the it's cool so there's a couple of topics that I like to delve into on each of my episodes. Mum guilt and about identity. So with mum guilt. I know everybody either experiences or doesn't experiences or has their opinions about it and their thoughts. What's your take on molecule So I have a confession to make on mum guilt. And that is that I have heard of the word but I'm not, it's not a word that's really in my vernacular, or my, you know, my friends don't use it. And so I'm wasn't really confident in its true meaning. So I had to google it before I came on here, because I thought I'd need to get worded up just on what it is where to look, to be honest, I, I've never really felt particularly guilty about anything that I have or haven't done as a mom, because the one thing I am sure of is, I always try my best to do my best. And I'm certainly not a perfect mom, but my intentions are always for the best outcome for my son. And I do think that parenting is a learning process, you know, I didn't I never read any books or blogs or anything on parenting, I just kind of intentionally stayed away from a lot of that, I just sort of wanted to feel it out for myself, unfortunately, I've got a beautiful sister who she'd had her first child, six months before me. And then my brother had also had his first child, three months before me. So we all had our first baby within six months. And I kind of would just, yeah, it was beautiful. Now there's this, you know, free little cousins, these little boys that are all, you know, who love each other very much and close in age. It's really gorgeous. And for me that they were who I would, you know, check in with if I had questions or things like that. So? Yeah, look, I can't say that mom guilt is something it's actually ever really been on my radar too much. I certainly, I would say I have to be mindful of how much time I spend working. And, you know, I try to make sure that when my son gets home, like my studios, the first room on the left when he come into our house, and I love that, you know, when he comes home from school, if, if I haven't picked him up, usually I do pick him up. But if I haven't, you know, he'll make a beeline for this room. And we'll have a big hug, and I'll stop what I'm doing. And we'll you know, and then if I need to keep working, I'll either say to my husband, I need to do a little bit of extra work for half an hour or whatever. But I try to not let it extend much beyond that. If I can kind of do pens down when he gets home so that we can hang out. But yeah, I don't I don't know if that's disappointing that I don't have a lot to sort of offer on the mum, the mum guilty. And if anything, I I think I feel a bit sad that there's a word like that. Question, because I do feel like a word like that could offer a slippery slope for some people. Because if I'm having mom guilt, about what and where do you draw the line of you know, how much of something whatever it is time to you. So Mum guilt about how much? I don't know, where do you draw the line? Do you end up becoming paranoid that? I think isn't it? Yeah, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times, but it's been at those points where I've thought, oh my gosh, I am I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise, or, you know, and I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty but I actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family and a good mom. So same with with exercise, you know, my husband I both prioritize giving each other time to exercise each day because we know that for it's important to burn off all that cortisol and keep your stress levels down and I think we're much happier for it and it's just kind of about negotiating times and and you know, taking over the reins on the domestic duties that we get those things done, as I think we both realized that that, that time to look after ourselves is important for us to be the best parents that we can be. And best, you know, husband and wife to each other to you know, it's not just about our son. Yeah, exactly. It's the whole package. Yeah, like you said, we were talking, I don't know if I'd press record yet or not. But we're talking there, hey, you feel like you've got a really good unit. It's like, you all exist, the three of you together, and it's not you're not isolated as making you. This makes you a better mom, this makes you better part of a unit. And you all have those feelings, I suppose that things contribute to making you feel like you're better part of that unit. So yeah, I definitely enjoy. And I think that it's not just about the mum stuff. Totally, I feel like we've got, you know, we're a great little female family. And I think that's because my husband and I put a conscious effort into doing things that that make it that way. You know, we always talk about how we're spending time, each day or on the weekend, like we'll say to each other. What do you need to get done this weekend is usually our first question to each other. And that that could be anything from like, leftover work that needs being tended to, or my husband just might really want to get in the garden and plant some seeds or, you know, whatever it is, he might want times, but he is an amazing Baker. And he he is is on a bit of a fruit life Bender at the moment. So he'll and that requires quite a bit of time, you know, it's gonna Yeah, the Eastern is starter, and all the things that that needs time. And so we often check in with each other. What do you want to get done this weekend around that, you know, to make sure everything gets done, and then that includes as well, whatever's going on with our son or whatever we think, you know, he might be needing pets, there's a lot of a lot of kind of negotiating in terms of, you know, how we plan and spend our time and making sure everyone's kind of what they need out of life. Really. Yeah, you know, if my husband wants to go hang out with his friends at the footy, and he'll give me that heads up. And I know that that's, you know, important for him to do and go and have that time with his friends. And I much prefer he go does it at the football ground at the MCG rather than at home because he gets quite stressed. I don't really want to be found anyway. So it's really like my dad, my God. It's something I just don't get either. You know, I'm not, I'm not a sports person. You know, it's when the sports part of the news comes on. That's my cue to life. Which I don't care. I have this little sort of, I wouldn't call it quite a chip on my shoulder. But I'm like, Why isn't there an Art section on the news? You know? Why is it all this? Awful? And cricket? I mean, come on, like, there's others. Right stuff going on? Why is it just like, first part is bad news. And then the second part is, who's what guys are kicking a ball around? Like, is that really what we've got? Yeah, the two choices you get. But did that annoy you then this is something that really got me frustrated through the pandemic, when in particular, you guys over there you you did it a lot harder than we did here with your lockdown for, you know, I don't know how many days it was, but it was big, that the sport kept going, and they get to keep traveling around the country and doing whatever they liked. But all that stopped and I don't know, that really annoyed me. Do you know I? Strangely, it's almost a little bit like a like, for me, that newborn phase of being a mom is a bit like a blur to me. I almost feel a bit the same about the lock downs. Yeah. Like when I think back, I'm trying to reflect on what you're talking about. I'm like, I don't even remember was this spot on? You know, I don't know. I think because we're all just kind of getting our head around, like, oh my gosh, what is happening? You know, like, it's this, this real? And so it just is like, you were living it whereas we were watching you guys live it like we you know, maybe that's why because because you're in the trenches dealing with it, you know, that could be why that? I don't know it was maybe it was just a survival of, you know, trying to stay sane. Part of me maybe it's just locked in section of it. I will say though, that there was parts about that lock down that I'm grateful for like, you know, we had some pretty beautiful family times. You know, we had to be inventive about how we had fun and how we, you know, spent time together and it to still enjoy ourselves and we came up with things we otherwise wouldn't have done. And so I do try to look back on that period as something that you know, I try to see the good in it because to look back on it with any sort of not regret, that's not the word to look back on it and annoyed about it. Skills doesn't do anyone any favors. So I try and see the good in it. Plus, I did enjoy. I don't love crafts, and I went into the city last night to see the amazing clay, Dorian Gray, the Art Center and was really good. And he was absolutely pumping and packed. And in my head, I was just like, oh, I want to get out of here like I did. I did like that quiet, but the lockdown actually offered. But boy, I'm certainly glad that you know, we're getting back to a type of normal to Yeah, that's it isn't it? All right, well, the other the other lovely topic I talked about is identity. And, again, this is completely individual to everyone. So everyone's take on this is different, too, which is good. Whether you sort of had a shift in the way you saw yourself, either positively or negatively, or how the concept of your own identity might have changed when you did become a mum. That's a really interesting one to think about. Because I feel like it was a it was a it's been a slow burn. And I feel like it's an evolving shifting identity because a mum of a newborn is a different mum to a mum of a six year old, in my experience, there's different there's different different things you have to navigate. And so what becomes you know, your focus is ever changing. And I feel like with that, you know, you're you're ever changing to kind of keep up with it as well. But I do remember having this was literally like a sliding door moment when because I was induced for my labor because I had a lot of anxiety around giving birth. And I was booked in to go and had my baby. And I remember walking out the front door of our house. And as I was walking towards the door, opening it and thinking, this is the last time I'll leave this house, not as a mum and shutting the door behind me and sort of thinking like that, like it really felt like closing a chapter. That was there's something really sad about that it felt like saying sort of goodbye to a part of myself, and myself. That was all I knew up until till that point. And but being very open to what lie ahead, but also slightly terrified. And then next thing you know, there's this little baby bear that you're you're responsible for, and oh my gosh, I can't even articulate the identity shift. Like it's, and I think, look, I can speak about it from an artist point of view because being an artist, or being a creative person has always been such a big part of my identity. And for me, that has always taken up a lot of time in my life. And so to then have that time less available because you know, a newborn is one is all consuming and trying to come to terms with that part of me being just maybe on hold for a little bit. But even still, I was I sort of I couldn't I couldn't keep it on hold for very long. You know, I was having meetings with clients fairly soon after and they'd come over because then you're not long ago I had a baby and I'd be sitting on the couch breastfeeding, you know, little two month old bye Maybe while we're having meetings about, you know, different stuff and the clients I had at the time, were awesome about it, actually, they were really supportive of, you know, me wanting to get back to work. And I felt really empowered actually working in and feeding a baby at the same time. Yeah, yeah, I remember, I remember taking bales on a photo shoot, that I was styling and producing. And I had him strapped to me and I was carrying around props. And I remember just thinking like, this is actually fun. Like, I'm actually I can work and have this baby and take care of him and be still being creative. And so I sort of just ease back into it, like, you know, one bit at a time and but I was quite quick to do that. But I didn't take a long break without making any art or doing anything creative at all. And I just sort of had to do it in a way where I sort of explored what was and wasn't possible with him. Yep. You know, I've got a I don't know why must have come up as a must have come up with a phone memory. A photo of bales in his little bouncer next to me while I'm hot glue gunning a hydrangea spike hydrangea to a headband for you for a headpiece for a friend. And I just thought, you know, that's actually looked back on that photo quite fondly, you know that I was still able to keep being creative and it's wasn't without its challenges. There were certainly would have been times of frustration, but they don't stick out in my memory. Yeah. I don't look back on that time as as being particularly challenging, but I don't I'm not suggesting that it wasn't. Yeah, it just doesn't stick out that way. Yeah, yeah. Because I think I feel like with parenting I can do I don't know if what your thoughts on this are, but you do tend to just remember the the parts you know, this, say having a newborn that's so hard. And there'd be times I remember where I was like, oh my god, like, is this day really happening? Could it be any worse, but they're not the days that stick out? It's the loves what sort of stick with me from those those times? So, yeah, so my identity, I think has I'd say I work pretty hard to try and maintain my sense of self, my creative sense of self. And that's had to be a conscious effort because Because being a parent is you know, becomes such a big focus to keep that creativity alive and nurtured you know, did require some conscious effort and planning. But I've certainly found it to be possible did you sort of have any thoughts or expectations of how the two worlds would coexist the day to day parenting and the creative work? Well, I was recommended. One book actually called I think it was called you probably know it. Motherhood and creativity is that well, it's home Rachel power of the divided heart. I think so. It's got all the like Clare Bowditch different creative people in it is that's cool. I had Rachel on that episode last season, because we've been recommending me this book. I've never read it. And I've felt really embarrassed that I'd never read it because it's amazing. And I can understand why it resonated with so many people. So I messaged her on Instagram and said, Can I have you on my podcast? And she came on and it was amazing. And it's one of the one of the most like amazing moments like that. Yeah. But yes, I know. A wonderful book. I'm sure a lot of people listening know the book, too. Yeah, so I did read that. Now. To be honest, I can't remember whether I read it before after I had had my son. But I look, I know that book had a lot more to offer than this. But at the time, my biggest take out from it was it sounds like I'm gonna need a nanny because I kept reading all these success stories of these creative women getting on with the creative practice. But there would seem to be many of those stories, you know, like a nanny or someone kind of. And at that time, I thought, Oh, I don't know, the thought of, I've never, I've never grown up with having a nanny, or, you know, it would just sort of wasn't kind of on my radar. So, it what that did though was it gave me the confidence and maybe green light, if you like, if I'd had any hesitation to, to get help, you know, I would have people come and look after my son, you know, that I would pay to come and look after him so I could get on with my work. And I did, that book did make me realize that that was, you know, perhaps as part of the reality of what might need to be done at certain times, if you do want to get on with your work. And look, my memory of that book is a little a little fuzzy, because it was some time ago that I read it. So I hope I'm not misrepresenting it. When I'm speaking about it, but that was my my biggest take out was that, you know, getting help is you know, was caring for your child is okay. And, yeah. And, you know, perhaps essential in the world that we live in, and with how, you know, our society is generally the primary carer and, and so on, you'd have expected that you take to village kind of philosophies from previous generations. Yeah. And when you don't have like, that much of a village around you, like I mentioned, you know, our parents are, you know, geographically away from us. You eat sometimes just might have to rent a village. Yeah. But, you know, that sort of gave me that, I don't want to say permission, but the reassurance that, you know, you don't have to do it all yourself, and you can, you can ask for help. And whether that's, you know, in people's situations are different, whether it's, you know, like you said, you can you, you pay someone to come in, or you've got your neighbor or whatever, it's, I think we've lost that feeling that we can ask for help. I think we've become a lot more insular in this, you know, particularly our generation that you've got to do it all yourself, you've got to be the super mum that handles everything. And then if you don't get it, right, oh, no, you haven't been a good mum, you know, whereas my mum, you know, they, they asked the neighbor to babysit, or, you know, it's changed a lot. Yeah, and I think that's it What have you got coming up that you can share that you're working on or anything that's, that's coming out in the future? Well, lots actually, it's been a very busy, very busy year. And the tricky thing with my work is often you know, I'm working six to sometimes 12 months in advance of when things actually coming to life. So I have to keep a lot of stuff, you know, quiet for a long time. And when I'm so excited about it can be really hard. But I've got some great things coming to life. So I've just worked on a beautiful collaboration with namely co so they do beautiful, custom knitted blankets and some beautiful little apparel pieces. And so we've done flow Harris, namely ko collaboration that is coming out very soon. And the team behind namely, is just fantastic. And I've been really enjoying that, you know, collaborative process with them. I've been really fortunate in general, actually, that the partners that I work with are such nice people and very clever and very creative and wonderful collaborators so that it's often a very joyful experience. So that's a really exciting collaboration that is coming out soon. And what is really massive news to me is that I'm launching my own label. So Fleur Harris, will be stocked in David Jones. come October. I've worked with him. Thank you. I've worked with an amazing team. To bring this to life. It's been months and months and months of hard work. Hard but fun work if it's been the most fantastic process and we've designed it is the most beautiful looking and beautiful quality apparel for babies up to eight years old. It's really exciting. And so that's that's kind of a milestone moment for me in my career. Because typically, I've always, you know, released, designed and release products through collaborations, whereas this is completely under my own name. So it's a big stepping stone and a little bit scary, but also very exciting because the product is so beautiful. So well done. Oh, thank you, thank you, it still doesn't feel real. So I think it won't be until I go in to David Jones and see it on the shelf that I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, there's a flyer section in Davy Jones, I can't believe another really exciting news is that Adairs kids and I are celebrating being in our fifth year of our collaboration together. And so we are re releasing some of the most popular prints, there's some new colorways there's some new products being added to some of the like, the more iconic collections, like the woodlands collection, we've got some new pieces coming out in that we've done a whole new photo shoots. And it's really nice to kind of just take a moment to pause and stop and celebrate, you know, what we've achieved together. And because it's not often that collaborations lasts so long, and it's so endearing. So to have built that relationship with them and created this world of beautiful products, children together is so nice to stop and celebrate, you know? Yeah. And I think that's something we don't do, too. We don't, we don't, I think we feel like we shouldn't, we shouldn't have that ego, to be proud of ourselves or celebrate, but definitely have to celebrate moments like that. It's easy to sometimes not be able to find the moment, you know, because because often different projects or different things you've got going on in your life happen in stages, you know, and so it can be hard to work out well, when is our champagne moment. And so it feels nice that we've actually decided to sort of mark that, that milestone and, and be grateful for it and happy about it. So that's really nice to be able to do to take stock in, you know, reflect on that. And they always do things in a really beautiful way. So I've had a peek at the photoshoot that they've put together, where they're actually mashed up quite a few different collections and put them all on in this one sheet. So this is one bed that's kind of got a bit of everything in it, which actually, actually looks really good. So yeah, it's nice to see ya. Good on. Yeah, that's congratulations on your successes. And so well, I think that the attitude, and like what you bring to your work is such a beautiful way of working. And I've just, I hope, wishing you so much success in the future. And I'm sure that your work will endure, as you've said, like five years with one collaboration is pretty significant. And I'm so looking forward to seeing what you put, like what comes out, you know, thank you, Alison can work you can keep bringing to the world. It's so wonderful. Sorry, lovely. Thank you, Alison. That is really very kind of you. And I must express my admiration and appreciation for what you do too, because you've got a lot going on in your life and a lot of your own creative projects going on. And this podcast and I know how much work must go into putting this together for you. And I think there's a lot to be said for women who aren't being proactive in uplifting and giving a platform to other women. You know, we have international women's day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I'm really, I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Thank you for It's so lovely for you to say that you're a great example of a great woman. Thank you. Yeah, good on you at all. I just love it. Love it so much. It's been really nice speaking today. It has it's been so lovely. Thank you so much for coming on. I've just really loved chatting. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to connect either leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** ​ My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. ​ Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. ​ What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. ​ Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - ​ Music used with permission - Alemjo ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Madison Foley Australian trumpet player S1 Ep12 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Madison Foley is one of Melbourne’s most sought-after trumpet players. Madison began performing professionally from the age of 16 and Madison was a long-time touring member of alt-pop outfit Architecture in Helsinki and has worked with many of Australia’s greats such as Ash Grunwald, Jazzlab Orchestra and Big Scary . Upon returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum but the pressures of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organisers. She realised the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We also discuss the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic, and the judgement faced by gigging mums - that dads don't have to contend with, and why she doesn't get caught up in "mum guilt" Connect with Madison on facebook and instagram Read Madison's The Mother Lode article and infographic here Find out more about Madison's bands Fools and JazzLab Orchestra Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Madison Foley. Madison is one of Melbourne's most sought after trumpet players. She started performing professionally at the age of 16 and has been a longtime touring member of alt pop outfit architecture in Helsinki. She's worked with many of Australia's greats such as Ashkelon world, jazz lab orchestra, and big scary. After returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum, but the pressure of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations, and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organizers. She realized the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We chat not only about this infographic, but we also discussed the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the COVID 19 epidemic. The judgment faced by gigging mums that dads just don't have to contend with and why she doesn't get caught up in mum guilt. Welcome to the podcast Madison, it's lovely to have you today. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be very excited. So you played the trumpet. Tell us how you got into playing the trumpet. So my, my dad was a brass band still is a brass band leader in the community and Tom music at school. And so he came around to our primary school actually. And they had all the instruments out so they were starting a primary school band program. I was all of five years old at the time, I think maybe six. And I walk up to the guy, I'm precocious little six year old and I go hi, I want to know, which is the loudest instrument I want to play that one and so they had me a corner the rest is history. You know so going up through you know, started in primary school went through the local community bands and into high school played the whole way through. You know, I ended up doing it at university and you know, just never put it down again since I was five years old, basically from a couple of small breaks but yeah, that's pretty confident in my life. So what how many instruments do you play? Well look, well I played the trumpet Well, poorly a lot of them I can play very bad keyboard and very very bad bass. Nearly no mostly bad drums can play a little bit of trouble I can play most of the brass instruments I can play a bit of trombone a bit tube or a bit of French on although my trombone playing sisters would probably beg to differ. But you know, they've not none of them really get a lot of love. Now it's mostly just the trumpet. Because at some stage in your life, you kind of have to focus in on one thing which has never been my strong point. I've always been someone who does everything so well I can play the trumpet so I read that you started playing professionally when you were 16 So what sort of gigs we did you start off with what was sort of the stuff you were doing at that age. Um, so at 16 I was my mom would take me down to the pub to go and watch Friends of mine Johnny wonder Pat, who I still play with now all of what that 16 years later so that was they were some of my first gigs I go down to the pub and just sit in with them. I learned a few horn lines to some tunes. They just played covers on a Sunday afternoon and they you know, they thought it was great there was this you know little 16 year old super key and little Maddie going Hi, will you let me play with you. And then I also at school we formed a little jazz group and did you know gigs for like 50 bucks each or whatever, just whoever would hire us just playing some jazz standard. So which that group actually have gone on to all be quite prolific muses themselves. There's Cleo Rana, who now plays rock winds and tours around the world with Angus and Julia Stone as Nick Abbey who's over in mapa. Now and I think he teaches there and will Morrissey, who played He's with Vance Joy, and it's all just, you know, everyone from that little group just ended up going on to do amazing things. It's pretty cool to look back on that now. But you know, there those were mostly my 16 year old gigs either at the pub or at random corporate events that wanted to hire some kids really cheap, basically. Do you so what did that sort of been leading to? You mentioned other people that you've you were with did certain things What have you done then since since those 16 year old days. So since then, I, I studied at the VCA. So I did the improvisation course there, which is jazz. And, look, I'm basically, I'm a freelance music. So I will do literally anything that anyone calls me up to do so long as it sounds like a bit of fun, but there's a bit of money in it. So I've, you know, I've done small, small group jazz, I've done plenty of big bands. So currently play with the jazz live orchestra, and helped organize that one as well. Both Dan McKenzie big band, and a few others around the place. I was in the touring band for architecture in Helsinki for years and years, which was really, really fun, we got to play some amazing concerts to 1000s of people. And, you know, I've done plenty of corporate gigs, or a lot of corporate gigs. Plenty of them going around. My current my current project, which is probably the thing I'm most excited about, in all of my music career so far is a band called falls. And it's a 13 piece, Americana, pop, rock, everything. So extravaganza, it's just the most joyful band I've ever played in without any offense to any of the other major bands are playing. It's just, it's a, we call it the love cult, because everyone just loves each other and loves making music together. So that's been that's been getting really big and going really well. But of course, with COVID, a lot of our grand plans of keep falling away, we're supposed to be touring in about six weeks time, up to New South Wales and Queensland, to do Caloundra and, and a blues fest, and Nashville, but all of those things are not looking super likely. But hopefully, hopefully fools keeps getting out there and keeps getting some of those very cool gigs and planning tours overseas and everything. So it's exciting times for that. And that's nice, because that's something I get to be really creative with as well, all the other, you know, pop groups I've been in have been more, you know, this is the song, this is your home lines, play them now kind of thing. Whereas this one, I'm helping to write all the phone lines, we're writing songs off together. So it's a real kind of combined effort with 13 people, it's very, that'd be like controlled chaos, almost 13 People input. absolute chaos. It's hilarious, but it's just the most fun I have doing anything musically. It's so great. Oh, that's awesome. Because I guess you're doing a lot of corporate gigs, you'd sort of be doing the songs that people know you'd stick to your standards. And, you know, you'd be limited, I guess to what you could do. So this would just be like, you know, open the floodgates off you go have fun with that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the jazz stuff is really creative as well. And, you know, if, if I was so inclined, you know, there's, there's plenty of creativity, I could follow in there, but I just don't have I don't have the focus to kind of sit down and write a whole set of tunes myself and you know, kind of get that all together. It just takes so much work. So it's something that I have done in the past, something I maybe would do in the future. But for now I'm kind of letting that one, you know, the the jazz side of things. I'm just doing the big bands and then letting the creativity come out in falls. Wow, that sounds awesome. So I've got to ask you, did you ever come to Mount Gambia for generations in jazz? Yes. As Gambia tragic I still am I've you know, I forced my school to let me take my big band there. That was like, now Gambia was a life that was I lived for me, you know, that early weekend, in May, every year, I went to Wellesley College, which was you know, a big kind of big band school, my dad actually took the band there. So it was all we ever talked about from like, you know, about October through to May everything was about generations in jazz and you know, going into there and getting like just getting exposed to all those amazing music shows on the stage was amazing. And then going back as an as an adult and as a teacher has been really lovely as well and kind of seeing it change and into something completely different now. It's been really nice to be part of that and share that with my students now and see them experience that joy. Pretty cool. It's growing so much. I remember mom taking me when we were kids, when they used to be Girl, I think her name was Kelly. And she played saxophone on on her head Sunday. And I remember seeing her play. We're only at this Robert Hillman Theatre, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but it's basically your normal size data. Yeah. And now it's grown to I don't know how many 1000s people, it's the biggest tent in the southern hemisphere. Like all this, it's gone bonkers. And it's so wonderful. We've missed a couple of years. I remember seeing Kelly early as well, I've played in a lot of women's section with her since she's one of the ways to play with the mice. So if you ever see her, tell her I remember seeing it when I was a little girl, I would have only been probably, I don't know, to 1213, maybe maybe a bit older. But yeah. It's such a generational thing. And my whole family are involved, you know, because my dad took the Wesley guy and now takes the St. Leonard's band, my sister was taking the law, the whole band, to just schools in Melbourne, my younger sister was taking the band from Caulfield, like it was you know, we had all of us there, my uncle was volunteering there. So when you you know, every year we get a family photo at generations in jazz, and just all have a laugh about the fact that the whole family is still there, we just can't get away from it. Just let me speak for union come together in my life, it's a real shame that hasn't been able to happen the past couple of years you been able to do any teaching during COVID, like you're you locked down in, in Melbourne, it's great. Because I've been basically I've been filling in for the girl that was filling in for me at the school, so I I've been able to, you know, do my teaching, go back look, after Sam come back, you know, do another class go back and kind of share those duties, which has been really nice. It's actually been quite handy for me in terms of the thing locked in. And, you know, I've got all my resources from last year. And I'm probably one of the few teachers who actually quite enjoys online teaching, I love the challenge of it, you know, having to find different ways to present it and different ways to engage students using the technology. And it's just incredible how much we can do from home, you know? Yeah, I've been doing a fair bit of teaching from there. And then all these other little bits and pieces of you know, everyone's getting into the lockdown recordings again. So I did one last week, I think, for all day for it, which is like a kid's band slash jazz band, which is pretty fun. Falls, we're doing another one this week. We were doing one every couple of weeks back last year, which was very fun. So you know, it's, it's kind of, it's nice to do things in a different way and just change it up a bit. So I like looking at the positives here. And you know, just different sets a different way of living, but I kind of like it. My partner and I were supposed to get married last year, and then we're going we're gonna go on a great European adventure. We put all this cash aside, we've been saving our butts off to, to do all of that. And none of it happened. So and then I was getting maternity leave. And he's, he's kind of back at work now. So we've been lucky throughout all of it that we haven't had to struggle with gigs being canceled and stuff. I mean, we've lost plenty of money. But yeah, it's we've been thought more fortunate than others. So you mentioned Sam then so tell me about your little person. Sorry, my little person he's about is just about 10 months old. He is the absolute life of my life is the best thing that's ever happened. You know, I was very happy and very fulfilled person before having a kid. But I always knew I wanted a baby. I always not always know so I was terrified of children until I was about 23. And then I actually looked after one of my trumpet idols Ingrid Jensen in New York. I actually helped babysit her baby a few times just through you know, mutual friends and I was there and I didn't have a job and ended up kind of nannying for a couple of weeks. And I was like, actually, I love children. This is amazing. And from then on, it was like, Alright, this is something I want to do in life. So then, yeah, being with my wonderful partner, Carlo. I mean, we knew each other back when I was probably 1718 Just hanging out in the music crowds because he's a saxophone and woodwind player. He does all the jazz gigs and stuff but more so now he does in musical theater. So he plays for all Big shows. So we just knew each other through mutual friends for years and years, and then actually, jokingly got engaged about 10 years ago, I called the bouquet and I said, I'll call I don't have anyone to marry. And he said, Don't worry about it, I'll marry you. And I know, okay, and then, you know, like another, like, five or so years down the track. We ended up, you know, finding each other and going, Oh, this is a pretty cool little thing. And, you know, as things went along, and you know, from the start, I was like, I want to have kids just so, you know, this is a thing, and we were both very, you know, by very happy with that path. And then yeah, we kind of decided to, you know, not stop trying, but you know, not prevent anything and just see what happens, just throw caution to the wind. And, you know, lo and behold it a year and a half later, little Sam came into the world. So we found out we were pregnant, just at the very start of COVID. So it was kind of pretty scary times. And, you know, it was a bit of a surprise, because like, yeah, we've been going along for however long and going okay, like, you know, it's not gonna happen yet. That's all right. And we've been planning our wedding. So at the start of last year, we actually went, you know, what, maybe this year isn't a good time, maybe we should like, wait a little bit longer. And you know, until the timings a bit better. And as soon as we said that, of course. They got me pregnant. And yeah, then had, you know, nine months later, we had little Sam and so he's, you know, he's crawling now he's walking. Now he talks a lot like his mum. And like his dad, really. But he looks like me. So he's, he's good. Because of the pregnancy found out on the first of March, which, you know, thinking back to the timeline, that was kind of when things were starting to creep out of China and into other countries. It hadn't quite come to Australia yet. There was only maybe a couple weeks shy of that. But it was on its way. I remember coming out of staff briefing in the morning. So I was working. At the time, I was working full time as a head of Performing Arts. And I was also studying part time, 20 hours a week and doing gigs as well. So I was pretty busy. And I just I just handed in an assignment on the day, we found out I'd handed in my second last assignment, so I was exhausted. And we came out of a briefing like the next day and, you know, our, our principal and said to us, Look, we have to start being really careful, this thing is going to come to us, it's going to get very serious. And I was walking with a colleague and she said, Oh man, my my sister in law's pregnant, how much would it suck to be pregnant right now, and I just started bawling my eyes out on my way to my house drove off is just cry. Because I just thought, this is such an unknown. We don't know what this thing is. We don't know what it means for pregnancy for you know, an unborn baby, for a young baby, we just don't know. And so it was a pretty challenging time, mentally and emotionally. You know, and then in the weeks to come, you know, I had a lot of gigs that I just, I was so scared of what would happen if I got COVID. And it turned into almost like an anxiety about you know, if I get COVID The baby's not going to be okay. So I had to cancel geeks, but I couldn't tell anyone I had to I was working from home for school well before anybody else was, but I couldn't tell anyone why I couldn't come in from meetings. I couldn't come in, you know, it was all very, like, keep me away from everyone. And my principal was really supportive of that. But I think my pregnancy was probably the worst kept secret in Melbourne. Everyone just just looked at me when I okay. Yeah, we figure why you can't come in, but nobody can say anything. Yeah, so it was tricky, because we had to like, you know, keep up pretenses of I've just got a pre existing condition, but everyone knew exactly what was going on. So yeah, you know, then moving along, it was it was tricky, kind of going through and not being able to have family around during the lock downs. I mean, my My poor mom, you know, didn't really get to see me pregnant very much. I just send her photos all the time. And that was that was really tough for her as well to because she lives all the way over the other side of town. There was no way we could even catch up for walks or anything like my sisters live close, Carlos family live close, but my parents live quite far away. And so just not getting to see them. I think I didn't see my dad through the whole or maybe once through the whole pregnancy. It was really tough and definitely took it out. I'll emotionally and in, played on those anxieties a lot. And then I've got a bit sick later on in the pregnancy I got had gestational diabetes, which was an it was a late diagnosis, and I had to be admitted to hospital. And it was all of these things, and it kind of all just snowballed. And, you know, it was, yeah, by the time he came, I was ready to not be pregnant anymore. But then at the same time, you kind of look back and you go, you get to those last few days, and you go, Oh, I kind of like him being in there. And like feeling the cakes, and I like, you know, not having a baby to look after 24 hours a day just yet, you know. But yeah, we ended up ended up getting induced because of the gestational diabetes. And they thought that he was already four kilos at 36 weeks old, or 36 weeks gestation. So they were like, We need to get this child out. Otherwise, he's going to destroy, he did anything. He destroyed me coming out, they had to use the forceps. And, you know, he was he was in all kinds of all kinds of stress and whatnot, but still managed to have a vaginal delivery, which was wonderful. And had the epidural already. So I was having an absolute ball in that room. I just like, I got in there. And I was like, put this thing in my back auto kit as early as possible. I just don't want to feel a thing. And I'll tell you what, we were sitting there. We had disco lights going. We had like people on FaceTime. We were playing games, we're watching TV, we're hanging out chatting a few naps, by the time you just like, ah, be cool, that's fine. It's great, I would highly recommend doing it. I want to ask you, I have never played a winning strip. I'm a singer. So I struggled a lot when I was pregnant, breathing and getting the air in the diaphragm. Really? Was that an issue for you like physically being able to play? Absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways, I'm kind of grateful for having been in lockdown for a lot of the pregnancy, especially the lighter part for that reason, because I didn't ever have to push myself to a point where I went, No, I can't do this anymore. Because all I was doing was, like I said, like ISO recording, it's kind of thing. And so I could do as many tapes of them as I needed, I could do them in a few shots. And I was like if you say that the law schools recording, I had call it pregnant Tammy and continue to be like I mean, it was hard enough, just going for a walk around the block, let alone getting enough air to play the trumpet. So I think if if I hadn't been in normal life trying to do that, I think there probably would have come a point where I just would have had to go no more. So it's kind of nice that I never had to make that decision and and push it to that point. I just got to maybe 30 about 34 weeks and I just mind you this column I can't do anymore. That's fine. I've gotten up I don't need to I was still playing for work up until that stage just playing along with my students and whatnot. But yeah, definitely the breathing thing is hard. Luckily, you know, as soon as the baby's gone, like that all goes you know, your organs move back into place, and it's like they're so similar singing and brass playing. It's all about the diaphragm and all about the, you know, the way that you use it air and the speed of the air and everything just would be really hard. But I've read about people playing trumpet up until 3839 weeks, you know, I think it can happen, but I think those people are very special. I first came across you on the motherlode website. And you've done this amazing article and infographic about the challenges of pumping while you're digging, and I just related to that instantly, and I was like, oh my god, I get this totally I understand. I've pumped in some wacky places and some weed times and I thought, This is wonderful. Someone's actually done something about it. So tell us how that came about. Well, I'm trying to do something about it. You know, it's it's such it's probably the biggest challenge I've faced as a parent. Which sounds like it sounds so trivial, but people don't understand how hard it is and how demoralizing it is to spend all of your break sitting in dingy toilet stall, trying to keep all your beautifully sterilized equipment still sterile when you know the pits all over the floor. And it's like, it's really tough. It kind of came about I have when so when I was pregnant through lockdown, I had to really seek out some opportunities to talk to people who are also pregnant. And it just so happened that there were seven other female users in Melbourne, who I knew who were also pregnant. And like so one kind of emailed me and then said, Hey, Maddie, I saw you're expecting a baby. So a week. And then another one that hey, Maddie, yeah, we're also pregnant. All right, like, and so it just kind of, they all started writing to me, and I went, Wait a second, maybe we could turn this into a group. So we started our, our, what do we call it music moms group. And it was a, like a Facebook Messenger group, pregnancy support group, we do zooms kind of every week or two, and just talk about what was going on how we were feeling shared, you know, experiences of pregnancy, all of our fears about, you know, post, you know, giving birth and what that would look like, how we were going, you know, everything and it was just the most beautiful group, and they still are the most beautiful group of humans who just kind of pump each other up and keep each other going. And so now it's turned into from a pregnancy group, everyone's now had their babies, and it's a, it's a, you know, parents group, and we catch up, you know, pretty locked down, we we catch up every so often we get our Barb's together, they have a play, we have a talk or a drink, or beer or whatever we can do. All the guys come along, as well. They're mostly musicians, as well. And so it's turned into this amazing kind of support group. So when I was, you know, early on, when doing lots of gigs, through that kind of, you know, summer, you know, February, March, April, May season when things were really busy. And I was going out, you know, two, maybe three nights a week, and, you know, pumping in all kinds of places. And it was just feeling so hard. I mean, I got to the point of wanting to either give up and just, you know, go with formula, or, you know, if I'm doing it felt overwhelming, you know, having to take all of the equipment, you know, you're in these, you know, you're in a nice dress for the gig and you have to get the whole dress off, you have to put everything on you have to strap the things in, you have to plug them in, you have to turn the thing on, then you have to sit there for 15 minutes, then you have to wash everything. And then you have to get all back into your little box and into the bag. And the whole process takes the entire break if not longer. And I just so I'd be writing to my news. Oman's groups just being like, guys, is anyone else finding this really hard? And it was it was a shared experience that we were all going? How, like, how can we make this any better? How can we then it's so hard to, you know, keep pumping and keep doing this in the way that we're doing it. Some of the mums are amazing. And they will just like pull out all their gear and pump in front of anyone and sit there in the front row during the set break or whatever, and do it for me. I couldn't I couldn't get across. I ran having like literally having my nipples out in front of people. I'm very happy breastfeeding in front of people because there's a baby's head there, you know, but pumping feels a lot more exposed. And so I tried to think about how we could possibly just inform people of what you know what, what it is why it's important how they can make it easier. I was inspired by a Linda chintzy, who's in our museum moms group. She's going back. She's the leading Moulin Rouge. And she was saying you know that the the company have made all these amazing accommodations. She's got a five month old, I think I'm really sorry, forgot that wrong. But she's got a little Holly rose. And they've made all of these accommodations to make sure that she can keep pumping and have Holly there to feed and have her partner there to bring her in and all of that. And I thought, you know if they can make those accommodations, maybe other people can do. So I was doing I did three gigs for four gigs for the mid summer festival in Melbourne. And I just put it out there and I just wrote to the people who are organizing the gig and said, Hey, I'm a breastfeeding mom. Here's some things that would be really good if I could have my own room to pump in or just a private room with a door that I could just say to people hey, I'm going into pump right now. You know if I could have a fridge to store the milk in if I could have access to a sink so these are just all the things that the the IDA or the you know, Fair Work actually say that you need to have in your workplace, but obviously it's harder when your work pace changes every week. And you know what? They came back and they said yes, and they they gave me those things and I went ah But this is possible. It's not always possible. But it is possible a lot of the time for people to actually organize these things. And they were beautiful about it. They had my name on the door and they have my partner's name. They'd put everything in there that I could possibly need. And I just, I thought, let's try and make this people know that they can ask for these things. And so I started to become more vocal about it. And then, using those new moms groups, I actually workshopped and found out what they were finding hard, what their suggestions are that we could put into it and came up with this infographic that basically just says, Here, here's a bunch of things you can do. Firstly, here's why it's important, we need to keep our milk supply up. And to do that, you have to pump every three to four hours, we need to be able to have a space to do it, it takes 25 minutes, at least, you know. And so here's a list of things that you can do as a bandleader, as a venue manager, to make sure that people who are pumping or breastfeeding can feel comfortable to do it at your venue or at your gig. And the the response when I put it out to Facebook was just amazing. Like I was overwhelmed, I thought a few people would sit and be like, oh, cool, that's great. I might borrow that and show it to some people like it got shared over to New Zealand, it got shared all around Melbourne and, and a bunch of different places. And I think people have really taken it on board. I know a lot of people that I work with have been like, you know, we're going into a set and the set time has been changed. They've been like, hey, Maddie, if you need to leave early to go and pump, you know, that's fine, but set time has changed. Just leave whenever you have to. So they're making those accommodations. I mean, I really do, but it's nice to just be considered in that way and know that we have the option to like, hey, if I really need to park right now I can just walk off and go kind of thing. So it's it's been quite a journey and then during the motherlode motherlode interview was amazing as well, Georgia fields is incredible. And you know, made it all sounds so lovely and succinct or my you know, ramblings but it's, it's been a real journey. And I kind of coming over the other side of it now, you know, being 10 months old. You know, he's he's getting to the stage where he only has like, a few feeds a day. And it's like, wow, I survived that I survived that having to pump and having to feed every three hours, when those days where I was out at a gig out of town, and I was, you know, out of the house for 12 hours. It's like, it's a lot. And I feel quite, I feel quite proud of myself and all the other moms that have done that and been through it and made it you know, made it work. Yeah, absolutely. No good on you. I was so impressed when I saw it. And it probably I can think of times when it would have come in really handy because I, I guess I never thought to ask it was never it never occurred to me that that I could ask it was just like, well, this is your thing. So you need to sort it out. I never sort of thought I never Yeah, it just never occurred to me. So well done you round of applause. On the interview with the motherlode, you said something like times when you've been pumping in a really yucky toilet stall and, you know, close to tears, and you wondered, was it worth it? Probably not at that moment, but later did you sort of you obviously thought that it was because you kept going it was really important to you to be able to maintain that milk supply for your baby. But also, you know, it was important for you to keep playing and to to keep that part of your life really active as well. Absolutely. I, I, I know that I'm a better mom, because I have my music as well. I really feel that deep down in my soul that they're having the music especially, you know, and like doing the corporate gigs and everything, it's a bit of fun, you get a bit of money, it's pretty good. But they're things like falls and those jazz gigs that really feed my soul. I come back home and I'm completely revitalized as a parent, you know, getting that time away from Sam, who is the most important and the most beautiful thing in my whole entire world. But getting the time away from him, actually makes me appreciate him so much more. I mean, I was he was six weeks old when I did my first recording session back. And they were I was out of the house for maybe eight hours. I mean, I hadn't been away from him for that long, obviously. And it was you know, I thought I would really struggle. But it was it was an amazing recording session, syncing south with falls and I came home and I just felt I felt like myself again. After six weeks of being completely attached to this small human and just being at his whim, whatever he needed. He needed. Get on that moment. And, you know, I got to go away, step away from it and come back. And I was so grateful for that time. And I'm also so grateful that my amazing partner Carlo, you know, does everything he's, he's not scared and looking after the baby out or you know, and he's been hands on from the very start. I mean, because there was no theater, you know, for the first eight months of Sam's life Carlo has been with us, aside from his teaching pretty much full time. So we've been able to really manage that between the two of us. But yeah, they're having the gigs to go to, I think keeps me sane. You know, before I went back to teaching, it was the thing that kind of made me feel like me again. And I think that's so important for, for creative parents to still have those things I, I was never going to put down my trumpet and not play as a parent. And also, I'm a really stubborn human being. And if someone tells me like, Oh, you're not going to want to play much once here, once you have your baby, you're going to want to just stay home. I was like, I heard shorts your show. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right, watch me go. And so now I'm gonna be a bit more determined than before, I think I've been practicing even more than I was, before I had a baby, because I'm just like, You know what, I want to go out there and show people that being a mum. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mum does not stop you from being an amazing musician, and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so all your backup gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm paying better than I was beforehand, so that you've put so much effort into, like all the background, they just see you at the gig, they haven't seen you prepare everything at home, have the milk ready, you know, do everything you need to do to make sure you can do this gig, because the similar thing happened to me. I did my first gig that we did the when he was seven weeks old. And same thing someone said to me, oh, where's your baby? And I was just like, if you knew what I have, I've moved heaven and earth to make this day possible. So I was playing up at Coonawarra, which is about an hour away. And I was there for about five hours. So I was away from him for a while. thought you've got no idea. I That's my that is my pet peeve. And people ask it in a nice way. And they ask it with the most like sincerity and they go, oh, where's the baby? And that's one question that I just can't stand because it just kind of grates on me because it makes you feel like, oh, I should be looking after, should I be looking after the baby, we're like, you know, it's like the babies with his dad, he's fine. You've done so much to be able to, you know, go into a gig now isn't just like you know, or you've done your practice on the days before you just you know, get your tribe and walk out the door. Going to a gig now means scheduling time in for practice every day leading up to it to make sure that you're on top of it, which I reckon I'm more on top of my gigs now because I have to schedule things I have to make that time doing all the pumping, getting the bottles ready, getting the food ready, making sure the babysitters sorted, making sure everyone knows where everything is, you know, what's the bedtime routine? You know, have I fed the kid now? Should I feed him right before I go? It's such a different thing now. And, and for people to be questioning that and be like, oh, where's the baby? It's something that really great for me. Maybe I should make another infographic about not asking that question. I think I just I'm very passionate about you know, I am you know, Loki quite a feminist. And one of the things that really bugs me is, you know, when I think about would people ask a dad about that? Would they say do you know, is their dad guilt? Or, you know, Dad comes into a gig gig or goes to work and someone says, oh, where's your baby? That doesn't happen, you know? Or someone says, Oh, you're back getting already Wow, that's amazing, like, hold on you. That just doesn't happen. And so you know, the mom guilt thing. I think dad should be feeling it just as much and I'm lucky enough that my partner feels a lot of dad guilt. He comes home, you know, when he goes out to work and he calls me and he says, Can you send me a photo? I miss him? You know? And I think that the the feeling that it should be all on mums to be there and to be looking after everything. It's not fair. It's not equitable. Having said that, you know, we do of course, we miss our kids. Like, I miss Sam so much when I go out to a gig, I do miss him and I look at photos and I show everyone photos. You know, I miss him and I go, Oh, but no part of me ever feels like oh, I should be at home. It's not fair to him, because it wouldn't be fair to him if I was at home all the time, and I was a sad person because of it. And so that's why I just think you've got to look at the balance of things. Yeah, he's gonna miss me for a few hours, but I'm going to be a better mom because of it. And I really, truly believe that making, like doing the work that we do anything that makes you feel happy and passionate, you know, that makes you a better person and a better parent. And so you can't feel guilty for taking that time. And I really do I look at music completely differently. Now, you know, when I go out to do my gigs, it's not like, we're gonna go do a gig. Now it's like, this is my time, this is my time to do something that makes me feel really good, and nourishes my soul. And that's going to make me feel better about being at home. So, I don't know, if I answered the question at all, but my take on mom guilt, you know, don't feel it just don't cuz we're allowed to go out and do these things to our souls to, it's so important. I think moms often get put in until a man box. And people go, you should be looking after your kid, you know, you shouldn't be doing things for yourself. And that's that, that kind of thrown on my heart, like, you know, we completely surrender were expected to completely surrender everything about ourselves to be apparent. But it's just not feasible in the long run, if you want to be a happy and whole person. I am a trumpet player. And I'm passionate about that. I'm a music teacher. And I'm very passionate about that, too. And I'm a mom, and I'm very passionate about that. And I can still be all of those three things. And they don't have to, I mean, they're going to impact each other. Of course they are, but they don't have to cancel each other out. You can't only be one of those. I mean, you don't have to just be one of those things. And, you know, I think keeping my identity has, like I said earlier, it's kept me sane, it's it kept me feeling like parenting is the most amazing thing on earth. And it truly is. Because I've been able to keep that part of myself and share with Sam to like, he's coming out to a bunch of gigs. He's got his little headphones on. I think the first thing the first gig he came out to potentially was New Year's Eve, and myself and Carlo were playing together. So my mom and my stepdad came along and held sat there, and he watched us play. And he of course, would have had no idea was going on because he was only like eight weeks old. But playing for Sam felt amazing. It just felt like a completely different experience to be able to share my craft with him, you know. And so I want that I want him to grow up knowing that that's a part of me, and also having that be a part of him and want him to be proud of me to I want him to see me on stage and see his dad on stage and go, Hey, that's, that's my mom. That's my dad, how cool is that? I just really want him to think I'm cool. That's what? Well, my musicians as well. So you know, I always saw them on stage. And it was just, I was so proud. I thought they were the coolest people ever. I was like, Oh my gosh, look at that singing and dancing around. It's so cool. And, you know, I just think it's such an amazing thing for kids to grow up seeing their parents, you know, pursuing their like, the things that make them happy and doing it publicly as well as even better. Did it surprise you? You know, there's been so much change in terms of how breastfeeding has been accepted over the years. It's taken, you know, it's taken a while. But breastfeeding is commonly accepted pretty much everywhere now. Even if it might annoy someone. But Did it surprise you then that the pumping of the breast milk was just no one had any idea about it? It? It surprised me because I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. So I had Sam and I like I knew about breast pumps. And I knew that you you could pump milk so that you can feed them from a bottle. That's all I knew. I didn't know about maintaining supply I didn't know about you know the supply and demand part of breastfeeding. I just thought the milk was always there and you just get it out when you want it kind of thing. And so finding out that this would be part of you know, leaving the house and leaving Sam alone was that I'd have to be doing this pumping. It was actually quite upsetting. Because you know, when I started the pump, I was like wow, this is pretty intense. It takes a lot of effort to Get everything on. And then you know, when I first started pumping, nothing was coming out. And so I really had to work on relaxing and you know, looking at pictures of Sam to try and you know, get the letdown happening. And then getting out and talking to people and finding out then that they knew nothing about it too, I actually wasn't surprised that they knew nothing, because I knew nothing about it. I'd never seen somebody pump before. I'd never talked to people about pumping before. So me being the loudmouth. I am, I went out and started telling everyone all about it, I get to a gig and be like, right, guys, I need to pump it this time. I need to pump it this time. Here's why I need to do it. You want to see the equipment? Look, here's some of my milk. Isn't this amazing? Like, how cool was the human body? And you know, a lot of people just said, Wow, I had no idea. But it didn't surprise me because neither did I. It's not really talked about everyone knows about breastfeeding. But not everyone knows about the pumping side of it. You know, or Yeah, it's, it's kind of it almost feels like it's a bit taboo. It's in the background, it's things that people don't see. And, you know, I've got a great friend of mine who had to exclusively pump for six months. And she said, by the end, she'd just walk around wearing a pumpkin no matter who was around because you just have to when you when you're exclusively pumping every three hours, it just takes up so much of your time and so much of your life. So it'd be great for that to become a little bit more visible. And that was part of you know, me getting this out there was trying to help people make it feel more normal. Hmm. Yeah, that's great. When you did find out about the effort that was involved, did you ever have a moment where you just thought, Oh, it's just it's too much. I just did you ever have that moment where you thought now I can't do it. Like, it would have only been fleeting moments, I think, once I was pumping at and no human being to this venue in Melbourne, the night cat, it's known as one of like, the dingy highest venues, but also super fun. But you know, those are the nightcap toilets. So the way I used to go as a 17 year old when I was too drunk to like, you know, open a door and be like, you know, and I was pumping in there and sitting on the thing and just going, Oh, I can't touch anything. And I was like, this sucks. This sucks. Like, should I just do formula, but I really, I really just wanted to, and it was almost like a challenge within myself. I just wanted to see how long I could exclusively feed for and, you know, I just felt I feel so privileged that I was able to breastfeed, and not everyone can, you know, for medical reasons for you know, mental reasons, mental health reasons, there are so many people that just can't do it. And I you know, it came so easy to me, I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to take this for granted. It's amazing that I can give my kid the very best nutrition in the whole world. For him. There's nothing better than breast milk. I'm gonna make the most of this. And so I you know, I had my moments of wanting to give up, but they were fleeting. And you know, I kept going with it. And I'm still going with it now I still periods about, Gosh, about six times a day at 10 months old, which is a lot. But you know, we just do it. And it's, I've not ever been, you know, some people. You know, they say I love breastfeeding so much like it's a really beautiful bond between me and my baby. I'm not one of those people. I don't know why I didn't get that gene that was like, Oh, this is so beautiful and loving. I do it because it's easy and because it nourishes him and you know there are bits of it that I like it's just a lot easier mostly. You know, but we've we've kept going and I'm really glad that I did. Like you don't yeah. There's a Fire Island article on the motherlode of he's sitting on your lap, got the trumpet and it's absolutely beautiful. Well, my partner's in that photo as well. He was he was filling in with full so the two of us were at rehearsal. We were like What are we going to do we take the kid with us we put on his little headphones and he came into rehearsal. It was actually it was a pretty special moment for him to be you know, for my my whole family to be there with my full family. It was it was really lovely. And that's that photo is actually you know, the first one on social media of him is we haven't put any photos on but that just felt so special. We need it to share it. It is lovely to be able to continue that family tradition like your parents involved in their you and involving your son I think that's just beautiful, musics awesome. Always been such a such a positive thing in my world in every way possible that it just it feels like something that I want him to experience as well not necessarily to become a, you know, not to become a professional musician, but just to be able to have all of those amazing social skills that come from working in a team, you know, the the cognitive skills that come from learning music, and just the joy that comes from making music. I mean, if if you can, if you can do it, why wouldn't you? Why would you share that with your family around the piano when we were kids and dad would be playing, playing songs to us. And we just thought it was the most amazing thing ever. And I looked back at that, and I go, I'm so glad that we were introduced to music at such a young age and given the option and it was always an option, but we were given the option to pursue it in whatever way we wanted to. And we all ended up as brass players doing music degrees. Sorry, dad, he wanted doctors and lawyers. So he started the the trend of the brass in your family. Then my oldest sister started on the trombone. And then I did the trumpet. I'm the middle one. And then the younger one started on the corner as well. But I actually when I was in about year seven, I got the album's which is like the trumpet book. It's the book, you know. And I sat down and tried to play some of it with my poor little sister who was only in grade four at the time going, oh my god, I can't play there's nothing you just gotta you just play it you just do it like that. I wasn't a very good teacher then clearly. And the next day she put down a trumpet never picked it up again and picked up the trombone instead. I'm not playing the trumpet anymore, but it made me feel bad about it. Find matches a trombone player. Scottish philosopher have a lot of guilt about that. You talked about mom guilt. I've got sister guilt. Very good at the trombone now though, so it's okay. Maybe it was meant to be maybe that was her path in life you just had to guide her slightly she doesn't usually follow in my footsteps so you had to try other ones. Also want to ask you you said before about you, your muse Imams? Did you find because you were friends before you had children? Did you find them? Did you find that that there was little comparison with your muse? Oh mums group. Absolutely like that the museum moms group is super supportive. Everyone, you know, it's very real, we write about all of our challenges, you know, we write about all the really bad things, and we tell each other about the good things too. And everybody is like, there's no comparison, there's no, you know, oh, my, my child seems better than yours. Otherwise, I'd be losing pretty bad. I'm very, very high, you like it, you're right, like being already being friends. I mean, some of the a couple of the girls in the group, you know, I didn't know so well beforehand. And now we're also close, we, you know, text pretty much daily and just build each other up and just make each other feel like everything's okay. And everything's going to be okay. And I'm really lucky. Absolutely. My local parents group, there's a couple of girls in there who have become, you know, some of my closest friends, you know, and we, we really look after each other as well, you know, or living on the same street and, you know, supporting each other in that way too. So I think you can get lucky with the people you end up with, you can get unlucky, it just really depends. And I've had absolutely lucked out in finding, I even have a third mother's group. Another one. Everyone's just really amazing and supportive, and no one ever makes me feel like what my child is doing isn't okay. And I think that's such an important part of being, I think, especially among, you know, because we tend to be the ones kind of, you know, and this is generalizing, and it's not in every situation depends on your circumstances and the set of parents and whatnot. But we do tend to be the ones who kind of know where the milestones are meant to be. And we're the ones waking up generally every night if we're breastfeeding all through the night to feed the baby. So we tend to be the ones that end up getting sucked into those comparisons and those kind of competitions. And I think just being really mindful of making other people a never feel bad about what their child can or can't do. That be not, you know, not saying my child can do this to try and you know, show off but to be like, Hey, let's all rejoice in this together, my child can do this what new, you know, what is your child during this week that's really amazing and really special. Because I think it can turn into a bit of a competition. And that's, that makes me sad. But I'm so grateful that I ended up with all people around me who are just beautiful, and supportive and amazing, and I love them all so much. Life after baby really has made me kind of consider how much free time I had beforehand, even though I was working, like I was doing like 70 hour weeks, and still getting to the gym three or four times a week and still had free time outside of that. And now it's kind of like, probably the biggest surprise has been just how time consuming a child is, you know, I kind of thought you put them down for a nap. And then they'd sleep for a couple of hours and you get stuff done. And then you come back to them. And my child, beautiful Sam, he is the most incredible child on the world does not like sleep, I think he's allergic to sleep. So you know, his naps are sometimes only 15 minutes. You know, if we get really lucky, it's an hour, it really, really lucky. I think once or twice, he's done an hour and a half on his own. And I think, you know, the big thing as a musician has had to be prioritizing and scheduling. So sometimes now I have to practice the trumpet with a mute in at 11:30pm. Because that's the only time I get to do it. And I think, you know, everyone said to me beforehand, like you, you you weren't even know what you used to do with all your free time. And I was like, Dude, I'm pretty busy. Like, I know what it feels like to not have free time. Now after having a kid it's like, I know what it feels like to never have a moment to yourself. Because literally now any. And I say literally in the actual way it was meant to be used. If I have free time I'm off into the studio to practice. If he actually goes down for a nap, it's practice time. And so now I pretty much don't ever have any time to myself without the horn on my face. And that's been that's been a bit of a shock to me. I think, you know, I would I would have loved to know that beforehand that it really is that intense. And I'm sure it will get easier as we go along. And as he gets older, you know that then if we add another one to the mix, we go through the whole thing again, and then it's even more chaotic, I'm sure. But yeah, I think that's probably been one of the most surprising things as a as an artist and a mum, kind of just how much I need to use any little scrap of free time to make sure that I can still maintain my craft. Yeah, when I used to sit down and do half an hour of practice, I reckon probably 20 minutes of that was like looking on Facebook or, you know, rearranging my books or, you know, playing with a little thing on the trumpet. Now, if I sit down to practice for half an hour, I am practicing hard for half an hour, because I know that there's not going to be another half hour or if there is that I've got to use that half hour really well, you know. So it really does change the way you kind of focus and knuckle down things because there's just no, there's no room for faffing. You just can't. Alright, yeah, laughing is faffing is canceled the moment that child comes out of you. Sometimes my sisters come over to look after Sam just so I can go and practice if I'm having a particularly hard day they live close, which is lucky. But I'll just be like, Hey, guys, I haven't been able to get anything done today. And they will just come over, they'll sit with them. You know, for an hour or two, I'll get some washing done, I'll jump in the studio or have a shower or whatever it is and, and having that support has made it all possible. You know, you just need people you need, you know, you need a village to make it all work. I'm so lucky that I have an amazing village around me. You know, and I know it would be harder for people that don't and I know of people who don't have family here and it's bloody hard. And I just I don't know how they do it. You know, single parents, I am absolutely in awe of anybody who raises a child alone. I can't even fathom how hard that would be. You know, so I'm very privileged to be able to make it work. And I feel I feel very lucky for that. So there's some really exciting stuff coming up with falls. Hopefully we'll be doing a little mini east coast to the start of October may or may not happen. But then also we've got a gig in Maine in in mid October and another one in Brunswick, I think in November. So that will be very fun. Jazz lab orchestra is about to do recording for a new album, and they play at the jazz lab every month as well. COVID permitting. We've lost our first yard originally our last few unfortunately. But yeah, that's the main things coming up. They get on board. Madison, I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. It has been so much fun. You've given me lots of laughs today. All the best with your full ski and well done again for opening people's eyes to the challenges of pumping and returning to gigs. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been an absolute pleasure to be on the show. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Andrea Rees Australian mixed media visual artist + creativity coach S2 Ep47 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts My guest today is Andrea Rees, a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East Corrimal, NSW, and a mum of 2 boys. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20 to study mixed media, her main mediums being photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating Andrea spent 4 years in advertising in account management. After realising it was not filling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher. After her 2nd son was born, ongoing health concerns meant that the ongoing level of support that he needed guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art, and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for mums who are searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through, who lost themselves in their motherhood, and can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chat about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her first child and the joy Andrea takes from supporting other mums. And the ever popular topic, the value we as society place on art, and the people who make it. **This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD and a childhood chromosome disorder** Andrea links / Instagram / Creative Village Facebook page Podcast website / Instagram MakeShift Creative See the painting my son Digby helped me complete When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you here. My guest today is Andrea Reyes. Andrea is a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East caramel in New South Wales, and she's a mom of two boys. Originally from Vancouver in Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20. To study mixed media, her main mediums been photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating, Andrew spent four years in advertising in account management, after realizing it was not feeling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher after his second son was born. Health Concerns meant the ongoing level of support he needed, guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for moms who are seeking and searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through those who have lost themselves in motherhood, they can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chatted about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her fifth child. And the joy Andrea takes from supporting other moms and the ever popular topic, the value where society plays on it, and the people who make it. This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD, and childhood chromosome disorder. Welcome to the podcast today, Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're in Sydney. Yes. So your accents, not from Sydney. We're events. So originally, I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And I've got an Australian father and a Canadian mom raised me in Vancouver. And then when I was 20, I took off and finished my degree of Visual Arts at Sydney Uni and just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that's it. Awesome. So you mentioned visual arts tell us what you do what you create. So I'm a mixed media artist. And I'm also a coach for moms who want to find their creativity. So my main medium is photography and painting. Drawing. And my major at uni was ceramics. So I really love ceramics, but it's just a bit of a harder medium to work with when you don't have the equipment. And it's kind of like a three stage process. So yeah, it's a lot more a lot more. More complex. That's why I think I've fallen really into photography and stuff because it's much more accessible and workable in motherhood. Yeah, for sure. So let's go back to the beginning. How did you first get into all these different types of creative? Oh, I guess I'm just through high school and my parents put me in ceramics from the age of 10. Just in our neighborhood. There's a lady who was doing it out of her garage, a mum and yet I did some workshops like a raccoon horse and stuff like that when I was young, just loved clay and then went through to college and like, just before and to uni and and yeah, you you do your foundational year where you kind of have a try of everything and yeah, I just really loved photography and in high school I just I loved the darkroom so much. And yeah, I was really fortunate that we had one in our school and yeah, I think it just sort of just developed it definitely was just a creative kid. And like, I remember days when it would be raining and mum would pull out like a paint by number set for me. And I just work on it at the dining table. And I just loved that sort of thing. So yes, over the years it kind of built and built and yeah, then yeah, did my degree and yeah, I just really, yeah, I loved ceramics at Sydney, uni. And, yeah, it was just, it was just really unfortunate. When I came out of there. I just had this concept in my head because I did clay that why can't do it now. Because I don't have the money. I don't have the materials. I don't have the equipment. So what am I going to do? So I kind of Yeah, stepped away for it for many years, which was now I look back and I think that's so sad. I lost so many years not being able to create. Yeah, but I think with everything you you create, like, everyone's creative, and I think you you express your creativity somehow, some way, you know, and I probably that's when I probably fell more into photography, because it was accessible. And I could use it all the time. Hmm, yeah. Did you sort of decide you were going to make a life with art, I suppose that it was going to be what you did? Mmm hmm. Yeah, I just kept coming back to it. And so after uni, I because I had this idea in my head that I couldn't continue with ceramics. I was like, you know, I'm an adult. I'm in the big world, like, how am I going to make money and but I still obviously, I'm interested in the arts. So I went into advertising, and I sort of fell into account management. And it just was not filling my creative cup enough. It was very administrative. And I liked working with the designers and stuff. But even a lot of them were really like, not super, you know, they they just said it was kind of making art for other people. It was what they wanted. Even the end decision was like the clients choice, obviously, some so they could be really creative with it, but it usually didn't fly. So yeah. So yeah, so I left advertising after four years. And then I decided to sort of my husband and I were going to settle down. So we moved down this way from Sydney. And then I studied at Wollongong, uni and did my Graduate Diploma of education. So became a high school art teacher. So yeah, that was kind of always my dream. And like growing up, I always thought I would be a great teacher. And yeah, it was I was kind of making that happen now. So I was at a good time in my life where you were going to start a family and stuff, and I thought this will be a good job for me. Yeah, but yeah, it's just funny, like just reflecting back and thinking about it, that there's just such a, you know, an idea in society that arts just not like the pathway to go for stability. And, you know, which is just so sad, because now being on the other side of that, I think it's totally up to you, like you're fully in control of making that happen. So yeah, it's just I think you just feel really unsupported along that journey. In Yeah, in society. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that a lot of conversations I've had lately with mums have been around the value, and I mean, monetary value that we place on the arts. And a lot of it sort of has become really evident, I think with the shutdowns through the COVID time, like, all the footy clubs going and all the footy players were traveling across the borders, but there were all these restrictions, so no one could put on their shows like, you know, visual artists, performance, anything like that all shut down. It's like, well hang on a minute, like, every time you turn the radio on or the TV or, you know, you're watching a streaming service, everything's been made by a Creator by an artist and it's, I think it I hope people sort of woke up to that. People on the other side of the You know, yeah, the value of the arts in society is actually so huge. And it really makes our, it allows us to connect. It really makes our world like so much more interesting than if. Yeah, like, we went through a period of like two years where we just locked it down and how sad and people really, you know, struggled and suffered in that time. Like, just even just live music. Like, I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed going to live music and I'm not like a huge live music. You know, follower. I don't kind of, you know. Yeah. But, um, but I definitely, yeah, I enjoy it. And when bands come to town and stuff for gigs, yeah, play locally. Like, I love live music. So yeah, yeah. It's been an interesting time. Do you have an eye opener? So you've got some children? Can you share a little bit about them? Yes. So I've got two boys. So yeah, I think this is when my, like, I came around to my art and creativity was actually from motherhood. So my first boy is five years old now. So he's just starting kindergarten this year. So I feel like it's developing more and more as they grow up. But yeah, he's off to school. And my youngest is three now. So he's at daycare this year, three days a week. So he was two days last year. So yeah, it's exciting, because I'm just getting a little bit more time where I can do awesome stuff like this, and coaching and work on creating and art shows and stuff like that. So yeah, it's exciting. What's developing? Hmm. So going back to when maybe when it wasn't, so I wouldn't say exciting. I have so much time. How did you go? Sort of continuing to be able to create when you Oh, first child? Yeah. So um, I guess. So with my first child, I had a, I had a great pregnancy, like, I thought I was gonna be a really, I wasn't gonna thrive as a pregnant woman. But I actually just have absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed being pregnant my first time. But then I ended up having a traumatic birth and I had a really bad birth. So that was just, I think, such a shock to my husband and I, what we went through, and just such a poor start to parenthood. And then he had a lot of complications like reflux and food intolerances and that sort of thing. So we struggled, like in that first year, a lot just trying to survive. And then I really lost myself, I just thought the way to go with motherhood is like you devote your you know, just, you know, devote yourself to your kid, and, you know, give them everything you've got. And yeah, really depleted myself and lost my identity. And then it actually was a friend, another art teacher, an artist and a teacher, who I studied with, and we've worked together and stuff since that, she kind of approached me and was like, there's this art show coming up. I really think like, You should do it with me. And I was just like, oh, no, I can't do that. Like, oh, I think it was like, in three months time or something. And she was like, Yeah, you, you know, you could easily, you know, work on this on the weekends or something. And she just talked to me realistically, like, kind of make making these excuses that she doesn't have children. And I kind of thought, Oh, you don't know, because you don't have kids yet or what it's like, but what she was saying was making a lot of sense. Like I was just making these excuses. That completely didn't make any sense. And so I said, Yeah, you're right, actually, I could, I could go and photograph that. And then I could, you know, I could get it printed, and then I could start to put it on to it was plywood that we were working on. And I could probably lay that down and she offered to come and help me and everything. She was so supportive, great friend. And I thought Yeah, I can do this. Like I can totally do this. And then I ended up Yeah, I just I was so blown away by the result I got that I was so excited by it. And I felt amazing. Like through the process, I was like, This is me this is like, I've found myself again. And like, I was just, yeah, so happy that I was still mothering and but yet I was creating and being myself and I had this like, wonderful balance. And so after that, I entered another show, and I ended up making us at all, I'll just do one artwork again. And then I ended up producing for it was so that was great. I really loved it. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the way I've just continued. And she's been there along beside me saying, you know, what do you think about this? Like, should we enter this again? And yeah, she's been such a wonderful friend they fell pregnant again, we kind of got to a stage where we felt like things were manageable and easier. And, and yeah, we our son was kind of at the age where we wanted to add our second child, we wanted to have two kids. So we had our second child, that pregnancy was okay. Not as easy as the first but it was okay. birth was completely controlled planned, Cesar, because we were just so terrified of something happening again. But then, probably three months after he was born, we started realizing that he had a lot of complications, health concerns and stuff. And he wasn't thriving, and was so confusing, and really, really difficult time. And basically, it went on and on every month, there was something new going on. Something new popped up. That wasn't good. And you Yeah, I kind of had seen so many specialists and doctors and talked to so many people and everyone kept telling me to, you know, stop worrying and that you're you know, he'll he'll catch up because he was delayed and stuff. And all these red flags that were going off there was saying Don't worry about it, you know, it's nothing, nothing severe or anything. And anyway, by a year and a half, and neurologists said to me, you've kind of exhausted every avenue and do you want to do genetic testing? And I said, Yes, I want to do genetic testing, if that, you know, confirms anything. And so sure enough, it came back that he's got a chromosome disorder. So yeah, that was kind of like a huge relief, a bit, you know, difficult as well. But we finally had an answer to what was going on. And yeah, so he's got he's got some difficulties physically and mentally and like growth wise and stuff like that. So yeah, it just kind of then I kind of had all my answers. And I knew what I was dealing with what I was working with and going, Okay, this is going to change now because I don't think like I had returned to teaching. After having my first and in between there. I was also starting to teach art workshops and stuff with a company locally here called makeshift creative. So they, yeah, connect, like creative people in the community with the community. And so I was teaching art workshops, and I was entering art exhibitions and getting back into my art while raising my first son. And then I returned to work had my second son, and then I just could not get back to work. And I was like, Everyone kept saying, you know, when are you going to return and I wasn't, like coping very well. So people were kind of pushing that because they thought that might be good for me, I think, because I'm definitely someone who, yeah, I was happy to go back to work at like eight months with my first. Um, so then yeah, I just couldn't get back there. So then I decided, You know what I've got to, like, rethink this because I think going back to a high school setting and trying to teach art as well as like, my son is he goes to, you know, our sorry, speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and music therapy. We take him swimming, so he's in a lot of things and it's kind of like a part time job in itself just working with him and stuff. So yeah, supporting him, so I just couldn't kind of return to that. So that's when I was like, I'm gonna start a business And art is definitely what I want to work in, like, definitely my passion. So yeah. And it's taken me that in itself has been like a year long journey of just discovering what exactly is it that I want to do? So I've kind of come all the way around and said, I want to help like moms who went through what I went through who kind of lost themselves in their motherhood. And I definitely feel like there needs to be more support for moms. And yeah, I'm just, I coach them and help them get back to their creativity find their creativity, or even moms who've never been kind of creative, and they see the benefit in it, because it's so important. So yeah, that's awesome. That is so great. Yeah. I love that. So long winded but no, no, no, no, that's so good night. I think that's just so wonderful. Because you're right there isn't there? Isn't anyone out there? I mean, you are now but there's no, I mean, like your friend said to you, like, there's no, like, it's not a formal thing that people go, right. Okay. So this is what happened. But now you can do this, and have you thought about this, or, or try this, or, you know, you're essentially taking on that role of the person that can. And because you've got that, you know, perspective yourself, you know, how hard it is, you can sort of see all the, the barriers, I suppose, and then just break them down and go. Yeah. A lot of my coaching is actually, like, it's, it's, it works on your thoughts. It's not, it's not strategy, like you should be doing this. Like, I'm not going to tell you, hey, what worked for me was entering art exhibitions, that got me back to my creativity. It's actually like, all mindsets. And it's like even looking back at my uni days, and when I left, like, I literally put my art down and walked away from it for probably, like, 15 years, like, like, serious artmaking for so long of my life, which is now I just feel so sad that that happened. And it was just a mindset thing that I was like, I can't I can't do this anymore, because I'm not at uni, and I don't have a job to like, support it, or I can't be successful with this and make money from it. Which actually, there's there's definitely, you know, that's just the thought that I had that stopped me from creating. Hmm. Which is the thing if you had had someone like, yeah, so yeah, actually, have you? Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like coaching is so important. And I meet with coach, so after this time, meet with my coach on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I have an hour session with her and she helps me with my business and, and supporting those moms. So yeah, I think it's such important work. It's, it's really, and it's all that kind of self care work. Like you're investing back into yourself. And like I yeah, basically, I create my art from, you know, the work I do with coaching and with, like, the work that my friend did for me, you know, that all came from that kind of work. So, yeah, that's so important. I think that's so great. Honestly, it feels like in a way, like you received that help, and you're sort of paying it forward. Yeah. You're, you're giving other moms the tools that you were able to gain? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just basically taking, like what I've learned from my own experience, and then, yeah, helping other moms with it, who might be dealing with the same sort of thing can relate and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's really not, there's not too much of it out there. You know, like, it's kind of Nishi like, it's a little bit. Yes, specific, but I think it's really important. And I think, yeah, there's lots of mums. So and there's a whole range, like, there's moms who, you know, were quite successful before and have lost themselves completely, or there's, you know, moms who've never done it before. And they're like, Wow, I really like I love the benefits that she's getting from this. Like, I might have a go at art or some that are like, I used to love it in high school. I've had lots come to art workshops and say, you know, I've, I loved it in high school, and I've just never gotten back to it again. And I'd like to now in my motherhood like I would like to have a go again. Yeah. Is it really it's so important to have something for yourself, isn't it? Yeah. Away from your role as a mother? Yeah, that's been a huge like realization. I've got a five and a half year old it saved me five years kind of come around to the fact that actually, it's so important that my husband have his he's a surfer. And now he's just gotten really after at the end of COVID. He's gotten we live between the ocean and the escarpment. And so he's gotten really into downhill mountain biking. Right now he's kind of got the two to use, you know, if one's not good, or something like that. Appropriate. So, um, yeah, like, I think before I was very much like your father, now you need to be a dad and be here, you know, 24/7 and devote everything to your children. And actually, that just burns you out. And then you're completely useless. And that's not healthy for your kids, either. To see parents like that, you know, just and upset and create, like, you will burn out and then it will come out in other ways, you know, so absolutely. It's just not healthy for a family unit to just be kind of, it'd be like, in a relationship, like just living and working and everything together and never having a break. Like you need that break to miss, you know, the other person and then come back and be, you know, completely full and giving. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And that's the thing too, like, if you've had a lot of moms I've spoken to, they've been artistic their whole lives. Yeah. And even when they got married, one of my, one of my previous guests, Sammy Lange said to her husband, just before they got married, you know, this is what I do. I'm not gonna all of a sudden start cleaning the house. And the same thing happens when you become a mom. It's not like all of a sudden, you go, Well, I'm gonna forget all that thing. That thing that I loved my whole life. I'm just that part of me is gone. Now. Now I have to be on, you know, certainly for a portion of time, that might be the case. Because you know, early, early babies are like, the babies. Yeah, the first, you know, few months is incredibly demanding. So yeah, challenging to find even the time to sleep, let alone do something for yourself. But as time moves on, it's like that part of you is still there. It's just a matter of sort of getting back to it, I guess. Yeah. I think like, she was so I think, wow, because she was so emotionally mature at that age, like at that time to be able to recognize that because I didn't, I was like, well, here I go. Like, I'm into the next stage of my, my life. And like, I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like, you can't Well, for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing a whole I was I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me, not like I wasn't in control of it, kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything. And but yeah, like, wow, for her that she's just been able to do that right from the get go. And she made that a priority. It's taken me like, a long time to realize that and make it a priority for myself. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it happens, isn't it? And I guess, it depends how you've grown up what your, you know, your role modeling was like, from your parents about, you know, what was what value was placed on what I suppose? Yeah, we're also different, aren't we? Yeah. But I think it's so important to spend that time becoming conscious and aware of that, and like, figuring that out, and realizing how that impacts you. And yeah, recognizing your, your own individual, you know, upbringing and, and the person you become and then you're in full control of changing that and, you know, controlling your future moving forward. So take that and then consciously choose like what you want to do. Yeah, your future. Yeah. So you raise your kids right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, isn't it? Because they're watching like, you know, they're observing what's going on around them and yeah, even at such a young age, and like you said before, we you know, if you burnt out you know, you start to get impatient and you you know, your relationships suffer like the kids they see and feel all of it so, oh yeah, it's so important, isn't it? Yeah. So identities a big thing, be yourself and feed them Moms who code What about mum guilt? Is that something that sort of comes into it as well, that idea that moms shouldn't be doing something for themselves? They should be mums. Or? Well, I yeah, I thought about this. And I think we all suffer from Mum guilt, like, must be in US innately. But I would say I probably I probably suffer less than average, like, I definitely I am constantly. Yeah, looking for ways to you know, get a break, or that sort of thing. See my husband, he works interstate, every week, he travels around Australia. And so there's like three nights a week where I'm on my own. Luckily, I've got my parents, they've moved here from Canada, eight years ago, and they live like five minutes up the road from me. I don't know how I would do this. Yeah, without having my parents nearby. They've been such great support. And through all, like, the medical journey we've been on with our youngest and stuff, so. Yeah, so I'm always looking for things that I can, you know, a weekend away or like, a night away, or like a workshop to attend or? Yeah, where can I get go for like, a float or like, a massage or just for Yeah, bushwalk I can go and do or friends where I can catch up with like, ways that I can fill my cup. So I'm, yeah, I feel like I don't have enough of that stuff. I need to always that's a constant work is trying to make sure I'm taking a break. And when I get it, I like I'm out. I don't find home and check in or night or anything like that. Like I'm like, switched off. I'm enjoying it for as much as possible. Because yeah, I just know that when I'm back, you know? Um, yeah, it's just all about mom like 100% Yeah, so I don't tend to get to about a mum guilt. I guess you kind of like, you kind of have moments where you look at it. Well, for me, I look at it like big picture. And you know, the time flies with kids growing up and you think, yeah, I guess you kind of reflect and say, you know, did I do enough of that? Or did I do enough of this? Or, like, you know that I missed out on that or something like that. So I think that mom guilt kind of creeps in and yeah, but I think I don't know I'm I try to be pretty compassionate with myself and say, like, you're doing a bloody good job. And you know, like, cut yourself on Slack. You've got a lot on your plate. So um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I feel for the moms like that's, that's why I'm doing the work. I'm doing feel for the moms too. But that's my art art workshops are a big part of that and getting the moms out of their house. My art workshops are minimum three hours, because I might you need three hours, don't need an hour and a half. Like, you know, you need three hours to walk out a home to connect with other moms, other women to really get into the art and relax and be you know, in the moment, being mindful and like, yeah, just filling your cup for a good three hours and then returning home, you know, and that's healthy for the carer who's on the other end to have that time with the kids too. And for the kids to have that time with the the other partner or carer you know, to? Yeah, to be to be taken care of by someone other than mum or, huh. I think that's something we forget to it's like they have relationships with other people. Yeah, they need to have the time to build on them as well. Like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'm saying that to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they make time with other faithful. Yeah, my boys are really good with everybody else. They go to other people. They Yeah, they happily have, you know, they'll go for a sleepover or something with their cousins or, like, yeah, they're really good like that. And I think that's probably just how we've been raising them. Yeah, maybe. You're listening to the odd thing I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, that wasn't on the list. So I'll give you some time to think about it. If I just just as we've been talking, I just wondered what in your experience with your coaching what is like the biggest issue or the biggest? Yeah, I guess It's an issue that stops me from creating or holds them back from creating. Um, I would say, I think, initially, everyone thinks that it's time. Or it's energy. That they don't have enough time as a mom more time poor. Or we're tired, you know, we're exhausted. Surely I can't take on something else like, but that's not what arts about, like my creativity, I should say. Because when I say creativity, I'm talking like the mums I help can be anyone from you know, just like the moms you interview from singers and musicians, to writers to artists. So yeah, I think we think that we're kind of time poor, and we don't have time to take this on. But yeah, it's actually adding to you it's not like something that is meant to be more work, it's meant to be enjoyable and a break, and then it feels your carbon gives back to you to your mothering. So, um, yeah, I would say that's probably a big one. But that's what I kind of worked through them with their thoughts is that, you know, we use time kind of as like an excuse. But is it really time? Or is it actually something deeper than that? So we kind of work on that deeper level of what's really what what are you really thinking in your head? What's really, what's the fear there that's kind of holding you back from from doing this, you know, whether it's creating your art or it's sharing your art, you know? Yeah. Are you doing things like procrastinating? Or are you being a perfectionist about it like, so it's more that sort of? Yeah, thought work, then. Yeah, any of those kind of surface level excuses? Yeah. Do you find people feel? And I'm just saying this from the feedback I've had, when I've chatted to other mums? Does the some of them feel like what they're doing will be judged as being a bit of fluffing around and not that important? So it's like, what are you doing that for? sort of thing? Is that just coming into it a bit? I yeah, that definitely comes into it, I think. Yeah, that's just, yeah, you're always going to have I think people around you who have their own thoughts about art, and that's, you know, might come from society's value of art. But yeah, everyone's got their own thoughts and values. And so you just have to kind of think that's fine, that's your thoughts, but that they're not mine. And I'm not going to take that on, I'm not going to kind of let that affect me. But it is hard, because that can be someone like your partner, or it can be like a parent or something like that. So somebody who you really want for support, or you really think or your support team can actually be kind of not the people you should go to, to get to seek support from for this sort of thing. So yeah, I think again, just being conscious and knowing, like, yeah, being aware of what's kind of around you and being selective as to what you take on and what are your own values? And what are your own thoughts? And yeah, and running with those and not sort of letting? Letting? Yeah, other thoughts kind of influence? Yeah, yeah. And I guess then being sort of, like you said, the people that perhaps you shouldn't go to for this sort of stuff, like seeking out those people that are your tribe, I suppose. Yeah, he's not ready. But you know, what I made the paper that are on the same page that will support you and give you the confidence that you might be needing Exactly. So my girlfriend is definitely like someone I would go to, who supported me when I was with my first child, I would go to her for, you know, a bit of a boost or some feedback. But I have made a Facebook group for this because I've found that this is something that's kind of missing is like that community support of other like minded women. So we can, you know, in there, we can encourage each other or ask for feedback or, you know, just talk about different topics or struggles that we're kind of going through or even sharing just our motherhood challenges that are happening. So it's really niche. Nishi kind of like, what we're dealing with, is really specific that other people can't kind of relate to so there's, there's certain aspects that people do and that's great. Um, I'm glad that kind of helps. But yeah, it is it is quite specific. What we need need that community that network for so yeah, I've got a Facebook page called Creative village. So it's like, you know, your village, but creatively it takes a really? Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody that's, that's keen. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are. And I'll certainly be checking it out. But yeah, when you're talking before about this, like, you know, it might be your partner or your, your parents or maybe parents in law that no, don't see the value I just want to reflect on there was an experience with a mum that I interviewed, I think last season, who's the parents in law were babysitting the dog? There was like, the hammer square, but they would, because she's the daughter in law, right? So she's not like number one. So the daughter was getting the child babysat by these grandparents, because she was going to work. Yeah, but then the grandparents didn't want to babysit the other child, because the mom was just making her art. Yeah, it was like, they didn't value in that at all. And that's like, ah, it just makes you just so cross, you know, that. I know, everybody's different. And I shouldn't judge people, but it's hard not to see, like, how devalued that that mum would feel. Yeah, you know, by that one person saying, Oh, well know what you're doing isn't worthy enough. It's not real work. Yeah. And that's just like demoralizing. So having people around you that can go? That That's a load of crap. support you? Yeah. So important. Really, that's really tough. Because it would that would have an impact on you. And you would probably question, you know, what is this a waste of time or something like that? You're like, you, you get all these thoughts coming to you about like, that are coming from that. And you know, so? Um, yeah, I think just being really strong on what you value and what's important to you what you need is so is so important. And then yeah, finding the right people around you that can kind of support you. Like, when I the last art exhibition, I entered, it was a still life show. I'm still like prize, I ended up painting. Like, I just paint around the house. So I just painted on my back. Entertaining table, like my dining table, outdoor dining table was beautiful as like, sunny, we yeah, we were really lucky with the weather. And the kids just want to get involved. And I've talked to other artists, moms who they've got like a studio in their home and that sort of thing. And they say the kids come in and out like all the time and that's so beautiful to for, for, you know, the kids to grow up in the studio and to be around that creativity and value that growing up like, Yeah, I think there is a bit of a balance there between, like having your own space to focus and stuff. Certain work requires that like this, for example, with the kids in the background, but like, yeah, if you can involve them and have them working beside you like some there's an artist that I follow. Um, I can't remember her name now. Um, she gets her she's quite famous in Australia, and she gets her daughter to work on her paintings, like, and they're in galleries and everything. And they're beautiful. And it's so no, I think more of that needs to kind of happen with Yeah, with with artists, moms that just it just adds that layer into like artists mom's work that for sure. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's so cool. I would love to do that. At one point. If I can get my boys involved in my work. That would be amazing. I'm just trying to see if I've got it. I can't see where it is now. But I did. I'm not I like to paint just to fluff around because yeah, my main thing is singing and writing music and stuff. But I love I love fluffing around with brushes and stuff. It's just I just feel really nice when I'm flowing. So I did this, this like it's all abstract, mostly fuel Watercolor, I'm getting better at making flowers. But it's Yeah, practice my gosh, it's practice in that. Yeah, yeah, I have the patience for it. But I did this big abstract bits and bobs. And then I gave it to my six year old and said, and gave him my pastels and said, he goes, you finish this off, and I look at it. And it's like, I would never thought to do what he's done. Like, it's so kids look at their creativity. And it wasn't like he'd even I think I can't remember how he described it. But like it was his idea of whatever this thing was, he tried to represent it. So he's gone. I'm going to draw this thing. And he just tried to draw that to me. It just looks like amazing marks on the page. It just looks so cool. I'm like Digby, that looks that looks like a proper art now thank you for your I didn't touch I couldn't have done that. Because I'm a lot of my create my art stuff is like, I've got to get it to look the way I want it to. And because I can't do that because I don't have the skills. I just end up getting frustrated when I'm digressing. I wanted to talk a bit more about your own art that you create in your photography and such. Yeah, what sort of things influence your work? Well, I'd say, like, when I first started, I was, I would say I was more influenced by making art that people would buy. I think that's a big thing. Artists kind of deal with is like, making Yes, stuff to sell or just expressing themselves and working. And I would say like if I was in, if I had more, yeah. If I had more time, it's just kind of funny. But I'm like, because I do the coaching and I do my art making my art making is really like a I wouldn't even say part time like It's like quarter time because I've got you know, parenting and then my coaching. And so anyway, if I was like a full time artist, and I wanted to do that full time, like I would think that I would be in a studio for a long time. And I would be you know, just spitting out artwork that I wanted to express and how I was feeling and that sort of thing. But when I'm making for exhibitions, there's usually like a theme I'm working with, or Yeah, like, or in the beginning, I was thinking a lot about what would people want on their walls. So I was making things more about and I used to be really into because I grew up in Canada. And then I moved to Australia, I was really interested in landscapes and that kind of like the juxtaposition of the two. And yeah, that I just really love both, even though they're so different. So I did a lot of landscape stuff. But now I'd say the most recent show, I did the still life prize, it was all about motherhood and I'm really interested in starting to yeah, really, I obviously value that so much. It's such an important part. To me. It's really like the most important thing in my life that's happened to me is what I've gone through and becoming a mum. So I really want to express that more and just yeah, it's just not in society. It's just not spoken about enough. And it's there's not enough awareness about what what happens. So I think using art as a medium to express that is awesome. So that's probably what I'll be doing more of the next pieces I do. Yeah, will be more about motherhood and hopefully I can get to a place where I start to, you know, work through I get to express like my experience of my motherhood, like the trauma from my first birth and complications that I've gone through with my second son so yeah, we'll see how it goes. You know, like right now? Yeah, a lot of us feel really helpless. And you know how, as a mom at home with my kids, can I help like what's going on in the world, but really, that work is so important. Like, we wouldn't have, you know, a Putin out there right now if, you know, there was a different upbringing, or that's an incredible way of looking at it. So important, our work was really valuable, really important and, you know, doing that work of whatever you whatever way you parent, your parenting style, but mine's probably more like gentle parenting. So, yeah, all that work you put in as a mom with your kids is you're bringing the future, you know, generation of people into this world. And that's really, really important. evety Like maybe if Putin did a bit of art like right, maybe I bet he was stifled every now. He wasn't even allowed to get out. Or anything. She was like that you're not doing it? So this is Charlotte Conde who was one of my guests in season two. And she said as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yes. It's like, what we're actually doing is CRISPR is still messy. You have to know you have to contribute to society. It's like what we Yeah. Seriously, motherhood? Just just, yeah, there's just this. Yeah, this there's no clear idea about what it is or what it what it does or anything. And yeah, I think this is such a different perspective. Like before you become a mom on what it's going to be like and what to expect. And you know, and you just think, like, that's why my husband and I were in such a shock when we had our, our first because no one told us that that was gonna be a possibility or like, yeah, that we were gonna have a tough year or anything like that, like we thought, you know, we're gonna have this beautiful baby and then bring them home and we're just gonna cut along and it's gonna be wonderful. Yeah, no screaming and like sleepless night. Yeah. So yeah, that's it sounds very similar to my story. It took me seven years to have my second because the first one was just like, What the hell yeah. And just Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like people, they try to give you an idea of what it's gonna be like, yeah, based on their experience, but you're not even in that headspace to even understand what they mean. Like when they say you're not going to get sleep. You go, Oh, that's nice. Like, whatever. You don't actually realize that. That's what they mean. Yeah, totally. I remember reading a book. And it said about this particular type different types of babies like ancient babies, or grumpy babies or whatever. And I'm like, my baby's gonna be perfect. I don't even need to read this. Like it was just denial complete. It's hilarious. Yeah. And there's just this like, you know, idea from society that moms just stay home and they live such good life, because they're just at home and like, they just are watching soap operas all day and have their feet up. And it's so easy, and the kids are easy. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea. No idea. No idea. You happy to talk a bit more about your first birth with the trauma involve? Yeah, I'm a pretty open book. Basically, like, I had a similar experience. I mean, I'm not saying similar because I don't know what you're about to say. But with my second birth, yeah, first birth was first one. I got induced because I had really high blood pressure. Yeah. He come out in an hour and a half. And it was horrific because they didn't have time to do pain relief. And that was the thing like when you have your first everyone says, Oh, it'll take 12 to 14 hours. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And even the doctor when he came in and administered the drug to and broke my waters. He said, I'll see. I'll see. And I'll see you in 12 to 14 hours. He was joking. And then when I was laying there, and I felt like I felt like I needed your poo. But basically, I felt like I needed to push. And I told them, I said, I need to push. And they said, they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, I feel like there's a bowling ball coming out of my bum. Like it just, that's the only way I could describe it. And they race to get this doctor. And he come up. And he was like, surely not like, again, like I was an idiot. And did a check on me. It was the first day it was surprising. It was horrible. Yeah. So he didn't check any could feel here. And it was like, You're literally about to these babies coming out of you. And it was horrible. It was horrible. And then with my second I said straight up, I need an epidural. Because if he comes, this one comes really quick. I need to be prepared because obviously last one was too late. And because he he was very tiny, he was only four pound 14 When he was born. Because he'd they, I don't know how, but between I had shared care between my midwife at the clinic and then the actual doctor. So between the two of them, they'd somehow missed that his growth had sort of plateaued at about 34 weeks. They hadn't picked that up. So it wasn't too Yeah, nine days before he was due. He the doctor did the scan you guys, your baby stopped growing. And I was like, I didn't know I had this feeling. I didn't have this beautiful big round bump. I had like a lopsided weird bump. And basically all the amniotic fluid had gone. And he'd stopped growing because my placenta had the blood supply was not working properly. So all of a sudden, it's like to get this baby out. Yeah, I didn't do it that day. Thank goodness. It was like two days later. Yeah. And we just had the worst experience like right from the start. We got to the hospital. We had this horrible midwife who told us we were late. And it was like, we got we got told to be there at a certain time. We were like five minutes late, because we couldn't get in through the door of the hospital. And then just thing after thing after thing went wrong. He came, they did the epidural and the epidural was too. He done it too high. So my lungs were starting to stop working like Oh, my breathing is compromised. Then he broke the waters there was nothing there. What did they do? It was just my husband. I think he's still traumatized by watching happen. So they're nice. They tend to to me sideways to let the to move the the epidural stuff, somehow they tilted me sideways because I could feel one leg but not the other. And it was just thing after thing after thing. And eventually, when it came time to push like not a not even push the contraction started. And his his heart rate was going down but it wasn't coming back up. So they were like, well, it's okay that it goes down. But it needs to come back up like a real set shows he's in in stress. They basically they said to me, we've got to get this baby out. And I was like, right and the like, we've got to go have a cesarean so I went to do that. And I'm thinking, Oh, this would be great. We'll get this over with but then when they were doing it, I could, I couldn't feel like I thought I'd be numb, like completely numb. And I wouldn't even know what they were doing down there. But I could feel stuff. So then I started to get all panicky because I couldn't. And I was it was horrible. My midwife when stood over by the wall, and just basically abandoned us. And thank God there was this beautiful theater nurse who came over and she was like stroking my head like it's okay, this is what's happening. This is what's happening next, whatever, she just took charge. And then eventually he come out and you know, he was he's fine. He just was very small. He just didn't have any fat on him. So his lungs were developed. Like everything was fine. Yeah. And then and then the OH MY GOD on the way back to the, to the room. She asked what we're going to name him. And his name is Digby. And she goes, Ah, I know a friend with a dog called Digby. And I was like oh my gosh, really doing this to me after everything's done to me. Now you're doing this. And then sorry, I'm really going on about it now. Obviously need to work through this today. We got back to the room and they decided he needed to be in this like the box thing because he couldn't keep his temperature up for himself. And then they said the specialist pediatric doctor come over and she asked me if I'd been drinking and smoking when I when I was pregnant and I was just like, I just burst into tears. I was like, I wouldn't do that. To my child, like, and she goes, I'm sorry, we have to ask because he's so small. And I said, Well, I overheard the theater people say my placenta was gray and grainy. And she goes, Oh, that explains it then, but then didn't tell me what that meant. Like, no one was telling me what was going on. And then the next thing was, I didn't move all night, because basically, I think I was in shock. And I couldn't move. My body was just in that same position. I came back from theater, and they sat me up for something. And they discovered that the epidural thing was still in my bag. And I was like, seriously, what else could you guys tell like going to end? It was just one thing after another, and I was like, I have to get out of here. And in the end, he the babies did. We stayed there for like two weeks, and I ended up going home and just coming to visit him, like through the day and then go home at night because I just couldn't bear to be there. It was like, well, you must have hated going back in there. Like you just would want to take him out of there. It was the as quick as possible that you can get him home and get out of that place was horrible. And I felt and then I felt really guilty for leaving him there every night saying goodbye and then rushing home trying to get as much sleep as I could pumping in the middle of the night because they messaged me when he was when they were feeding him. So then I was like, right, I better pump now. It was just like, it was hell. But anyway, you had a you had another child to take care of as well. He was he was good though. Because he was he was seven. So he basically had to learn how to make his school lunch. He had to learn how to do so many things like that, like was like Sorry, Alex, we can't do this. You have to do it. Like grow up so quickly pull little bugger. But yeah, so anyway, I've just I've just had an awful horrendous I have like, I had similar things kind of happened in there. But yeah, some of the stuff that happened to you just and that that was it like that, what my OB said to me, and my first birth was, it was really, you were really unlucky, like everything that kept happening to you. And I was like, yeah, it just kept happening to me. And, and he said, like, if it could have gone, you know, if you got to one thing like say an induction, like, it could have gone good or bad, it went bad. Then you went to the next thing could have gone good or bad. It went bad. Like everything just failed the whole way through. And I was just, he was like, you're just really unlucky. And I was like, was like, my husband's really like, would this have happened if we were in, you know, with a different team or in a different environment? Or whatever, you know? Yeah. And you just don't know, I think just this stuff happens, you know, in life. And I think the best thing you can do is try to work through it. Like the more you talk about it and just really figure it out. Because I did that after mine. I was like, I literally called it a puzzle. Like I was trying to piece together what the heck had just happened to me and figure out everything that went on because I actually was in so much pain, I lost my vision. So I have like, yeah, so I just, I think like for months afterwards, I just told people in front of my husband that like, I got to a certain point. And then I just close my eyes and I just bared through it. And I just could hear everything but I couldn't see. And he was like, he ended up telling me like two months later, he's like, your eyes were open, like the whole time. And I was like, oh my god, like I've lost like my vision, like recollection of it, or my body must have just shut that part down or something just to try and survive the pain I was in. But yeah, I think the best thing you can do is just like, you gotta debrief and like talk through it and and then just try and grow from it and figure out like, how did ya how did it kind of make you stronger? Or what did you learn from that? You know, like for me, like I everything I've gone through with my kids. Before I was really probably I didn't trust my instincts too much. I didn't know what to do. I relied heavily on other people around me for advice, you know. And now I feel like I am my son's like my little son's, like best advocate. I know more about him than any doctor. I pretty much tell them what he needs. I don't do anything they advise me to do unless like I feel like it's necessary like so I feel like I'm really confident on now. To who I used to be because yeah, like in the beginning, you know, you got this newborn and you're like, oh, like when do I feed it? What do I do like a rocket? Do I pad it? Like how do I you know, this like what do I what do I give him like? So yeah, now I feel I feel more like I can I can listen to my my instincts more and trust them. So but yeah, my worth was um My waters partially broke in the night on like a Sunday. And then we called the hospital they said to come in. And the nurse that was on she ended up checking if they had broken and because I just had like wet shorts in bed, but then that was it. No nothing else. And I was like 41, and one or something like I was oh, whatever way overdue and I had a big baby like he ended up being was he was like, close to four kilos. That's about eight pounds, eight ounces. And I'm like five foot four, like, I'm not a big person. Anyway, and um, and when she went to check, she ended up scraping or cutting me and I had I had bleeding and I had this like, beautiful pregnancy before this. And then this was like, the start of the horror that I like went through was she had done that. And my husband is not good with blood and hospitals. And he was just like, why? Like was that meant to happen? Like, what's going on? Like, this is like, he was really concerned already. Yeah. And then they basically said, like, you have to go home. Nothing's happening. We I can't how are you? And she was like, I can't tell because now I've like those, those blood and I can't, I can't. And I was like, well, thanks for that. You've just started this off on a great note. Like, everything was fine. I was healthy and everything. And then. And then so we ended up going home. And then like, I think I came in the next day to see my obstetrician or something. And he sent me over to the hospital to get monitored. And I ended up just standing in the waiting room and like no one can help me no one was seeing me I was in pain. I had really bad back labor and my birth. And and then yeah, they couldn't even give me a hot water bottle because they're all used in the rooms and stuff. And I was just really uncomfortable. And I said, I called the the OB and said I don't want to be here anymore. Like can I just go home? This is I'm not getting any treatment here anything. And so he said, Yeah, you can go. And then they ended up calling me and saying oh, your GBS positive. So we like legally in New South Wales, we have to induce you within 24 hours of your water breaking and like, we think they've partially broken and you need to get in here in the next hour. And we need to induce you. And I was like, so now you want me they're like, send me away, like, twice now. So then I went in and then and then they induced me but mine took a long time. And my OB said it was like night, I think it was nine o'clock when they induced me. So he said same thing. Like I'll see you in the morning for a birth. But I said do I do What do I do? Like do I do an epidural? Like I really don't know what to do. And again, I was very much like looking for other people's advice, like not listening to my body or anything like that, and just going by the professionals and trusting that they have done this a million times. And so anyway, he said, Well, I would take an epidural and get some sleep because you're you're going to need some rest. So I took the epidural and then I think yeah, anyway, in the morning, I started like having contractions and start started going into labor and I think that was at like 6am and Oh, and in the night my epidural had worn off or something like that. And so I said to them, like that was so so painful like because it takes them a while to come in and top it off or whatever so I said can you just um when it when it started in the morning I was like can you just make sure like it doesn't go low again like that because that was I was in so much pain there and I'm like in the middle of the night. So they talked it up, like really high or something and then I went into it I was pushing and then he was stuck. He was in the wrong position. He was like, sideways kind of and anyway and then I ended up being in like I would push and then when I rest I just endure like back labor I turn to my side and just be like it it got to the point I just felt like someone had broken my back like it was I was in so much pain. And I couldn't and I just kept saying to them I need a top off of this epidural like I can feel like I'm in so much pain. And they were really perplexed by it and thought you know, you shouldn't be in any pain with the epidural and anyway and Then he got right to the end, like they could see his hair and everything. And then they said, he should be further along by now, you know, you've been pushing for a while, and he hasn't been able to get any further out. And so they said, they said, like, we're gonna do an emergency Caesar. I said, Yeah, it's fine. Just like get him out. I'm just in so much pain right now. And then they went into the operating room, and the OB said, I just want to try a vacuum because he's right there. And I think I could if I twist them a little bit, I think I could pull them out. And anyway, the midwife the head midwife was arguing, saying, Don't do that. Like, that's not going to work. And so anyway, he did it and pop like this. It came off and he got this huge hematoma on his head. No, yeah, poor little guy. And then. And then they said, We're going to do a Cesar and then same thing they went to do like test if I was numb, and I was like, I can feel everything. Like I can feel all of that. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, I think your epidurals fallen out, like I think it failed. Oh, not explain why I was in so much pain. And then, um, and then they, they said, We're gonna have to give you a general we're gonna have to knock you out. So I said, Whatever, I don't care. Just knock me out. By this point. My husband was so traumatized and like, so concerned. And so they sent him out by himself, sat him in a room all by himself. And then they knocked me out and they pulled out my son, and he went limp in blue. And they had to resuscitate him and CPR and everything, because he had the trauma from the, from the vacuum. And then he had a bit of a general so he wasn't in a good way. So he was in the NICU for five, five days, I think, or maybe a week, we were in the hospital together. But luckily, I could stay on the ward because I was in the public. And I was a private patient. So I was paying. So yeah, they kept me they kept me on the ward and let me feed him and all that stuff in the hospital. But yeah, it was just awful was horrible. But that whole week in the hospital, I like just wanted to kind of, yeah, figure everything out and get out of there. And like, yeah, it's just not nice, ya know, Banner, kind of, and no one else, like around me had anything like that. So I was just like, Why me like, yeah, for a long time, I think we went through that, like, you know, the whole Why did this happen to us kind of thing. But then a year later, I think I kept going, I kept going. I kept going, like, when I went back to school, I kept coming on school break, and I was having like a real struggle. And I didn't know why I was kind of having these outbursts and lashes out to my husband when it was a time when I should be so relaxed and feel so good. And I was like, actually not coping in the in the break time when I was like, I want to do all this stuff, but I can't do anything. And I'm really struggling and and then I went and saw my GP and they ended up diagnosing me with PTSD, like a year later, when I finally could kind of deal with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's that PTSD. That's something they diagnosed me with too. And it's interesting that I don't think I realized at the time, how, but how bad had been for me like, I don't think I just thought I similar thing. I've been really unlucky stuff happens. No one else around me had the same thing. And it wasn't till I was, I think I was on Facebook or Instagram, Amanda and I were talking about birth trauma and like recognizing an actual, it's an actual thing. birth trauma is a thing and they were talking about there needs to be more said about it and more support. And I was like, I think that's me. I think they have been trained like it's just, there's no, there's no, I don't know, when you're in the hospital. It's basically once you've had that baby. All the support goes to the baby like everything's about a baby and it's like, hang on a sec. I've just literally had my guts ripped open. Yeah. With little very little preparation, and under really, you know, stressful circumstances. And then I'm expected to look after this child like it just seems there's no care for the mothers that have been there. Yeah, and yeah, it took me a long time to realize that I was one of those people and then done a lot of work with my therapy. His two sort of things. And yeah, it's well done. Yeah, that's so important. I think you've, you've got to go through it and everything or else. Yeah, you just kind of hold on to it. And then, you know, you don't you kind of fall apart later in life, so yeah, yeah. Oh, so healthy to keep all that in. And that's a really horrible thing to keep in, you know, that's huge. That's not just like, you know, something minor. That's happened that's really big. And I think, yeah, everyone just thinks going into having a baby is, you know, this natural thing that we are all made to be able to do and stuff and actually, you know, sometimes it's, it's major surgery in someone's life, like, yeah, that's not a normal thing. Yeah, cuz you don't sort of plan like, you know, you and I are having a C sections. It's like, you can't drive for a certain amount of time after Yeah, yeah. So you don't think that that's going to happen to you don't sort of plan beforehand, right? Who's going to take me around and whatever, because you just don't think that that's going to happen? That in itself is like really limiting? Because then you have to ask people are really vulnerable that I can't even go down the shops, I've got to ask someone to do it. For me, it took me a long time was learning how to ask for help. Because, you know, and I still work on that and stuff. But yeah, like that. That's a huge part of motherhood is you literally can't do it yourself. So you have to learn that skill of asking for help. And you've gone from being this independent adult who doesn't really require anybody else's help, you know, to suddenly you have to be really vulnerable. Put yourself out there and ask for it. Yeah, to like to be able to do what you do. Yeah, it that's a big one, I think for a lot of bumps. was for me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Oh, gosh. Oh, thanks for sharing for sharing that. Yeah, no problem. Your story. It's yeah. It's beneficial to talk about things. I think it's like, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just, the more we kind of communicate and like put stuff out there, the more people become aware, you know, and, and it's not or, and people can relate and be like, Oh, I'm not like the odd one out, huh. Like what happened to you actually, is very similar to you know, a lot of it has similarities to what happened to me and I went into my birth being like, like, I pretty sure my husband and I toured the hospital and we went through the NICU. And we were like, I looked at him and I was like, we won't be in here. We were in there for a week. Like, we weren't definitely in there. So but yeah, and when we were in there, like we our son was nicknamed the basketball player because he was so huge. He was long and big. And there was all these preemie babies. And that's what you think when you think of the NICU is like, preemie babies and stuff in there, you know, but it can be all sorts of reasons why you end up in there. So yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you need to shake myself down. That's it exactly. Yeah, all sorts of things. So like, I've just recently done a yeah, I've done so much like different stuff and kind of trying to work on myself and self care to take care take care of ourselves. And yeah, I recently did like a retreat, a women's retreat down the south coast here. And yeah, we did all sorts of stuff like that, like after you kind of tell your story or whatever you do, like an experience, like a cacao ceremony, or like shamanic breathwork and stuff. And then afterwards, it's kind of like, okay, like, we've gone through all that, shake it all out of your out of your body. And it's like, all that stuff is like really important. It really helps. So just lighten the load, like every time you kind of talk about it, and that sort of thing. It just gets a little bit lighter. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Like I mean, I used to be, you know, talking about all this stuff and be in tears talking about it, like I could barely even talk about it, right? It's so painful and you feel such a victim, whereas now I'm like, this is something that's happened, but I've worked through it, I've moved through it, and this is where I'm at now and like I would never be where I am if I hadn't gone through all that, like, you know, trying to see it as like, somewhat of a blessing that it's like improved your life, you know, instead of Yeah, this horrible thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it trying to see the positives and, and learn, I guess, what your lesson was, like what you had to what you had to learn through experience. And that's like, you know, it's like, COVID we've all gone through that. And, like, what, you know, there's probably some people who are still in, uh, in kind of like a victim state saying, you know, that was a horrible time in my life. And like, always, you know, that's really affected me or there's people who are like, I learned so much from that experience. Like, I now know what's really important to me, like, I know what I want to do actually changed my whole career. Like I did this. I did that, like, going through it, you know, and, and it's not just COVID that happened, like people had lots of horrible things happen because of COVID in there, you know, but they've become more resilient from it. So I think that's really important. Really important to do. Yeah, that's, that's a tree. Have you got anything coming up that you want to share? You've talked about your, yeah, for boats. By the time this episode comes out, that would have happened. But I'm definitely going to share that whatever I got coming up soon. I'll be having like it for people who are local, I'll be having. I want to try and make the monthly, but I've just collaborated with a gin bar in town to hold my art workshops at called juniper. So I'm going to be Yeah, I'll have an art workshop there next month in April. I've got my online community. This is kind of like my goal for this year, that I'm doing my art workshops to help moms get out of out of the home and women in general. And then yeah, the online community to connect and have that support and then the coaching. So my coaching is it's like ongoing, anybody can can sign up, but it's for a six month period. So anything less than that, just, you know, that's not enough time to sort of make some change and see some real results. So yeah, I commit to one hour every week for six months. And art wise. I've got I've applied for an exhibition actually in New York with my recent paintings. So it's an artist's mother exhibition. But yeah, I really keep my eye out for those sorts of artists mother kind of opportunities flying around, there's, there's a couple coming up. So I might apply for a couple others. But there's also my son's chromosome disorder. There is an an art competition for like rare disease art. So I think I really want to make something for that this year. That's in the middle of the year. I think it's like August or something, or maybe, might actually July. Um, but yeah, I'm hoping that's going to be an opportunity for me to sort of delve into that side of expression and trying to represent visually like my experience of, you know, having a son with a rare disease and raising a child with disabilities. Yeah, and I don't know what I'm going to create, but we'll see how that goes. But I do really want to do that. Because yeah, it's something really personal to me, huh? Yeah, not good on Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. It's just been a lovely chat today. And thank you for sharing so honestly, yeah. Cool. Thank you for having me and chatting with me, with all your honesty as well. Wonderful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast already. In sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Kellie Nobes Australian professional stylist S2 Ep35 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Kellie Nobes, who is a professional stylist and mum of 2 from Mount Gambier , Australia. ​ Kellie knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. ​ Through her blog What Kel Wore , and support from her local community, Kellie began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. ​ Her big break came when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand Ashlee Lauren’ s New York Fashion Week Runway Show in 2017, dropping everything, including her job, to travel to New York for the event. ​ Since then Kellie has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow Medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. ​ Kellie's services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots, to the recent launch of her wedding & bridal styling & planning service. ​ We chat about self confidence, self care and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mum. ​ ***This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum*** ​ Connect with Kellie on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellienobes/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ ​ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kelly nopes. Kelly is a professional stylist and mum of two from Matt Gambia in South Australia. Kelly knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog what care wore and support from her local community. Kelly began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. her big break came in 2017 when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand, Ashley Lauren, and their New York Fashion Week runway show, dropping everything including her job to travel to New York for the event. Since then, Kelly has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kelly Services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots to the recent launch of her new wedding and bridal styling and planning service. Today, we chat about self confidence, self care, and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mom. This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum Well, welcome to the podcast today. Kelly, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. You call yourself a professional stylist? Can you share with us what that sort of means and what that entails? Yeah, sure. So originally, when I started my business five years ago, it was specifically fashion styling. So my correct title is fashion stylist and image consultant. But over the progress of the last I guess Yeah, five years I've sort of branched out into lots of different creative avenues and now doing weddings and bridal stuff as well as business styling and social media stuff for businesses so basically kind of Yeah, anything creative or anything visual so I decided to retweet the name and say professional stylist because I felt like that was a bit more of a sort of umbrella that all the categories fell into rather than just Yes specific fashion styling. So yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy ride but now five years later here we are. So going right back to the beginning, have you always been really interested in clothes and you know, fashion and dressing up and that kind of thing? Yeah, so I guess anyone that has been following my business for a while now probably knows the ins and outs that I was always into clothes and dress ups I had a big Dress Up Box loved Yeah, anything fashion based. And it just kind of progressed from a really a really young age. I shared a photo on Instagram not long ago of me that my mom said to me, she was like who would have thought and it was just yeah, the writing was written on the wall. I was there in my dress ups with the these fake nails on and the the neck lace on and yeah, and that was me, I think when I was like, oh gosh, very young, maybe like three or four. So it started from kind of progressed to be something that I didn't really envision but in saying that too, I was never always the best dressed kid or anything like that. It just kind of stemmed from I guess a passion for creative elements and design and all that sort of thing. And yeah, so but it definitely stemmed from a young age and was always something that I was very, very interested in. Yeah, was there any particular sort of trigger for that? Like, were you surrounded by, you know, with your mom or, you know, other women in your life into that kind of thing? Or was it just coming out of a balloon? Yes, and no, I mean, um, you know, like mom always presented herself quite well and that sort of thing. But I someone asked me that. Yeah. Before it was like when was the kind of key moment that stood out in time and I don't think that there's necessarily one but I do have a really early memory of mum bringing in. It was a black painted box with bright colored flowers on it and it had all her old earrings and dress ups. And pretty much from then on that was that was the main main part of my childhood. So I'd say that it stemmed from that blackbox there wasn't necessarily I guess a key person or individual that kind of standard. It was just Yeah, I don't know, I just sort of started from that. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And as I got older, I found that I was getting more enjoyment out of it and started taking I guess a bit more of a an interest in a curious curiosity in the business side of things, too. So yeah, I'd say that was probably the key standout memory that I have was definitely that Black Dress Up Box. That's I guess what what started started the journey. Oh, that's cool did you go on to do some formal study in the in that area? Yeah. So originally, when I was in primary school, I wanted to be a fashion designer towards the end of primary school and early high school. And then total honesty, I realized how hard that was going to be and decided that that was not the avenue that I wanted to take. But I originally really enjoyed the retail side of it. So enjoyed the business and retail, learned a lot about that gained a little bit of experience in that. And when I left high school, I knew that uni was never really for me. But I decided to go and study an Advanced Diploma in Fashion and Retail Management in Adelaide. So still moved away started that study. And when I was there doing that there was also a stylist course. And so that really took my fiancee. And at the time I was working at Marian in a retail store. And they were doing shoots and different bits and pieces and stylists were kind of coming and going and that for me it was really quite fascinating that people get a job going and helping people shopping and photo shoots and all that sort of thing. And it just sounded amazing to me. So I kind of first got the idea there. But around that time I was moving home back to Gambia we had a bit of a rough time, we had some health issues with my mom and we we lost a friend and it was just kind of a Yeah, turbulent sort of period. And so they didn't actually offer that offline. So I kind of just gave up there for a little while came home, still worked in the fashion business side of things. And then a couple years later, I found a online course for Yeah, fashion styling and Image Consulting. So I did it offline through an institute in Sydney. And yeah, progressed from there. Yeah, great. How would you describe your own personal style? Really, I always get. I'm always really interested by this question, because I feel like no matter who asks me, and when asks me it changes. But someone asked me, yeah, probably over 12 months ago now. And to me, there was three words that came to mind and it was feminine, edgy and changing. And for me, I guess changing was the standout because for me, it depends on my mood depends on my personal life, it depends on I guess what I'm doing, who I'm with at the time, especially since becoming a mum, my style has changed completely again. Some of it was obviously depending on what was accessible for breastfeeding depending on, you know, what I was going to be doing with the kids that day depended on what my style was like. So I'd say it sort of changes sometimes it's bold and eclectic. And then other times it's quite plain and quite basic. And then there's other times where you'll see me down the street and people will wonder how I got into this job or how I do this job. Because if you can see me some of the time, even at home when I've answered the Dometic Gosh, some people must just be like, Whoa, and I think that's yeah, a big part of my job is like, you know, giving women and understanding that you don't have to look your best all the time and it's not about that it's about learning how to when you want to and building some of that self esteem and confidence because I know for me when I when I look good I feel good and that's just how I feel some people are completely different. But I just Yeah, I guess coming into my business too and learning about my personal style and learning how to, I guess dress to that and as well as learn like the the art of actually styling and how different things create different looks. In the illusions of some things in the ratios and drawing the eye to where I want people to be looking and that sort of thing, so it's quite fascinating. There is quite a lot of education and knowledge that goes behind it. But um, yeah, I think it really depends day to day. My, my style, it changes all the time. So that one that's that's a good answer that makes that makes perfect sense. And I'm also wanted to ask, is there any sort of like, well known people like celebrities or public figures style that you really admire, that you think is really awesome. Yeah. So there's a couple of standout ones. I'm not sure how well that well known there'll be to some people but I know like anyone that knows me or follows me knows I'm obsessed with a lady named Sophie Bell who goes by the Instagram Peppa heart. And I just yeah, love her style. Love her vibe, I guess. Yeah, she's definitely someone that I source a lot of inspiration from. There's a couple of other stylists who I really enjoy their style. And that is Elise Greer in Melbourne and Lauren dimenna in Marion. So I think she's now Lauren Willis. She just got married recently. But it's quite fascinating because she was actually one of the stylists when I was working at General Kenton, Marian. And so I knew her from Marian and I remembered her face. I remembered what she was doing. And then years later, I went to Adelaide fashion festival with ash from a last day or Ashley Lauren, who's my sister in law that does obviously all those amazing headpieces and her brand is amazing. And yeah, we went to a live fashion festival and I saw Lauren, and I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go up and tell her that she was actually yeah, like a bit of the reasoning behind why I got into doing what I was doing. And I'm went up to her and yeah, introduce myself. And she remembered me and now we actually yeah, have quite a bit of contact. And yeah, so she's definitely someone that I sought inspiration from and I just think to like Carrie Bickmore I don't know there's something about her. She can just wear anything ever. And she just always looks amazing. So yeah, that'll be that'll that'll be my life and that's cool. Read your work. You mentioned Ashley, Lauren, you've done. You went to New York for her runway in 2017. That's pretty. That's a pretty big highlight. It's not massive. I don't I don't know how I'll probably ever top that. That was just a bucket list item from Yeah, just way back. And so at the time, when Ash got that opportunity, I'd obviously been involved a little bit in her business. And you know, we helped on photo shoots and bits and pieces. But at the time that she got the invite to New York, I was actually managing Smeagol. So a children's stationery store, like completely total opposite genres in every way. But at the time, I was looking to travel and that was you provide, getting the opportunities to do that. And so yeah, I was doing that. And I'd started my styling business on the side and was just kind of getting it up and running and seeing how I felt about it and learning all about it. And yeah, Ash rang me one night when I was working Thursday, late night shopping at Smeagol, which was I think I just got invited to New York Fashion Week. So I was like, well, let's just like definitely kind of knock out those details and find out if it's real, because it's like, Oh, my God. And then yeah, sure me back. She's like, I think it's legit. And so she was like, oh, like you have to come and she's like, well, you quit your job and come with me. I was like, Um, let me think about that. I rang my boss the next day, I was like, I'm sorry about this opportunity has, you know, popped up and even my boss was like, she's like, look, I don't I don't want to see you go. But absolutely, she's like, you would be stupid to turn that down. So I went on packing lunch boxes one night to a few months later going to New York Fashion Week and styling the models there. So I just always believe that yeah, life always has a path for us when we when we need it or Yeah, believe everything happens for a reason. And that was obviously a big a huge starting point in my business to considering I hadn't been up and running for very long. So that kind of Yeah, snowballed into something. Yeah. Even more amazing as well. So yeah, So, yeah. And I mean, I don't expect you to name drop, but you can if you are you with your style some of the WAGs for the AFL Brownlow, which is pretty. Yeah, yeah. I was actually looking at the photos you sent me today. And I also hadn't thought about it. Do you tell the hair and makeup? How you want? Like it's the whole package? Do you describe everything how you want it done? Like, yeah, you do. Like, it's the whole look sort of thing. Yeah. So it isn't the whole look. So I think that's one thing that people think this styling too is that I just pick the garments or the outfit, but I am involved in the whole process. And that's not just with the brand new clients that's with every client, especially if they're doing event styling and stuff like that, at the end of the day, obviously, it comes down to their preference, they're the one that has to wear it, not me, but I definitely put my kind of spin on it or vision and say, This is what I think that we should go with. And they kind of take it from there. And then it's also about, I guess why using with the hair and makeup artists to, to make sure that they're comfortable in showcasing what they want to showcase because it's about them showing their art to so the styling is my part, the designer is there, part three, they've got to be happy with what they're putting out there. Same with hair and makeup, they're not going to do something that they're not comfortable with doing or they don't like because it's their name on it too. So it really is a whole kind of team effort. There are a lot of people involved. But yeah, with the brand loads too. It's it's, again, there's so much that goes into it that people don't see behind the scenes. It's not just go there on the day, and it's an hour to get like this is like months worth of work in the lead up and you know, picking designs and contacting designers and yeah, working out looks and then like yeah, hair and makeup and accessories sort of thing. So for me to obviously don't live in a major city. So I'm doing all of this via email and phone. When I originally started Kelly beams who was my first ever Brownlow client, I actually flew to Brisbane. And she just had a baby. So originally, we were kind of looking for off the rack because fittings and appointments and all that were quite hard to manage. But then in the end, we ended up securing a designer and getting custom in the end, which turned out amazing. But yeah, it's it's just like a whirlwind. And I don't think I'll ever be able to describe that feeling of hearing my name on the red carpet or, like especially with them. Yeah. Julie Neil, on the second year, like Lucky Neil has obviously become quite well known in the year after he actually won, which is, you know, getting the weight in like riding COVID time. And I just had Yeah, a young, a young baby at home and was in the thick of that. And it's just yeah, I guess sometimes I just thought that's one of those moments where I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and I'm like, wow, that's just little me just would have been like yay. Like, that's, that's always something that I've wanted. So I'm really hoping to get back into a bit of that again this year. And now that I'm back sort of Yeah, working in being involved. I'm really hoping that I can secure some of those red carpet moments again, because they are Yeah, so so much fun and yeah, really amazing to be a part of. You're based in Munich, Gambia. So for those who don't know my Gambia is basically halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So we're only like, what do we got 30,000 people, not a huge, huge town. So how do you go there? Like you mentioned the, the phone calls in the Skype and stuff like Do you ever feel like it's a drawback being here? Or do you just think no, but this is where my life is. And you just make it work? It really, it really does go both ways. I mean, I won't lie there would definitely be way more opportunities for me in this city with what I do. And you know, I've kind of made my peace with the fact that that that is how it is. On the other hand, I don't think my business would have become anywhere near as successful if I had launched it in the city. I think watching it here. There wasn't a whole heap of competition at the time when I started. There, I guess. Word of mouth in a small town. I was a really big thing too. And I had already known a lot of people, I come from a big family. My partner or my now husband knows a lot of people in his family and through ash and all of her connections and the people that I've met along the way in my network and friends, that in itself was advertising for me. So had I started in the city, I might not necessarily have had that. So I think it's definitely helped my business and is the benefit. And currently to, although there's not as many opportunities as what there are in the city, there are still ample opportunities, because I am here doing it. And again, I still have those networks and those resources. So it can be a little bit challenging, I guess, especially for some of the clients that I have worked with or want to work with the time and the travel. And now with young kids, it makes it a little bit harder to manage some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, I've just kind of ran with it. And for now, this is this is where I am, and this is where I want to be. And I'm not ruling out of move in the future. Because I believe, you know, when opportunities arise, you got to go to assess, and I am one of those, I say yes. And I figured the rest out later. So I'm not ruling it out. But at the same time, if I was to be here forever, then that's yeah, that's how it is. And I think that's been part of, especially through COVID, and stuff like that to adapting my business to not just be tunnel in what I offer. I can't just offer one thing. It's about learning. What are the things am I good at? What are my strengths? What other things can I offer? I think there's an opening in the market for different things that I'm kind of working on behind the scenes at the moment. So things like that, I think, yeah, it is in my benefit to be in Merritt, Gambia. It just makes it a little bit more work. Yes, sometimes when working with the people from away or, you know, to we have amazing stores here in Mount Gambia with a lot of amazing local businesses. But sometimes, you know, I don't have a Rundle Mall at my back door, or I don't have a Chadstone shopping center. So sorting things for clients can sometimes be a little bit challenging, too. So like I said, there are pros and cons. Either way, it's hard, but at the same time, yeah, I think it has made my business to be what it is today being in Mount Gambia. Yeah. And I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you talked about the word of mouth that community support, I think people here really get behind each other. Like if someone's gonna crack, they really support and share and tell people and social media, all that sort of stuff. It's a really good community. Yes. Yeah. It's great. We are very lucky to have that community. And And as I've said it like 1000 times, and I say, you know, I'm so grateful for the support that the community has shown, but I don't think I'll ever Yeah, ever get over that. Because to take an idea and run with it is nerve racking. And it's like daunting, and you know, it can be quite challenging. But when you get that bit of a support, I think, too, makes you want to support others in the community as well or their businesses because you know what it's like to get that sorry. I think it's yeah, it's great for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So turning over to your family side, you've mentioned your children, just in passing a couple of times. Tell us a little bit more about your kids. Yes. So I have Vance, who will be eight months old this week. And I have Ziggy who is turning three in May. So there's 10 days between their birthdays. So two years apart. My Yeah. Crazy boy. I say crazy boys. It's crazy. Crazy. He is He is my whirlwind and Vince is my little chiller so we'll see if it changes but yeah, it's it's been a roller coaster the last couple of years. It's and it's so true. People say it is the hardest thing that you will ever do, but definitely worth it. There are some days I want to pull my hair out by like breakfast time. And then there are other days where you're just like I'm smashing this I've got to get it down. Pardon. Yes. So but it's great. I love it. And I love being a boy mom and yeah, they they definitely keep me entertained, that's for sure. It's funny when I had I've got two boys and I like when I had my second boy Like everyone knew that will be my last child. I remember my, my pop said to me Oh, sorry, you didn't get your girl and I was like, but it's actually okay because I actually love having boys. I never had a brother. So I was totally new to this whole boy world. But it's so I just love it. It's just I know. And I was the same like 100% like total honesty, I was a little bit disappointed when we found out that the second was going to be another boy, I think just because the pregnancy for me was quite different. And I don't know, we both my husband and I had a strong feeling it was going to be a girl. And we never found out the sex was easy, but I was 100% locked in that it was a boy from the get go. And so yeah, I think this time, we were really 5050 on whether we were going to find out or not. And then we decided to, and then that little bit of disappointment lasted and then like for maybe a day and then the next day I was like this is so how it's meant to be. And I'm like it's so true when people say you just grateful to have a happy, healthy baby. And that's exactly what I was happy to have. And I was yeah, I felt very lucky. And now it's like dance was just always meant to meant to be mine. So I can't imagine life without him now. So I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did. Yeah, that's so sweet. I just got goosebumps when you said that. Because we say the same thing. Sorry. I'm getting emotional. We say the same thing available filler. It's like you just can't you just can't imagine not having him. No, you just, you were meant to be in our family law. 100%. That's I know, unlike even with the you like I say, you know, he's he's my crazy one. But I think they are very different personality wise and like, oh my gosh, I'd love to gamble with anything in this world. But he was a hard newborn. And we I don't think I slept for like, it felt like eternity. He wasn't a great sleeper. Wasn't a great feeder. Very busy, but, you know, like, he's still very affectionate at the same time. And now with events, he seems to have, I was worried us like if I'm gonna do that, on top of having a two year old I don't I don't know how things are gonna go. But now like Vince is you know, he sleeps quite well. And he's he's quite relaxed and quite chilled and just happy to take it all in. So I think Yeah, it's true that you just, you know, you deal with it, what you dealt with, but I think Vance knew that I needed a, I needed a good sleep at this time round. To be mine is delivered, delivered the good. I mean, apart from teething, that's to you better in the work yeah. In terms of your work, then were you able to keep working? I guess three pregnancies and like after you had I know you're sort of starting to get back in but after your head Ziggy where you were getting back into work? How that sort of go for you. Yeah, so when I was pregnant with Ziggy, I was diagnosed with hyperemesis. So that is like extreme nausea and vomiting, like, a lot. So it definitely threw a little bit of a spanner in the works. But I was really lucky at that time. Majority of my work was through ash, I was working with ash. So I was very lucky that you know, the days that it was really bad, I was able to head home or work from home and that sort of thing. And we're still doing my business, but I was mindful not to kind of overexert myself. And yeah, he's just kind of monitor but um, it was really funny, because the week before I went to the brown loads, the first time I actually found out I was pregnant that week with Ziggy and I had severe morning sickness. So I was actually styling the girls and want to get the brown light at the crown. I had five girls to do that year, and I was vomiting like, in their rooms. And so I had kind of blinded on nerves at the start. And then in the end, I had to tell them because I was like, they're gonna be like, What is going on with this chair? Because I had like, I'm really sorry, I'm actually pregnant and like violently ill. So that was a journey in itself. But then yeah, that had had that up until about halfway and then had a really enjoyable pregnancy busy, and then had probably about four or five months off when I had zeggen loved that time. You know, adjusting to motherhood. But for me, I love my kids that I know that they're not just me, I need to have a creative outlet and do a bit of work to make me I guess not lose that sense of self identity that was really important to me. I feel like I'd worked so hard to get to that point, I didn't want to then just, you know, lose it all. And that I just felt like it wasn't really in me to do that. So yeah, got back into a bit of work just part time. And then yeah, if anything, business just started booming, which was amazing, but was a bit of an adjustment after, you know, learning how to go back into the workforce as a mom and learning to do things on no sleep and learning about daycare and babysitters and routines and time management, I think was a big one. And then, yeah, when he was about 18 months old, we decided to start trying again. And yeah, I was like really quite lucky that we can say vets, but unfortunately, with his pregnancy came hyperemesis again, and, like double as intense, like, I was so sick it like, Oh, I get emotional talking about it, because I just don't know how I ever function through that. And I don't know, if people really understood how bad it was like mentally and physically. So I ended up before anyone knew I had to take six weeks off of work, because I was just struggling so bad. And it was at the time that I had just opened a new studio and was working out of that. So it was quite challenging. And that lasted the whole pregnancy. So I ended up having to start my maternity leave a lot earlier. And yeah, it just, I don't know, it was just just threw a massive spanner in the works, I think because physique, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have it to halfway and then I'm going to be fine. And it's going to be smooth sailing. And then when I kind of got to the halfway, I was like, why am I not feeling better yet? Like, this is not kind of what I what I had signed up for. As always, I had amazing clients who were very understanding and who was so good, but it was a real eye opener to me to take care of myself and and look after myself. And unfortunately, that just meant, yeah, putting everything on hold for for quite some time. So yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience. But just one of those things. You just got to ride ride the waves. And yeah, I've come out the other side. And maybe that's why I got a really good baby, because I had a really bad pregnancy. Maybe that's how it was. Yeah, you are that after all Yeah. I was reading one of your blogs on your website. When you were talking about that early phase after you you had ZTE. And one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you about you, you said that you were eager to have some time off and enjoy the phase. But you also you'd struggle to be fully detached from it all. So was that on your mind already? When you were pregnant? And going into having the baby we thinking, how's this gonna go for me? I'm used to being so creative. You know? How am I gonna feel? You know, it was and it was, it was really quite interesting. Because obviously, I guess until you're in that situation, and you are pregnant, and you are thinking you don't for me, I hadn't really thought about it. Like when we talked about having a baby and starting a family and all of that. It wasn't really something that I considered at that time. But then definitely as the pregnancy kind of Yeah, progressed, and I was sick, and it was changing my plans that was kind of that eye opener to Oh, that's right, like everything is going to change, you know, and how am I going to manage this? And I think for me, and I know like ash can vouch for this. I really did struggle with the thought of being put on hold again because I felt like I'd had to work so hard to get to that point. And those first couple of years were full of such highlights. You know, things like New York and the brown noise and Adelaide fashion festival and, you know, I went to Melbourne fashion festival and that was amazing. And there was all these things that I felt like was such huge highlights to me and then how thing that bit of I guess, I guess a little bit of worry to that, because I'm not relevant at the time or I'm kind of taking that time off. I didn't want to then lose all the business that I'd worked so hard to create and having to put myself out there again and starting started again. And, yeah, yeah, it was, and it was rebuilding, and it was quite challenging to, I guess, yeah, to switch off, but I know, definitely at the start, I did, because I didn't have a choice, I was literally so focused on that baby. And, you know, dealing with the sleep, and like learning how to mother and all of that, and I was really enjoying it too, like I, you know, was definitely had in the back of my mind, you know, a bit of work here, and there would be amazing, but I was really soaked into enjoying that time, because I know that you just don't get that time back. And especially with finance, that was one thing that I work this time around is that I'm not going to have that time back again. And they grow so fast, and just to enjoy it. So I had a lot longer off with Vance and what I did with Ziggy, I think two because I was much busier with the two than what I was just with the one it relearn how to parent again, but this time to two people at once. And yeah, it was definitely something that I Yeah, started, I guess struggling with throughout the pregnancy. But when I felt ready to and I knew that it was manageable. And I think for me, I kind of went into a bit of a downward spiral there. During the pregnancy, you know, we went into just a bit of, like chaos kind of around that time. And I just thought, you know what, I just, I need something, I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like Nana, I genuinely think, you know, it was the best thing I ever did. And everyone's different. Some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason. Other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what, what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. I'm like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish, because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. But I read this thing ages ago, and it's always stuck with me. And it's, we expect women to be mothers. And I can't I can't think how it goes. But it's like we want others to be, you know, mothers without working. But then we want like women to be working, you know, not mothering too. So it's, I'll have to find the quote. And it's something you know, and it was just so no matter what we're going to be judged whether we are working mothers, or whether we're stay at home mothers, either way, we're going to be judged. So I think it's about realizing that you just have to brush those those opinions off and just through Yeah, really what is right for you. And I know, I've received comments from both and some people like oh my god, it's amazing that you're getting back into work, and you're doing this and you're doing doing that. And then I've had the reverse it. Oh, but like do you do you think you should spend some more time at home with the kids and all this too? So I'm like, you know, you just take it with a grain of salt and you just got to really do what? What's right for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna Yeah, go back. Go back to I've actually printed out your blog post. Yeah, it's actually very inspiring. It's, it's, we expect women to work like they don't have children and to raise children as if they don't work. And it's like, a nutshell. I loved that. You you basically said, I feared if I wanted to work as soon as soon after having a baby I'd be seen as a bad mom. And then I realized something amazing, I can actually do whatever the hell I want. And it doesn't make me a bad person, let alone a bad mom. So I'm actually going to stick that on my little quote. Well, because that honestly you're right, it doesn't who gives a shit? Anybody else thinks because I can make Greg moments I like but no one is in your shoes. No one is in your home. No one is in your hair. Like yeah, yeah. I was just saying this to Josh, my husband the other day, I was like, you know, isn't it funny? All the pressures that we put on ourselves, especially I think it's first time moms. You know, all these expectations that we have of ourselves and have How things are gonna go. And, you know, like, it's, it's so funny because I think of myself as a cool, calm collected person. I know there's definitely times where I'm a stress head, or you know, I won't, I won't say that I'm always cool, calm and collected. But I think going into the pregnancy and into the having a baby. I felt like I was like that. And in some ways, I think that I was and then But then looking back on it now, especially since having Vance, I'm like, Gosh, I wish I knew with my first what I know with my second and all these things that I was stressing about with Ziggy. But now this time around, I'm like, I don't even have time to stress about that. Because it's when you've got the next one, you're just thinking about completely different things. And I was only we've just started like, a few months ago started solids with the answers and example. And I remember thinking, you know, I had this book was again, it was an A, this amount of grain per day and this amount of protein and this amount of fruit veg. Now I'm like with Vance, I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know any of that. I'm like, if he's hungry, he's hungry. If he wants to worry once more, and yeah, he's fine. If you look at him, he is massive, like, any of that stuff. So yeah, even I think that's why probably too, he's sleeping a bit better. Because I'm like, rat, you're getting wrapped up and you're getting put down. And just all the things that I second guessed myself is, uh, you know, this time around, and I said, you know, I could have been like that was to get the first time around, and it wouldn't have made me a bad mother. But at the time, I kept thinking on, is this how I'm supposed to be doing it? Or? Yeah, and I think because putting that pressure on myself through that time, I just got to a point of, I can't do this to myself anymore. And this is not me. And this is not who I am. And this is not my personality to be that way. And I think once I kind of through some of those, I guess, expectations of myself out the window, I definitely had a lot more of an enjoyable experience of motherhood. So yeah, it's good advice. Honestly, my story's very similar. I will my first I was just always stressed, always worried was, Is this right? How long should he sleep for? Is he getting enough milk, rara and the same thing? Like Alex was really full on like, didn't sleep, well didn't feed. And then there's seven years between my two kids, because I just couldn't be. Me and my siblings, actually their seven year. Yeah, yeah. So when I went back and got digs, I was like cheese. I hope I get a good kid this time. But I did, thank God, but I'm such a different person now. Like, I'm so much more relaxed. And because I've got that perspective, like you said, things that you were really worried about, you're like now or it's just, you know, things are just got to happen, because there's two of them now, and life's busy. I kind of wish this will sound really silly. But I almost wish I had I had twins, because then I wouldn't have had time to stress over all these little things I would have just doing stuff all the time. And just. And I have a really close, beautiful friend who has twins. And they were born like just before. So their birthdays. I think you're covering coming up soon. So they're like, Yeah, five months ahead of Ziggy. And I just remember thinking like when I was pregnant with him being like, and they already had another child. And I was like, oh my god, twins. And I was just like, Oh my God, and then watching her with hundreds. I was like, Oh, my God, like she just made it look so easy. And was so like, again, I felt like there wasn't it could have been different behind the scenes that she wasn't putting that pressure on herself. And it wasn't this and I learned a lot from her. And she was so helpful with with Ziggy when I was like pregnant with dance, and she was like, Oh, I'll take you for a few hours. And like, you're gonna take my child on top of your twins and your other child like a woman and I have to give her a shout out. And thanks, Candace. And she's just like, oh my god, I remember picking it up one day, and she barked at Him and given Him dinner. And he came around and I was just like, oh my god, like if she can do that, and she's I was like, then what am I even worried about? Like, oh, these things I'm like, I think it was the same. She just didn't have time. And she just did what she did. And honestly, they're the most beautiful little boys and I just say idolize Excellent guys. They just absolutely nailing parenthood. Oh, it's lovely to have those people around you, isn't it and select Edit. And for her to have done that. Like, it's like she knows what mums need. She knows the things that a yes, no, you know, yeah, that's awesome. Something for me. After having like, you know, until until you have a baby, you just don't know. You really don't know, unlike I mean, I've got lots of different friendship groups. In my sort of high school friends, I was only the second or third to sort of have have a baby. And then in other groups, you know, there was only a couple that that sort of had their first baby or young kids and when I had to get I remember messaging some of them and being like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like, I just I did not know what was involved and like I get it now I get it. And if anything, I think when my friends had babies, it almost gave me that little bit of confidence to be like okay, now I know that this is what they're going through at the same time and you know, hopefully I can drop a meal off here or there, or I can, you know, just send a text and see how they're going or be that ask questions. And I think, yeah, until you've done it, you just you just don't know, like he would eat. And I just instantly I remember like in the first few weeks after having Ziggy, but thinking of all of the people that I knew that had kids and just like having a newfound respect for them and being like, wow, like, I just yeah, it's just a crazy journey. And no one I don't think no matter what anyone says, either or just will not prepare you for what you're in for, especially in those first, you know, especially with the first time around and in those first few months of learning. And, you know, and dealing with the emotions, I think was a big one like God, like how can you love something so much? And yeah, I felt like I was not an emotional person. And then I think since having kids that's just gone out the window. And now I'm just emotional over everything. I'm not emotional, and I will just cry over something so stupid, and I'm okay. Yeah, cuz it definitely changed have changed that personality trait in me. Oh, sweet. But you're right. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter how much how many people try and prepare you for being a mother or a father. It's like, because your brain doesn't even go there. Like you don't believe them. Like, don't believe them when they say you won't get sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's nice. Like you just don't believe. I remember specifically one night with ZTE. I don't even know at the surface. I slept on the couch for six weeks when I had ZTE. Like I couldn't even sleep in the same room as my husband cuz he was getting up and going to work and like, we were just up all night. So it was trying to make sure that he got rest. And I remember sitting out on the couch one night and just like, I remember patting again, I was so delirious, I think I'd slept like an hour in like, it felt like a week. But it was probably like a day or two. I remember having him and being like, Oh, I remember when people said that I would be tired. But like I didn't understand to the extent of lack Watch out. And I remember that patting him on the back as I was half like micro sleeping like, this isn't tired. This like, this is not even tired. This is like pure exhaustion and like delirium. And until you know, I pick up people tried to warn me when I was like, yeah, no lesson until you're going through it. You just or when people say that you Yeah, that intense love or like imagining that God forbid anything happened to them. And I just remember there's been times where I've worked myself to tears, thinking, oh my gosh, if anything ever happened, like, I hope they know how much I love them. And you know, it's just, it's just a whirlwind, all the emotions, all the feelings, it's incredible. So you touched briefly on they talked about identity. So it's obviously very important to you to see that you're not just and I don't want to say just a man because you never, I'm doing air quotes. But it's yeah, it's important to you to be Kelly to be a wife to be the sister or, you know, a daughter that it's like, mum doesn't consume everything of your being. Yeah, it can't be just just me, I think, I think too, because part of that probably stemmed from, in, in my, I guess, business or my job, working with women and trying to push them to understand the same thing. And even before I had kids, a lot of the clients that I had were young mothers. And so you know, I was understanding but again until I'd been through it myself, I wasn't you know, I didn't understand fully what what they were experiencing what I was trying to teach them about their self worth and self esteem. And a lot of them were coming to me being like well, you know, we just We've just lost our way and we just don't have that confidence that about ourselves and we're just yeah, like a little bit lost and I was I guess for me it was good because I was an outside source. I wasn't you know, a sister or a friend or I was someone completely disconnected coming in and teaching them like you know, you are valuable and you know, it doesn't make you shallow to make you want to sell feel good and why not find this self identity and learn that it doesn't make them a bad person to yet take care of yourself. doing things for yourself or to re learn that for myself and I became a mom, it was like, I've done this for years. And now I'm doing it's like, I need to remember to hang on a minute. Yeah, it's okay for me to do things. And yeah, I think it was a really kind of useful tool, entering motherhood, after learning about all of this stuff. Because it kind of Yeah, gave me the stepping stones to learn for myself on that journey. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think what I'm finding talking to moms throughout this project is everyone needs something to fill them up. Like everyone needs something that meets their needs. Because mums are so busy looking after everybody else all day long. And, you know, fixing this and doing that and finding socks and cooking meals, that's fine. But then at the end of the day, there has to be something just for you. You know, it's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't feel guilty for that. Like, there's no reason to, to feel bad for that, you know? Yeah. And I remember Yeah, I think I said in that blog, I was like, you know, I was worried about, you know, being perceived as a bad mother. And I was like, if anything, it made me a better mother. It made me more patient and tolerant when I was had that bit of something for me, and I knew it made me a better parent to do that, then not to have that. So, yeah, for me, yeah. They've made me feel better within myself, which in turn, are good. I project that onto my kids in feeling good at second. And you know, it is a prime example today. You know, boy jumped on this. And you know, this. I have one of these days, I think the heat has just gotten to everyone I know, it's gotten to me, and we've had a stressful couple of days with everything that's been going on. And the kids haven't been sleeping super amazing. So I think after having such a good run, and then having sleep problems week or so, patient is not where where is I'm like, Ziggy's having meltdowns, university being and I started noticing all of this, and I had yesterday I was like, Alright, I've got to go and do something like for me or do something that I think it's going to make me feel better. And I am working with a brighter moment. And so for me, it created a bit of that stuff. So sometimes, you know, self care isn't just going and taking 20 minutes alone, sometimes it can come in many different forms. It could be surgically, you know, a walk or something like that. But for me, that creative outlet is almost a bit of my self care. Yeah. So I think it's about learning to Yes, what it is that makes you feel better, or what you get enjoyment out of and making time for that, because I'm definitely a candidate that in the last few days, you know, it's a domino effect when I'm stressed it shows in my children. Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. It's just, yeah. When Mom's not happy, no one's happy. Exactly. My husband watch for that, too. I see him he's a he's been very patient. Tonight, I ask what sort of, if you've got anything coming up, you want to share about things you're working on? Or? I mean, I'm not asking you to, you know, give away any secret stuff. But have you got anything you wanted to share with the listeners? So when I was introduced, last year, I was so sorry, yeah, last year, in the year before, gosh, it feels like it's almost like a lifetime ago now. I started watching weddings, and like wedding planning and brides. I've worked on a few weddings since then. But I'm actually currently in the process of a complete rebrand and overhaul to focus a lot more on that. So that'll be a complete separate side my business now, which is really exciting. And I'm also currently in the process of creating a new little workspace. So that's been Yeah, a little bit exciting. And it's a slow process, but where we're getting there. So even though Brendan started one of those things, like I have an idea and kind of find time to make that idea work and put the things into that idea can sometimes take a little while. But yeah, definitely. There's a lot of things at the moment. So yeah, if anyone that follows my page or you know, keeps up to date, just stay tuned, because it's all coming about very soon. Well, that's so exciting. That's it So it's like, it's been a real sort of, you know, the, over the last few years like this growth and development for you that you've sort of found things that you love doing. And it's like you've realized there doesn't have to be limits to what you can offer people, like it's just kept building and building. That's so great. learning on the job, you know, I originally started out just making wardrobe audits for people. And as much as I love that my business has progressed a lot more on top of that, and, you know, just I really, it was, was really quite interesting, because last year, I hit, you know, a milestone of how many clients I'd had, and going back through those clients, and actually looking at the different things that I had done in that time. And, you know, I'll always remember those first few clients that I work with, and the things that I'm working on now. It just, yeah, it's it really has evolved into something a lot more than I ever envisioned, and the things that I was doing then to what I'm doing now, you know, working with businesses for their uniforms, and like family shoots, and maternity shoots and stuff like that, what I was doing was event based, as well. And I think it's, you know, even things now that I'm offering digitally that I wasn't able to do beforehand. So it is nice to kind of, I think it keeps exciting to I'm one of those I like a bit of a challenge. And I like you know, having having things happening. So it is really good. There's a lot of, you know, different avenues, you know, in the short term, but again, that doesn't necessarily what I can do in a long term. I'm, you know, it's one of those things, I have all these grand ideas that just believe in the time everything, so I'll be, you know, styling the Oscars or something like that in no time. So stay tuned for that. We'll make sure that we're when we hear your name on the road. We can manifest it out there. Oh, absolutely. That's it. Thanks so much for coming on. Kelly. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for having me. Having a chat. Yeah, it's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Suzanne Culberg Australian writer + coach S2 Ep65 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Suzanne Culberg to the podcast. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney Australia, and a mum of 2 children. Suzanne is known as The ‘Nope’ Coach who helps over-givers and people pleasers learn to say ‘No’ without feeling like a Bitch. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book The Beginning is Shit reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was eating was the catalyst to drive Suzanne to help others. Suzanne’s passion for helping women is fuelled by her own experiences of over-giving, over-consuming, and over-doing everything. She’s on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves but also to make boundaries normal. We should be saying ‘No’ more often. Through her signature online program Why W8? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a Certified Practitioner of Neuro Linguistic programming (NLP) and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science (Honours). She also has Certificates III and IV in Fitness, and is a Certified Sacred Depths Practitioner. Connect with Suzanne website / instagram / facebook Connect with the podcast website / instagram If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Suzanne Kohlberg. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney, Australia, and a mum of two children. Suzanne is known as the note coach who helps over givers and people pleasers Learn to say no without feeling like a beach. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book, The beginning is shit. Reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was overeating was the catalyst to Dr. Suzanne to help others. Suzanne's passion for helping women is fueled by her own experience of over giving over consuming and overdoing just about everything. She's on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves, but to also make boundaries normal. We should be saying no more often through her signature online program. Why wait? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a certified practitioner of neuro linguistic programming, and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science. She also has certificates three and four in fitness and is a certified sacred depths practitioner. Please music you'll hear today is from my new age ambient music trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. And apologies for the quality of my voice at the moment. I do have a bit of a sniffle. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Lovely to meet you. It is lovely to meet you. So Mount Gambier in South Australia. Is it? Yeah, right down the bottom. We're about 20 minutes from the coast. So we're like south southeast corner really close to them. Yeah, we're about to you. I'm in Kellyville. So Western Sydney, an hour out of CBD. Okay. Yeah, right. I I've never been to Kellyville to the UK. What's funny, I only moved here three years ago, my mum grew up in Sydney. And then we moved to Tassie. My husband, I've moved around quite a bit. But anyway, mums like killer whales like farmland, and I'm like, might have been 40 years ago. But now it's very much suburbia. Right? And only 40 minutes from Sydney. So I'd like be pretty, pretty intense sort of building. Sort of, it's actually awesome. It's such a lovely kind of like suburbia plays. It's funny because I grew up in Tassie, and then we've lived in Kingaroy. So also rural. And when we first moved here, because I'm not much of a driver in traffic, and a friend invited me to drummoyne I didn't think to look where it was. And I was like, I assumed it'd be like this, but I had to end up going at the Cross city tunnel over the Harbour Bridge. And, like my anxiety was like, just not good. Yes. Welcome along. It's really lovely to have you and I I'd love you to just start by sharing about what it is that you that you do and what you create. Oh, I love this because I've never really to be honest, consider myself creative. And it was like, Yeah, but I've written a book. So I grew up in a very family that was kind of against the arts. It was like there's no money in that. And yeah, but I'm like closet creative. And I really love to journal and I write a weekly newsletter which you're technically supposed to be at my about my business, but usually it's just like a journal entry. Last week I wrote about my child's first concert in the choir. And I love the responses because like they're right there with you. It's like yeah, I am creative. All my life people said you should write a book So I eventually did and I self published that last year. And I have a few others in the works. But it's yeah, it's a it's a commitment to put a book out there. But I do. Yeah, I've written a newsletter every week now. Rain, hail or shine for five years. Oh, well done. Thank you. That's an achievement, isn't it? It's certainly yes. So you say that your sort of family were against the idea of being, you know, having making a career when you're a child, were you sort of, were you doing art and creative stuff when as you were growing up? I wanted to so I, it's funny. I'm an introvert and a socially awkward person. But at one stage, I wanted to be an actor. Yeah. My parents are like, so few people make it like, what's it's interesting, what's modeled to you. And I'm sure they had the best of intentions. But it was kind of like, if you can't do really well at something, why do it at all? So yeah, not the kind of attitude that I want to inspire in my children. But anyway, I remember at one stage, trying out for a play, and we lived really, and there was no bus service out to our house. And I got in and my parents were like, well, how are we going to? He gonna go to this? Because it was two weeks at the Playhouse Theatre in Hobart. Oh. And anyway, a friend also got in and her mom, they had four kids, what was one more, so I just lived with them for the two weeks that the show was on. And it was so fabulous for me because I'd always lived out in the country. So to live with this buses, and you can actually go to things instead of having to sit outside your parents work after school. It was just fabulous. And yeah, I loved I loved it, though, as I said, socially awkward, and that not really was ever going to be a career. But I do like to dabble. Oh, good on. Yeah. It's interesting isn't those blocks that we get from other people in our lives? And I mean, I've got a had an interesting one recently, with my husband regarding my work, and it was the same the words that just came out of your mouth literally the same as is like, well, how are we going to make that work? And it's like, well, can't we just be pleased that this is happening, you know, look at look at the achievement level of something. And then it's like, the rest can work itself out later, is interesting that like, that's the initial response. I'm always really fascinated by what's going on for that person to make them. That's the that's the first thing they say, You know what I mean? He will those his story I read once, it's like a parable. And it's about this gentleman who fishes for a living. And this like lawyer or businessman or something comes along to him and goes, well, you could, you know, get extra boats and hire a team and charter and all this sort of stuff. And he's like, to what end? And he's like, well, so then like, you know, you can retire and go fishing. And he's like, but that's what I'm doing now. So I think sometimes we get caught up in the hustle and bustle of, you know, how much is this gonna make or how's this going to support us or whatever, but we're miserable. And the thing is, we always tend to like make do not in a like, sad way. But you know, there's there's a joy that we miss when we're chasing $1 or chasing a certification or achievement of some sort. I definitely agree with that. I feel like our capitalist societies got so much to ask for in that respect is 100% D. So you mentioned that you've written a book and you've got more in the works, what does the sort of what are your books about? And then memoirs, and I laugh at when people say memoirs is in plural, and I'm like, it's never been official, but I love Glennon Doyle before she was going well, she's always been claimed or before she was famous. I came across her with her first book, which was carry on warrior. And then I read Love warrior and then obviously I've read untamed but they're all kind of memoir style, like the all little snippets of her life. And so my first book is a weight loss memoir. It's about my journey with weight and body image. And the second one will be a business memoir, like from one printer to entrepreneur, like the real thing, not the six months to six figures in six steps. Yeah, nonsense. Right. slogging the reality of final one I have in the works for now that there may be more because as I said, I've moved around a lot. So I could write about that as well. It would be a parenting one like my, I love the harasser gene and a few other people who write about like real parenting, not the thing. And my kids actually have, I think, a bigger following than I do. The number of people who like I follow you for your son. So yes, he's destined for the stage. But yeah, like, and people have said to me a number of times that I should write something like funny things my kids say, because I often put the little snippets on Facebook purely for me. So when the memories come up, I'm like, Oh, I remember that. But then they just have kind of taken off. I think the last thing I shared with him had nearly 100 likes so I was like something of mine. 10 likes something if my son 100. Let's go. Yeah, so you mentioned your son, how many children do you have? towards you? You have two children? Yep. So Xanthi is nine. She's a girl, I say because the names are unusual. And beautiful name. Thank you and Casimir. He is seven. Oh, that's a lovely name to what they like unusual names gonna say were they inspired by like literary or anything particular? Well, my husband and I both wanted unusual names. So not commonplace. So we like read through the baby book and highlighted ones and finding ones we both agreed on was the biggest challenge. And Santi We just liked them baby book. But then Casimir is also it's French was also polish. And in Poland, it's spelt Cazal own France is spelt kazimier with a K and is it spelled it with a C and S has actually been like seven King customers in Poland. But it was also a character and a couple of books that I've read. So we liked that name. And then they've both got like more traditional middle names. If for whatever reason they didn't like their first name, they could just go by their middle name. That's cool. It's funny you say I don't know how I fell upon it the other day on the net, as you do, you know, you just see these random stories, there was this lady that has changed her child's name. He's 18 months and she changed it because it didn't suit him anymore or didn't suit the child that she thought he would become. So she named him Aspen because she thought he was going to be like a outdoorsy kind of child and take after his father. And his clear opposite. So they've changed his name to Luke and sloth would like to start I don't know, I just don't I it's really weird, because I don't know I don't understand it. I think I just I don't know. James fascinate me. It's really interesting because mites of mine, I'm the youngest of four. My name is Suzanne, and my sisters all have names that start with C. And I was going to be Korean. But then my sisters are like, Oh, I know someone like that. And she's not a nice person. And every name my mum came up with one of them because they were all significantly older than me. And in the interest like, is it a boy after your father? If it's a girl after me, Don Oh, wow. So I was like, I just I know I wanted a name. But then I didn't want any of that nonsense of people telling me I didn't like it. So I didn't tell anyone. Neither my husband nor I did. And my daughter was not quite two. When Cassidy was born, she knew it. And I can still remember my family asking her but she couldn't quite pronounce it so that she was telling it was catch me. It was really funny. Oh, that's hilarious. On names, like my youngest is called DP, which is it's not unusual. It's just not very common. And I deliberately didn't test that out on anyone because I thought I might get a lot of pushback from that. And then I'll feel uncomfortable about it. So my husband and I sort of didn't say the same to anyone. But then when he was born, and we said, oh, well, it's a boy. It's Digby, the midwife said, Oh, I've got a friend with a dog called DB. And I've just got a Thanks for telling me that you know, like, it's not necessary. Listen to one of your episodes. You mentioned dig because one of my friends when we were pregnant, our children had the same due date. Her Yeah, how you give your baby a name. Fenty was just Jelly Bean. But her son was Digby while she was pregnant. And I thought that was so funny. I ended up calling him something else. Yeah, sometimes I still refer to him as Digby, the midwife he said a dog and Cassidy was born. And I said to the midwife, she's like, Oh, cashmere, like the sweater. But then I thought Oh, that'd be one. So After he gets a quite a bit actually cashmere, and he gets embarrassed about it like you can always correct somebody on the pronunciation like that is your name. So once you do it politely, yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, yeah. And giving the children that, that empowerment to set their boundaries, I think from a young age is incredibly important. That's certainly not something I had as a child. So I think it's great to be able to give them give them that as their when they're little. On your Instagram bio, you've got there that you help women say no, without feeling like a bitch. Can you expand on that for you? You're allowed to work on the show wasn't sure? Sometimes in a way that feels good. So I'm like, okay, that just sounds nicer. So it's funny, you mentioned boundaries. Because growing up and I had never made this connection. This is why I love being on podcast, because the things that come up, the only boundary that was instilled in me was my name. Because my mother had the same name as me and stuff I remember at school. This teacher always called me Susan. And I always corrected her and said it was Suzanne. And when one time she's like, Well, I'm just going to call you Susan. And I'm like we can but I'm not going to answer. She called my mom, like the only time in my school history because I was a bit of a teacher's pet. When my mum got called in. And then she came, she had to leave work. And my mum was like, Okay, well, what's this about? And a teacher told her that my mum was like, I took time off work for this. That's not cheeky, that's her name. felt like the only time in my life and I'd forgotten about like, I remember, but I've forgotten to we're having this discussion. But ya know, I wasn't conditioned to have boundaries, it was children should be seen and not heard. And always be respectful. And, and the school motto, the school I went to was others first yourself last. Oh, like that's a bit much reflect the things that you just take as a child and you don't question. Yeah. So basically, I think that by saying yes to everybody else, and no to myself, is a what have led to me over eating a lot. Because it was kind of like food doesn't talk back food doesn't care. food's always my friend. And yeah, the less space I allowed myself to take up with my personality, because I couldn't say no, and I didn't want to be an imposition. The more I took up physically, because it just had to have an outlet. So when I originally went into business, I was funny, I was an accidental entrepreneur, I basically had issues at the beginning. I'm not creative. I started a Facebook page that was just chatting about what it is that I was doing a newsletter list that's just talking about my life. And then people were like, Oh, can you work with me? Okay, and then I got certified as a coach. And I had the most fun that first year of my business in terms of what lit me up. And then I was like, well actually should like make this profession and the business coach was like, What do you Nish and what's your people don't just ask to work with you. Like you have to make offers. Like that's been my entire business. Yeah, never made an offer. Yeah, um, so then I niched into weight loss because I'd had a big weight journey, but I must admit, I've never been passionate about weight loss because it's more about what's going on internally. The weight the number the size of the clothes. Yes, that is a big deal when you're struggling with it. But you can force yourself to lose weight and still be miserable and unhappy. So anyway, I recently I'm in the process my website's still coming have at the time recording this anyway. rebranding to the nope, coach and helping people say no women say no without feeling like a bitch. Yeah. Because you know, when we say yes to others, and no to ourselves, there's that that resentment, the seed of resentment, like and I just think it's so much better to say an honest no. Then a resentful Yes. And you're baking the cookies now do it and it's about how to do that in a way you know, without feeling like a bitch and in a way that honors both of your needs. Because I'd much rather if I'm like, Hey, Alison, I'm having a Tupperware party. You want to come and you're like, Suzanne, I can't stand Tupperware but if you have a I don't know. I'm not really into the things that I've seen and you can feed me come on over like that to me so much nicer then you saying? Yeah, sure. I'm going to come canceling on the day when I've cleaned my house and made all the food. So I think sometimes we think and they ended up The example of it wasn't I can still remember when I was growing up. I thought my mum liked white linen, the perfume, I saved up for it. And for every Mother's Day and I thought I was so amazing. And I eventually found out she's like, I can't stand it. Oh, I didn't you tell me yes ago like this was money and I thought, and then when my kids, I've got my own kids now. And my daughter bought me something for Mother's Day, it was like a hand cream thing. And I said to her, I love this. Thank you so much. Please don't buy me things like this again, because I've got a sensitive smell. There's some things that I like to buy on my own. And I remember my mom like raking over the coals and saying how horrible it was. And I said no horrible is accepting something for two decades. And then telling me you didn't like it. It's that fear of offending people, isn't it? It's, we've got a hold this, this is something that's become really evident that when we're recording this, the Queen passed away in the last few days. And I feel like it's brought up all this stuff about doing the right thing and be seen to be doing the right thing. So everybody thinks you're good. And I don't I just this that English, stiff upper lip sort of behavior that, you know, keep calm and carry on. It's like, No, you can actually be honest with people, it might be a little bit uncomfortable. When you first say actually, sorry, I don't want to go out for tea with you. Because I haven't seen you in 10 years, and I don't really feel comfortable reconnecting in that way. Everyone goes, Oh, that's like, well, that avoids uncomfortableness for everybody in the future. You know, if someone says, Yeah, sure, I'll come out for tea. And then next time, they say, oh, let's all catch up next month, and it becomes this great big thing. And you're going I don't want to say these people I've moved on I've grown or whatever it might be any situation. That's Brene Brown her quote, choose discomfort over resentment. So it's uncomfortable to say in the moment, no, or no, thank you, or not right now. But then there's the you know, the resentment where you get stuck, because the thing is, so like, it's say, the movies too, if you're like, you're gonna go see this. It's like, actually, I don't like horror, or I don't like whatever it is, but if it was something else, because then it's really clear. And another thing Brene Brown says he's clear, he's kind. So I would much rather like you know, and I think it also to the thing with saying no, without feeling like a bitch, a lot of us are over givers, like we give and give and give to others. And we're unable to receive. And I think that's why we over consume over eat over, stay up late over watch Netflix. And you know, it's kind of like, well, when we can actually say no, and not over gift to others, then we can start giving to ourselves. And instead of having passion projects, littering every available space in our house that we don't actually make time to do, we can do the things that we want to do, rather than doing the things that are expected of us. Because also to sometimes say I said to you, Hey, you want to go and see a movie and I'm actually not contributing worse. I honestly would not be offended. I'd rather that's I was talking to a client recently. And sometimes it just takes someone to point it out to you. She went to a friend's house, her best friend had just bought a coffee maker, the Caribbean best friends with her best friend would know. But anyway, I digress. She's like, do you want to a coffee or whatever? My client doesn't drink coffee. And she didn't want to offend her. So she says she draw. And then she's trying to drink it. Because she was I couldn't I couldn't drink was that bad? Yeah. And the person said, Oh, what's wrong? And then she admitted, I don't actually drink coffee. And she's like, why don't you say I could have made you a hot chocolate? Like, wow, oh, anywhere. And people say hey, do you want to drink? I used to in the past always say no, because we're conditioned. Don't take anything. Don't ask for anything or whatever. I say, What have you got? Yeah, the thing is, I don't want to be demanding and say like, if I'm a you know, I only drink hot chocolate. We don't have any. What do you have? Yeah, open it up. I don't eat meat. And I used to get really nervous and uncomfortable at restaurants, asking if thing was in particular things. And I got over that pretty quickly. Because I once had an experience where I'd asked what was in a particular source or can't think what it was. Oh, it was it a Thai restaurant, it was in some sort of like a soup, like a broth. And I didn't ask and as I was eating it, it was like, I am pretty sure this is like fishing or whatever. And I thought, right, this is this is a lesson G Alison that you need to actually open your mouth and say, so now I don't care. I just say a sheltered from the roof. And if there's nothing else I say, I'll just eat a plate of vegetables so you can stay with vegetables and that'll be fun. Yeah, but being scared to actually honor yourself. Like as a kid when I grew up, I was so afraid to even you know, I'd be at the back of a line waiting and sharp and I get to the front of the line and I'd be so nervous to even just ask for what I wanted. Like, just I've got my dad he pretty sure I got it from my dad. He would walk backwards and forwards past this little deli in this small town where he lived, waiting for them to notice him. So they've let him in because he was too nervous to go in by himself. So it's like, we've all got these little things that we're carrying around. And it's great that, you know, you're offering women that opportunity to do the work to move past that. And then perhaps not pass that on to the next generation. So we're breaking those those habits that have continuously come down. I think that's been what's the most important thing for me not passing my habits on to my children, because children learn through modeling, not what we tell them. So by me modeling having really clear boundaries and me modeling, asking for things, and then also dealing with the disappointment, because just because you asked for something doesn't mean it's going to be a yes. So it's funny with both my kids and my clients, I'm like, you guys can ask me for whatever you want. Don't expect to Yes, though, like, negotiate? Absolutely. So yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's really powerful isn't it? So in your experience, and what was it? How did that sort of play out for you personally, then through it through? Or how did it start for you to sort of realize that your behaviors were connected to the way that you were eating the way you were using food? How did that sort of spark for you? It? Well, they say hindsight, life's leap forward, but understood backward. So I'd been a lifelong Dieter, my parents put me on my first diet when I was four. Oh, that's spoken about in the book. I have to send me your address later, I will not post your copy. Yes. And so I knew how to diet and I knew how to lose weight. And I'd lost and gained in excess of 500 kilograms in my life. Like, I'm, I, I'm good at it. But I was like, there must be something else going on here. Like I'm a fairly smart person. Like, what, what else is beyond? Because the thing is, so many of us know what to do, eat less, move more. It's not that hard. But we just don't do it. Like, why do we eat when we're not hungry? What are we really hungry for? And if true physical body hunger, hunger isn't the issue foods not going to solve it? Yet we we go like most of us are really good all day. And then at night, especially once you have kids and the kids go to bed, start going into town, or for me now my tell is when I buy something for the kids. It's like, yeah, that's totally for you. But it's kinda like, when we don't do anything for ourselves. So like, we make the plans. So we've got a fridge full of vegetables that are wilting, while we buy cheap and cheerful because it's just easier to keep the peace, or we've got the gym membership. But we know that kids don't want to go in the crate, or they're going to cry. So we like just don't go. And, and I believe like giving and receiving. And like inhaling and exhaling, they're paired, you can't have one without the other. So over giving, saying yes to your kids, the school, your parents, your neighbor, your husband, your friends, is paired with over consuming. So so many people think I've just got no willpower, or I can't control myself or whatever. And it's like, it's because you say no to yourself all day, every day. That in the evening, it just levels out and the body is just like nope, so this and then with that then leads into this big shame spiral. So it's really how many of us do have passion projects and love. Creativity is one of them art or things that we've been conditioned as well because you can't make a career out of it. Why bother? Or because someone else's is better than yours. Like, I have my two children they're only two years apart. But my my son's still at the age where whatever he draws he thinks is the best thing ever. And my daughter's reached that critical age where she's like, but hers is looking better or the you know, that kind of thing. And we still have the part of his inside that wants to draw a purple horse with foreheads and glitter and that's it. But we don't indulge that because we don't have time yet. But then we have time to stay up to 2am binge watching shows and eating. So so often when I say to People like the secret not so secret is to actually indulge those passions. And they're like, Well, I don't have time, or money or space, or this or that or the other. And it's like, but you've got four hours to, you know, scroll Facebook and watch cat videos and boom, scroll. It's like, yeah, you do have the time, you just not purposing it in a way. And it's not gonna be like a switch that you can understand intellectually. But it's like actually making that time in small pockets during the day. Like, it was funny. This morning, I was in a funk. And I was like, I just want to eat chocolate, like nothing else. It's like, what do I really understand son, I just say, five minutes to breathe. I'm like my husband, he take the kids. And I come back here, and I'm ready to go. But normally, we wouldn't allow ourselves that. And I think the other reason eating is so easy is because we don't have to read or create or sculpt or paint, but we got to eat. So we tend to not have as much guilt associated with that because we need to survive. So once you you developed this understanding of how your behaviors or thoughts were affecting the way you're eating, you're talking about little changes, over what sort of timeframe were you able to sort of implement this, like, I've got this, I hate these, you know, six week gym, you know, come and lose so many kilos. And we're like, I just test them. I was involved in the fitness industry for many years as an instructor, and then I took a break, and then came back and instructed in a different way, which I loved. But I'm very, very aware of the way that certain industries will latch on to people's insecurities, and will make them think that if you go hard for this short period of time, sure you, you might lose a few kilos, and you'll feel really empowered and amazing. But then you can't sustain this, you cannot go to the gym twice a day, for the rest of your life. And it's not, it's not good for you, it's not good for your family, your relationships, anything around you. So was that sort of on your mind, too, that it wasn't going to be a quick fix. It was something that implementing your life and sort of see how it changed over a period of time. 100% Someone who read my book recently and sent me a message was like, the part I loved. Whereas you're like, I'd rather be fat forever. Then keep doing this to myself. Yeah. And it's like, it's it's hilarious, because now I have a program not targeted at weight loss. It's over consuming in whatever way we do it. Because anyway, I digress. But originally, I opened that as a membership for the very reason that you just touched because six week eight week challenges, like I was already dreaming about the Mac has been John is going to have at the end, and how you lose the weight is how you keep it off. And none of these things are sustainable, and they profit and benefit from the fact that you praise them. Like this thing is the best thing ever. When I'm on it, I lose weight. And then you self blame yourself. I'm the fat lazy fuck who can't keep doing it. Yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm from. And I never wanted my business being that way. But what I found, interestingly about having a membership rather than a program, is people would get to a point where it was time for them to move on. Like they had spent enough time they kind of just slunk out like there was guilt or whatever. Like no, let's celebrate. And like you know, and also to sometimes what should have been a graduation became a divorce when people stayed too long. So I actually re adjusted my business and now it is a 10 week program. I just delivered the last call of the current round today, where the difference in the in the last week we celebrate we harvest like what have we done over these last 10 weeks? And what I love it because every time I run it, we get to that point and there's a people who are always like, cringing or shattering or feeling so guilty because I thought I was going to and I'm like no, let's nip that go hard or go home stuff in the bud. Because I believe it's like you when you're a kid you play that game warmer and colder. Someone finds something and you go What am I what my heart heart? Well, if you are used to doing this challenge type things where it's all or nothing and you get to the end and you're like I didn't go hard. It's like colder, colder, colder, freezing like you're telling the universe Like, what's the point and then you're saying to yourself, I'm just gonna binge on everything and then get so sick of myself, I start again, like, that's not good. Whereas if you get to the end of the 10 weeks and you're like, Okay, you know, I listened to two of the 10 modules was eight modules. I turned up to a call I did one action is like warmer, warmer, warmer, warmer. And that gives us the momentum. So that you asked, and I got on a whole tangent, but releasing the weight took me three years. Yeah, right. So sometimes people will be like, Oh, that's so long. But when you're there, it's like, it doesn't matter. The time is gone anyway. And it stayed off. Like I'm a little bit heavier right now. I'll be honest, COVID hasn't been the kindest, I don't want any more, because I don't want any inanimate object telling me what I should think about myself anyway. Yeah, tell him my clothes. But it's kind of like it's you only ever hear now. Whereas when you force yourself to eat miso soup in shakes and go to the gym four hours a day, yeah, you're gonna shed a lot of weight. But really, it's water and muscle as well, anyway. But as soon as you actually eat again and calm, it's all gonna come back. And that's no way to live that's on or off. So let's see, yeah, this all or nothing approach? Yeah, no, I love that. And it's not. And when you're talking about, you know, your, the content that you're presenting to people, I'm guessing this isn't, you know, go for a run or do some squats or whatever this is all what's going on in your mind and working on yourself. I don't actually give them a prescription as in, here's what you do. I help them uncover what it is for them. Because I like that saying the same water that softens a potato hardens and egg. So whenever you do a program, there'll be some people who get great results, and other people who get nothing. And then some will be like, Well, you didn't cheat it or you didn't try hard enough, we did this, but your body is just not the same as their body. So it's about finding like the habits and the things that you want to cultivate that work for you. Like one of the people in my current round is a writer, like a professional writer who publishes books, like why and to, but one, I count myself as a writer for evermore, because I've done one, she's a traditionally published body of work type person. And the penny habit that we're working on for her is just writing for. Because the thing is, you sit down, you go, Oh, I'm gonna write for an hour, and then our half an hour, and then I'll do it tomorrow. So it literally she has to open her thing and write the date. And then from there, we can keep it going. Because what we tend to do is we like set our goal exercise, writing, meditating, whatever, like 45 minutes or nothing. And then six out of seven days a week, we ended up with nothing. Yeah. Whereas if you made it really, really small, like write the date, or for my walking on its go to my mailbox, which is 12 steps from my house, you usually keep going because you've got your shows, or you've got into the rhythm. So the the work we do in the program isn't like a secret thing. It's, you know, cultivating these habits that we do consistently and persistently, and looking at our resistances because we've all joined something, this is gonna be the thing. Two weeks later, you're like, No, next thing. Exactly. And I guess that the importance that you're talking about is you make it, you tailor it to your own life. It's not like you're getting these rules shoved out, you have to do this, you have to do this. And then it's like, Whoa, it just becomes overwhelming. It's like you look at yourself, you look at your life and where those changes and adjustments can be made. And that's different. We have different numbers of kids, we have different jobs. We live in different locations the world because the thing is my pet peeve, The Biggest Loser like I was always obsessed with going on the sharks, I thought that would change my life. Why did they not all but almost all of them gain weight when they go home? Like what is with that? It's because when you go into a show, or in my book I wrote about when I went to fat camp was a health retreat, but I call it fat power. While you're there, you've got no other responsibilities. You don't have to work. You don't have to show up. You don't have family, you don't have drama, you don't have internet, you don't have anything. He's just there to focus purely on you. And then you have this wonderful time and you go home and you're like, I'm going to keep this up. And then you've got real life. So the thing about the program that I run, like every round, there'll be people who are disappointed. It always pulls on my heartstrings. But we have life stuff goes on. And I've caught my program. Why wait? Because what are we waiting for? There's never going to be the perfect time. Oh, there's people who get sick kids who get unwell. You know, some people home away from home for the first time this round. We had somebody moving out and there's empty nest and all this stuff. That's life, but not as in like, let's just wait but as in like this, we are a cog in this and how can we make these things that become part of our life rather than putting your life on hold to fix ourselves? We're not broken. Yes, yeah, no, that's really valid. I think that's that's something that I spoke about on a podcast. I was a guest on it last week about we've all got this idea that, Oh, when this happens, we'll be happier or I have to wait for this to happen. And then I can do that and then I'll be happier. It's like, there is no perfect time. It's literally life is just rolling and it just keeps going and there's always going to be something like you say the kids get sick and throw things out the window and whatever it is there's always something happening. Yeah, and I guess that's the thing you touched on earlier about that horrible motto of your primary school where, you know, putting yourself last, like, as a mother, I feel like we're conditioned to do that. It's like, everybody else has to be happy before us, and our needs come last. And I, I, I hate that so much. And I find that talking to women on this podcast, it's, it's imperative and important and almost essential that they do put themselves first and think of themselves as worthy of, of their commitment and their time and with their art practice, you know, but I feel like women who feel like they don't have that something, that passion project or that whatever, can sort of get lost then about well, how do I put myself first, what does that look like for me? Growing up, my mom never had friends. She never had hobbies. Like, I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. But like, I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom. Like, honestly, if this is what it means to be. Your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband when I was 18. And we, when we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything, but we weren't sure. And then we decided or wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2010 years together, and then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think you know, it's like, this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like, there was a little bit of mourning there. Oh, and, and then I was like, I don't have to be the mum. But my mum was. And yeah, like, I have friends. I have hobbies, I have a business. And I model really good boundaries to my children. And some people think that I'm too harsh, or this or that or the other. But then other people like, wow. And I'm like, Yeah, because I don't stand for anything else. But also to encouraging them that their needs and their things are important. And that we all have time. So we have different games that different ones of us like to play and we have a little chart on the fridge when we take turns about who gets to choose and all that kind of thing rather than it's just kind of like I remember the the Goldilocks story and mommy mama bears porridge was always cold. And I had a story about that with my son recently because I always say to my kids, I like porridge. And like if your breakfast takes 12 minutes before I have it, do you want anything? No, I want it later today. And I'm like You do realize mommy's making hummus. Yeah, that's fine. He was like, Oh, mommy, but it's cold porridge. I'm like, Yeah, I mean, Damn straight. It's like you had the thing. You can wait. I think it's kind of like it's just learning. And in life, we don't always get our way. And yet we say to our kids, they're first but then suddenly, when you have your own kids, you've now got to go from first to last. It's really it's kind of like an identity shift. And even with choosing TV shows, it's funny. I live away from my family, my husband and I interstate. So we don't have we see them that often. But I don't really like kids movie. So it's funny. I was on a podcast recently somebody asked me about bluey because I'm Australian. And I had to admit that that's the show my husband watches with the kids. But anyway, I hired a babysitter to take my kids to the movies and other some people will like that's the best idea ever. Because I'm an introvert. I don't want to go out. I don't want to hire a babysitter and go out. I want them to take them. But I didn't have to see the kids movies. And I could stay at home. Like that was like just groundbreaking for me. The kids get what they want. Yeah, I get what I want. And we're all winning my husband I went to Phantom of the Opera in the opera house awesome. And my kids went to see whatever the latest 3d pet movie or I don't know, some super pets or so like everybody was happy. That it's almost like it's normalizing doing things differently. It's breaking down that what we think we're supposed to do, because that's what has always been done. I love all these posts at the moment. People have like normalized naps, you know, having a nap in the middle of the day, you know, normalize something like, it's just like, Why? Why are we pretending that life has to be perfect? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. You know, when you're talking about your porridge, and you know, the kids having to wait, there is nothing wrong with your kids having to wait, like, I have this thing that, that we've got that, you know, the kids want something. So we will have to drop everything and go do it for them. And the same with the games, like, my little one always wants to play the same board games. And like, I don't mind it so much, because I enjoy some of them. But my husband's like, I want to play this game, you know, it's like, well, let's say to him, we don't want to play this, let's pick something else, you know, they don't always have to come first. Yes, I think that's the thing, that it's been conditioned from previous generation, that the kids come first and we protect them. But then it's actually not teaching them the skills they're going to need when they're older. And that your parents are people too. And they have their own wants and needs and passions and interests that might not necessarily align with yours. And it's just yeah, it's modeling good boundary setting and the family as a cohesive unit. So we're going on a holiday for Christmas. And, you know, we each get to decide for a day what we want to do, rather than just doing stuff for the kids, because, you know, yeah, so because then it's like you're even on holiday, you're just taking your children on holiday. Yeah, I think that's the thing too, like so many times, you there's a difference between never doing anything, it's been I think so many of us are so fearful of being self centered, or self focused or selfish. And that actually, you know, self care and self first isn't bubble baths and this sort of stuff. Yeah, doing the daily things that we don't want to do. But then, you know, modeling that, you know, we all get, we all have to do things like my kids now with their chores. It's so funny. Some days, like, I just don't do this. I'm like, do you think I want to work or cook? Yeah, whatever. Like, left my own devices? Yeah, I'd sit in the backyard and sun or pay with paint or whatever. But you know, it's their life is, you know, 5050 or whatever balance it is. Yeah, you know, if we all do it, we all follow the washing or whatever, then we can go and play a game. But if it's left to mom, then you know, yeah, yeah, I love that my wonderful one. Boy can't be I don't, I'm so tired. I don't want to go to school. I said, mate, I'm tired. I don't want to go to work. But, you know, this is what we do. It's life. You know. That example of the holiday, we went to Queensland recently, and we did the same thing. We all wrote down a list of all things we wanted to do. The some of the things were aligned. So that was fine. Those days sort of suited a few people. But I desperately wanted to go away or watching and I was going to do that. No matter if no one came with me or everyone came with me. I didn't care. But in the end, we all booked a ticket. And unfortunately, my eldest son was too unwell to go. So my husband stayed with him. So I took the little taco. And he was good for a while until he just decided I just don't wanna do this anymore. And I'm like, we're in a boat in the ocean. Where would you like to go sort of thing. And I was getting pretty impatient. Because this was my thing. I was like, pumped to see these whales, and we'd already seen a few whales. So I think he was like, over the whole thing. He wanted to sit inside and I said, if we sit inside, we won't see them. And I said to him, I have waited to see these whales. I'm going to go and stand out there. And it was just, I mean, I could say, I'm just going to send out there. I'm going to look at these whales. And he huffed and puffed and he said, Well, I'm going inside. So I stood out there, took photos of the whales, and he went inside. We told this lady, this old lady that we've never met, Mom and I are having a disagreement. Dr. Leakey and I came back. I gave it five minutes. I thought I probably shouldn't even too long. But damn it, I would say my wife. And I thought we can't go anywhere. I'm not going to lose him. So I went back in and the lady said, Oh, you've got such a lovely boys come over and told me that you're having a disagreement. Thanks, Digby for sharing. But I was like, there was no, that was not the time for you to get your own way. dB. This was my thing. You know, I was letting that go. Yes. And I think sometimes to you, when we do give in and you know, put everyone else's needs first. It's another reason that we end up over eating or over shopping or over whatever, because that part of us that you know what's going on I get my way does in a way that's not nourishing for anyone. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it's good for you. I think that's the best thing ever. I think of a few times my kids have, but I love it like on a boat. Yeah, you know, like, you're stuck here. Honestly, they went through my mind I thought, am I being a bad mother because I'm letting my kid wandered around on a boat. And I honestly, it all flashed, I thought someone's gonna think I'm bad because I've left Makita on my own. I thought, No, dammit, he's fine. He's absolutely fine. I can see him. He's safe. I mean, I couldn't see him when I was looking at the whales. But I thought what's the worst that could happen? On here? No, he's not going to jump off the boat. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, too. It's our own inner talk or our own guilt. Yeah, some people might have thought you're a bad mother. And some people would have thought Look at that. Yes, yeah, that's what I want. And then the end of it, I thought, damn it, I've come this far. I'm glad you brought up guilt, because that is a big topic that I love to talk about this whole mom guilt concept. What are your thoughts about that? Though, very significantly, because I think it's something that we can't escape we all have. But it's just like for me, you know, when it happens, it's interesting. So like, you can say something to your kid and be like, I shouldn't have said that. And apologize. I'm all for apologizing when I'm wrong. Not as a way like, whatever. But like, you know, I shouldn't have said that. I feel bad. And then the kids can move on their merry way and skipping and happy. And, and it's I'm the one. So what's that saying that? Pain is inevitable. But suffering is optional. So the pain of like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, like, you know, but then the suffering and the stuff that we tell ourselves. So I can think of examples of like, when my son has hurt himself, like he's fallen over or whatever it happens. But then I'm like, well, I should have been watching him or I shouldn't have the room arranged like that, or it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And then if I want to go to the other extreme, and I know I'm not the only one who does is a couple of 100 share this. But anyway, it's kind of like, Wolf, I really was. I'm not a bad mother, because at least I'm like, not burning them with cigarette butts or something like that. But like, it's sometimes like, yeah, if you really were a bad mother, would you be questioning? Am I a bad mother? Like, yeah, I think, yeah, you know, we all doing the best we can with what we have. And there are moments where we yell, or say something that we later like, makes us cringe. Like, you know, I open my mouth and my own mother comes. Like, I'm never gonna do this. And then you do it. You're like, Oh, yeah. And it's just kind of like, it's, yeah, it's all the skills, we want them to learn humility, you know, apologizing, being honest, sharing our feelings and not putting our stuff onto our kids. But yeah, kind of like, you know, so it's interesting. I I'm very strict in some people's rules, when I go out with my children. And I have a one warning policy. And I hold it. So we've literally gone out to dinner before ordered, and left, even though I've paid like, because the restaurants not missing out. And the kids think that they can get away with it. Because I've already paid like, No, we will leave we've left the cinema before. And it's like, I'm disappointed too. I wanted to watch this. But I would rather like take it to learn this. And anyway, some days, I'm just like, I've got nothing. So I'll be like, this is a no warning kind of day. Yes, you can go to the park or yes, we can do this, but everything is gonna go swimmingly. Or we will go home as soon as you poke prod breathe into the air. I don't know. It's like, I mean, it's just being honest with where I'm at. And also upholding that, because I think I know, my sister. She never she's like, I don't understand why my kids are so good because her kids are. Well, it's funny. She was just here this morning. Her kids are now in the 20s. And it because our age gap. But anyway, when I said if you clean your room, we can go the movies or whatever. If they didn't clean their room, we wouldn't go as as my own parent now my own children. It's like making sure I choose that not punishment, but the consequence. That's not going to be a detriment to me, because I remember a few weeks back, I was like, okay, no electronics for a week. And I was like, this was not a great idea because so it's picking up thing that but also to something because like if I sent my daughter to her room, she'd love it. Yes, like me, whereas my son, that's a punishment. He's like, I need to be around people. So it's kind of like, yes, it's gonna happen. Yes, we learn from it. And whenever we need to, like break that pattern so for me, for me, it's the cigarette butts story. It's not my finest moment, but it's just, it's just enough of ridiculousness for me to go Of course, yeah. In some out of it. That's viral. Yeah. And like you said, the mere fact that you that we are questioning if we're good enough, that's telling us that we're not good enough, you know, because we care because we're aware of stuff. Done and again, I just have all these thoughts, and I brought them down, then it's gone. All right, understand you're in the other thing I was gonna say that helps me with mum guilt, or any sort of guilt or times that I feel not enough yet, is I have a folder on my phone. It's called nice things. People say, whenever I get an email, or a text or a comment or whatever, I screenshot it, and I go and save it to that album. And when I'm having those things where I'm like, I'm the worst person in the world. And everyone hates me, because we all have that. I read back over it on my phone. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. I'm getting really used to the fact that mothering is not right or wrong, black or white? Yes or no, there's this this gray area, it's literally an entire gray area and this level of ambivalence of, yes, you can have a bad day and and yell at your kids because they misbehaved. But you can also love them so much, you would you know, throw yourself in front of a moving car for them like that. And I think some people depending with the, you know, left brain or right brain, how you your brain works need to have a yes or no, they need to have a straight answer. They need to know, was this right or wrong? And this whole motherhood conundrum just throws that completely out the window. So then I think for some people, it can be confusing. If you are and I've put this in air quotes, doing it right, from your own perspective, because there are so many gray areas. For me, there's something that another thing I think, is I always love my children without a doubt. I don't always like them. Yeah. So it's like, you know, I if something happens, like I love you, fiercely. I don't like this. So it's it's separating like the love is always, as he said, jump in front of a bus or take on a intruder or whatever. Yeah, you're not drawing on my walls. Okay, how pretty it is? No. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good one, actually. Because my background is in early childhood education. And something that I learned straight away when I started working at this particular center, about nine years ago was that we wouldn't use terms like you're a good boy, or, you know, you're being bad or whatever. Because it's the behavior that you're not happy with, not the person. Yeah. And I've been really, really, what's the word focused, or it's important to me that I talk to my kids like that, in terms of their friendships. Because there's a whole thing of kids of a certain age, I'm not your best friend, I don't like you're not my best friend, you're not coming to my birthday party, all this sort of behavior? Yeah. And it's like, yes, you you were frustrated with your mate is because he keeps your ball on the roof, it then doesn't mean that you're not friends, you know, just breaking things down separating an actual person to the behavior that you don't like, or, you know, I think that's really important to set up because that's not something I grew up with normally changing that, that thing is the way we speak to ourselves, too. And, you know, because the thing is, you can't be what you don't see. So it's like modeling it for you for your children. So my son, he sees a psychologist, he has autism. And they he calls her his emotions, doctor, which Oh, that's good. And she works a lot with him with how he speaks to himself, because he's got a very critical inner voice and anything that I think it's part of his autism to, doesn't take a joke. So like I'm very, very jovial and can take a stab, but I don't mean it, but he will take it to heart. Yeah. And it's the way he speaks to himself in any way I have. I use a Voxer voice messaging app for my business. And the other day, someone left me a message and most of the time I can listen to them in front of the kids and it's not a big deal or I don't actually I usually have my headphones, but I couldn't find him anyway, whatever happened, I press play. And the person's like, Oh, I'm such a dick. Like the message, you know, he was like, why would they talk to them about themselves like that? And I was like, see, we all do we all have our ways that I'm not good enough, or, you know, this is wrong, or I'm bad. And then it's catching that. And, you know, so it was actually such a great learning experience. I don't know, I told the person about and like, I've always wanted to be the reason somebody needed to laugh about it. But it's just kind of like our inner talk, like, you know, and distinguishing. Like, I, I made a bad decision. Not I'm a bad person. Yeah, the thing is, the message was that we're supposed to message me like two weeks ago, and I hadn't, so I've had to deconstruct sorry. And it was like, you know, life happens. I get it. But it was like, you know, I did a dick move or IV is not I am so yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing that self taught because Matt and I, we, we tend to beat ourselves up so much, and talk to ourselves, the way that we'd never speak to anybody else. You know, we're so so harsh and horrible to ourselves. A lot of the time. Yeah. And then who wants to hang out with somebody like that, and then we're stuck with ourselves all the time. So no wonder we end up in you know, behaviors that don't serve us because at least gives us a break or numbs it out for a short period of time. Yeah, that's so true. My website is Susanne kohlberg.com, which you'll probably spell in the show notes. Because it's an interesting I think I've ever had anybody get Kolberg. Right. Again, anything from Collberg to gold. It's about to be updated. I don't know when this show will end. So if you guys come across it as not quite yet, just put your email in there. And I'll let you know. I've been rebranding, it's been such a process, I tend to really significantly underestimate the amount of time things will take person who works long term on goals, but anywho. And it's got all about my program on there, it has the first two chapters of my book, if you do sign up for the first two chapters of my book, it doesn't automatically add you to my list. It's one of my pet peeves, so I can never get away from it because I just wanted a freebie. So it literally is just the two chapters, I send two emails, and the podcasts I've been on if you wanna listen to me anywhere else, and all that kind of thing. But my program, it's, it's 10 weeks, it's called Why wait visiting, what are you waiting for. And it's for people who are overdue us over consumers to kind of overcome our inner resistances and our all or nothing mindset and take small sustainable changes, and it runs for 10 weeks at a time. If you do at once, then you're an alumni and you get a significantly discount if you want to come back some people in my life is we come back every round, some people dropping once a year, it's you're always welcome. And it's about showing up as you actually are, there's none of this kind of pretense or whatever you can wear your pajamas, I really don't mind. Just kind of like what's actually going on, and a space to be seen and heard and witnessed. And then, you know, work through it if you want to, or just be seen because so many of us, we don't have a place where we can say what really happened. We have like the highlight role, which is Facebook or Instagram. And it's just yet about breaking these really big goals down into small ones. And, and starting out and celebrating the things we celebrate. And why won't you be humiliated to say anywhere else because it's just so small. But it's like, I'm so excited. I walk to my mailbox. Yeah, then that's that competence that's playing warm up with the universe and then that building excitement of others, rather than just kind of ho hum, I've missed my work like that. So it's about learning to witness the times that we're in struggle and struggle of others not wallow in them. Hmm. That's very important, isn't it? Like you said before about you know, we can choose to suffer or not? Yeah, pain is inevitable stuff. Stuff. Thumbs up. Like, it's interesting, every round, it's finishing now, but towards the end, we say like, you know, I have a list of things, how many of these come up that you weren't expecting? And because so often people will be like, I thought this would be the time I thought this would be the thing. And it was like, somebody's passed away. Somebody had COVID, somebody's moved, somebody's lost a job like all these stressor indicators. And then we're like beating ourselves up. And it's like, still in the room. Accounts. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Like that deserves acknowledgement and celebration. 100%. Yeah. Because I think as a society, as this capitalism come up again, but it's like, you have to meet some incredible goal, some massive thing, and then you're worthy of being celebrated. Yeah, and every quarter is going to be better than the last quarter. And that's the thing to like, because a lot of people do come back round after round for my program, and like this round might not have been a growth round. So I taught I teach it in seasons. So we start in an artificial spring, because obviously, a we're from all over the world. So some of us it is spring, and some of us isn't. But also it's the seeds. It's the planting, it's the initiation, a lot of us, especially your daughters, were really good at Spring. This is gonna be the thing. Oh, yeah. And then we move into the summer, which is the persistent and consistent action. A lot of yo yo dieters at all, and I think people were terrible at summer. This is where we go away, then we go into the autumn or fall, depending on where you are in the globe, which is the harvest of what have we done this round. And then the winter, a lot of people are really good at winter. So spring, winter, spring, winter, spring, winter, and it's like the break either between rounds or you know, a longer break the time for rejuvenation. And because we need to prune in order to grow in a capitalist linear society. We fear winter, because it's the end, like then it's over. Yeah. Whereas in a cyclical natural rhythm after every winter comes the next spring. Yeah. And I think with the power of the program, and the people who are coming back, you know, you can see like, some of it is disappointing. Sometimes you have around where everything's happening, and you're making so much progress. And other rounds, you feel like you just keep your head above water. And as a facilitator, I get it out. Because I teach the program live every time none of its pre recorded. It's like, what's going on for me shapes that as well as what's going on for the people in the container? And I think there's some power in that rather than us just pretending that everything's hunky dory all tile here. Absolutely. I was just this, this whole issue of, of being transparent and honest and sharing. When things are going bad. This is a thing that I feel like there's a movement happening. You know, and you talked about the socials where everyone just puts their highlight reel and people like, you know, people that are capable of it, I guess I able to share when things aren't going well. And then other people say that and go, ah, that makes it okay for me to say that this is normal, you know, it normalizes life. I think the big work of like, my life's work on my passion is teaching people and modeling how to sit with people when things aren't going well. Like, the first time someone told me I was a space holder. I was like, What is this space blank, and I was thinking about the hospital, bear hug up. And it's like, we aren't taught how to sit with people in their discomfort. We either taught to fix it, which is very masculine thing, what can I do? Have you tried? Have you tried keto? Have you tried paleo? Have you tried, which is like really frustrating. Or we're told to diminish? It's not that bad. It's not that bad. And people have it worse. actually sit with someone who's having a hard time and just listen. Yeah, it's the most powerful thing or normalize like, of course, this happens happens to everyone. I think, you know, the inner talk thing with my son, like he explained to him and normalizing we do all speak to ourselves in ways you know, but it's like having tools or things or just noticing it the power of noticing, rather than eating like that. For me, that's been the hardest thing becoming a mother. When my kids are struggling. I just want to throw food at them. Because that's what was done to me when I was a kid. Yeah, exactly. Same, same. Yes. Like food and alcohol were the common threads through every situation, you know? Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? But yeah, that I'm noticing a lot of posts lately about toxic positivity about calling out that behavior to say, Oh, well, at least you You should be grateful of this and blah, blah, and just that diminishes the actual problem, or the issue just skirts over it by making you feel happy. Like you know, and you complain about your kids are where you should, you know, you should be glad that you can have children. That's like that's not a helpful thing to say. No, it actually I think that that toxic positivity really increases mental struggles and depression, anxiety, because you don't have anyone to speak to. And people think that being helpful, but it's like struggle isn't a competition. Yeah. And then who do you turn to because the thing is, like, I was very fortunate that I didn't have any struggle conceiving. And it's like, oh, I can't talk about that because other people do it. But there's other things that I had struggle with that other people don't. And it's not like a tit for tat thing like, oh, well, I can't you know, it's just kind of like, that sucks. And all that's awesome. Because sometimes when you get what you want, like we were talking way back at the beginning, if this then that. So you were saying your once this, sometimes once you achieve the thing, it's not what you thought, and then you can't like so I dropped 78 kilograms. So like an entire person off my body. Yeah, the number of people who tell me how I must feel You must be confident you must be this, you must be this. And it's like, honestly, it was hard because I didn't have an identity like this. And people didn't recognize me. And I didn't recognize myself. And when nobody wants to hear that. They just want to life's perfect and you're confident. That's it. That's the headline, isn't it? That's click on on the internet, they don't click on woman loses 78 kilos and doesn't feel this way. Like, it's, that's not that's not what society is built to see here. You don't burst the bubble. And it's like, I think we should be bursting more bubbles and not. So it's not saying you don't do the thing. It's just that we don't set ourselves up. I think that's the reason so many of us want to avoid being disappointed. So we kind of live our life preemptively disappointed. But then there's other things like there's always going to be new problems. Like once you reach this goal, there's going to be another goal. So it's focusing on how much you've gained and how far you've come. But realizing there's always going to be a gap. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I feel like we could talk forever about this. So often not spoken off, because it's kind of you know, like, I remember when I first started coaching, I coached for an organization, they wouldn't put me on their website, because I wouldn't have my makeup done. Like, I'm always like, you know, Mumba. And this is how I am, this is who I am. And it's like, well, nobody wants to see that they want to see, you know, the after, like, you know, the fancy clothes and the makeup and hair. It's like, they don't get around like that. Like, for me, it's funny, if I see someone all done, and then I get a call with them. And you know, it's like, this is it as interesting. My first iteration of my website, it was Sue's professional. I didn't do full makeup or whatever. But I wore like nicer clothes. And I had my head straightened. But I don't look like that. So this part of my website, I showed my current clients and like what we love is you've got the ridiculous T shirts, and you haven't done your hair. Yeah, cuz that's how I am. We think, Oh, I can't go out like that. I can't be seen like that. And we kind of almost living two lives. And it's like, no, no, this, this is how I am but and then there's also with the kids like teaching them when it's appropriate to say certain things like I'm very much just very fairy, I will own that. And in the house. I don't mind so much if my kids do a little bit but in public never. And it's funny my books called the beginning you shit. And my son will either say the beginning is bad word. Or the beginning is sure. He knows as big it's kind of like, there's so much awareness there. And I remember at the therapy session thing will pint we play cards at the end and I get to come in, because we're teaching him about turn taking and whatever. And we've got this game called uno flip it. Oh, yeah, one year. Anyway, sometimes at home, I'll say let's flip this bid sheet. And pass music to the data therapist. My mommy says let's flip this bad word that starts with a beat I just think there's something about the realness as opposed to like I know growing up, it was like, This is who we are. Like when we go to church, my family's religious, or when we go here, and this is who we are at home. And I just didn't understand that. Whereas with my kids I explain you know, there are things that are allowable in the house of words, and these but not to be different. But to just be mindful of others. Yeah, that's it. Isn't it that respectful of others and other people's boundaries? I suppose. And yeah, that's good. Well, I do love playing that flip it sometimes I get confused. Because some of the things aren't really clear if it means it's going to flip Well, this summer. This one took me a while to work around the world one in five, nothing nasty, because we make it compound. So like for us one time and recently I did pick up 25 cards. Oh my goodness. I feel like we've got the core of the decade now, but he's a good guy. I really like that one. All right, well, have you got anything else you'd like to share? Sort of finishing up any sort of final thoughts that you'd like to tell everyone? For people, it's kind of you can listen to a podcast or read a book or whatever, and separate yourself into you know, me and them or I'm different because or things like that. And I encourage anybody who's listening it If that's the case for you, to look at how we're the same with the hotter and colder game of the universe, when we look at, well, she has two kids and I have four. Well, she lives here and I live, there we are, where we're making the distance greater. And it's kind of like when we look for, you know how we're similar, like, oh, wow, she was on her first diet at four, I went on my eighth or, you know, she lost and regained, like hundreds of kilos. I've done that, too. So, why not me is what I've been encouraging anybody listening to think, because we can think why me all the reasons I couldn't do this. But why not you? And I just, I really hope that that that really lands or resonates with someone because I know for me, for years, I'd be listening and reading and like I was obsessed with before and after stories, when I was losing weight, hence why I never found one like mine. They were always before my life was terrible, after my life is magical. And it was kind of like this Disney Princess story. Yeah. And I was like, whereas I felt more like the Disney movie that had multiple sequels. Something bad happened again, next book. And it's just kind of like, you know, this is life. And then also to, even within people being honest and transparent. There's the selectivity about about what we share, because sometimes to people like, oh, well, despite them having all this going on, you know, they've still had it or they've still gotten there. We all have our our dark moments are the moments that you know, we wouldn't share. And it's not that they disappear. It's that we know how to move through them. Or they go through them faster. Luckily, I still gone slammed entire packet, Tim Tams not proud of it. But less often or less amount, or I catch myself and go. This is really solving it. No, yeah. So those moments of awareness, it's, it reminds me of that. There's this model about how we learn. And it's like unconscious. Whatever, like you don't know that you don't know. So like my son. He didn't know he didn't know how to drive a car, because it wasn't his frame of reference. Yeah. And there was conscious not knowing. So like, my daughter's like, I don't know how to drive a car. And I want to. So sometimes when we go from Yeah, unconscious incompetence, to conscious incompetence. So when you first start making these changes, it's often harder, because you're aware. And that's when we can stop and quit and start and stop and whatever. But when you get through that, then you get to the conscious competence. But you have to think about it until you get to the unconscious competence, where you just do it. So like recently, I watched that. The other reason why Facebook memories instead, it comes back up my first Facebook Live. Oh my gosh, it's so bad. So often people take that stuff down. I leave it there because I watch it. And I'm like how far I've come. Yeah, literally breathe into a paper bag for nearly an hour beforehand. I couldn't go on without my own. So I had one of my kids in it. It was just, I had the dot points on the screen. And one of my friends was just like, you sound like you got to pull up your ass. But you know, it gets better. Your best gets to get better. But you've got to start to wear someone else's. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Absolutely. Because we're all in different little ways. In long the journey. You know, we're different seasons. Nobody's ahead of you. You're not behind. You're just in a different season. Yeah. Now that I love that analogy. That's really, really cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on Suzanne so much for having me. It's been such a lovely chat. And it's a pleasure to meet you. And I'm thank you for doing the work you're doing and sharing what your experiences and I'm sure it's helping. It's helping people and it will continue to do so. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rebecca Smith Australian content creator and brand ambassador S1 Ep20 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rebecca Smith is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of NSW and a mum of twin boys. ​ Rebecca has a background as a copy writer, writing for Mindful Parenting Magazine and freelance model , and started her personal blog @ThatAchellesGir l (pronounced: A-KILL-EES) on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. ​ We chat about how becoming a mother lead to her current work role, the need for mums to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it, and why she is an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. ​ ** This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety ** ​ Rebecca's website and instagram Read more about Monti and Me toys Find out more about LifeBoat SE and Alison's podcast ​ .Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo- https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle, mental health and how children manifest in there. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music play, and a link to buy the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with the art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is reported on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with their lending, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thanks for your company today. My guest today is Rebecca. Rebecca is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of New South Wales and a mom of two printing. Rebecca has a background as a copywriter, writing for magazines such as mindful parenting, and has worked as a freelance model. She started her personal blog, that Achilles girl on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. Today, we chat about how becoming a mother led to your current work role. The need for moms to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it. And why she's an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. So today, I'd love to welcome Rebecca Smith to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on, Rebecca. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to chat. So I've been following you on Instagram. That's where I first came across you on Instagram, at that Achilli scale is the name of your site. So is there a bit of a story how you came up with that Achilles girl? Is that like, is there a story that you're saying it probably that's so music to my ears? Yeah, so Achilles is my maiden name. So I started doing all the work that I've been doing years before I got married, obviously. And I just kept that Achilles girl, as my instagram name, for two reasons. One was I just wanted to continue, I didn't want to lose all the work that I'd done. So I figured if I changed my name to that Smith Bell, who's that I had to start all over again, with all the stuff that I'd written online for publications, like I'd have no Google anymore, like, you know, history. And also, I did go to checks I felt guilty about not when I got married, I did become Smith. I took my husband's last name, but then I felt guilty for not using it on social media or all that crap. And some of our friends would say, I use Smith or Achilles. So I did go and check is that Smith girl available and it was not so even if I wanted to change it. I couldn't have so I just kept going with that Achilles girl. Yeah, yeah, she's just my family name. Yeah. And it's a memorable name, too. Like that Achilles girl, like you sort of, you know, sticks in people's minds, too. It's a good, good. Well, yeah, yeah, I hope so. I don't know. It's more it just feels like it's me. Whereas that Smith girl is a new Smith is a new identity for me. It doesn't feel like me. So, yeah, that's where the name came from. Anyway. Yeah, for sure. So, on your Instagram, you sort of brand yourself as a content creator, a brand ambassador. You haven't been doing that forever. What did you sort of start off with? Yeah, so I started off with creative writing and copywriting so copywriting is like a form of advertising and marketing. You know, copywriters, they they write thing not everyone knows it's not anything to do with legal stuff. Like copyright law. It's actually a form of writing that encourages someone to buy a product or booking your service. So it's salesy. I mean, that's like, that you might hear on Yeah. Yachty Yes. Yeah, I did a little website copy. So I started my own business as a copywriter while I was working as a PA for like a criminal lawyer. So I did both jobs for a long time. And I loved copywriting and then basically, to summarize what happened, I got pregnant, and was I had really severe fatigue. So I couldn't really just do anything and couldn't make my brain work. I just decided to just throw in the towel and relax and enjoy being pregnant. So I stopped Everything for a couple of years. And then it wasn't till I came back. After giving birth and becoming a mother that I tried copywriting again, it still didn't really my brain was just not there. I couldn't get myself to write like I used to. And that's when I went into content creation. Yeah, right. So like social media. Yeah. It's interesting. You talk about that sort of brain fog. That's a big thing is when you're pregnant, it's like the baby's supposed to suck out. Part of your Yeah, you're cognitively, not only not only when I was pregnant, but then after I gave birth, it's still lingered with me and only lifted lack. When we started sleeping properly, again, and the boys, our boys didn't really start sleeping properly until they were two and a half. Yeah. So now I feel like I'm getting my brain back a little bit. But it's crazy how much sleep deprivation affects everything. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I remember when I had had my first and someone made a joke that remember, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. That's where all my problems started. Honestly, the sleep deprivation. decline from there on once once I realized we weren't sleep, like gonna get any more sleep so you have twin boys, yes, be full on job. They're very full on. So they're turning three next month. So they arrived like a couple days before Christmas. So they're almost three. In a lot of ways, it's easier now that they are toddlers, and they're speaking a little bit. They can get snacks for themselves, you know, I found the newborn stage really hard. So I'm really loving the toddler stage, actually. But they still Yeah, they're just really high energy, really high energy and want your attention all the time. So it's, I find it very difficult to sort of try to get any work done. If I'm home alone with them, I pretty much just have to give up on getting anything done, which I really struggled with for a long time. Yeah. So in a practical sense, how do you manage your day to day trying to achieve what you want to achieve with your worksite? Yeah, well, I just make sure that I save my work for the middle of the day, when I know they're going to have about a two hour sleep. I actually work first thing in the morning at like 5:36am for an hour while my husband is home, and I'll have a coffee and I'll be in bed doing whatever emails or something just for an hour and then I wait until midday and do some more two hour in the two hour window. That's just pretty much how I do it. I've got two jobs. So one I need to be out of the house. And I'm you know what I mean? I'm not actually it's not a freelance job. I work in the salon doing beauty services twice a week. So you know, that's easy. My kids are either at daycare or with my parents, so they're not there. But the other freelancing stuff like content creation with brands, it is pretty tricky to there's so many things I want to do and I have to remind myself to you know, go slow and also not ignore the kids make sure that I'm spending quality time with them and stuff like that. So for that it's mostly when my husband's home or when they're napping any little minute I get I just sort of Yeah, I work actually. Try not great. You do you do what works you do you do what works. You touched on briefly there. Sort of I guess the the shift in identity from being able to do the things how you wanted whenever you wanted and then you've got these two little children and how to sort of adjust your thinking I suppose of this new life that you had. Yeah, how did you sort of approach that that change in identity? Not very elegantly, I found it really, really difficult. And I think because we had the twins it was like even more of an adjustment like it's not just one baby that you need someone to help you look after it's two seni two adults I'm still I honestly to this day, I still struggle with trying to work it out. And this is my new life and I just have to like, you know, do both but I'm very adamant to make it work to do both. I got as in I don't think that I would be happy being a stay at home mom, because I often think to myself like Even last week when I get really anxious if I'm really busy, and I go along, and I think, look, you can stop anytime No one's forcing you to do all this work. But then I think, well, I don't want to be a stay at home mom, I like having projects I like I like, you know, having that side of my life. So it's just a matter of taking the anxious days when they come and trying to be patient with myself and moving my work to another day, if it's all just not working out. It's yeah, I still sort of, I still struggle with it today, basically. Okay, you're not the only one that's that's a really common theme that comes up in these chats is that, and mums, I think it's so important to not forget that mums are still an actual person, we're not just a mum that exists just for children. So yeah, a lot of mums talk about having something that they need for themselves to keep themselves you know, fill up your cup and make yourself feel really fulfilled and excited about doing something for yourself. And then that sort of thing, obviously, helps you then go on with the other part of your life. Feeling, you know, feeling good about yourself, I suppose. If that makes sense. We'll say yes. Say my mom always told me. She didn't make time for herself. She didn't insist that she wanted to return to work when me and my brother were toddlers, my dad and her had an arrangement that she would be a stay at home mom and just focus on us kids. And my mom said to me later, when I was going through all this with my kids, I said to I just can't Mom, I'm like, I feel bad that I can't be a stay at home mom, but I just can't. I want to do the things that I want to do. And she said, You know, I support you because I really wish I'd done that. And that was really, I think she probably doesn't even remember that she said it to me. But it was it. I remembered it. And it was really special. That she did say that to me. And it made me feel better. And I thought it's not weird that I it's not weird that I want these things. And I you know, because I thought is am I Does anyone else feel like this? Like I no one just sort of bounce off because a lot of my friends were not having babies at the time. So I had to make new friends. Yeah. And then I learned that it was normal. But you know, in the beginning, I was just like, wow, what is this? Yeah, that's the thing. No one sort of sets you up in, you know, you do your prenatal class, and you learn all about baby stuff. But you never know and actually says to you, this is what you'll do. And this is normal. And you know, yeah, yes. You mentioned you, Mama, do you have people close by you to be able to help with the boys so that you can, you know, have some time to yourself? Yes, I do. I literally have my entire family helping me and my husband. And we're so lucky. I've got his parents that help every week, my parents and then my husband also is he's really good with the boys. He's super patient. He's like a swim teacher. So he, he's around kids all day, every day, you know what I mean? So it was less of a shock for him than me was never around children. So he's patient and he knows what to do when they tantrum and scream and he's just great. And he always wants to help me. You know, he does things he would get up in the night and bottle feed one twin while I said the other one, you know, when he still had to go to work the next day and stuff and didn't complain about it. So everyone helps me. Really lucky. That's yeah, that is so good. Yeah, yeah. I have a couple of friends who are like from the UK and they just have no family here. And no help. And I just think Well, I don't know how they do it. Yeah, honestly, I I'm the same as you. I've got my family. Sort of Yeah, you do. And I yeah, my mum. She moved from Melbourne to Matt Gambia. We're in this little town halfway between Adelaide, Melbourne. She moved over here, and had no one knew nobody apart from my dad, and then had these two children as a How the hell did you do that? Yeah, I take it for granted, I think because they're here that they're always able to help. But I think my goodness, you know, I take my hat off to people that that don't have help. Because that's, you know, yeah, it's important for the kids too, though. Like they it's nice for them to grow up with. You know, it helps you as the mom but it's nice for them to have, you know, other people around as well that they know, love them and are there for them. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a big it's a big commitment to help with grandkids and things I guess for some people but it's also a pleasure. So on both sides. Oh yeah. And it's interesting to see to see your own parents in this completely different relationship with the child. Totally. I don't even it funny. Yeah, treat like my dad especially. It's like who is this man? He's not. He wouldn't talk to me like that. Like he's just this different. Yeah, until the soft side comes out. Yeah, I mean saying that my dad always says I he's never changed and happy of me and my brother I don't think and then he will not change my son's either. I think he would get a hose out if he had to do anything when my mom wasn't there he's just hopeless with vomiting poo anything like that? Runny nose. least he knows his limitations. And you know he's prepared. Yeah. And with it. Do you agree entertainer? Switching back to the identity topic we were talking about when you were pregnant? Did you sort of have that in your mind? Like you were thinking at all? How life was going to change? Like Were you conscious of? I mean, I guess no one prepares you when it's different when the babies come out. But did you sort of start to think anything about you know what, how your life would be, or I totally pictured one thing. And I we decided to serve as my partner like 10 years. We got married when we were six or seven years into dating or something. And so it wasn't until we were married that I thought okay, yeah, I think we, I think I'd like to have a baby. And then so I pictured One thing, though. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean? To me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how's my how's my body going to change with two it was I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins and I think that now and I love their bond and I love being twin moms. But I didn't. You know I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant. Actually, once I found out. Look, that's understandable. I'd be exactly the same. So we've got we've got twin, my husband's family's got twins. His dad's okay. And then his brother had twins. So I was like, Oh, sweetie, but Yeah, same thing. Of course. In the end, I would have been, you know, delighted to have my children. But if Yeah, you have that that is that anxiety like, oh my gosh, like, I guess you're thinking how am I going to manage? You know, what's it going to be like? Double the work? And of course already, how's your body going to, you know, manage having two babies? Like it's huge. Yeah. It Yeah, it Yeah, it was really I had to get used to it. But I remember when we were having the scanned on the eight week mark and she said that there's two heartbeats. I like was trying really hard to not cry because I was so upset and my husband was like laughing and clapping his hands and he was so excited. And I was just thinking like, Oh, what are you excited about? But at the same time, I thought maybe this is okay. Because he's excited it would have been terrible if he was you know, reacting like I was so I'm very glad looking back that he was very positive about it. Because I was freaking out. Oh, my goodness. Talking about body and you do like modeling with for your brand work that you do now? Is that right? I do now? Yeah, I do now, but that's a new thing. I guess when I was a teen like 16. I did model and I was with an agency and I modeled for a few years. But I left the industry because I was very, I had really bad shyness and I wasn't very confident. My mom suggested I try modeling and sort of put me out there and I did work but I would just be so anxious and I did not like it if I left and I've only sort of found that confidence. Now that I'm like, nearly 30, so I'm happy to do it, but I'm only doing it on my own terms. So I don't I you know, I work with a photographer who is my contact and I know him and we work together for brands and I pick what I do. I don't do swimwear, I don't do laundry. You know what I mean? I do things that I find fun and they're gonna make me stressy or, yeah, that are not too out of my comfort zone. Yeah, for sure. The concept of mum guilt is something that I love to talk to my guests about too, is this whole idea. And, and it does tie in a fair bit with identity. But yeah, how do you feel about this? This mum guilt term and how it makes us feel, I suppose. Yes. I actually, I wrote an article on this. I used to write for mindful parenting magazine, you know, love at love. It's media. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. And I wrote an article about having mum guilt, but doing something anyway, that I had to guilt about. And it was basically you know, I, to answer your question, I do experience it all the time. And this particular time, our twins were teething, and they were just waking every hour overnight, and we had not slept for, I think, like, two weeks straight. And I was just like, on the verge of break down like I was, you know what I mean? You know, when you're so tired, it's just like, I can't do anything anymore. I need to just go. So I said to my husband, like, this is how I'm feeling he knew I had postnatal depression and anxiety at the time. So he was very supportive with helping me. And I know that he would have been exhausted too. And I had to just say to him, like, I know that you're tired. And I'm sorry to ask, but I need to just go sleep somewhere else for just one night. And I said, when I get back, you can go and do the same thing. But can I just go and I need to go now. And he was just like, yep. And so yeah, I wrote this article. It was, it was funny, though, like, I tried to make a lot hot, like, you know, a lot of it and I ordered a pizza and I had a bath and put my feet up and ate pizza in the bath. At this Airbnb that I stayed at, like, only 10 minutes away from our house. And just sort of in trying to encourage other mums to ask for help if you are experiencing something like that, and not feel guilty about it, but everyone does. So it's it's a constant thing. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think that the thing you say about how you feel it, but you do it anyway, I think that's really important. Because we are allowed to feel emotions, you're allowed to feel we are allowed to feel guilt. But yeah, unless it's something, you know, really bad. Why should we let that stop you from doing so if it's something like I feel bad about working and not being at home with my kids, or I feel bad about going and having a night away? Because I'm so sleep deprived? It's like, you've got to tell yourself, yes, but doing that? Well, I knew at the time, I'm going to come back as a better mother to be able to focus on my kids, if I can have a night off or, for me, I'm like, I'd be way happier way, way more present parent, if I can have my two, three days a week working. And, you know, focus on new kids the other days. So you know, things like that. You just got to have a little pep talk with yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And if it is really bad, you wouldn't do it anyway. Because you know that that maternal instinct is so strong, you know? Exactly, you know, it's not that bad drive down to the bottle shop and get a bottle of wine. Come back, you know, I like stuff like that and you said, as well about encouraging other moms to be able to be honest and open and ask for help. I think that's something that we don't do enough of because, I mean, I know I do. And I'm not sure if this is because I'm overthinker I'm a cancer so I tend to anticipate what other husbands are cancer. Oh, I love kids. Yeah, we're good. We're good sometimes when we're not being moody. Scorpio I'm apparently moody all the time, too. Yeah, right. I know. Everyone says that qualities too. My downfall is I tend to anticipate or make up a story in my mind, of, of what the other person's thinking. So instead of just I Once again, I'll go through this great big thing. Oh, they should know. You know, just Oh, yeah. Instead of just saying, Hey, can you put the kids to bed tonight? Because I really needed an early night, you know, as we would go, Yeah, no worries. And be like, yes. Why did I turn that into such a great thing? You know, we had so many of those arguments. So my husband said to me, I'm not a mind reader. Can you please tell me? Tell me this? Oh, tell me that. And I'd say you should know. And he'd be like, No, but like, I don't I'm sorry, but I don't. So can you just tell me next time? And I was like, office groundbreaking to me, like, ask I mean, sorry to tell you exactly what I'm thinking or I want and I was like, Oh, I can do that. Okay. Yeah. Like I just hadn't. I'd be sitting there like rooting like, oh, like Khan hate. I don't know, whatever it was at the time. Everything's a big deal when you got a newborn and you're tired? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's groundbreaking, isn't it? You can actually open your mouth and ask. I know, that's how I feel. Right? I just, I don't naturally do that. You know, I learned I'm learning to sort of do that more. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a that's a woman thing. I think. I mean, I'm not speaking. I think so too. It's like, you feel like you should be able to do everything you should, you know, you're the mom, you should have everything under control. And you should be able to do it, but and then to ask for help is some sort of sign of weakness. So you don't you just suffer through and get all shitty and, you know, yell at everyone and just keep doing it funny because my mom does the exact same thing with my dad, and my mom will complain to me about this, that or whatever. Every now and then. And I will sit there thinking like, actually say to her now I just, you just got to speak your mind more Mom, you've got to tell him if you don't want there. So you don't want that? Or, you know, and she's just like, oh, yeah, she does exactly what I do. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe this this generation of arrows because we've, we've seen our moms, perhaps be that final generation that doesn't speak their mind doesn't speak up. Maybe. I mean, I'm generalizing again. I know every relationship is different. But you know, the women that that may be, you know, got told that you meant to be a good wife, and you do the right things. You look after the kids and look after your husband, and then you keep everything happy. And an on the live. Yeah, you don't ever question before like 1950s housewife? Yeah, yeah. So maybe, because we're starting to break the mold that will help, you know, the generations coming after us? Well, we're seeing like, we're seeing the aftermath. Okay, that this is what it looks like he is on after you've done what our mothers have done and sort of just, you know, make everything look nice. And just make it comfortable for this, that and the other but not yourself. And yeah, maybe yeah, I don't know. The instead of sacrificing yourself for everyone else's happiness. You're actually Yeah, our lab to say, hey, come and do something. But we have social media too. So like, everyone's screaming about this on social media, and I think other women are reading and watching on going, oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't have social media back then. And wouldn't have known what other women was thinking. Because now we, we we do wherever and so much more connected through that. Absolutely. I mean, that can go both ways to being a positive and, and a drawback. I think, too, and especially with this mum view, I think a lot of the judgment that we place on each other, can manifest itself in that social media, because you're sharing so much of your life. And people are going, oh, oh, she's gone and done this again. Well, who's looking after the kids, you know, or someone might look at and go, oh, good for her. She's gone. And done this again. You know? Yeah, because we say that. Funny you say that? Because I was where was I was somewhere a couple weeks ago with family and some friends were there as well. And we're all having drinks. And they'd had these particular friends and had a few more drinks. And I'd had and so they one of them made a comment, like, I'm talking about how often I make reels on Instagram, and I'm showing up on social media. And like, so how do you, you know, how do you get that? How do you get that done? I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, I thought you were my friend. And really, people are watching what I'm doing and sort of thinking, you must not be a very good mother because you're just, you know, making reels all the time. And you're always on social media. And I'm like, Well, it's my job now. So yeah, I'm sure if you're getting paid to do reels and do you know, show up every day on social media. I'm sure you, you do it too. That's my job. Yeah, but your job is, you know, Office admin or whatever it is you're doing or work In a cafe making coffee like this is my job. Yeah. And I don't know shows that that judgment people, people will make make assumptions about people without actually knowing. You know everything. Yeah. Particularly when you're a mom. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and yeah, you get a tiny glimpse into someone's life through social media and then that can, you can No, no, build a whole idea in your head about what this person's life is like, without knowing anything. So, yeah, that side of things I find interesting. Yes. Certainly the positives, you know, sharing, sharing things like this, you know, when, you know, the topic about, you know, asking for help, you know, if enough people talk about it, it builds on itself. And, you know, people can share, share that just just an example, I suppose, you know, a positive of this social network, I suppose. I like several mum mums sort of personalities on Instagram, who do talk candidly about being a mum and, and nothing, you know, it's not all rosy. And, you know, that makes it like that. It's more relatable. It's not the fake, like, beautiful selfies with your child in a beautiful seat outfit. You know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah, I don't know, I just surround my page with people that I want to follow. I'm very big on, there might be a feed that's really curated and beautiful. But if they sort of aren't being real, and I won't follow them, and I try my best to be real online as well. Yeah. Yeah. Being genuine. goes a long way, I think. And you're actually building a connection, then you're not just, you know, yes. Putting up a shiny pretty trying to model or sell something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think yeah, in this day and age people, people will buy or connect with people who they have some sort of relationship, they feel something about someone. Totally, whereas, you know, my dad would go to the person with the best price. So you know, that sort of thing. But I think now so with my dad. Yeah. Yeah, different. Yeah. So that's Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to link that into, I guess, your the work that you're doing. So do you sort of do you kind of vet the people you're going to work with to make sure they're, they're the right fit for you. You're there. Does that make sense afterwards? I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah. 100%, I have had a couple of people who I feel just maybe when I was new I and my prices were quite reasonable. I feel like they were just trying to squeeze every, you know, worth, you know, every cent worth out of me and want a million things in return demanding. And you can sort of, you can sort of see now pick and choose who you want to work with, on their vibe, because we have like zoom meetings with businesses before we start working with them to ask what they want. And so you can it's like a half an hour chat, but you can sort of see what kind of person they are through that chat. And I also like to I don't like to work for like fast fashion brands, I prefer to work for designers who have actually, you know, Australian designers who put their heart and soul into the designs and like this one I'm wearing, you know, that's a local designer, and she designs all of these herself in Australia, and it's her brand. So I do pick and choose things like sustainable and ethical fashion brands. Australian, I prioritize as well, just because I want to support Aziz. Yeah, so yeah, I do. I do pick and choose. And I also don't have heaps of time. I only can work part time. So naturally, I do pick and choose who or who I take on. Yeah, even not being that big or that busy right now. I still have the opportunity to pick and choose so I do. Yeah, now that's good. I mean, you're picking the people that align with your own belief so yeah, I'm not trying not to be a bitch about it. I just I do I pick people who align with what I'm doing and yeah, I'm not gonna go work for a fast fashion brand whose stuff comes from China and just has you know, this just imported from them. They're not you know, yeah. Yeah, there's no carpet so it's not Yeah, it's it's that connection thing again, isn't it? It's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So sorry, I'm just gonna I'm skipping back again. We were getting through it but we're doing it in really? Your mind what what? You just you do you and I'll just answer whatever you want. Oh, good. No pressure. No. Good. I wanted to go back to when we talked much early hear about the support that you had. And you mentioned that you had you don't you didn't have any friends who were at the same sort of time in their life having babies at the same time when you did. And you sent us the words, I had to find new friends. Yeah. How was that? Like? I mean, you you expressed that you had postnatal depression and anxiety was that? Was that really a challenging? Sorry, I don't want to bring up things. If you're not, you know, I want to make you make you feel sad. Like, I'm not gonna say to you that I don't already write about us say to other people. So like, I don't care. Look, I did have friends who had babies, but they weren't close friends that I had, like, everyday contact with him feel like they were close friends that I could talk to them about how I was feeling. But also I didn't, I didn't know anyone that had had twins. And most, most women and most of my friends were really excited had a joyful pregnancy. Positive positive, you know, and I just didn't really I was careful with who I spoke to. Because I didn't feel like that for most of the pregnancy. Yeah. But what I did do is join a facebook group for moms that moms of multiples and parents of multiples. And so I got my feel from that, to be honest, rather than you know, and to maybe real life best friends who's who I've known forever. And were there for me with whatever I was feeling. So I did have them with my husband, my family. But yeah, I also use these online groups to sort of see how other mothers were feeling. And they were all very honest. So I realized it was normal and okay to be feeling anxious. Yeah, that's very important, isn't it? Because you'd be, you'd sort of be really questioning each question yourself to start with, but then you'd be like, Oh, hang on a second. Everyone else around me is all happy. Is this okay? You know, like we touched on earlier, like, yeah, no, that's really good. That's great. So another good social media positive connecting? Yeah, it's very important to me at that time, and I still check in on it every now and then, you know, like googling how to toddler had toilet trained toddlers, and it's like, oh, that group will know. They'll have some tips. I just, you know, yeah. That's it. Because it's not just that, you know, baby, the baby part. But then as they grow up, it's like, you're gonna have these different questions. Other things? Yes. Do you put twins in the same class at school? Like, you know, little things like that. When you go to a birthday party with your twins? Do you take two presents or one? Like silly little things, but it's nice to have somewhere that you can look? Yeah, slowly? That's so true. Yeah. Do you work with any, like children's brands? Like, are you drawn to doing things with children? Because you know, you've got your children? Yes. So like, basically, I got the job that I got working for that magazine for the parenting mag, the parenting magazine, I got that job because I was a mom, and I wouldn't have otherwise gone for it, or probably even been considered. So that was the first thing that sort of changed. I wanted to find a way to keep writing and blogging because like, I'd write articles and blogs, right. And so that was a way for me to continue writing, but still, in this new part of my life, and now with content creation, and working for brands and things. There has been several baby boutiques who have reached out and so I will incorporate the boys into photos and videos. I prefer to do toys. So there's one brand Mantine me and they have like, Montessori type. What's it called interactive toys and educational toys, and activities you can do so that's fun. And I enjoyed filming stuff like that, because I get to play with the kids with the activities and the tripods just holding my phone recording stuff. And then I edit it later. You know, I like that. Yeah, other than the fashion stuff, that's me. I'm not sure like, I love doing it. So it's so it's so cute, but it's harder. I prefer to do the playing activity things with them. And then I'm sort of doing stuff with them as well. That's it's a spontaneous, spontaneous reaction to like, they're going to be asked about the toy so much, and I have all those videos as as the boys grow up, and I have all those videos now. Like, it's like memories that I'm recording as well, to me. It's not just about work, and I get paid for that. And this and that, you know, I like having those memories that I'm sort of recording to Yeah, that's that's such a good point is that look, that's very cool. Well, yeah, I just thought about it the other day when I was on my phone, just you know, scrolling through stuff, and I was like, Oh, I remember that. Caleb and I remember this and that and it's nice to have those in my phone. You know that you otherwise probably wouldn't make the time to like, do Oh, yeah, that's, that's so true I like parents and working mothers following me. And I like connecting with them on Instagram as much as they don't have brands. So maybe I can't create content for them. I like having them in my feed and reading about their motherhood journey. And I hope that they like reading about mine. So I do try to like 30% of the time talk about motherhood and kids stuff on my Instagram, and then you know, 50%, I talk about work stuff and whatever else, but I like to sort of keep that open as a pillar or whatever you want to say, for my social media stuff. So yeah, well, you know, I actually predominantly work with fashion brands with the content creation business that I have. You know, handbags, clothes, even baby products, they'll send me stuff, and I'll photograph it or make reels, whatever they ask of me. So while that doesn't necessarily matter, to some mothers who are listening to this, yeah, I do like to talk very openly about being a mom and working while being a mom. And also I'm honest about trying to overcome, you know, postnatal depression and anxiety and have medication for it. And I'm very pro, like, if you need to have medication and you feel the same. That's okay. You know, things like that. Yeah, there's people, a lot of people have said to me, why weren't you nervous about starting medication and not being able to come off it? Or some people actually said, like, I heard that any depressants can make you like, put on heaps of weight. So I don't want to and, you know, I just sort of had all those kinds of conversations with people and what what medication do you take because all the ones I taught made me feel sick. And so I like to just sort of be encouraging with that stuff, too. Yeah. Without saying too much. Because I know it's not spoken about a lot either. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I have had quite bad personal repression. And I take Feistel take my own. Now, am I Yeah, six now, but honestly, I, my daughter in a pandemic at the moment to like, seriously, but that's the thing. Like, I think people are scared of medication. And I know it's not for everybody. Yeah, that's fine. But I don't, yeah. I'm not scared people knowing that I take medication, because I think that helps to normalize the stigma around mental illness and, and how to work through it's like a tool to help you get through. Yeah, so but some people also describe how they feel to me, I think, because they know that I have experienced it, maybe. And I can see from what they described to me that they it's quite alarming, like they're quite anxious, or they are feeling really low. And it's like, wouldn't you rather just feel better? And if you have to have some medication temporarily. Why don't you just try it like? Yeah, it's a tough one. It is. Yeah, yeah. Because that's thing you don't know. Who in their life is maybe giving them their own opinion? You know, like people? Yeah, you may be someone's going on. You don't need that. Yeah, right. Oh, I had that. Yeah, I ended up just not saying anything to anyone and going to the doctor and getting it myself and taking it and seeing then I'd started to tell family afterwards after I was already on it, so that they couldn't try and talk me out of it again. But yeah, I just think it's Yeah, important to talk about normalize, like you said, not not be judgmental, if other people want to have medication or need it, and be encouraging about, it's okay, if you do need it, you know, things like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think we'd be in a lot better place as in as, as a society if we were just so much more open and accepting of other people's, you know, issues and problems and just being supportive of people is even, even my dad like I, I work with a, there's a local group there called lifeboat and it's basically they gathered up a lot of sort of people in the community that people recognize, like, not fake, I want to say famous, but you know, we're a small town. Most people know everyone. So they gathered up a heap of people and said, Let's do some podcasts to talk about your experience with mental health. And, and my dad said, Are you sure you want people to know what happened to you? And I said, Yes, that's why I'm doing it because I want people to know that average, ordinary everyday people, everybody has issues, you know, and yeah, don't be scared to talk about because there are people out there to help you. And you'll get you'll get the support you need. You know, instead of just being scared of what people think of you, so that said that I reckon that's the generational difference, because my parents are very private like that, too. And they, I don't know how they feel about what I say, and things like that. But I think it's courageous to just be brave and just say how you're feeling. I mean, doesn't help anyone just doing what maybe our parents think we should do? Which is just, you know, suffer in silence Be quiet. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Another way we can sort of help. The shift in the thinking, I think moving forward on new cost sharing. Yeah. Thank you. And you too. Yeah. Nah, thanks. So it is it is good. I mean, it's hard, but it's good. You know, after that, after I did that podcast, I got so many messages from people just saying, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I this is what makes it worth it, you know, and that that was the That's what I said to the host. I said, you know, if if one person gets something out of this, it's been in here, you had people message him saying, you know, my wife had this. This was like, 60 year olds, right, saying my wife had this, but nobody knew what it was. We didn't know what to do with it. You know, this, this, this whole shift that's happening in caring for for mental unwellness you know, it's just amazing. So yeah, I was really pleased that they asked me to do this. I really Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that's the thing, the more we can talk the better. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge. We've been had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts