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Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Vian Lin Australian pianist and influencer S2 Ep33 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Vian Lin is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane QLD, and a mum of 4 children. ​ Vian was born in Shanghai China and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002 to pursue her music studies. Vian started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just 3 years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha Piano Competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year Vian received a scholarship from University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries, and performed a piano solo with her own piece – “Two Cities” at the 2014 G20 Summit in Brisbane. ​ In the past decade, Vian has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami Im, the Queensland and Sydney Symphony Orchestras, Yo-Yo Ma, and so many more. Vian has performed for Queensland Performing Arts Centre Brisbane Festival and other major festivals in Australia, and around the world. ​ In 2011, Vian created Harmonie Music Centre and Harmonie International and started her new business chapter with a group of young Australian musicians who share the same goals. Vian is now the director and owner of these businesses. Over the past 11 years, Harmonie has brought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia, in over 300 performances to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and Auckland. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vian is also an educator who has students over all over the world. Through her social media handle 'Not Just a Pianist' Vian shares her love of music, collaborates with fashions houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. ​ Vian facebook / Instagram / youtube Podcast - instagram / website ​ Vian’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for your company. Today my guest is vn Lin. Vn is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane, Queensland, and a mum of four children, then was born in Shanghai, China, and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002. To pursue her musical studies. Vn started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just three years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha piano competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year vn received a scholarship from the University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries and performed a piano solo with our own piece two cities at the 2014 G 20. Summit held in Brisbane. In the past decade, vn has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami in the Queensland and Sydney Symphony orchestras, Yo Yo Ma, and so many more. In 2011 vn created harmony Music Center, and how many international and started her new business chapter with a group of other young Australian musicians who shared the same goals. The end is now the director and owner of both these businesses. Over the past 11 years harmony has bought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia to Australia in over 300 performances and to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and in Auckland, New Zealand. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vn is also an educator, and she has students from all across the world. Through her social media handle, not just a pianist vn shares her love of music collaborates with fashion houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. I hope you enjoy our chat. Welcome, VN, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's my pleasure. I really like your Instagram accounts. Yes, it's quite inspiring. That's great to hear. Thank you. So you're up in Brisbane? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Must be nice and warm up there this time here. And this is Clay warm today. Yes. So on your social media is your handle is not just a pianist. So can you tell me how you came up with that? And what are the things that you do in addition to play? Obviously, piano is this my career? And but, you know, I was thinking I should actually label myself not just the pianist because I'm also a mom, and also influenced. And also, you know, I'm still studying lots of things. So that's why I came up with some idea that I'm not just the pianist. Yeah. So that's cool. And it sort of makes people intrigued and sort of wonder, what are the things that you do? So that's really cool. Yeah, yeah. So tell me how did you get into playing the piano if you've been playing for a long time? Yeah, I've been playing for already, I think 35 years. I have to say, yes. 35 people are known. I've been playing for years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you started when you're quite young. I started when I was three. So it was like many many, many years ago and I've been playing and I was studying You know at the Conservatorium University of Queensland and I've been traveling from Australia to Austria and many different countries and you know, sharing music and learning from this person to the other. So music is basically the blood, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you grew up in a family that that played music as well. Surprisingly, actually, my dad is a businessman, and my mom is an author. So if and I don't have any family influence, but my mom is very, very supportive. When I was young, I remember because, you know, when you were young, you have no idea why you need to learn the music. So I always wanted to quit. And I always wanted to do something silly, but my mom always support me. And you know, call me back to the music and piano lesson and stuff. So yeah. So it's good that she did. Isn't it kept you going? Yeah, yeah. So did you grow up in Australia or we born overseas? I came here in the year of 2000. So that was 22 years ago, I believe. And I think I came here. even earlier than that, maybe 2018 Just for the exchange program as music students, so from China, so I've been in Brisbane. Quite a few years already. Yeah. And whereabouts in China. Are you from? Shanghai? Oh, yeah. That's a name that most people will recognize that. Yeah, that's right yeah. Tell us about your family. You have some children. I have four children. Yeah, I got Doremi. Far. You're not going to complete the scale. Hey, yeah, but that's already a lot. I come anymore. That's it. Yeah. So how What's the age range of view up children? Oh, my youngest just turned one. Oh, wow. And my oldest is 27. In April. So I basically had four children in five years. Well, already. Yeah. Yeah. And guess what? I didn't start my performance as well. So I was basically, you know, giving birth and having babies in a plane and he's fine. Oh, wow. So was obviously like, important to you to keep keep playing your music. You weren't going to stop that for anything. I think it's very difficult to you know, like, not stop. I mean, it's very difficult for women. I think parenting and pregnancy is very, such a big challenge. I have to say, it's a biggest challenge in my life, but I still wanted to do music. So this drives me to see balance. You know, being a mom and being a pianist, I have to say, so did you have, like some support, like family support? Or, you know, someone to help out? You know, with the practicalities of looking after the kids while you're able to perform? Um, yes, I do. I do. I do. But just during the pregnancy, it wasn't that pleasant because, you know, my third and fourth child, they are quite young, and they they around the COVID period. My first child is a call the baby basically. So no one help you. We don't have any any parents. We don't have anybody. You just have to rely on yourself and your family just to get through this. Yeah. Oh, good on you. Yeah, made it. Yeah. Congratulations. So do you do write your own music? As well as playing other people? I do write my own music on the piano. Yes, I do. Yeah. Great. I was gonna ask whether Have you noticed after you've had the children that you might have sort of, are you influenced by the kids like as being becoming a mother changed the way you write? Just in music, particularly before I become a mom, my music is always driven and I always wanted to challenge the speed and to showing off how fast I can play. Giving birth and having your child understand life is not about speed. It's about how relaxed you can be to handle all This scenario, so, email me so you can hear all this settled for flow. So I have changed a lot because of this parenting thing I have to say, Hmm, that's very interesting. Yeah, like that. So it kind of helps you helps you to slow down as well. And keep Yes. If you're sort of in that, that mood. Yeah. So in addition to doing your piano, you you do your influencing you do some modeling as well. Can you tell us about that? I started to do lots of collaborations with it was different brands from 2021. Um, before that, I do perform a lot and you know, friends and different brands, they didn't really, you know, push me to label as an influencer, because I think I was mainly focusing on the performance, then COVID hits. So obviously, your performance, opportunity or time everything else very, very limited, right? So as to think maybe I should do something different. So I start to do YouTube videos kind of became a YouTuber. Also, Instagram and Facebook. Plus, there is some very new Chinese channel called the Red Book. So I am professional Korea, music and also parenting. So I started to have more fans and audiences, then I start to do collaborations with different brands. So that must be fun, like getting to, to wear different clothes. And I've noticed in the campaign you did for Westfield, that you've got your family involved as well. Yes, that's right. We did a campaign was February. And it was kind of fun, because I get to choose the color combinations and my hair and everything. I really liked those kinds of things. Because I think I'm a I'm a canvas, which is very arty, you know, like how I want it to be creative. So I really enjoyed doing what I love. I have to say, this is really a blessing. Yeah. And it's good to be able to step away from the piano too. And show maybe a different side of your creativity because it can be really, yeah, yeah. And that everyone you did like having your hair in that the two little buttons and the bra was written was just very eye catching. Looks awesome. Thank you for your feedback. I love it, too. I recently had a hair cut so I can't go that up anymore. But they will grow to low bars boss who knows? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I was I had a look at your YouTube, you've got some really fun things on YouTube, like you do the unboxing of your products. That the music side of things, which is really cool. Like, you actually explain the stories behind particular songs sort of educate, as well. Yeah, so you obviously enjoy sharing your knowledge that you have about music as well. Yeah, yeah. And also a fun one was when your husband did you make up that was a good one. Yeah, I have to say that. I think being America. But you know what? I'm so curious. If you look at all those top beauty cosmetic brands, you know, in that in nowadays, you know, all the top makeup artists, they're all male. You're interested. And you know, for this gender thing. Male nowadays they were makeups huh? Yeah, they can kiss and they are so conscious about how they look and how they can improve their appearance and stuff. So yeah, it's interesting so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. has been having good had a good go. I didn't think he did a very bad job actually didn't do that. Very honest, because I like you very much. So it wasn't a good well, yeah, but you got to have fun. Don't Yeah, you've got to you got to have fun in life. Yeah, absolutely. Do your children play music as well? So actually my oldest daughter harmony, she's doing four instruments. Oh, well, he is doing three instruments. So they, they, they are lucky because they born in a musical family, you know, and I guess they're influenced by what we're doing. Because we also have our education institute, which operates and actually have music education, sort of program and stuff. So they basically when they were just six months, they start to grab, you know, triangle, bongo drums and anything you can think about. So they they love music. Yeah, absolutely. And do they enjoy watching you play or hearing you play? Yeah, especially how many because every time I go to a concert, she, she, she did attend. And I think for the reason why she even became my special guests. So she played the cello and we collaborate one song from the north cello exam syllabus, and I really enjoy it, you know, the opportunity to share the stage, not with five musicians, but also with fellow musicians, such as my daughter, this is not only the proud mom moment, it's just the moment that you understand. I am giving my child you know, a musically environment. And she enjoys it, and she's able to stand up and share the stage because I think at such a young age and then standing up on stage to play in front of so many people. It is a very frightening, you know, sort of experience. Absolutely. Yes. Because, you know, even even when I was 17, I came to a piano competition, I can tell that I was so shaky, and I was so nervous, you know, but what I saw my daughter's she's okay, actually, she's only six that time. So I'm so proud. I have to say, oh, yeah, absolutely. I can completely relate to that. Do you think though, because maybe because you've made music, such a normal thing in your life, and she's probably seen you perform. So she thinks it's not scary. It's not not that it's not a big deal. Like she understands that it's important, but it's sort of normalized it a bit for that. And she's sad for me to say. Yeah, because for me on the stage, she knows that our mommy is doing this when I'm going to do something similar to what my mom does. So she, Ellie she has got like, some like security, you know, font there. So she does feel like okay, I can do it. So even if she can't do perfectly it doesn't matter, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's I think that's a wonderful gift to be able to pass on to children that's really lovely. One thing I love to talk to my guests about is the concept of mum guilt. So this idea that mums should just be mums and then if you do anything else apart from being a mum, you should you should feel bad about it or that you know, society makes you feel bad about it. How do you feel about mongoose? I have to say I'm I'm a selfish I'm how to say it. I love my children, right? And I go for it. That's a lot of workload. You can you can't you can't imagine how much you have to do. But for example, now it is the cola period. I don't know about other city but but in particularly in Queensland. It's getting worse. So every bit every day there will be like an increased amount of ls 10,000 cases Imagine that. And if you any group chat, you will notice all the months or so panic, they will be like, I'm not going to send my kids to childcare. I'm not gonna write and this and that. But what I did, but I'm not saying that I'm putting my kids into risk, because they are in a very good school, which I attended when I was young, you know, and all of my four children, two of them are in primary school, one is seeing how to have the IERC, which is the Early Learning Center. So what I did is, every morning, I do send them to there. All right, I trust the teacher, I trust the facility will be able to give my child a healthy and safe environment. All right, because every, every institution, they have a call of a safe plan. So but you know, because some moms are so panicked, they don't believe they don't transmit So, but I'm the one who may be a bit selfish that I trust the institution. And I decided to leave my kids there. Because if they go the whole day, I'll be able to work. Hmm, do my own thing. All right. This is one thing. The other thing is, no matter what every week, I need to do do my yoga. Is this my relaxation moment? So if you want to sacrifice, I'm not going to sacrifice. If my daughter says that, Oh, Mommy, can you do this for me? I will say no, no, I so you can do that with Melody, or you can do that with you know, there are many people in our family. We are big family, you can do that with this or that I gave her options. But the option is not me. Because I told her mommy needs mommy's can. Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm very different. Especially in Asian culture. Because the Asian culture, I think, especially my mom's generation, family, kids, parenting is always the first priority. You never think about yourself. You just have to give everything to your family is a culture you know, huh? Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But it's good that, like, you've recognized that you need particular things in your life, so that you feel good. You know, it's not all about pleasing everyone else all the time. Or maybe you've already passed to that stage because I'm, I'm turning 36 This year, so I don't feel like I wanted to please everybody anymore. Do you get what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. I always wanted to do my best. I want to show maybe my in laws how good I am in i and show my friends or show my kids. Kids. You know, Friends, Mom, you know, like how good I am stuff. I don't want to do that anymore. I just want to be happy. Yeah, that is so. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. The other a few weeks ago, I had a chat with an author. And she said, It's like when you get to 40 You just think I just don't care about any of that other rubbish anymore. Like you just you get over the fact of, you know, comparison and judgment of other people. And like you said, you just want to be happy and yeah, I think that there's something that comes with with age, you sort of get this perspective of what's important in your life maybe. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was when you had two children, how did the identity of yourself change? Did you sort of feel that that was challenged at all becoming a mother did you feel like you were losing part of yourself or if I look back, all of my, you know, for children and they gave birth and everything, I think that pregnancy is the most difficult part for me. I don't know about other women, but it wasn't a pleasant journey for me for each pregnancy. Maybe because of I push myself to be able to handle work and other men, as well as you know, having getting through this pregnancy. But I had lots of issues and lots of you know, problem problems and call the baby as well. No one helped and physically I was facing a lot of difficulties and also mentally when the baby was born, you know, I think it's all good. Like I don't you're tired anyway but I guess because the natural of myself I'm a very energetic person. Always uplifting you know, I'm just some people think that how come via you know, so always like So up in that high, I said, I'm not on drugs, I just I don't know I don't I don't drink. I can't get drunk. Because if you can one, one cup of anything, I just draw. And I don't smoke. So anything, the only cheat I get myself is maybe just Pepsi or some kids. I'm just having some kids. I'm very happy. So I guess my energy level is always very high. That's maybe why I have four children or because sometimes can I my phone company? Oh, I had one already had enough. Yeah. Oh, that's good. I have three more. If you got three more, you will be fine. I just, I think your energy level is very important. So when you asked me that question, when I look back to that question, I have to say pregnancy is really really bad. This is, this is something that I think every woman is really struggling with pregnancy because the baby is not out yet. You have to always check in you're not sure. And you know, the mom, really nice in your process and everything. You just have to wait. I think that's a period of time for a woman to get through. Both mentally and physically. Hmm, yeah, that's a really good point. So then when you actually had the childhood sort of already prepared yourself had gone through those changes. So then when you had your baby, you were sort of already at that point. I was so lucky. I had the best oil be so what happened is, you know, I my delivery was just so smooth, like didn't feel anything you know, at all, like no pain and no anything just like right hand right? Everything. So maybe because of my case, getting busted didn't really cost me any, you know, attention at all. So my attention Oh, jaws to the pregnancy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I want to say that I really like your channel, because you're trying to do something I think the society really needs. I think there will be no model about a month. Everyone is different, right? And yeah, I don't know how you feel about Australia. But I came here 2000. So it's already 22 years, it's already half passed off my entire life up to now. So I literally I spent more time in Australia than China. I think the Chinese social media recently really raised me up. Recently, there is a very famous Chinese pop sinner called Lee home, a Taiwanese scene, all right, and, and he betrayed his wife. And the wife gave birth three times and gave everything to the family and basically the popstar just betrayed and it became black and white in the society, they start to get to the court, things get very messy and stuff. And you can imagine, you know, the lady would know that the female the mom started to cry and, you know, mentally break down. It's just, I just feel that, when I look back, I have a very different perspective was that I just feel like everybody has a choice. If they don't want to be like that, you know, dependent on your husband, or you don't want to be betrayed by your husband, and think woman, you know, what do you want? Like, you need to really have a strong thing in yourself, then no matter people betray you or not no matter people, you know, do some bad thing or not, he still can move on. So I guess the social media label that women are in a very bad position and men always you know, money and they are they have, you know, strong ego in China. I'm not saying in Australia. You know, women, they need to depend on a man because they are the one who make money. You know that like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, so China In China Social Media, were they trying to say that woman needs to wake up, so I guess it's a bit late, but at least they are starting to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You are not just a mom. You're also so I guess in Australia, this is so natural. Like I saw my friend like yesterday they gave us today they already you know, grabbing the baby just you know, like, at the workplace. Yeah, you cannot do that. You try not people are just like what are you crazy? And that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can breathe and I can do whatever I want even have to rely on the Chinese social media and society Australia because I am influenced. I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't charge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like, and let more people know about it. And I want them to know that people may not know about it, no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. So the most important thing is yourself. That's it. Yeah. Children can wait no matter how many children because every time I find a lesson, yeah, you have four children as you saw what Josh's point if you want to have any more Yeah, that's that's really, really I love that no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. That's just really powerful. Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I really like your channel because I think society needs this kind of thing rather than just label what is good mom. What is bad mom? And yeah, they need something like this. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for being a part of it. It's wonderful to have you on. Have you got anything coming up that you want to let us know? Maybe anyone that you're working with or anything musical that you've got coming? I do have something I got two things to share with everybody. So in Brisbane, from February the first where are we standing a festival called bris Asia festival. And I'm so honored to be able to work with very, very famous producer Anthony and I'm going to do lots of music making with different cultures and sound and, and one of the main theme of it is improvisations. And you can feel the music in the space with different instrumental player and a musician. So it's just going to be so beautiful. I'm so thrilled to share with you about February and one for the festival will go for a month. Yes, sir. Yes. Yes. And my show will be an awful amount. So I will put on my socials. Yeah. And also apart from that I'm working with Japanese jazz scene called Lisa Oh no, she's very famous in the jest field. And I'm going to host her international tour in Taiwan in May. So I'm going to flew sorry I'm going to fly down to Taiwan. Hopefully April and I'm going to do four shows with hiding different cities and this is the part I really looking forward to things called always stop all the international shows. And I can't wait to be physically in that theater the big you know, call with International Jazz Singer Lisa or not. So yes, that sounds fantastic. That is great. Good Anya. So you leave the like the kids will stay in Australia you won't take the kids with you nothing. Because I think they are doing a very good routine. I think consistency is very important for children's development. am I building harmony, my oldest child for her to explore because she's started aware of everything. But obviously though the other three younger ones. They will definitely stick with their daily routine. Yeah. Right. Your parents are still there in China. My dad passed away five years ago in Australia, and my mom is still in China. She's in Shanghai at the moment. We used to live in In Brisbane occasionally because she's that type. She wants her own life. Yeah, she told me. I'm your mom. But I don't have responsibility to take care of your daughter's he's done it hard work. Yes. He told me that she says she needs a life. So I guess that's something that, you know, she passed up to me. So, you know, the beginning, I can't understand that. But now I really enjoyed the distance because she's having her own life and I'm having my life. She's right. I chose to have four children. I have a big family, I've got responsibilities, then I will take care of everything. So you learn from it. Right? No one is perfect. So yeah. Yeah. So my mom is not here. Yep. Yep. So how does you talked before about in the Asian culture that it's sort of like the mums got to do everything and not do anything for herself? How does your mom feel about how you're not in a judgmental way? But just she sort of she recognized because you're in Australia, it's a bit different that you can do yoga and I guess there's reason my mom is not that kind of like sacrificing everything for her child type. Yeah, sure. Example, she decided to send me to Australia when I was very young because she's Spacey. I remember when I was six or seven. Everyone else like dad or mom or grandma, grandpa. They waited at the front of the school in China. They always pick up their kids like in front of it and all line up three o'clock. No one picked me up. My mom pulled a key just Oh, my neck. You go home yourself. I was raised up in that kind of family. You understand what I'm saying? Like? Yeah, yeah. Do you think my mom is even worse? No one can take care of me. I still remember when I was six or seven. I don't remember exactly what she right. There was one time my mom was sick. I was so shocked because my dad was interstate for something business. I don't know. You know what happened to me? I actually we have a lunch break. Every school eat China. You have lunch break. So I remember it's 45 minutes. I ran back home cook instant noodle for my mom. Because I was too young that time. I think if people don't eat, they would die. Oh. This is a no, no. I cooked it and leave it to mom. I said mommy to eat. Okay, then I ran back to school. I was only six or seven. raised up by a family that everybody sacrificed for me. It was well, it was offset, then that's what I'm in Brisbane. You know, in Queensland when I was a teenager. I dive into the culture quite quickly, because I think my family's belief is quite matching was, you know, Western culture a little bit. Not not 100% but majority of Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. Yes. So in a way your mom was kind of not doing the normal trend for an Asian family. Yeah. Yeah. Did so when you when you sort of started to realize that. Did you think that was a really good thing. Like, did you think my mom was really cool? Because she's just doing whatever she wants. So was it the opposite? My mom is really cool. You know? And I tell her tonight, she's really cool. Because I think I still I see, I don't know, I think you have that kind of friends around you. I don't know if you know, that. Every day. If you send your kids to school, right? You bring lunch. And some moms, they are just amazing. Like everything you just opened their lunchbox like they can do the sushi like Panda. And you know, like, yeah, yeah, they can just talk like, oh, like a mastership Yeah, I can't. I can't it's basically that I don't have the time and I'd be honest, I don't have effort to really learn that then there will be people saying the odd vn doesn't love techies. Yeah, there will be like, because I'm an influencer. So people sometimes judge about me. Oh, she never cooks. Oh, she doesn't know how to cook. She doesn't feed her child. But they still eat so mom, you know, raised me and then my mom was just so cool. Do you know why? I'm still working and I'm working like so busy. You know, it's from my social media. So for example, reason why I had a shooting with Ross Ross. You know the conduct recap. Yeah, he's helped me with the scripts, scripts. And it seemed Mandarin English. Obviously. My mom is author. She's so cool. She can help my scripts. Yeah, yeah. Just imagine if my mom choose to be, you know, giving her Everything just raised me pick me up from school, cook about those food for me and give up her career. She won't be so good. I mean, I, I think I think when you just, I mean it's not yes or no right or wrong, but at the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself, what do you really want? Like a mom like, Oh, come on, can you bring me to your family? Can I live with you? I don't want to be like that kind of mom. I want them have their own life. So do I want to have my own life? So I guess maybe the best way is we do have a bit of boundaries. We do have the lines and to let my children know what does not mean. Like what does money don't like and what what moms can do well, mom want to so let's see. I'm not 100% Mom, you know what I mean? Like? Yeah, absolutely. No, that's wonderful. I really love that good on you. Because I think, I think a lot of moms feel like they have to do everything. And if you don't do it, then you're a bad mom, you know, but it's like yeah, no, that's not true. Yeah, absolutely. And this, this makes people sometimes a bit panic as well. I think this is a peer pressures as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The sort of competition of like you said about the lunch boxes, like, you know, and then you see things. And you know, how neat and tidy your uniform is, your hair is all sort of mark your child gets, you know, you know, that kind of things. Yeah. And then And then, with social media, too, there's all this, you know, you see what other mums doing and all the competition there. It's like you forever feel like you've been judged by somebody else. And yeah, gets a bit much. So your your story is very refreshing. I think a lot of people are going to be very inspired to hear to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So honestly. I really, really love chatting to you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. ​ Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. ​ Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) ​ Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. ​ They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song ​ Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. ​ Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ ​ Podcast - instagram / website ​ Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Samantha Redfern British expat mixed media visual artist S2 Ep30 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Samantha Redfern is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and 3 children. ​ Incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti, Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colour, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. ​ Samantha studied fine art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolours, spray painting, and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging, on swimwear and she sells and exhibits her artwork all around the world. ​ Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in lockdown, patriarchy in art and the economics of a working artist, We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. ​ **This episode contains discussions around low mood + miscarriage*** ​ Connect with Samantha on instagram - https://www.instagram.com/samantharedfern.fineart/ ​ and her website - https://samantharedfern.com/ ​ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on today's episode is Samantha red fan. Samantha is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and three children incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti. Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colors, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied Fine Art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolors, spray painting and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging on swimwear, and she sells it exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in locked down the patriarchy in art, and the economics of a working artist. We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. I hope you enjoy. This episode contains discussions around low mood and miscarriage. Welcome to the podcast, Samantha. It's so lovely to meet you today. Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me on. How did you end up in Singapore? So we so me and my husband we met at university, so I did a fine art degree. And he did maths. So you know, leads make sense? are really bad maps. What do you do? I do maps? Oh, it's perfect pairing. So yeah, we've been together since we were 18. We've been together for a really long time, had three kids. But the third one we had out here. So we I don't know. I think we were just stuck in this. This routine, like, particularly me because my husband was working in London, he only saw the kids on weekends. I was just in this, this routine of just housework, like housework and childcare. And it left me no room to even do anything. Like there was no one to look after the kids. So even in the evening, I couldn't go out anywhere or do even do like a Zumba class or something like that, because I couldn't leave the kids husband wasn't till about you know 1010 at night so really, really long days. Didn't have Netflix or anything like that. So you just end up surfing video chat, just bored. I was just really really bored and frustrated because I felt like I loved to keep part playing with the kids but actually lost who I was or any kind of ambition or motivation to seem to be non stop washing, you know folding clothes. Like all that kind of thing. Which if you are someone who loves homemaking, then yeah, sure. That's that's that's great. But for me, I never loved housework. never loved that. Yeah, you know what was it like for you as a kid? I guess not damn I've always been a massive animal lovers always had a lot of pets and have dogs and you know, love being out walking with them taking the kids for days out. But then this opportunity came along. My husband was offered a potential role overseas and it never happened. And at first I said No, good. No, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. Like what? Like, and then I just thought Why Why am I adamantly saying? No, like if opportunities come along, like, should we have that knee jerk reaction to just deny it and that I stopped thinking I thought wouldn't that be an you know, an experience or an adventure or something that opens up loads of possibility? He's we lived in a small village and Dave Days were quite similar. And then weekends was like, where do we go local garden center? b&q which is homeware store, you know, mowing the grass? I thought, why not? So we, yeah, we found an opportunity. And we moved over here, the dogs and the kids and just uprooted. And it was just the best decision. It was honestly the best decision. Yeah, wow. That's it's daunting, but exciting. You know, like, it's, you don't know what it's gonna be like when you get there. But you just go on for it. Yeah, I honestly, I just thought, I don't know, like, I will hate it, maybe will hate it. And I told everybody, we'll be back, we'll be back into the years, two years, we'll be back, we're just doing this for a little bit. And then it's six years now. You probably can't see yourself going back, probably no lifestyle who's so different, like, you know, I can run my business, I can see friends, I can do this stuff I can, if we moved back, everyone else's life would kind of be the same. The mind would change, if that's the thing in mind that would be negatively impacted the most. And I don't want to give that up. But I've been working for my business. So hard, put so much into it. And if I had to go back, and then not have time for again, and not, I just I just couldn't get couldn't literally kill part of myself off because I would desperately even feel like, yeah, fight this period of my life. And I don't want I don't want to, and everybody's so happy here. The kids are happy. And husbands super happy here. And it is hard because with COVID We've been separated. So never in a million years that I wouldn't see my parents for two years. Yeah, but life. Life happens. And it's been really tough. But it's still the right decision. A lot of expats move back home because of this because it couldn't be separated. But from a family perspective, we feel like it's the best thing to be to be out here and just hoping this goes away. Please go away Yes, I tell tell me all about your art. I know I've looked at it. I've looked at it on you online, and it's so bright and vibrant. And, and what you said, just through this conversation about you just want people to feel good and make people feel happy. And yeah, tell us all about it. I actually didn't start off by doing kind of like bright happy artwork. You know, it just kind of evolved. And I realized when we moved to Singapore, and like, there seems to be a gap in the market for abstract art for the older white walls, because most people here you're renting. This is expatriates. Or like you know, not to say most people I'm sure lots of locals but for expats and things most people are renting out here and and you get the bog standard white walls, you know, everything is white. And then people have bought stuff from home or they've left from home ash. So actually, I want something for my wars. Like you know, and I don't want something mass produced and when we're not in a position where we can just go and buy something that's like, you know, 30k or whatever. So I was like, Maybe I should do something. It's been such a while since I actually tried to paint because I'd been doing photography and I've been doing pastoral pastoral drawings and watercolors for you know, just people or myself or like my kids or pets or whatever. But I'm actually really got some paints out since university or other than getting a finger painting with the kids but in that kind of more like guess Okay, let's let's make something Yeah. And first it was like, What do I paint you know when people like can't go out and and go what Okay, so I just thought what, what do I see? And then I I walk a lot and you know, I was going out I've taken all my photos of all the tropical plants and things like that, of course color inspiration. So I was doing maybe plants and flowers, and then it evolved into my city scape series which is the combination of that Uh, the architecture here surrounded by this kind of lush tropical rainforest, the foliage. And then it evolved more into the abstract expressionists pieces with the graffiti style and the colors. So it's very much evolution, but everything kind of spins back, you know, to the beginning with the flowers and the nature and the shapes. So a lot of the shapes I use in my work, and they represent things like they still represent the buildings like a you squares a lot, which represents like humanity and a lot of ways. I've started incorporating crowns and things that was quite a recent thing. I did a breast cancer painting. It's called yas queen, and it was pink. And it's like, it's because it had boobs in their crowns in that and it's like a real like, empowering like piece. And I liked that. And that's how painting makes me feel so empowered. It's like, makes you stand out from the crowd. Like you're not just anybody. You're an artist and you're expressing yourself and that does make me feel confident. I like the reaction. You know, when people said what do you do? And you're like, Ah, I'm an artist. And I love that it makes me feel really really empowered. So the Crown's come in as that kind of symbol of like, Yeah, I'm, I'm doing my thing and I feel positive. Yeah, so that's really cool. I love that so you talked about photography in your past was have you always done a bit of art throughout your whole life? Yeah, literally, I did. From the my one of my earliest memories of preschool is one of my teacher saying, Oh, well done smells. Really, you know, you've done a good job on this. And I think, you know what, when you have positive affirmation from teachers is so important. Not all teachers are good. And not all teachers are encouraging. But when you have that it makes such a difference for a child. I've been lucky. I've had some teachers that totally dismissed me as nothing, you know, like I wasn't sporty. So the PE teachers and things they were like I always liked English. So my English teachers were always very good with me, and I like creative writing or write poems and little kids stories and things that Lance anything created for me. Yep, not sporty, crap at maths, like terrible maths, I think because it's so it's either right or it's wrong. And I don't like that. I like things that are open for interpretation. And I think with artworks, people see different things evokes different emotions in people, whereas Yes, some I'm sure it does, because for some people who love math, they get very excited about equations. But for me, like, No, I don't have a massive brain. Just honestly awful. And then I did it for my GCSE. So I did art design. And then I went on to college. And I did basically a double A level in art and design, which is great, because basically spent most of the time doing art. I did English as well. So I did a level English and I did this double. A level. I loved it, because I think this is what made my practice kind of what it is now because I'm really experimental. I like to try different things. So people were like, Okay, you're doing this now, or you're done this, but for me, that's what should be. It shouldn't be like, Oh, I've nailed something, someone's bought it. I'll just do 1000 of these until I die. It's more. Okay, what else can we do? And I had this teacher called Yuna, and she was always like grass. Nice. Happens If you stick this on it, you know? And that was her attitude. It's like yes, that's a nice painting. What can we do to really make it not just a nice painting but as something, you know, elevated somehow. And that's exactly how I've approached my my work and I started doing the mixed media staff and I love it now. I find it really hard not to stick stuff on my work when I'm painting through this across so spray paint Tanner just just cover it in it. You know, I think when you're not scared of ruining a piece, it enables you to really kind of like, let let go and I think that society can be so so rigid and we're doing our same routine means and for me, it's like this, this big release of energy and everything is just getting a canvas, big canvas, like working big and then just going to town on it, you know, it's so releasing, and anybody can do it. Anybody can do, it doesn't have to be something that's gonna go and hang in the Tate Modern or whatever. It's just part of tapping into yourself and that primitive urge that so many of us have, like with singing or music or dancing, or, you know, whatever, we have this urge to express ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned just in passing just a little bit about your kids and their ages. Can you tell us a bit more about about your kids? Yeah, so I've got a 12 year old daughter, and yeah, I was 20. I was 26, when I had her. So that's actually like, quite young by today's standards. I didn't, I didn't feel overly young. And in fact, I'm glad I had event because I had a kid later as well. So I've got a four year old. And, wow, your bodies are so much more tired, so much more time in your 30s then it is in your 20s Now, I don't think everybody has to like make decisions based on you know, where they are in their life and like, you know, the situations and circumstances. And for us, we got married quite young. So we were married at 24 I think we just kind of thought, shall we, you know, as so many people do, when you think about having a family kind of tends to be a bit you know, can be a bit of a like a showy, and, you know, worked out everything you don't expect it not to though, with your first you don't expect it you don't have any decent day you don't know any different you don't know about troubles with conception or miscarriages or things like that. You just expect you're pregnant. And it'll go it'll be fine. It's quite a nice easy breezy pregnancy. But with with her like I was working so I had a sales job. And I wanted to make a lot of money so that I could have comfortable maternity leave. So I basically had loads of orders coming in and coming through get the Commission's that in my head, I was like if I go for coffee and a cake or like, you know, want to treat myself to something that's all on I'm paid for it. So I'm not going to be like a financial burden by not, you know, not working and then costing extra. Yeah. But then I wanted to go back and I tried to get that but our company was bought out by someone else. And then my job wasn't there anymore. And they said you just keep applying, like through the portal. And so I was applying for jobs. I mean, I probably shouldn't have to apply for finance director, you know, didn't really have that that credentials, but the salary looks really attractive. It's like sure, I'll go back to 90k. But I tried anyway, I did. I did try. And then we got pregnant with my middle child, my son. So there's literally one month off three years between them. And yeah, I had a miscarriage in between two, I think two in between. You know, so I know then when you have that, that other pregnancies you learn that it's not always plain sailing, and it's not always, you know, given that you just get pregnant and then just have babies. But yeah, so having having taken this when I had a call from a company, it's like coming back to work. I was like, Well, you know, I'm kind of pregnant and they're gonna have another baby, baby. And then with with him, I did the maths of what I would go back to salary wise, what it would cost me to commute to work what it would cost me to have lunch or coffees or get binding work. rope, you know, and then car petrol maintenance childcare. Yeah, I would have made literally like a couple of grand like once you subtract it or taking home that 2000 pounds. That looks so good. You know, that's not like a month. Yeah. I just don't, actually we're okay. Without my salary. We've managed, you know, we've managed voluntary redundancy, which helped and, and then, so we're okay, we just keep living the way we're living. And then I stay at home with the kids and my husband, you know, he was working long hours. And of course, he would have encouraged me to go back to work, or he would have supported me like, whatever, it was very much my decision. But he did like that I'm there. For the day taking photos, I'm there firsthand with the kids, I can tell him, you know, the little stories or showing the little video clips of what the kids did during the day, rather than coming back, you know, knackered in the evening, and then just hearing it from the childcare. So we were very privileged and very fortunate that could have done that. But everything is positive always has a negative because of course, I stepped away from the corporate world. So I could been climbing and carried on climbing the ladder. Do you take that sacrifice in a lot of ways to spend time with the kids? And then also, remember it you know, it did benefit them hugely. If they don't remember those years, then you get those comments, but daddy works really hard, you know, and that was kind of really annoying. Yeah. You just you just do this. I mean, you just, you know, get the Hoover out. And it's like, okay, okay, you know, you get the credit. You don't get the credit and you feel like you should, you should be like I'm doing everything you know, and I'm not getting paid. I'm like free. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I actually had my I was putting away some washing the other night, my eldest? No, my little one, I've got a I've got a 13 year old and a six year old. My little one says, Mum, why are you always the one that does the washing? And I said, that's a very good question. Digby, why is that? And he goes, cuz, cuz you just have time. And I said, Well, maybe I don't have time. Maybe this is something I have to fit in amongst everything else I'm doing. So why should I be the one that and it got me thinking. And I thought, this is the first time in all these years anyone's actually said that, you know, like, I had this conversation with a, a mum through this podcast. And she said, I don't remember having the conversation with my husband, when I decided I would do everything with the children said, it's just a thing that that society expects, you know, it was like, I'm expected to give up my job. I'm expected to give up my art, my body, my life, you know? And it's like, well, you wanted kids. So there you go. Like, it's just this, this thing that happens to us. And there's what besides? society isn't very sympathetic. I see this when I read comments. I never read comments, don't read comments. It's like a horrible rabbit hole where you just think oh, my God. Yeah. The age old debate about parent child spaces. Yeah. Can I ask them in Australia, right. So I didn't realize the importance until I had kids. And you realize that actually, and even being pregnant as well, because it was a situation I couldn't get into my car. Because somebody parked and I had this massive bump, I couldn't actually get into my car. But then with kids getting them out, but then you understand that you need to open your doors wider to be able to get car seats in and out and strap your kids you need to get right in there struggling and then people like you asked you to have kids. It's not our fault if you shouldn't get special treatment. And it's like, oh my god, do you not understand how society carries on? So what if we all just went on strike? Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Then what? Then society collapses? Yeah, the, you know, no one said to pay, who pays people's pensions? We're doing this a good job, we're doing a service. And if we do a good job raising our kids, those better it all in and raise these nice people to nice people that are going to society. And that that isn't just done to me, and it's not like, well, then I've had you, I can just leave you alone. And then you'll grow up to be an outstanding member of society. It takes a huge amount of work. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing of that. Yeah. Someone else said said the words that, that people forget that we are literally raising the next generation like we are. We are, whatever we do, and how we do it affects how society is going to be, you know, 2030 years down the track. You know, so what we do has so much value, but because it's not a monetary and monetized thing, that value just disappears or dissipates. It's just not valued. I know I don't I don't I'll be back on tick tock This is an interesting topic, this, the last three mums that I've spoken to have, we've all gotten to this, this topic about the way that the mums have been shafted, basically through through COVID. It's yeah, we're the first ones to go and the least appreciated, but, you know, doing the the really hard emotional work, but, you know, that's just what you got to do. Society just expects that and one of the mums said, because she was selling her artwork, it made her and her husband as wealth feel like it was a legitimate job. She said, if I was just doing my art, for me, just as a, you know, something fun, or something I enjoy to do, it wouldn't have been important enough to keep doing, you know, so it's also that monetary value that we have to play some things important. Yeah, that's what he does. Because it says that you're, you know, if you're a big roller, then you're successful. And it doesn't eat. I mean, success is totally subjective, anyway, because Am I successful? Only if I earn crazy amounts of money, like, you know, and these artists are doing credibly? Well, not definitely not the, the the rule, they're the exception to the rule and female artists to get to that point. It's pretty much impossible, because society still banks on the male artists, so can we go to auction? It's always the male artists, these their works are going off for billions. You know, women tend to get that that look in. And until society changes if it ever changes. Because every time we go in the right direction, something comes along and it sets us back. Yeah, thank you. With COVID Set women back climate change the people, they said the people that suffer, suffer the most with that will be women so so we keep we keep bouncing back. And we try and we don't we don't give up. Keep keep going. And but yeah, it's I don't know what your success I feel successful. Because I'm doing something that I that I enjoy, I want to make money from it. And I need to really, because otherwise, how am I going to pay for my materials or whatever. That's what we do is this kind of unpaid work. Because when you're self employed, everything that you're doing your your Instagram, and then people who will say, Oh, you're just messing around on Instagram, it's like, I'm actually not like, I'm a marketing, you know, professional. You know, it and to be that person I looked into, like, how much it costs to get someone involved in all that kind of stuff. It's expensive. So doing all this stuff myself to cut cut costs. And yeah, when people like somebody laughed, I said, I was expensive to be an artist and somebody laughed. I went, No, it really is. Yeah, and that's the mentality isn't it? That's how they that's what they think it's like, what what you're just you're just fluffing around, doing whatever. Yeah. That people have in their minds. Yeah. And they don't realize when they see something sell and they go whoa, money bags, and like you don't realize how many cameras I've bought, how much paint I've bought, you know, my studio I rent it's like these these things that I'm putting in and I still not I'm still not making huge profits or no I'm keeping enough and making enough so that I can my business going. Like if for whatever reason, I suddenly had to be the main breadwinner. I couldn't do this full time you know, I'm not making enough that I can be like sure guys are pay the rent our payment, you know, our buy the food shopping. Honestly, I couldn't I want to get points and that's what I'm working towards. So that's my goal. Like, okay, I can keep my business going now. But I want to get to the point and I think I'm entitled to get to the point of doing this that I can be like I'll pay the bills you know, I'll put food on the table like yeah, you know yeah won't be good on Yeah. I don't think it's like unrealistic or like, you know, unjust a one. Be saying and kind of have that motivation to try you know, try to do it. Yeah, absolutely not good for you Yeah, I think everyone's really had enough of this pandemic. Oh, God, just so depressed. I think it stems my work through through the pieces. Like I then kind of went through this rebellion, because it's so like, you know, unhappy like, I'm not really I'm not a really upbeat person all the time. Like, I'm a Pisces, so I am like, one minute I'm like, I love everybody. I've already is amazing. And next is just like, oh my god, yoga new Mommy, you know, is this changes like, I do get bouts of like feeling low and feeling down and things like that. But I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist. So my husband's like, the more pessimistic and I'm always like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's do it. But I do get down, not just constantly high on life. And I did find it really hard. Because so many of my plans were canceled as well. And I didn't want to feel down because I was like, How dare I, you know, people are really suffering. Yeah. And I kind of thought, actually, I am entitled to acknowledge that I feel down, like, singing from the rooftops. And like, you know, so Oh, woe is me. But like, just to allow myself to actually acknowledge I feel a bit a bit low and a bit disappointed. And I think disappointment is the hardest emotion to deal with. But as a kid as well, like kids, yeah, you're going to Disneyland all of a sudden, you're not going to do that. That is such a hard that's such a hard emotion and it doesn't get any easier as you're an adult. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And you tell yourself, you should deal with this. You're grown up, you know, but you still like things you just say actually disappointed. You flying to all these places, or these countries and doing these shows, and they're like, Wow, this is gonna launch me I'm gonna be there. And the same goes to me, who am I gonna meet different artists, galleries, different whatever. And it's like, knowing you're not going anywhere. You're staying in Singapore for two years. But I guess the The upside to that is no one else is going anywhere. So it's not exactly and I just channeled it or reversed it. And I went through Blue periods. I did people who followed them for a while remember, I just like non stop blue stuff. This has been locked down to begin with, as I blue blue, like depressed blue. And then I just like no, do you know what I can't if I'm not dealing with it? Color. And that's when like, I just believe she rebelled. And I made these like, obnoxiously cheerful, like pieces. It's a kind of like fingers up to like that kind of down feeling. I was like, No, I'm gonna surround myself with these joyful colors and joyful things. And we were in our house right in our house can't leave anywhere. It's had all these paintings all over the walls that hung everywhere. And it was so nice having that I realized people realize being at home, they should have more art. You know, when you're stuck. Actually having just some piece, it makes you feel cheerful and makes you feel good, honestly, does change your space. And if you wake up to that and see if it doesn't lift you as well, you feel like calm surrounded by something beautiful, something positive. And it has that effect on your mood instantly, instantly. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you've decided that the outside world's going to hell, but that's fine. Because in my space, everything's lovely food and I'm creating, you're making, you're making it what you want it to be control. I think a lot of people when you feel out of control, you want to harness some control, right. And this happens a lot of the time, there was a period of time where we were all just completely out of control. And I think when you can control some element of your life, it brings you some kind of relaxation, some kind of safety as well, so I can't control this. And particularly as we were we're a family of five and the rules were all like, you know groups of two, so you'd get out or you know, or one and I had a toddler so my youngest is four. So in the height of Dan, who's two years old, like so full of energy and take him to his little preschool will take Come to like, all these indoor playgrounds, you can run around and just burn off that energy. All of a sudden, he can't leave the house and it's like, wow, the odor to them all right, they were already into like gaming and that kind of thing. They could entertain themselves pretty much. Having having a toddler is like a whole new. Yeah. You want to go out you want to let them run out. And they're also worried about like them not getting any vitamin D or anything. Yeah, we've had a balcony we weren't even allowed outside. So this is how bad it was. And we don't have a garden because we're in a like a what they call here Cluster House, which is like multiple units with shared you know, shared pool shared shared gardens. So because you don't own it we weren't even allowed to go outside like no remaining your property no bounce no balcony. No you know anything so it was really tough. Oh, that's horrible. Well, we because we were in what they call a condo before and I'm so glad at least we moved to this house because now we're kind of more separated and then my husband could still work without everybody being in basically one room because how stressful is that? Because if you've got some need some new trying to do a job and then you've got shouting kids and then you're the one that can also I didn't want to because women really suffered during this because awesome their work if it what weren't paid enough, you know, you're not the breadwinner, your your job has to take that slip, you know, and this was what happens how we ever supposed to catch up if we can't do it, you know, who keeps in cold all yours is just a sideline, yours is a hobby, yours is, you know, doesn't in the big bucks was never going to bring the big bucks is it it's always a sideline exam. You never get the chance to know exactly, it's always that whole first sign of trouble. You've got to, you've got to look after the kids but my husband, he's, he's very, he's very good, strangely FC, or he's very good. You know, he, he doesn't ever try and dismiss my, my job what I do as a sideline or hobby. And, yeah, he's really supportive. And he's got a huge amount of belief in me. And I think that makes such a difference or in a partnership. And it works both ways. Because I've always supported him, you know, as well. So it goes it goes both ways. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. You talked about doing your pastels and your watercolors and stuff. Were you doing that while the kids were little like we able to do any of this for when my daughter was born. And the first like year of life, I think for maybe my son, I didn't do anything. Honestly, I took photos always had like an SLR camera. And I just like to go out and do that. I took loads of pictures and kids and all that stuff. But I literally had no time. And I told me about your recurrent dream where we we had a house. And one day I just discovered this door. I opened the door. And it's this whole wing like of a house like this stuff that we didn't even know we had. And it's like, oh my god, wow, when did we get ballroom? This house, this house was so important. And you just like I had this dream so often. And I'm looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring and neglecting and it's there the whole time going. Come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like because this is I've done I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece. It was totally neglected. And then I took a picture of the kids and I thought just to make such a nice drawing makes it such a nice truck. And I just got pastels and I drew it. And what's really nice, like, it's really nice, I haven't done anything so long. That's really pretty. We framed it and, and then it's kind of just started me doing that. So I use my daughter all the time as like my muse and I did little drawings and then other people in the village was like, Oh, can you do my kids? Can you do my dog? And can you, you know, deal with this. And then that started the business in its early infancy. So that when I came to Singapore, I registered business care, because I was enjoying doing that it wasn't bringing in much money, because it's, it doesn't at that point. And I did it for again, businesses, friends, people, paying you to do the other kids, family, whatever. And that gave me some confidence. And also, yeah, like a little bit of extra income, like, you know, but it wasn't really ticking the boxes in terms of letting loose creatively, because when you're doing someone's kid, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, I'm gonna stick. Goodbye row on there. Doesn't look like my child. And so you it's very much formulated, you've got to grid it out, you've got to play it, it's got to look like the person you're drawing because that's the whole point of those kinds of paintings. Okay, but does it really identify? Like me as well? Just like, is it stand out? Is it recognizable? Because the next part of being an artist is, is developing a style and your style can change. It doesn't have to be this is my style. Now I'm good. I'm staying with this stuff ever. You look at the Masters look at the artists and history with their work isn't the same thing replicated? Like basically carbon copy for that wherever you've artists that do everything like installations. Her like your customer, right? So she's, she's got photo photo, she's got installations, she's got painting she's got, but you don't have to pay for your creativity. You can really, yeah, like circumnavigate the whole, the whole spectrum and, and just give things a go. I've done pottery. I've never done that. late, so I was like, Yes, I'm gonna sign up for a pottery course. Like, you know, why not? What things can you learn? You just learned different, different things about your, you know, your capability. I mean, I'm, I'm not going to do pottery going forward. I think at first I thought I was had this romanticized idea that it'd be super easy, like just throwing pots. And then I imagined painting them in these colors. And I just kind of thought, Yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to be my thing. And it's like, I didn't really shit I still carried on, because I'm a truck. And I've got some nice pieces around the house. But yeah, it's not. It's not for me, I find it to just like what painting gives me which is the freedom that desperately I don't like being restricted or following a formula, which is, you know, pottery and things like that. It's, it's an exact kind of science. And there's a, there's an exact kind of way to do it. And I've got a huge respect for them. But also, it just takes so long. Needed clay out, then you could, you know, you'd roll in spinning it and pull it and then you've got to wait for it to bisque and then you've got to glaze it and you've got to fire it. So takes weeks to get one piece you know, can roll out a massive canvas, like huge canvas, and just spend the day slapping paint on it and like, you know, building the app and in terms of maybe, I mean, I'm an instant gratification person to work on this that's it, I need to take my time. Rather than expect to come out at the end of the day with something workable, you know, that's very interesting. In practice a lot of yoga and one of the terms they they say, if you hate a particular pose, and that's the one you need to work on, because that's the one that's challenging you might not be physically but mentally so there you go. Yeah. Might be that might be your, your thing. Impatient as far as like, I've got no patience at all I hate queuing. Like, you know, I hate that kind of thing. I'm really, really patient like as a person. So yeah, but I've started doing yoga as well. Have I need it because I'm so I'm so uptight. I'm like the real kind of wound, tightly wound kind of person. And I've got issues with this because it causes me physical pain, like I clench my teeth, or Yeah, yeah. And just my neck pain is awful. I've been having physiotherapy for it for ages. And some days, it's so bad, it just gets me really, really down because it's horrible living in constant like constant pain. And then it puts me off going to the studio, because when I go to the studio, I spend a lot of time on like Cantonese, I do that and then when you're scaring in one position a lot of time as well. And then, you know, I ended up putting my neck more sometimes after a lengthy day, in this year, so I'm like, Okay, well, I've got yeah, I've got my mouth God, now we're running out of time, this and that. And now I'm like, Brad, I need to do yoga, I need to find that harmony, that relaxation and just learn to focus on doing that. And not constantly Oh, I better check Instagram, Oh, I better do this. I'm going to upload to this I'm gonna do that already should be painting or I should do this or I should do some exercise you just little you know, there's so many things. I can just sit in my head. I'm like, promotional guy. I love it. And I started doing outdoor yoga. Last year, I've had a number of health problems, which has stopped me from getting into into it, I want to and I think the motivations there. So just just life keeps getting in the way. But they do the outdoor class at the botanical gardens. And I'd say I love walking. So for me that is my exercise. I don't like the gym, I don't enjoy any of that. I like just walking, taking photographs, like just getting out in nature, quite often on my own, just just the solitary you know, stop, I'll have a coffee on my own like love it, I find that really, really relaxing. So I started doing this outdoor yoga class outside. And the rigor itself was fun, like it's nice. My favorite bit was last bit when they get you to lie. And maybe had these like ice cold flannels that you put maybe your face and you just lay there, like totally exposed because there's there's everything there like, you know, otters and monitors are watching over you. You're like you don't get attacked. And it just that was just the best moment like that because people don't find that cyclic, quiet, solace, just pure relaxation in our day to day lives. Really? We don't really Yeah, that's it my daughter is 12 and she's not allowed Instagram. And the reason I say that is because for me my my algorithm knows I'm only interested in art accounts. So my home my home page and my explorer page is like just basically ours. They do still sneak in some celebrities you know I've heard is that you know the Spider Man guy and stuff like that I'm showing an interest in in that but it seems to be really really pushing that I should be interested in Yeah, I'm sure there's like the big companies must pay to be able to get their stuff on that that Explore page because this stuff comes up about like to say I've because I'm I love Star Wars. So Adam Driver, like from the actor from Star Wars. Any movie that he then is in it comes up with the trailers of that and I'm like, like, I love Star Wars. I don't necessarily love this guy, but I like to tell but they're trying to like, you know, Lady Gaga or come up because he was in a movie with her. She's that's it, her and the guy from Star Wars. You're right, that he's all over my school page. I've got like three stars, but I don't mind because I do actually watch the hairstyle stuff. So I'm like, Yeah, fine, like I do. I do like his posts. I'm like, It's fine. I don't I'll watch them because I'm quite happy to have art and Harry Styles on my school page nine with my daughter when my daughter borrowed my phone. She started looking at this was like about a year ago. I think she was a kid these row, you know, row bucks, whatever. It's all very robust. Alright. And she was looking at some room examples or something. And then I looked at my Explore page, and then all of a sudden, it's full of women. We mean, you know, little clothes and things like this acid, this is the problem. Like, you've looked at that and it's gone. What does the person who's looking at this want to look at? Or if they don't wanna look at but what you know, and then it's such a unrealistic female body types and things like this, and I use it as a, as a way to have a discussion, you know, with her about these filters, because I'm guilty of doing it too, right? Yeah, not every like, not every post I put on my feed is, is 100% natural with no no lighting tweaks or something like that. But like, Come on, we live in a day and age and there's nothing wrong with trying to show your flattering, you know, more flashy stuff. Some of them are just want to say then there's nothing on there. There's no filter. It's just done straight from my thing. Because, yeah, I'm not trying to sell cosmetics or whatever. It's my artwork. Yeah. But then, hopefully, if I'm doing a real or something, then what? Yeah, I'm guilty. Yeah, that's the thing, too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look the way that you want to present yourself, either. Like, I had some photos done recently, because I'm releasing a new album next year, or hopefully this year. And I got some photos done and, and the lady that did them is like a proper portrait photographer. So she's telling me like, put your chin out and drop it down, and then lean forward and all this. And I'm like, I know, I'm going to look, I'm going to look better, because my double chin is not going to come out. Like this is okay. Because this is I mean, it's a it's a technique, I suppose to make you look more appealing, I don't know. And I thought when I was doing it, I thought is this bad, but I'm not just standing like a normal person. And he said, we get shamed into doing this. This is the thing that you say you're guilty if and Badgett and I always if someone says, You look great, I'm the first one to say it's a filter, you know, and I think we've got to stop doing that. Because the the celebrities or whatever the Instagram influencers, they're not being forthcoming with that information. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, even the amount of airbrushing, like I didn't realize too, I don't know how long ago when, maybe 10 years ago when all this big thing come out about the airbrushing that we're using in magazines and all that I was just like, Ah, so they're not that perfect. Like, you know, you have this moment of you think that because you cuz I don't know, they there's these these people that exist in the world that are absolutely flawless, you know, but maybe, maybe they're pretty good, but no one's absolutely perfect. You know, when you zoom right into your pores like no one is that perfect. That's the thing with the models and things like that in your teen magazines and we didn't have internet when I was little we had all these teen magazines are just 17 all that kind of stuff right? Read that but they would airbrush all the girls have these flawless skin and now you're like 1415 with a breakout and you know with a Tash? And it's like, well, where's, you know, where are these people and I just an anomaly, but then you're looking around your friends at school and you're like, yeah. But I'm saying that too. Like when I had these photos time, the photographer asked me if she wanted, she said, Do you want me to airbrush out some of you? You know, yeah, it's close feed or whatever. And I was like, no, because that's me, you know, like, I don't know, I just felt like, okay, you can make me look more flattering. Physically, that's fine, but don't take away my character. You know, like, that's, you know, all these guys into my art and my creating, like, if I hadn't experienced life, I wouldn't have these lines to show it and I wouldn't have the story. I know it is. It is hard. And when you put your face on something, say like your music, it's a bit like a book cover. In a way, you know, somebody's gonna look at your album. And now the first thing they'll judge you on isn't by the contents because they can't see it. They can't hear it. You know, they don't know. They might not know your backstory There literally is like taking that first image of you and making that decision if they want to press play on the you know, on a thing or I don't know Do people CDs anymore? I don't know. I still get them printed. But yeah, I mean, this is the thing like that's, this is the photo, right? So that's it. That's what they see. From that they have to decide if they like my music or not. Yeah, likely they have bad luck like it though. I like that. It's really nice. It's really approachable. It's an approachable photo, you know? And if that I don't, I haven't listened to music, but Um, now I would get that it was more uplifting so you're not like a sole key like I don't know you might be but from that Yeah, I think it's like kind of more like uplifting rather than yeah depressing doom and gloom that's that's you look at you go you're like the Analyze of this and that's it think as a woman we are totally judged on more of our appearance and like you can't win because honestly, if you show too much flesh, you're told that you're selling out or you're doing this. If you're too conservative, then you frumpy and, and, you know, I had a negative I don't get trolled, like I might do after this. But I don't get out. You know. I think and I'm not controversial. I don't have like, I don't share strong opinions or strong views. I keep it like, no politics, no religion. No, you know, because it's not, that's not what my my painting is about. It's about making people happy rather than provoking or, you know, any kind of I got trolled. A while ago, the photo was new. And I live in Singapore, right? It's hot, it's sweaty. I live in shorts. And like needle, I have a little you know, singlet tops or little T shirts. Because it's boiling. It's like 33 degrees. And hardly anybody wears anything. It's just day to day. And the photo I was in, I was just wearing what I was wearing that day. So I haven't got changed or done anything special for it. Just what this is what I've been wearing. While I've been painting, I'll just sit in front of it and take picture. Somebody wrote, Wow, good job setting back women painters, 50 years. But the thing is, didn't realize their comment is setting. That is not me, because there's a word entitled to wear whatever I want. But also wearing Sports Shorts. You go to a fitness page, like are these women getting like, you know, they're wearing a sports bra? I wasn't wearing a sports bra. But if I was, you know, I'm allowed to. And I think a comment like that just shows where that person is in their mentality. Like this, they are in this in their being they are the ones holding it back because they continue to think like that, you know, they made a decision to see you like that because that's how they're feeling about it. You know, I was strange because it wasn't it wasn't a sexual but even if it was, but it wasn't. But you know, it's like still like, it's my prerogative. I mean, if a woman wants to show her body, it's like it's up. It's up to them. I'm not going to go through and the Internet, I'd be there for weeks. You know, just being negative comments on anybody who's scantily clad for for male, female, or transgender whatever, there's so much flesh on display on Instagram. But if you're looking for that, I wouldn't say Come to My Account changing tack just slightly I want to ask you about the concept of mum guilt. I mean, we call it mum guilt here. I don't know if you have the official hashtag mum guilt over there. But yeah, have you come across that sort of interview with your art like that taking that time for yourself? Do you have those feelings of I should I should be with the kids or that kind of stuff? Yeah, actually, when I started painting that property painting, I waited until the kids were in bed. It's like, you know, painting till like midnight. Because I was high choir. I don't want it to take away my time with the kids. So I was Yeah, I was doing it cramming in. So instead of time where I should have been probably relaxing. It was like now I've got to gotta create content. Keep going in on these things, it's quite good in a way because you know, you have to create content. So it pushes you to make that schedule and make sure you're showing up so it stops you kind of slipping away and think, Oh, I'm a bit busy at the moment. It's just taking some time finding some time because you don't even have to do anything massive or spectacular. Honestly, like I do. arted this year doing abstract faces, right and small with a three paper. And I'm just doing them as this busy extended visit this year, I got lots of stuff coming up and government wisdom teeth out this week I know I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to go into the studio and do massive pieces and things that I'm gonna have to take easy. So, I mean, my three paper and some paints here, I can find some time to do something. Small, and weed. Now the kids are older, and so they're all at school and stuff. So it don't feel the guilt. But when I was in traveling, this has nothing to do with guilt. Right? So he's kind of all but if I do this show, and I go, Well, I'm gonna be way I'm gonna be in a different country away from my kids. Whereas Yeah, if you're, if you're a man, that's your job, you just travel a lot. I'm not saying they don't also, you know, don't feel guilty, because it'll be a lot of men that travel and they don't want to, you know, they didn't want to, but you know, whatever to go wherever the money is, and whatever. But yeah, you do feel that, oh, I'm away from my kids, I'm gonna rush back and get back, you know, get back to the kids and, like, whatever. But what makes it all worth it, it will not be worth it. It's like how, when they're over it now. But when I first started when I started selling, they were so proud. And they're so excited. And they only tell the teachers on my mom's and our tears. There's a middle son's was asking me if I'm famous yet. Many YouTube subscribers, you know, people have an audience. I'm like, No, I don't have that. I'm not I'm not famous. You know, it's different, different measurements, but I like that now they have that. But now if I sell it, okay to my daughter, I'm still going to be like yeah, it's good. That's something you know, and, and inspiring debt to, to be more creative. And I think then growing up in a household that has a lot of art is a really nice, really nice way to grow up like books as well. It's shocking how many, how many houses don't have any books, we have loads of books and art, I think, super important. None of us are that musical. I wish we were I wish we were I never learned an instrument. I feel like probably not going to now. The ship has sailed. Kids do music at school. And apparently, my daughter's quite promising. Her teacher was saying that she's you know, she's just showing some, some promise and music. Because it would be nice if one of them did something musical, you know, just got the clarinet out or something that's like just careful what you wish for my son is learning the bagpipes. So yeah, at the moment, he doesn't have a bag at home, but he has the charter. So we'll be watching the television. And he will just walk down the passage and just stand there in the lounge. Like I'm putting on a show right now. And my husband, I'll just be like, Hi. But yeah, sort of saying careful what you wish for because you end up with that clarinet in your head at four o'clock. Who isn't gonna change things? We're not like, Wait, we're not really really super pushy parents either. Because my mom and dad are so laid back like so laid back. They never pushed us to do anything. Yeah, he's on with it. And I think it's quite good. Because I think self motivation is really important. And if you're having every aspect of your life and managed, you don't have that it's like oh, now it's guitar lessons. Now it's Chinese now. It's extra maps. It's like, yeah, you're not allowing yourself to ever have a moment of what shall I do with my life? Like what should i How should I entertain myself? There's always things that you think you should be doing, like you know, I joined Tik Tok and YouTube and then and Twitter and then there's just not enough minutes in the day to do them to just do them all. We just never do anything. Yeah, I basically I stick to I love eating grant, that's my favorite social medium. And I did, I looked at tick tock and I thought, Oh God, I could spend all day just looking at stuff on here and not do anything else. So you do, obviously, I stopped, I've stopped looking at it. Because the algorithms, they know what you kind of want to look at. And then if you look at a few videos, then it was just showing me non stop videos that were making me kind of angry. And it's like, Oh, this isn't this is what the problem was some social media is that it does that doesn't it? And it can make you kind of feel angry about something. And I'm like, I don't want to be watching this and feeling angry chick leaves, you tend to scroll just before you go to sleep. Yeah, and then filed up, you know about issues to do with women, because he knows it's like, it's like, oh, she's got some feminist, you know, feminist views. So give her like, non stop feminist stuff. And then I'm just getting really angry and like, you know, the damn The thing is like, with kids, like no one really prepares you either for what your support is like, and I really struggled. I'm somebody who really enjoys alone time, like, you know, very comfortable in my own time and my own space. And if I'm with people all the time, drives me just insane. I just need some time to just be away for people not talk. And like a very social antisocial person. But then all of a sudden, you've got something with you 24 hours a day. And, and you know, I've never had a baby, I remember them sending me home with her. And I was like, hey, what, you know, I've never had one. All right. Me, me. What happens, you know, needs medical attention. And is that feeling was like, well done. Good job. Off you go. Yes, your person to take home. It's so crazy. And you're going from being able to go to the loo and have a shower and a coffee or just whatever, go to Sainsbury's or you know, a supermarket and just browse the home, or items or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my god, get in there now get go, go, go, go go grab the essentials, and cheese screen read off because she's suddenly decided she's starving. Then you've got to drop the trolley and then run off to find somewhere. It's like, your bow. I mean, it's just completely different. Just just just like that overnight. Yes, completely. Yep. It's like, Yeah, I had this feeling when I when I left hospital. I thought you saw that I can? Am I Am I okay, doing this? Like, do you don't want to like vet me to make sure it's okay that I can actually do this. Like, if you were adopting, you'd have to add it. So assumption that you'll know what to do. I'm in with this woman. I was because I was very. Yeah, I hadn't been around a lot of kids. When I had my first child. I didn't really know what I was mean, no one knows what they're doing. But I literally didn't know what to do. And I was barfing give gave the baby's first bath. And I was like, have like, how do I wash him? Like, what? Like, how hard do I press? Like, what do I do? And this nurses, just listen to your intuition. You'll know what to do. And I thought, no, but I actually don't know what to do. With you, they're meant to show you in the hospital was like, Oh, no. And there was this, oh, my God, this thing, this sign? Because like, I'm a very, like, I like to know, structure. And like, I'm not as bad now. But when I had when I had Alex, it was like, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Like, what might what to expect with this kid? Like, how's it going to work? How often do I feed him? How long is he going to be sleeping for? And this nurse said to me off every baby's different? And I thought, well, that's a great answer, isn't it? That tells me nothing. And then it's true. Is true, because some of them sleep. Some of them don't. Some of them get colleagues, some of them. It wasn't until I started to work, I work start to work in childcare when Alex went back to school. And I just went, Oh my gosh, now I understand that. She told me but at that time, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do. And of course, no one can tell you what to do. Because no one knows what your kid's gonna be like. I didn't read any of them books either. You know, I just I'm just like, Jenny, what? They don't want to be stressed out by schedule. I'm not somebody who's a brace schedule. I'm totally unscheduled, you know, into the point where it's like, I forget what my schedule is all the time. So I get phone calls. Aren't you supposed to be here now? I'm like shared So I didn't want to be worried about like, Fiji, which I'm Devon and then this time, and it wouldn't have worked with Isla anyway, because I pretty much gaffer taped her onto my chest all day, because that is just what where she wanted to be, and I just didn't do anything else. And my husband would take her so I could just get a break. Yeah, it's like, because as soon as she's on me, she was just routing routing routes all the time. Like, me, basically, is that like a giant passerby? Yeah. Like, it's like, can you have it for a bit and he was so good in the way that he would always as soon as he was there, we would take her and, and it always allowed me to get some rest. I mean, he couldn't do the night feeds. They just refuse. We tried. We tried. I tried, like, you know, the bottles and things just so I could. I was woken up anyway. And I'm somebody, I'm awake. It takes me a really, really long time to get to sleep. So I could then hear him struggling to try and get her to have it and I'm just not it's just not worth it actually, because it's not it's not getting anywhere. I'm not getting any more rest and it's just as as a mommy, you have that. It's a horrible trigger, isn't it? That when you feel hear your baby crying is a primitive, primordial like anxiety that you just triggers like now I can hear a newborn baby crying I'm like Oh, my God, my God. It's just really good. Set all your instincts like heightened alert. Yep, absolutely. And then the physical like your body starts to you start to leap because it's like, right, yeah. I happened in I was in target one time. Alex mom was looking after him when he was a baby. And I heard this baby cry two hours across next minute. My boobs when I'm just like, that's not even my kid. Crying in the shower, and it wasn't even then like you're right. It's like, no, no, no. You know, there's no no, but we have with with my kids. My husband wasn't there. Showering becomes a real luxury. And I remember being trying to shower like a lightning speed. Tape my middle son in a baby bouncer like literally facing me while I'm in the shower. And I'm trying to sing to him. And I'd be like, you know, keeping really happy. It's just like puce in the face. Just so angry to hear you out. So you can see me and obviously can see the boobs. outraged. But little things like that showering, saving yourself. Honestly, either yourself, like, just Adam, my husband would take island just so I could have my food. Yeah, this little things like that. You can't even eat shower, go to the loo like, it's just so relentless. And it's just not prepared for it. Nothing, nothing can prepay for it now. And that's the thing to even if people do try and prepare you for it, you just dismiss it because you get a heart. It can't be that they're not you know, because you've got no idea. wouldn't matter what anybody told you. I remember reading a book and it said about what to do if your baby's fussy or whatever. And I was like, I didn't need to read this, my baby's gonna be perfect. You know, like, just total blissful denial what's about to happen to me, You do kind of think to yourself why like, mostly, this one's gonna love it to none of mine slept No, they were over to just is, it just is what it is, is what it is. I mean, you hear, I've got friends who've got kids that were like five and didn't, you know, didn't sleep through. So you just got to be grateful with your, you know, but my middle, my middle son, he used to get colic and stuff. And that was really horrible. So I was trying to feed him that, you know, the great water and in for coal and all that stuff. Because the worst thing was, even when he was asleep, he would make these noises. So I'd be trying to sleep and I've got this kind of like, you know, little rising thing, and he never wanted to not be close to you. So there was none of this sleeping, you know, in a Bayes net, like, there or like in a car, so I didn't feel comfortable having him in my bed, either. Because I'm worried about suffocating him, especially when you're so tired, that he's just exhausted, I worried like, What if I fall asleep in that role on him or something? So what we did is we took the side of his car and now you can buy these, you know, great inventions, we can actually stick them up at the side of the car and just put it right up against my bed and I had to sleep half hidden his cot half in my bed. And as soon as he was asleep I try and retract you know so like this like a ninja trying to take my spike, but he just sensed it. They sent it like just no longer. Yeah. And I'd wake up and I could barely move my neck and my arm be like dad like pins and needles. Yeah, the things we have to do Hey. Yeah, and they won't remember any of it. Probably for the best to be honest. What those early years, early months or so, so fundamental in a kid's development, like, if you don't do the right things, then never those connections are never formed. And that person never developed the way they're supposed to. So all those little things that you did like all the silly talk, and all the you know, the smiles and all that it's so authentic, and all the code and I think that's it you feel stressed by? Because you feel like you should be doing so many things. Like you know, when you've got a new phone, especially if you've got a toddler as well, it's really it's really difficult. That those cuddles in those first district so quick, like six weeks and it's different, right? Yeah. When tiny, tiny, tiny, and just having those moments like cherish but this snuggled up on you and they smell nice. There. And, you know, it goes so fast. He really does it, really. But my daughter now she's 12 she's gonna be 13 this year, she's the same height as me. She's gonna be taller than me. I'm not I'm not that tall, though. So it's not that hard. But, you know, she's already so grown up. Like, I think people always say, oh, kids are so grown up these days. I think probably, I don't think I think that's probably the same. They just have access to more information these days. That's the best the difference. We didn't have it connected to the world. Yeah, yeah, we just didn't have that. The big piece of me looking at it in my sport shorts. It's, it's called Making my claim. And that was the whole the whole thing about like ties into the feminism and just saying, like, I'm here, like, I'm a woman, I'm here. I'm a mother. You know, I'm of a certain age, society kind of discards you, when you reach a certain age. In a way, it's the same that I'm making my claim. I'm here. I want to be a contender. And have the ambitions is something that's often you know, it's kind of, oh, she's ambitious, too. You know, it's like in negativity. When it comes to a woman. They say, It's okay to be ambitious. Like, it's okay. You should be good. And it's okay to put your own your own needs. Not above everybody. I don't believe that. It's like, oh, my needs first because I'm a mother and No, but my needs are there, though. They're there. And then we met, it shouldn't be the chocolate into this because that's just not how it's just not how any family. Yeah, it's the same with like, you know, a kid you can't get your needs matter above everybody else's, like all the time, because you're gonna grow up with this kind of little dictator. Compromising like compromising just so everybody's living, you know, nice, happy, happy. Exactly. Everyone's getting their needs met, but no one to the detriment of anyone else. And it's, you're not setting Anyone up for, you know, failure through their life by think making them think that they they're up here and everyone else is down here. And, you know, ya know, it's like about going to what you want everything as well. And that understanding that not everybody's on the same, you know, not everyone's running the same race, as well as there's things that you can be a really hard worker, but you'll never get to the point that somebody else will be more privileged perspective will reach it's just not it's just not how the world works. And that's, that's just it. It's horrible. And we're fighting for change. We're fighting for, you know, saying just by being present on social media and having a platform being a woman and showing our faces and showing our art and encouraging other women to do the same then at least we're doing a little bit to get it in the right direction. Absolutely. And the more more people that do it, it just, you know, it just builds on itself and just keeps keeps going and going to one day it happens yeah. Somebody said to me recently who's your main competitor, like in Singapore and tell me I'm touched is because he can't, if someone likes a piece you can't go up while they're in the process of buying someone else's piece and be like, weather my mind they just see, there's no such thing as competitors, you can be like, better known, so you'll fight for your spec market, because we have to, you know, it's like that. But you can't, you can't fight to be, you know, for somebody to buy a piece that they're going to buy someone else's. And it's like, actually, this is quite unique in that way. This what we're doing as artists, we really, really support each other. Yeah, yeah. And learn from each other as well. There's so much learning and I say, actually, I learned so much from Instagram, like, full of inspiration, getting inspired all the time. So I did a post recently, I have to say, like, you know, massive props to all the artists that are doing that stuff together and giving it to us for free. You know, it's, it's free, and we can see not just a couple of paintings a year a show. Yeah, you know what I wish we would have done 10 years ago, whatever. Yeah. thing that you'd be posts from people's people's practice. It's, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. And it's been such a pleasure chatting with you squint so lovely. We could chat all day. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jo Maloney Australian singer, songwriter and musician S3 Ep94 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My final guest for Season 3 is Jo Maloney, a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne Victoria, and a mum of 3 boys. As a child she saw any raised platform as a stage, and would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu, it was the moment Jo knew she wanted to be a singer. Jo has enjoyed an extensive voice career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After 9 years of gigging the pub and corporate scene she relocated to London where eventually she found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn’t until she moved to Melbourne in 2012 after 10 years in London with 3 kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 that she decided that she wanted to try her luck at writing her own music. It’s only been in the last 4 years-just before Cover and now that her 3 children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort. Under the guise of Dragnfly Industri, her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop- infused instrumentals, Jo released her debut single Ghost last year, it reflected Jo's life of once believing that dreams are risky and unattainable and only for the lucky few, to realising that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and a core fanbase alike, winning the Real Songwriters of Melbourne Community Award, as well as earning a Top 5 spot in RSOM’s song of the year. 2023 will see Jo continue to embrace her development, set to release a self-produced debut EP in late 2023 as well as a slew of new singles. Jo exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions, find your legacy and live your purpose every day. Jo - Instagram / Music Podcast - instagram / website Jo's music used with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening all around the world. My guest this week is Joe Maloney. Joe is a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, and she's a mom of three boys. As a child, Joe saw any race platform as an opportunity to perform. It was his stage, and she would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu. Joe knew it was the moment that she wanted to be a singer. Joe has enjoyed an extensive vocal career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After nine years successfully gigging the pub and corporate scene in a covers band, she relocated to London, where she eventually found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn't until Joe moved to Melbourne in 2012, after 10 years in London, with three kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 That she decided that she wanted to try a look at writing her own music after being inspired as a 14 year old. By a 16 year old Debbie Gibson song lost in your eyes. It's only been in the last four years just before COVID And now that her three children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort under the guise of dragonfly industry. Her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop infused instrumentals, Joe released her debut single ghost last year. It reflected Joe's life of once believing that dreams are risky, and unattainable, and only for the lucky few to realizing that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and core fanbase alike, winning the real songwriters of Melbourne community Award, as well as earning a top five spot in the real songwriters of Melbourne Song of the Year. 2023 We'll see Joe continue to embrace her development. She's set to release a self produced debut EP in late 2023, as well as a slew of new singles. Joe exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions. Find your legacy, and live your purpose every day. Throughout this episode, you'll hear Joe's music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's the final episode in Season Three of the podcast I know you walking through wilderness feeling lost on the ground, darkened scaly is a fever in chest cause you always thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's such a pleasure to meet you and put a face to the to the voice. Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here Allison. Yeah, it's lovely. And your whereabouts are you in Australia? So I'm based in Melbourne? Yep. I just outside of Melbourne. Yeah, in Larabee. So I guess it's western suburbs. So yeah. My nana used to live in hoppers crossing. Okay. Yeah, there we go. How long have you been in? Where before? I only eight years. I'm not originally from Melbourne. I'm actually, I've kind of been all over really. But I guess I spent most of my childhood up in New South Wales, just south of Port Macquarie. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, really, really lovely spot. My mum and dad is still up there. And it's yeah, it's it's beautiful to go home. I wouldn't say to home, I've lived there for a long time. But it's beautiful to go and see them and have a holiday as well, because it's right by the beach. And so I've only been I've been in Melbourne for 10 years, but I've been in wherever for eight. Yeah, yeah. But isn't Port Macquarie, like the place in Australia that has the most number of like really good weather days or something? Is that salutely No idea. Someone told me that once because we're I mean, Matt Gambia and the weather is just fair. I mean, you'd be familiar with that being in Melbourne. It's pretty Yeah. Yeah. And I remember watching one day about the weather. And they said, I'm sure they said Portland quarry had like, because I said, I just want it to be like 25 degrees with sunshine. Like, is that too much to ask? And they're like, Yeah, I know. I don't think it's quite like that up there. Certainly not. Now. I think they get very, very hot and humid up there. Now. I think it's definitely a lot more humid than what it used to be when I was living there. So it might it may have been like that once upon a time. Tell me about your music. You are a musician, a singer songwriter? How did you first get into music? When do you have this moment of like recalling when you sort of first discovered music? Ah, I remember always being a show off. Right from sort of being kind of like three, four years old. I loved being the center of attention. And I think a lot to do with the fact that not only was I the oldest child, but I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of the family. Yeah. The distinct memory I really have is, every time I saw like a raised platform, I was singing, whether it be my grandparents balcony, or the front veranda of their house. So I can remember being in a shopping center and like seeing sticks somewhere. And I'd be on the steps thinking my little heart out because it felt like a page. And I don't think it was like, watch me, this is what I can do. It was just something that I gravitated towards. When I saw the movie Xanadu. That was the moment that it it clicked for me that I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I want to sing I want to I want to just be this person that just sings and is beautiful and and I was obsessed with that movie for such a long time growing Yeah, absolutely obsessed. My, my whole family would still tell me to this day, how long I would spend swinging on a swing, singing Xanadu hours. The first time I think I felt like I really wanted to be a songwriter was when I was about 14 I think back in the late 80s. And there was a 14 year old singer songwriter named no she was 16 Sorry, Debbie Gibson. Oh yeah. And I fell in love with her song lost in your eyes. And I thought, Ah, I would love to play the piano and sing like that. And so I tried to emulate that for a few few years. And then I think I just got too nervous with writing and just fear of judgment. And so I just decided I was just going to be a singer. And I actually put away the songwriting for a really really long time and only identified as a vocalist. So it's only really been actually in the last three or four years that I've started who want more and think actually, I think there's more in me than just being a singer. And that was when I actually started to really take some writing seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying, like completely. You it's like, I don't know, like, it's almost like life's happening around you, like you have your kids and you're growing up, and there's all this other stuff happening. And it's like, you sort of have forget that you have these skills almost, excuse me, that you actually used to write when you're a kid, and then all of a sudden go, why am I doing that anymore? You know? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, because it comes writing comes from somewhere else. And singing and performing is such an outer thing. It's what's on the outside writing is what is on the inside. And it's learning. For me, it was learning to tap into that, because I had spent such a long time living outside of myself. And so that's been a whole new experience for me, which has been really, really exciting just to find my dip. With it all. And I still don't feel like I've quite gotten there yet. I think. I mean, no one really ever gets to that destination, do they? Where they're like, right? Yes. I've got it all figured out. Yeah. But that in itself is pretty exciting, isn't it that you've, you're on this journey. And I'll make for one of the better word. If one uses that with you. And you're like, you're learning these things about yourself. And you're discovering more and more and you know, like, from what you're just saying there, you know, there's more there. And that's pretty exciting. Isn't that? Absolutely. Yeah, it is it is. It's like going on an adventure. Yeah. And I try and use the word Safari because it can get pretty wild in there. That's a cool analogy. Dude. Cuz, yeah, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Stop with the music that you're writing. Now, what's your sort of, I guess your inspiration coming from? Um, I think a lot of it is. From music theater, I've realized. I listen to a lot of music theater and a lot of power vocalists as a teenager as well. And I think I, at this point in time in my life, I think I try and write like that. Even though I don't feel like I have that kind of voice. It's just I suppose it makes it easy for me to concoct a story in my head and visualize what I'm trying to write about. So, yeah, I like to sort of think of it now as being a bit more music theory or music theater oriented. Yeah, quite dramatic. I think I have a bit of a dramatic voice very dynamic. So I tend to like to have lots of dynamics in my songs with lots of little quiet bits, and then really sort of loud. Yes. And, yes, so at this point in time, that's, that's the influence for me. And it took a little while for me to realize that because I was just writing, I was just writing what I was hearing in my head and not really attaching any label to what or any genre. And now the more I think about it, that's where it comes from, I think, yeah, cool. So I think that's the awesome thing about writing your own songs, you can pick where you want the key to B, you can pick the range, and like you said, you can really like accentuate those like really exciting parts of your voice like using the dynamics that's something I've think's really cool even though it I think, clicked into right most of my songs in the same key are so many people do and I I sometimes do as well. I think it just kind of puts because as being vocalist, you know where your voice naturally said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is it's a lot. It's really easy to fall into that trap of oh, just writing in D major. I know it sounds good. Yeah, that's pretty. Good sled down with a young Do you have a day job or is music, everything that you do in your life? Music, I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate that aside from mothering music is the other thing in my life, my husband, and has been insanely supportive of me focusing on music. Because he knows that's what makes me happy. And I, he, he actually wouldn't want me to, to go and do another job. Because every time I come to him and say, Hey, I've been offered this and I and he'll be just like, is that really it? Are you gonna have time? Like volunteering for my kids basketball, like to be the manager of my kids basketball team. And, like, seriously, it's not going to take that long and not take that much time out of my week. So he does get very quite protective of my music. Fear, I suppose you could say so yeah, I'm really, really fortunate that music is is the be all and end all for me, which is great. No hobby at this point in time. But I have I have done some gigs and earn a little bit of money from it, which has been nice. So it's just building on that. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, isn't it? It's a it is a constant. Like you said, it's a safari, it's like it's an adventure. So tell me about your kids. How many kids have you got? I've got three boys. One wants to remain nameless. So I have Max who just turned 13. Last week this week. And I've got twin boys. So Zach, and twin one. And they are 11. So three boys. Yeah. And a set of twins in there. Like that's pretty cool. in there as well. Yeah. So for a little while. I had three and a two for about six weeks. Straight. Oh, man. Yeah. Thankfully, for that whole time. We were over in London at the moment that at that point in time, the kids were all born over there. Were in hospital for three weeks, my husband had the luxury of working for himself and was able to take time off to be with Max while I had to go into the hospital every day. And then my parents actually flew over for six weeks as well. So I think really for the and then my husband was able to take some more time off work. So for the first three months of the life, I had help around me, which was amazing. And then everyone's life just kind of went back on track. And I was at home with three little ones. I can ask a question. So you had you had the twins, after you already had one child? Is it better or worse? Because some people have said this. It's better like their grandpa had twins first because I didn't know what they're in for. Is it better or not worse? Because you know what I mean? But what was the perspective? Yeah. For me, obviously, I can only go by my experience. For me. I am glad that I had the twin second. Because I felt like Max was a really tricky baby. I felt like he never really settled properly for the first six months anyway. And you know what it's like when you're a first time mom, and the moment they're crying, you're thinking, what's wrong? What what do I need to do? Yeah, when I had the twins, I had no choice sometimes, but to leave one of them to cry. I be kinda you know what, you're fine. I'm sort of elbow deep in your brother's nappy at the moment. And I felt it was more about micromanaging the three of them. Yeah, right. More than anything else, but in terms of them as babies and me as a mother and then being second. I feel very fortunate that they were actually second because I felt a lot calmer and a lot more confident as a mum. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I don't I honestly having I do remember one night and I tell this this story a lot to people where I think one of the twins had been crying maybe for two hours, they just wouldn't settle. And just as he settled, his brother decided to kick off. And so when you think oh, great, awesome, you're about to go to sleep. That's great. It's midnight. Okay. Yeah, I can go to bed and the other one kicks off and, and I remember being upstairs and, and they were still in like my baskets. Picking up the basket, trudging downstairs to my husband, who was feeding the other twin who'd settled and just been saying to him, I am so sick and tired of crying babies. I'm just sick of it. And there were definitely moments like that where I just thought it's just too much the feeding I at night time. I remember not doing as the books telling you to do where if you feed one child, one twin wake the other one up to feed. I remember just thinking, oh my god, I'm so tired. The moment you fall asleep, I'm gonna go back to bed but which was so stupid, because half an hour later, the other ones woken up anyways. So I've never ever noticed sleep deprivation like that i So even as unsettled as Max was as a baby. I certainly didn't have the sleep deprivation with him like I did with Zach. I couldn't talk. I couldn't. I couldn't string a sentence together. I was just that tired. And that was yeah, that was pretty tough. Even with help for the first few months. Yeah, gosh, it's full on. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And also managing, as I said, managing the three of them. I did a lot of reading about that. Before that came along. And you have absolutely no control on managing your children. When you're out and about we look like an absolute circus. Walking around. It was just me and this wall of children I had, I'd usually have Max and Zach in the stroller. And I'd had because he was really tiny when he was born I'd had strapped to me. So it'd be like baby on my chest. Two little ones in front of me and just walking. And it wasn't a like a front and back pram. It was a side by side. Yeah. Yeah, I was literally a circus everywhere I went. And so people would often stop me obviously, as they do they see twins, or I'd have both twins in the stroller and Max, I'd be holding my hand, people would gravitate to the twins. And it's initially and oh twins and Lincoln, Irene, which is fine. But inevitably they score. How old are they and books but always say that this is going to happen. And to always include your oldest child first in the conversation and say, Well, I have max here. He's too Zakka. Whoever meant sold, they were but again, people would then say to max, oh, you're a fake brother, Aren't you lucky, you've got twin brothers. And he's not stupid. He wasn't stupid back then. And he knew immediately that this conversation is still about them. And it's about me. So for that first kind of 12 to 18 months for Max was very difficult as well, because he just hated being stopped. He got to a point where I'd pick him up and he'd be grabbing my face. And he'd be saying, Go, go, go, go now go because he just hated it. Yeah, totally understandable, because I left out and what what can you do as a mother in that situation when other people's actions are beyond you? And that's it. You're trying your best, you know, you're saying, you know, you're including him, but people are just still when, you know, twin land and all lost in our heads. And yeah, that's one isn't it for a little filler like that? Yeah, yes. He has he recovered from that, or does he still feel? Yeah, right. Now, yeah, he not that he would understand just yet but I think there is a lot of trauma in him. He doesn't he he, he really sometimes is quite venomous to to one of the twins in particular. And he, I mean, look, he's a teenager now and he's going through teenage angsty sort of stuff. Very like me. I'm in terms of trying to be the black sheep of the family, which he is. And that's fine. But I do sense that a lot of his actions and a lot of what he says is some very deep trauma that, like I said, he doesn't even know exists yet. And also to, I think, I obviously was doing my very best to cope. But I was tired, I was tired. And so when I had Max in bed and wanting me to stay in cuddle him, all I could think of was, I need some time out. I, you're in bed now. And I need to walk away and just be me for a couple of hours before I go to bed. And I look back on that now and I feel terrible. But but the thing you got to look after yourself, don't you? Well, you can't look after anybody say absolutely, absolutely. My husband, very early on after having Max. Five weeks into it, I was sort of wasn't really sort of singing at the time, but I was actually managing the band that I was singing in and, and I remember being a band of I was the only female and it was blokes. And obviously, they're not really understanding what it is to be a new mum. And trying to juggle that and trying to juggle having my first child and I just remember just falling in a heat one afternoon and my husband actually saying to me, remember when you're in a plane and you have a child and those oxygen masks come down, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child. Otherwise, you're useless. It's like it's an oxygen mask. And even now, he'll still say to me, you have to put your mask on first. And it makes my day just to know the aura around and it makes my day just to see your face, then a bullet in my body ricochets and it makes my day just to see you. And it makes my day just to know that you're around and it makes my day in those those early days when you're in the thick of it. Was there any music was there an outlet for you. Um, I was very lucky in those early years when I was in London. Even though I had no family around, I had an amazing support base with other mothers that I had met at a at an antenatal class. And they they were like family, I had a couple of other friends as well who lived a bit further away. But all I needed to do was just call them day and night if I needed to. And they they would do whatever they could to get to me. So I felt incredibly supported in that way. And because I had a really lovely network of other bands that I was working for as well, I was able to I was really lucky, I was able to actually pick and choose the gigs that I wanted to do so I was wasn't doing music on a full time basis like I had been. But yeah, I was in a really really fortunate position of still gigging when I wanted to gig. And I didn't have to travel very far if I didn't want to. So it was amazing. It was when I came back to Australia was when things got tough, and I did nothing. I didn't know anyone down here the two friends that I had, he lived right over the other side. So it wasn't like I was seeing them all the time. And it was me and four walls and three little babies. And my husband was working in town so he and he was doing long hours and they jet sack took a little bit of time to walk so they weren't really essentially very mobile when it came to getting out and about. I was going to a playgroup, but the playgroup the mothers, there really weren't the people, they weren't my people. And it was just something to do. And I set up a studio in the spare room, but I didn't really do anything with it at all hardly. And I think, because I didn't have the tools to write I knew that that's kind of where I wanted to head but I still had such incredible creatives create writer's block. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know how to access that either. So not only was I not really accessing it, physically, I didn't know how to access it mentally either. So it was really tricky and it wasn't really until I turned 40 And Max It started school. And I wasn't doing any singing at all. I wasn't gigging. And I thought, right. What do I want to do? What? It's come to a turning point for me now? What do I want to do? Do I want to just keep singing covers in cover bands? Or do I want to explore something a little bit further? And that was when I decided that I wanted to start exploring, creating for myself because I hadn't done it for such a long time that I wanted. Yeah. It felt scary. And as I said, it felt wild. But I it was just kind of this internal pool for me, I think, yeah, to do it. But again, I didn't know where to start. And I actually started, I found I realized I wanted to sing in a choir for the walk. harmonies, and I thought, ah, actually, singing in a choir may write a bit right about now would be incredible. And I think it was back in 2016, the stars aligned and I found on the ABC News website, this new choir that had started up called Melbourne indie voices. Oh, yeah. And yes, yeah. And they've only just started, I think they'd started the week before. And yeah. had was with being interviewed. And I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I don't want to sing anything like that. I didn't want to go there. The whole idea of singing arrangements of songs by independent artists, I just thought, ah, that's it. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And, ah, it was so much fun. And I met some incredible people. And Sofia and Joshua partner were just so insanely or are so insanely talented. And it was just lovely to sing, again, sing with people. And so I did that for a few years. And that also did start to encourage me to start writing as well. And I was getting lots of inspiration just from seeing what fear had created with her arrangements for songs and, and yeah, that's it, that was a real inspiration to get moving with it and start just looking at how I can start, what are the tools that I can find to get me moving with it? And yeah, and then eventually, I thought, I don't, I moved on from singing in the choir, I thought I just want to invest in myself now. And COVID hips, and it was for me, it was probably the best thing ever creatively. I was able to actually, the boys were great with remote learning. And we had some hiccups with with Max the eldest for a while, but that just yeah, that just really gave me a chance to start really exploring and just through the power of social media, meeting people and yeah, so that's been that's been it really? Isn't it funny how things come to you at the right time? Like when you need stuff, and things just appear? I just love that. That's an awesome, yeah. Oh, it's something that I think I've I've really become really interested. I mean, I've been interested in it for a really, really long time. But now I'm really delving diving really deep into it is like manifestation and spirituality and meditation. And I find that I have a really, really amazing routine now of meditating in the morning and journaling and object writing and really learning about and harnessing the sun. I'm looking for just harnessing the energy to create and to open up that channel and be the antenna and take all conscious thought out of out of it all and just allow something else to take over. So yeah, so I really have this huge belief now that and as you you've probably read and adapted yourself where yeah, when you when you speak something out loud. And you have a feeling connected to that. That sentence or that voice. It does. It's an antenna. It comes to you. Yeah, it makes it real. Now Yeah, absolutely. I've had too many things in my life occur that I have wanted to happen for me to think this is not coincidence. Yeah, at all. I've called this into existence. Yeah. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Like, I remember once I remember who it was, someone told me, because at this point, I was just doing gigs. I wasn't writing, but I was just doing gigs and doing whatever just sort of floating through not really, with any sort of purpose or whatever. And someone said to me, but what, like, what do you really want to do? What do you what do you what is your focus? And I sort of had to stop and think about it? Because actually didn't know. And I thought, well, actually, I'd really like to get back into my writing. And they said, Well, what do you want to sort of achieve with your writing? And I? And I said, Well, you know, I'd like to write a couple of songs, whatever. And they said, no, no, no. Think about what you want to happen. What do you want? Like, it was, it was almost like, visualize, see yourself, in this point, doing whatever. And I said, I'd really like to write some really good songs, and have someone that's going to produce them really well. So they sound really good. And it was just like, I don't know, I just something completely shifted in me. Yeah. And it's like, now I'm just about finished this album. And I'm so happy with it. Because it's just, I don't know, it just you Right? Like when you when you put it out there and you actually allow yourself to be open. And yeah, like taking away how it's going to happen. You know, necessarily planning things down to the nth degree, whatever, you just get clear with what you want. It's amazing. Like it is amazing. Yeah, blows my mind. It does. And this is something that I'm trying to teach my children as well. So the twins responding really well to it. Yeah, Max, not so much. Yeah. That teenage isn't? Yeah. And I think also, too, it is, as I said to you before, I think it is a little bit of that trauma that's in him because he at this point, and he was always a happy child, I look at photos and he had, he was always smiling and loving life. But I, he at the moment has sort of is walking in the dark path in terms of the world is a horrible place. And there's nothing good about it. And human beings are awful to each other. And what's the point and, and so he's not wanting. And it's just the stubbornness in him as well as he's not wanting to respond or taking anything that I say about, well, whatever you look for, it's what you're going to find if you're going to look for the bad stuff. That's what that's what's going to present to you if you if you look for the good, it works for the good stuff, too. But at the moment, he's he that's not the track that he wants. And I'm not worried at this point in time. Yeah, yeah, that's part of his outlier kind of persona that he likes to revel in. And he's always liked to be that type of person who wants to walk to the beat of his own drum, which is amazing. Like, it's something that I want him to continue on. And it's, I guess, I was like, That is a child to, like, you can't tell me what I need to learn and think and do and you've just got to make the mistakes yourself. And eventually, something will click and I know that will happen with him too. And it's just him knowing that they're here to be the place that he can learn. Hmm Yeah, but it's it's true, isn't it? Yet you call it into existence, you become accountable. I think that's what it is to like when you're I think as creatives just what you were saying it's, it's almost like you and you've probably had loads of other people say this to you as well. You have to give yourself permission, don't you? Which is so stupid. To want to have those things. Yeah, to want to be the songwriter to want to have that album released and to know that you're just as deserving of that as somebody else. And it's not folly. It's not stupid. It's something that you really want to do so why can't you do it? Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that it sounds so simple. gets in the way of that it's actually yeah. I'm conscious. Mr. Something else I've been really sort of studying as well as is brainwaves and and how they affect us in everyday life. And why is it that when we're about to fall asleep is when the songs come to us and and I think from what the minimum minimal amount of research that I've done, I think your brain way seems to have a lot to do with it. When you're in a better state is when you're the most relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. When you're relaxed is when the ideas and the creativity come to you. I find, like over the years, like, like you say, when you're about to fall asleep, but also, when you're in that meditative state where you're not thinking about anything in particular, I know how many times over the years, I did a lot of yoga. And I'd get up from Shavasana. And be like, Oh, I've got the best idea. It just literally. And I think, I don't know if it was Einstein that started it was the first person to talk about this theta state and your brain the way that your brain is, and you're just Oh, okay. I can't remember that just rang a bell. As soon as you said, I thought, oh, yeah, you're going to talk about the theta state. And for some reason, I've got Einstein in my head. But yeah, it's like, you literally change your brain. That's just I don't know, because that's the thing I've always, I always find so fascinating, is how you can literally just get stuff in your head, like, yeah, it just comes in and it and it doesn't just come in like one thing. It comes in, like an entire tune and all the words and you're like, where did this come from? Exactly. Right. Yeah. It doesn't it so when, when I'll, so for my single that I released last year, and and people say oh, so what was the process? Blah, blah, blah. And when you when I tell people, it sounds so simple. It's like, oh, yeah, it came to me in 10 minutes. And it's the living daylights out of me, because that's not that's not what happens. Usually, when you sit when you write a song or create it, it doesn't always happen to you in 10 minutes. But yeah, it's funny how you could just be doing like the simplest of tasks, like sweeping the floor, or vacuuming or whatever. And I find actually hanging out washing, I get lots of ideas on a hanging of washing. Yeah, yeah. It's like those simple repetitive moves that your body just does like that muscle memory. Yes. And then brains. It's like, a walking meditation basically, like, yeah. But your brain is in that other state. Because, you know, if you sort of switched off from that, you know, the consciousness. Yeah, I wrote a song about what it what it's like to write a song. Cool. music in my head. It's literally like, like, it just, it just comes to you. Like, I think there was something in there like, I could be walking or in the shower, or, you know, wherever and like, it just comes to me like, it's just, I find it amazing. It's the worst thing. It is, is it and it is just because we're relaxed. When we try too hard. It's like we're just blocking ourselves and you feel it internally as well, don't you? You feel like your stomach's just, and your heart space is just gonna drip. Yeah. And it's open to receiving anything. I was watching an interview very quickly. On a real yesterday actually about Jack White, what you were saying about as creatives we are or songwriters, we are antennas only. And Michael Jackson said something about the fact that when we're creating we have to let God in the room. Yeah, and I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I get that I get that. We have to just let the energy come to us all. Yeah, you can't force control. Yes, you can't. But as soon as you start to force stuff, it's like you're literally banging against that. Yeah. It's like, like you said, you close off. That vessel is is not a thing. Yeah. It's amazing. I love it. I do I, I am I over COVID. I remember giving myself a challenge to write a song in 24 hours, I was sort of all about the challenges at the time. And because it was it was making me accountable. And it was helping me manage my time. And I already had a bit of the chorus anyway, but I didn't know what to put around it. So I thought, right, I'm gonna write a song 24 hours. And the next day happened. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a second verse. It was that dreaded second verse didn't know what to do. And I was putting so much pressure on myself. And eventually I just thought, right, I'm gonna go for a walk. Actually, no, I'm gonna go for a run. And I went for a run and I came back and bam, there was my second verse. All of it. I did certainly. Well, one time I was writing. Pardon me. I just went for a walk. And I don't usually take my phone with me like I leave at home because I like to not be distracted and I don't like to listen to music when I'm walking. I like to just appreciate the world and hear the birds and you know, whatever. Yeah, and I literally wrote the song. And I was like, Oh, damn, I don't have anything to write it down or Oh, no. So I was like, repeating repeating it repeating it repeating. The house was like Don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Clearly good. All right, good. Oh, I can relate. I can that's a hard relate there. Yeah, it's, uh, I was talking to someone else on this podcast. Katie Callahan actually is a singer songwriter in in the United States. And we were sitting here. And like, sorry, like, in the middle of not the middle of the night, but that moment where you, you about to fall asleep, and you get stuff and you're like, I have to record that I have to get that down. And like she'd have a phone. And she'd like, be hiding in the bathroom something to remember. And then you listen back to it, and you let that understand myself. I've got so many little notes on my phone of just random. Random so or I'll whistle it or try and whistle blowing into the microphone. Oh, God. Oh, absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I do the same thing. I'm like, I write down to the lounge room and get settled the same thing. And then as you said, yeah, the next morning and like, Yeah, but that feeling when you finally get it down, and then you can relax is like the best feeling in the world. Like, I don't have to keep this in my head anymore. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess it's that that age old thing where like the tighter you grip onto something, the easier it is for it to slip out out every fingers. Want it to leave me? I get like that sometimes. I had one the other day where I literally had a song in a dream. I was singing the song in my dream. But do you think I could get it back? No. That's so frustrating, isn't it? Sure. It was a really really good song to cage that's around you. So locked inside there's a voiceless paradise to break them. And then he's the stories of like Paul McCartney dreaming yesterday. And that's how do you do that? I know that that's yeah, he's pretty special. I think he's awesome. I'm a big Beatles fan. But Paul's My face is Hey, see, I was listening to your I was listening to the episode with Georgia fields the other day. Yeah. And I heard the conversation between the two of you and and, and I thought to myself, John's always been my favorite. Yeah. Even though I know is that of there are things that may be called into question. Like now by Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that he was very I liked the fact that he was quite controversial. Yes, everything was very clear on the statement that he wanted to make. Yeah, yeah. He really pushed those boundaries. Sydney. Yeah. And just did not give a shit. Yeah. Why didn't anyone else thought at all? But but then looking at at just the talent of Paul and watching that that. Go back. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn't that amazing. Incredible. And, you know, you knew that obviously that they were kind of like the perceived powerhouse of the the writing side of things. But just to watch Paul, direct everybody. And it's almost like if he wasn't there. Yeah, they would just kind of be floating around and he was the focus. He was the one that was able to go right. Come on. Let's let's I tell you what, when I watched that, I watched it. And I just sat there thinking How the hell did these plugs ever get anything done? Because the amount of stuffing around I said to my husband, it's a miracle we've ever got any Beatles records because I know. Sometimes I thought, like you'd guys like I'm watching it like, you know, I've never seen footage like that, that extended footage, you know, just no learning, you know, not just cut out the nice bits or the productive bits, but just everything. It was like, holy moly. Like, I don't know, it just it really. I've just thought well, you got it friggin and then you've got Ringo sitting there on the drums virtually stoned out of his brain every day. Like, are we doing something now? Like I know exactly like him. I think but yeah, I think to like, when I was younger, before, you know, as you know, you sort of think as you grow up, you get more mature and you can understand people more, and you have more perspective, whatever. I was always really cross at Yokote. But the older I got, I just thought it was inevitable that they were going to part ways like I honestly was a miracle they did as much as they did together. Because yeah, I was so opposite. Like, the more that John basically enlightened himself. And the more that he was able to explore that there's no way he could have stayed with Paul. You know, it just made sense. And yeah, so I think any crutches anymore? Oh, absolutely. No, no, if you're listening, okay. Good. No, I 100% agree. And I think that just kind of, as you said, it comes with maturity and your own experiences as well. And understanding Oh, hang on a second. We, we aren't always the same person as we go through life. Yeah, and there are some people that we will remain in our lives, but potentially will remain in our lives in a different way or Yeah, so yeah, you do understand exactly what happened there. It was literally like, yeah, like a couple that grew apart. You know, like, yeah, that was it. But it did freak me out a bit. How she was just sitting right there when they were playing. No, I sort of felt that was, uh, yeah. I sort of and she was really sort of putting her two cents worth in from time to time who wasn't she was quite interesting. Yeah. I didn't like it. She hadn't been derangement. Yeah, I say, yeah. You had an inducement come in. Yeah. And she was the polar opposite. She's just sort of like this breath of fresh air that was just quite happy just to sort of sit there and have a chat and understand that it was Paul. Yeah. The space. Yeah, I think she's a creative, you know, with that photography side of things. So I think she got that. Boundaries, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Saying that Yoko is quite creative herself. I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing. I don't know. Now. I'm just, you know, making judgments about people that I have no idea. Anyway. Conntrack not what do you have to ask what's your favorite Beatles album? I think it's Abbey Road. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was probably the first exposure that I had to The Beatles. When I was young mum, mum, my mum had the album. And I used to love listening to octopuses garden. Yeah, love, love, love that as a kid. But as I got older, when I was a teenager, I really got into them as well. And I just I did like the fact that it was very two distinctive writing styles. Very much. John side and Paul side and, and my favorite part actually, in the whole album is Maxwell's silver hammer. I'm so glad you say that. That is my favorite. Because we actually used to think some of the Beatles songs to the boys. So we'd always sing, bang, bang Maxwell's silver hammer or Max's silver hammer. We would sing to Zack get sack. So it made me actually seem it made me listen to Maxwell's silver hammer quite intensely at a point in time. And there's this little moment. I think it's in the third second or the third verse. Paul singing it and you actually hear him laugh? Yes. Yeah. Have you heard that? Yes. You can just imagine. Yeah. What is the clowning around in the control room? Trying to make him laugh? Yeah. Oh, yes. I know. It's funny. Paul does that every now and then there's a few other songs. It sounds like he's laughing too. And I just think yeah, now that I've seen that whole you know, the whole thing, I think, oh my god, what were they doing? Like, seriously, someone's praying with their silver hammer been silly. But ya know, that happened just has some of my favorite Beatles songs. Yeah. Yeah, come together something. Oh, I just love something. And I know that was George Harrison. And the very end of the whole album with that medley Yeah, gold. I get goosebumps when I hear that like that. No, I'm getting goosebumps now. Just that that that Latin that last that last little line like the love you love you make is equal to you take it was like oh my god, it's so far cry. Yeah. And I love those last few. How many like the last few chords? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just genius. Same Oh, absolutely. And I wanted to I knew I wanted to write a song. Maybe that was something that could be like the very last song in a concert or the closer of an album like just that song that just made you want to go wow, yeah, yeah, that that's big finish that big finale. Yes. Captured in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you done that? Have you written a song like that that you feel like you've cut I felt like I felt like my single last year was a bit like that. That was what I wanted to try and achieve with that even though it was my debut single that just huge. What was that song? Was that ghost? Yeah, that's those guys. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Yeah, so I I was a co produce with another producer, I sort of I wrote it and just produce the demo and the producer that I hired basically just tightened it up and just put on some better drums and some actual organic bass and guitar and that was it really the rest of it was was all me so. So do you do it on you play the instruments? Or is it you do it on the computer? Or how do you? How do you create that? So I will start on the piano. I'm not I'm a bit of a hack. When it comes to playing the piano. I'm not that confident with it. So I do find having the access to my DAW to be really being able to talk feeling like to be able to enunciate and articulate exactly, well not exactly because I'm still learning how to use it. But it I find it a lot easier to to express what I want to actually write with, with my songs through the through the studio and have access to the layer after layer and track after track rather than just relying on a piano. Yeah. But when I'm when I'm gigging and when I'm doing open mic nights, it is just me and my piano. So I do have to I do write, I will actually compose a song, a piano part on the song that I know that I'll be able to play when I'm singing rather than just being sort of the chords. Yay, me singing over the top. But it's certainly something that I don't naturally feel comfortable and confident. It's taken a lot of work. And I'm still working with that. I mean, I actually bought a, a headset. Oh, yes. Because I just find it's so stressful when I'm playing the piano and singing in public. So not only see where my hands are on the keys, like to remember where the microphone is, and being totally conscious of where that is. And if it's sort of slot starting to slip down, or oh, I've got it in the wrong position, but I can't move it. So I'm kind of playing and thinking and then I'm making mistakes, and I just find it just too difficult. So I thought get a headset don't matter what looks like stress out of it. And yeah, yeah. Because it's quite a spatial thing to like, knowing how far away you are from a mic, like how many times I've buddy hit a mic with my teeth or because like, I've just lost track of where it is. And you know, and that's not even playing as well. That's not accompanying myself. That's just me. Right? Yeah. You turn back around and go oh, there it is. Yeah, exactly. Every morning when I wake up, I keep my eyes closed as on picture in my day, all the carbons of my body and to the touch the phone. So I want to ask you, the rules songwriters of Melbourne that you've been doing some stuff with. Tell me about that. I have, ah real songwriters of Melbourne has been a lifeline. I first got exposed to them through COVID on Instagram, as I think a lot of people did. They've been going now for nine years. They're about to celebrate their ninth birthday. But do then are who started it? And is the CEO, I guess you could say CEO. She, it's her it probably didn't take off until COVID, either, because we were all looking for something outside of ourselves that as creatives helped us to feel like we weren't alone. And I mean, I was in a very fortunate position where I hadn't lost any money I knew lots of I got to know lots of people who lost so much work. And it started out as for me as being a way that I could meet other creatives because I had no, I knew no one. Yeah. I had other mums around, but they weren't singer songwriters, or anything like that. So it was lovely to be able to start to network online. And I guess because of of the confidence that I have in myself now, just, I guess, through getting older, I found it very easy to make myself stand out, but not in a bad way and not to tread on other people's toes. But just being friendly and being supportive of other people and wanting to get to know other people and wanting to get to know other people's stories and realizing that, hey, I've got a story to tell too. And I think I could actually, I think a lot of people could who are younger than me could benefit from listening to my story. And they are amazing at being able to point you in the right direction, to releasing a song or finding in through finding information for you about the industry, the networking nights that they put on, they always have a speaker. And they've had people from publishing companies have had people from Apple or m cos they've had people from music, which Toria just all these amazing people speaking that you would not even know where to start looking. Or you wouldn't have that personal contact with them. Even if it's through an email or sending a bunch of emails or getting on DMS or whatever, then you just, and sometimes you don't even know these people exist or what they do in the music industry, because it's so complicated. There's so many different different people that do different things. And that's yeah, like, that's the thing I find a bit frustrating, like, there's no straight line of how you do stuff. Like know, whenever, like I discovered all this stuff by accident. Like just by, you know, like you register yourself with a pram cost and you can get paid when you perform. I didn't know that before, you know, and put it on the air at stuff on the radio. So the community radio he's like can get access to. And so now if I ever come across anyone who's releasing something who like I just tell them all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but do this and do this and get this number and do that. And you know, like there's just absolutely, there's no way you can go that just says this is how you do it. Yep. No, that's right. And that's something that I have found with the real songwriters. They are that that's the Yeah, that's their role. And they have released academies where people can just basically be given that timeline of what to do from the moment you start recording or even like finding a producer or finding somebody to collaborate, collaborate with and right down to promotion and release dates. And yeah, so we've been we're really fortunate here in Melbourne and even regional Victoria as well, that there is that access to all the information that you need, particularly as an emerging songwriter who is doing it on their own. Yeah, yeah, I've learned that everybody has a place at the table that it's all about collaboration, not competition, like it used to be and that's been really reassuring. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was in need. I am not going to say this in a nice way because I'm a similar age. too, but do you feel like at some point, people think you're irrelevant in music? Because of your age? No, because I don't let them. Yeah, good on you. I don't let them at all. I refuse to believe that I'm irrelevant. I refuse to sit back now and go, nope, I'm too old. And I think actually, that it works in my favor. Because I do feel very strongly about the fact that as a woman, and as a mother. We aren't irrelevant. We still have so much to say. And we probably have more to say, because we have lived more. Yeah. And I think it's our responsibility as older women to forge the path for younger women, something that I've learned a lot just in conversations that I've had with lots of other younger female songwriters. And I mean, we only only had a conversation just really recently, at a performance that I did fall real songwriters. And it was one of the other artists that we sat down, unfortunately, the conversation was interrupted, but she was asking me how old I was, How many children do I have? How old was I when I first started having children. And she said to me, she said, It's just inspirational to listen to somebody who isn't who who has had children later on in life. I mean, I was 35 when I had Macs, and she said that she had just broken up with her boyfriend, she was 29. And there was a part of her that sort of wanted to go back to him because she felt like she was going to miss out on that whole, having a child experience. And I've had lots of conversations with lots of girls who have gone like, I'm seeing my friends getting married and having babies and I'm feeling like I'm missing out. And it's just like following your heart. I'm here to tell you, it doesn't matter. There is no linear timeline as to how you do things. If you want to keep creating, everything will just fall into place. Yeah. Yeah. So I Yeah, and that's been a big thing for me. Now is to just be that advocate to go pay. I started doing this seriously. When I was 44. Yep. So it's never too late. Yeah. Yeah. No, good on. Yeah, that's great. I guess maybe? I think probably I haven't, I haven't been, I haven't been in this side of the music industry long enough to see things occur with attitudes of, I guess, the patriarchy. Having an attitude that you're done by the time you're 21. And if you haven't made it by the time you're 25, then you're no one and I haven't been exposed to that side of things. So I'm lucky that I can remain optimistic. Whereas I think there's lots of other female artists who have been in the music industry who have seen a lot more than I have. And potentially find it a lot more difficult to, to keep going. Yeah, it's interesting, I've just started working with. I mean, I knew that the music industry was literally to business, right? The commercial radio, the signing, record labels, whatever, then just for this album that I'm releasing, I've just started working with a proper rep that I've never done, I'll never forget before, because I want this, I mean, this is what I say every time I don't know if this will be the last album I get to make, you know, so I want to do it properly, I guess. And and so it's amazing. When you they sent me this this like a you know, like you have a family tree with all the bits going everywhere. It was like that of the music industry. And it's like, if you can stay away from all that other bullshit and be independent, you've got so much more chance of remaining true to yourself, not having to do with all the the white men that make all the decisions for you. Making really great connections with people in community radio, and, and getting your music to the people who will genuinely be connected to it and be being flipped not influenced by that I'm affected by it and feel something by it. And it's like why the hell would anyone ever want to sign their life away? You know, to these big businesses like it doesn't make sense. And I was even saying so Max's has been wanting to play guitar now for the last 18 months, and he he's insanely good. Yeah. I mean, I know everyone says that about their kids. Yeah. But as a musician, you sort of know whether they are or not. Exactly, yeah. And just seeing the passion that he has for it. And he's still, because he's still so new at it in his little mind. He, he's thinking, it's all about sort of like getting the record company and signing the contract. And that's what it is. And I can't remember what we were watching. But we had a conversation very quickly about the music industry and, and the business behind it. And, and he was talking about, like, bands selling out and singles and blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, this is what happens when you're signed to a record label, you actually don't get the voice, you don't get a voice, you don't get a choice as to what song you release, you are told and you are a product. And you are dispensable and disposable. And as you said, it is an asset. It's a business. That's why it is called business. Nothing to do with the music is just there a product it the music is the thing that you're selling, like if you sold shoes or something, you know, I hated shows like Australian Idol and that it's like you're literally trying to find someone who's going to make money for you. You know, and over the years, like my sister and I both sing and peoples are you guys should go on Australian, I was like, I was so firmly against it. Because I just was so cynical of that world with good reason that, you know, they're gonna take you they're gonna turn you into something else that they want, that's going to make more money that's more marketable, or, you know, and I just go night that that's not for me. I don't want. And I also I don't think, I don't know, I just want to be who I am. And that sounds like it's a cop out like, I don't know, no, no, no, no, not at all. I don't want to I don't want to go wear some clothes that I don't that don't suit me or change my hair. Like I just want to be who I am. That's it. And I think you're happier that way, too. Yeah, thank you for being like that, Oh, I hate those shows with an absolute passion. And yeah, and anyone who knows me know, who's how I don't like to rent I used to when I was younger, but I don't like to rent anymore. But if you really let me go, I'd be like, All right, let me tell you. But I guess to the general population who don't have the kind of access that we have, I mean, we're in a really privileged fortunate position where we have first hand experience. What it is, I mean to someone, there's so much to think about, like standing in a recording studio is just so beyond the realms of fantasy for most people. Whereas for people like you and I, it's nothing to die young going into the studio when she's dead. Yeah, like literally like, Yeah, ah, yeah, it's funny. And but that's the thing once you know, it freaks you out. Because you know that, you know, when I realized how songs got onto commercial radio, I was like, that they're paid. Like, it's to do with the deals that they make with the record companies to play this song, like, and I was like, There's no way I'm ever going to hear my music on that. And it's like, well, that's great. So I'll forget about that. And I'll just, you know, focus on the things that, that I can do. And it's like, yeah, when not everyone wouldn't know you that, you know, like, no, absolutely not, particularly, I think when you're younger, as well. And you do just have that. That idea of, that's what it is, and you're famous, like I remember teaching singing for a little while back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, and I remember a couple of students sort of Britney Spears was massive at the time and I show my age and and I remember a lot of them sort of saying I want to record contract and and saying, You know what? It's not about having the record contract, and then everything falling in your lap and just explaining to them as best I could before they just sort of saw it has been white noise, what it actually entails and it's someone literally giving you a loan that you miss how you have to pay back. Yes. And if you don't pay it back a bit through record sales and touring, then you aren't you're still owing money. No thanks. Yeah. So yeah, it's just it's, that's what people are exposed to when they're young. They're watching Australian Idol and things like that on TV indefinitely. millionaire thinking oh, this is what it is to this. This is the way to become famous. And this is the way to to be a millionaire. And yeah, it's easy. Easy. Yeah, exactly. And I think what sort of makes me really annoyed about those those sorts of programs too is when they they lock on to say an old person who says, This is my last chance. That's like, yeah, so for bloody television play. Yeah, that'd be the less than about those shows about that. Yeah. And, look, I could, no, I'll stop now. I won't stop again. I know, saying that's the thing. I know, actually. Just Just to quickly, yeah, one more point, I do remember going on to the application form of the voice just to see what it was about. Because I, I remember googling about what the actual contractual obligations are of the contestants. And, and I went on to the onto the application form, and there is actually a bit on the application form that asks, Who would you dedicate this performance? To? So they're fishing? Yeah, for the story? Yeah. Yeah, that story? Yeah. And I thought, there it is. That's what they want. They want that sob story. Yeah. So like bullshit Sarah? We're changing tack slightly, I want to talk to you about something I like to talk to people about the value of their art or their creativity. And you mentioned before that your music is a hobby. How do you because you don't necessarily earn, you know, a massive income from your music? Does that, in your mind diminish at all? The value of it? Overall? No, not at all. Yeah, I think because I'm still learning how to do it with the object in mind that this is how I do want to earn money. So I think I'm still sort of walking up that ladder, to get it to that point, and to know that it's okay to want to earn money from it. But that it is, it's, I think, also, too, when you have that in the back of your mind, sometimes that puts a bit of pressure on I know, it puts pressure on me. So I'm quite happy to know that my art still has value, because I'm still putting out putting it out into the world. And it's something that comes uniquely from me. And it's wonderful If people hear it and relate to it, even if it's just one person. So no, I don't think it does diminish it at all. And I part of the reason why I wanted to start creating and learning how to access that part of myself was to show my children that it doesn't matter how old you are, you are always learning and you can always learn a new skill. And we are never taught at school, the process of learning at all. We're just expected to sit down and absorb information where it's not linear. It's not like once you've cracked something, oh, I can do this now. And you keep doing it. No, it's always two steps forward one step back. There's always frustrations there's always that feeling of oh, I did this yesterday. Why can't I do it today? Yeah, that feeling so I think that in and of itself is art. Yeah, that learning process. So it's all valuable. Yeah. in any form. Any money from modern art? Yes, that's I knew you were gonna say that. I sort of I've got to work out a way of wording that question so it's not so walking you into it? Yeah, no, that's fine. Oh, yeah. No my arts crap because I don't make money from it. and also to I see, I've got a cousin, who is a singer as well. But she is a completely different style to me. And we really, sadly don't have a lot to do with each other, which is quite sad. But at the same time, she still is in the old music industry mindset of competition. And I think that's potentially why we don't ever really get on. Or she sees me as a threat. I don't know. But I kind of feel like she's feeling like that we're in competition. And I see how much stress and pressure she has placed on herself in the past with making albums. And I think the last album that she made one of the songs that she did actually got a nomination for Best song for the golden guitars up in Tamworth, I think back in 2013. But she had placed so much pressure on herself that if this album didn't do any good, she wasn't going to do it anymore. No. And I think that's really, really sad. Yeah. That she was just it for me. That's not art. No, that's that's running a business isn't like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think now she is actually a surgical nurse. And I think like any creative, you put it on the shelf, we put it to bed for a number of years and kind of go up and up. But I don't want to I'm not ready to do that yet. It kind of hurt me a little bit. But I think now she's at that point where she's, she's wanting to start to get back into it. I know, she is actually singing in cover bands up in Tamworth now. So she's getting back into that side of things. But I think she's actually really from what I hear. She's actually really keen to get back into writing again. But yeah, just I think it's really sad when we placed pressure on ourselves that yes, we have to make money and this has to do really, really well. And yeah, no, not that's not for me. I think that that whole thing, it just takes away that ability to like we were talking before about being in those states or being in those, you know, mindset to be creative. It just shuts all that down. Yeah, exactly. Just doesn't doesn't work. That's it. I mean, it's it's gonna be fun. Yeah, absolutely. God, I can't be stressful. No, I want it to be stressful. That's the thing like you've got enough stress in your life with you know, families and kids and jobs and whatever else in the thing that you do for fun. You want it to be fun. Yeah, exactly. Stop stop. Your stub stub stub that you mentioned you, your boys there how you sort of showing them, you know, different things. Do you feel like it's good for them to see you as not just mom and I always say that Jasmine, because you're not just mom. So we're never just man, but that you do things outside of your mothering role, I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. It took them a long time to understand. They would see me go to choir. Yeah. And every every Monday night and it would be sort of quickly shoveling going down my throat and off I went. And for a long time it would be like lag and leaving. Why are you going and they just didn't understand that and I distinctly remember one day doing something writing something and and Max coming out I don't even know how old he was he probably about seven or eight coming into me and just going mom, you shouldn't be making music. You should be making my lunch so no, I think it's very important for them to see that. I have other interests outside of being a mum and I know lots of mums will agree when when you say that it makes you a better mum. Because you're happy and it will there will come a time when they will understand me they understand now I fully but yeah, when they were when they were little they didn't obviously but I I know after releasing my single last year, that they are our are very proud of me, even though Max probably wouldn't admit it, but it was one of the twins, Zach was always he's always telling people at school that I seen and he's always showing what I do on a showing Spotify and showing all his friends and everything that I'm doing. And I helped out at a cross country thing for one of the twins classes a few weeks ago, and a little girl came up to me and she's just like, you're on the internet. So, yeah, I think they need to see that I am doing something that I really enjoy. And it makes it makes me happy. It's part of who I am. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is very important that I'm, I'm particularly too because I don't work. So it's, it's even more important for them that they see that I am, Mum, but I am also me, as well. And I have an identity, because you know what it's like when you when when you first got children, you're known as Max's mom. And it's like, I don't have a name. I was gonna say that earlier, actually, when you're talking about the twins, when you get to talk with in the street, like I recall, you know, people see you and they'd straightaway just latch on to the baby. And it's like, I'm actually here, you know, I'm the one that thinks like, I'm the one that's keeping them alive. But you know, to worry about me. And they'll be with the three of them get to like Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you are, you do just kind of become this soulless figure, don't you when you first become a mother. And that's really, I think it's really, really difficult to reconcile with. Because so suddenly, everyone else's life, I remember being pregnant with Max and sitting in the lounge room one night, just in tears, because I just thought, I'm the first one in my friendship group to have a baby. I hadn't met my mom's group at this point in time. And everyone else's life will go on as normal. Even to a certain extent, my husband, he still gets to go to work and come home. Whereas my whole life in the blink of an eye is going to change. And I think that that was a really, really difficult realization for me. And I remember actually feeling very angry and very upset about that. A little while, and just feeling this is not fair. Yeah. But you get over it, don't you? In your arms, you're like, Oh, fine now? Well, not really. I know you made it. So fat in the end, eventually, I think it through the help of, you know, continuing your creativity, just to remind yourself that you still have these skills and abilities and gifts. It's like they don't just disappear suddenly, when the baby pops out. Like no, no. Exactly, absolutely. I was even. I've been doing some some tuition with with a producer over in the UK, Aubrey Whitfield, and she is just about to have her first child in June. And she is an incredibly busy producer. And she cannot get over the attitude towards her with some people in terms of if she, for example, isn't able to get a song to an artist on time because she's been tired or she's had morning sickness. And it's amazing just how unforgiving. People are like it's yeah, we know we're not sick. But you do just have to cut pregnant women a little bit of slack. And even when I was really heavily pregnant with the twins, I got onto the tube and the train. And I had a little like baby on board badge and I was quite big at this point in time. And there was a man sitting in the special seat. And he was surrounded by bags and I looked at him and I say Excuse me, could I please sit down? And he looked at me and he was French, just from the accent. He was just like, but I have all these bags and I was like bye Baby bags get off. Oh my god. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like, like a hug to someone else the other day like, we're literally continuing the human race, you know, without us having children birthing children, the world would end. But no, you can't sit down because my bags are on the floor. You know? That's it. I know. And I know that there are some people, some women that potentially do come across as being entitled, because they are mothers, and they have birthed children, and they feel entitled for the world. For them to park the seas and the world to revolve around them. I do get that. But at the same time, yeah, it's just like, rolling a person in me. My choice, but I just don't get that like that she couldn't happen. Like you lose sight of the of those the amazingness of the whole thing? I don't know. It's really sad to think that we're just not supported. Yes. Yeah. We should be. Yeah. And I think it's again, it's a it's a Patrick patriarchy thing, I suppose where we're, this is what we are meant to do. So yeah, why do we feel like we should be needing like, preferential treatments? And I think that's where it stems from? Yeah, I think so it is a lot going on there. But I'll stop myself. Because if I start Oh. Bla. Jana, you just I want to ask you, if you've had sort of anything experience with mum guilt, over the years, when it comes to your music it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, maybe from time to time in the early days? I did. Because they were little. And they were needing me. And I didn't have the help around me. Where I didn't have like a mom close by or a sister close by who I could just be like, Look, can you take the kids for the day just so I can do this? And I'm fine. So I think in the early days, I did, particularly when I first started like doing choir, for example, and leaving them and thinking that yeah, I feel guilty for leaving them. But thankfully, with the help of my husband as well, I was able to let that go quite quickly and understand that I need to do this. And I'm not going to be a good mom, if I'm going to put that guilt on myself. Because they the kids get over it. Don't they like that? They might be like, Oh, Mom, where are you going? What are you doing? But then to seven years later, it's just like, Oh, look at that. It's like jewelry from off to the next thing distractions did exactly, exactly. i My eldest for quite a long time. Actually, it wasn't just the music thing, it would be like if I put into bed and then I'd quickly pop off up to the shops because it was easier to do it on my own obviously, because I didn't have to haul three kids out of the car. So it would just be ducking up to Kmart or something like that to do something and I would come home. And Max had been in bed for an hour or more and he'd be waiting for me to get home. And then the moment I'd walked through the door, he come out of his bedroom and give me a hug and say to me why Where did you go What I didn't, why are you leaving that kind of thing. And that happens a lot when he was little. And I couldn't work out why but my husband and I like why are you doing this? Like why Mom's coming home? And I spoke to my grandmother about it. And she said to me she she made a really good point. And she said to me, maybe because he's always told that if he goes out on his own, that he has to be careful and something might happen to him. Maybe he feels that something like that is going to happen to you and I thought oh my My goodness may potentially be what it is. Yeah, right element of worry of this is a date not a dangerous place because you don't want it to be just a dangerous place. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, I'm not allowed on Maya out on my own. So I don't want you Yeah. Which I've just thought that's a really valid point. And the moment I started to reframe it in that way, I became a lot more empathetic to him. Yeah, rather than getting frustrated with it. Yeah. Hmm. At the moment, my seven year old is going through this Age of Reason where he discovers that he's a, I don't know, a sentient being, and he's controlling his thoughts and also realizes that people die. And that when his parents who died, oh, wow, conversations of evenings, like, Oh, of course, at bedtime, you know, when when there's nothing else to do but think. So yeah, he's had a shocking few nights, I've actually had to be back in there with him, helping him to fall asleep, which I haven't, you know, years and years and years and years. Yeah. So to my husband, we have to be really kind to him and not tell him off. And even though we're frustrated that we've, you know, can't get some time to a sales, but you know, it'll pass but yeah, that's it, isn't it? And it's very easy to look at it from an adult perspective. And think, why you're doing this for like, yeah, you're being really illogical. And you're being silly. Like, it's, that's Yeah, but when you look at it from their point of view, and then I think that happens when you start to just be kind to them and understanding and Yeah, Mike appealing rational to us. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very real problem. Yeah, that's it. He said to me the other day, he just wanted to sit with me. So I just want to spend as much time as I can with you before you know. And then I thought back to my, my eldest who is 15. And when he he went through it a lot younger. He was like, everything he did was early, he talked early, like everything was early. And I remember thinking, God, you weren't like this. At seven. He was like, a lot earlier. And he said a thing to me, he said, are when you die, I don't want them to put you in the ground. I'll go in the ground with you. So I don't miss you. And I've always remembered that and I think oh my god. That's how that's how he's rationalizing. Losing, you know, people. Yeah, God, it's big. Isn't it? Like, being a little person and having that massive thing? So? Oh, yeah. That just reminded me when you're talking about your little man, yeah, it's a real version of an existential crisis read literally, isn't it? Yeah. All of a sudden, there's this whole extra thing happening. And you're aware of so many other things that you didn't really get like, you knew it was there. But you didn't understand the magnitude of it, I suppose. And how it would affect you and your your emotions related to it. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. Tell you what betimes makes you think it does bring you back as an adult to think about important things like that, I think to think, I don't know, you take that stuff for granted, I guess. And then, when someone little person says that you think Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Because I guess it feels like such a long way away for them to be dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's when you sort of start to think, oh, hang on a second. You see your grandparents passed away. If you're lucky enough that you're an adult, you still have your grandparents. I mean, I'm lucky enough. I've still got one grandmother, she's 91. And I just think to myself, once she goes, then it's my parents, and they're in their 70s Now, and they are facing their mortality as well. And my dad had a cancer scare last year, and that's really changed him profoundly, as well. So just kind of thinking wow, like the last 20 years have gone really quickly. And if I'm lucky enough, I've still will have hopefully my parents in another 20 years but at the same time, what is their health going to be like? And it's sobering, isn't it? Yeah, that it just it's Yeah. And to be like my grandmother and think to yourself, I wonder how much longer I have left? Yeah, I do. We have haven't we've gone down this path. But I do that and I think I have these like every few few years. I guess you have this time. More, you just literally take stock and you like what you've just said they're like, Okay, so I'm 40 nearly 40 5am I halfway through or am I, you know, three quarters of the way through? Like, will I get to see my children to have children? You know, will I be grandmother? And you just think, oh my god, this is like life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes you and I think when I turned 40, I thought to myself, I've tried not to sort of see the new decade as being this threatening thing. And I was fine leading up to my 40th birthday. But I remember when I did turn 40 All of a sudden, it just hit me. Oh, who am I? Who am I? I'm not this sort of bouncy little kind of like blond haired Jojo, that everyone has known me. I don't identify with her anymore, but I don't know who I am now. And it very, it was a real shock to the system to go. Whoa, I don't think I'm actually not having a midlife crisis. But I have actually hit the next chapter in my life. Like I am actually all grown up now. Yeah, yes. But yeah, with that sense of maturity, you you do stuff. Right. Well, I don't know how much longer I do actually have. Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously sort of start weightlifting. As I say when it's daring definitely. Right anything coming up that you'd like to share? I am. I haven't decided yet, which I'm going to actually release some singles or whether I'm actually going to release an EP. My goal for by the end of this year is to actually release some music, some more music, but I'll be doing it completely self released in terms of honing my own mixing and mastering skills, they're not getting any outside help. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And just to, to have that catalog of songs on Spotify, a friend of mine did some research really recently. And I don't know what she was looking at. But it was basically saying that when people look at your Spotify profile, they actually want to see that there's more than one song, they want to see a catalog of songs, which I don't have. So that's what I want to do, I want to just have that catalog. And just, they don't have to be perfect. And I'm not going to promote them as heavily as what I did with my last single know that I have done it. And I've gotten more music out there that I've shared properly. And I will actually release another single where I will really promoted heavily like I did with my single last year, but and I will actually get some outside help with that. Because that particular song, I feel like I won't do it justice and I just doing it myself. It's not quite how I want it. And my skill set at this point in time can't elevate it to the level that I want it to be at. So yeah, I will do that, hopefully by the end of the year as well. But it's, as we all know, it's just finding the time to fit that kind of stuff in and in between like running the kids to basketball and volunteering at school and doing all that kind of stuff as well as running patients in the house. So yeah, so that's the goal. Stay tuned. Yes, that's exciting. That's it and I can appreciate that it's quite daunting to take that next step. and do stuff by yourself, then to trust that you have the skills to be able to do and believe in yourself, too. I think that what do they call it that? I always forget what it's called. Now this gone, but when you don't think you're good enough, you think that are important syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Get over that and say actually, no, I do know what I'm doing. And I am going to do it. I think that's awesome. Going on. Yeah. Well, I, I would like to start producing other people's songs as well, eventually, I'd love that. That's kind of the dream for me is to not only write and produce my own stuff, but to also help other people as well other artists and collaborate with other artists in that way. I'm and I feel like I'm a long way away from that at this particular point in time, but I think I've thought for a while now, I've always thought to myself, it's an expensive hobby, releasing music. And so if I can learn to do a lot of it myself, yeah, rather than spending $1,000 on someone else doing it for me, I'd rather spend that $1,000 and learn how to do it myself, as they say, teacher, give him give a person a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach a person to fish in the lake for the life for the lifetime. So that's how I see it. Yeah. And learning continuing to learn like that. So yeah, I think that's a very recurrent thing that I've heard just, you know, it's a theme that's coming through a lot today. It's great to keep, keep learning and yeah, not settling, I suppose. Yes, the hard part is not being distracted and thinking, Well, I'd like to learn how to do that too. And I was learning the drums. And I still want to keep learning. But I actually started to think you know what, I'm getting off way more than I can chew. I do need to start honing in on some things. The producing side of things under the belt first, and then we'll go back to learning the drums because that was fun. That was so much fun. with like, the, all of that sound engineering side of stuff, like does your brain work in that, that way? It's starting to, yeah, it's really starting to. It's starting to really listen to things now and think about like the frequency spectrum then. And I haven't really quite nailed down compression yet. I'm getting there. But these courses that I've been doing with this producer over in the UK, she's completely self taught. But just the way, she teaches everything, it just makes it sound so easy. And it is easy, the way she just kind of breaks things down. And articulate articulates it it just takes away any of the complicated stuff that you may find on YouTube, like it's taken me, it took me a really, really, really long time just through like YouTube tutorials to get a grip with a get a grip on lots of different things that I wanted to try and try and do in my studio. And I learned more in three months with Aubrey than and got more confident with it in three months. And what I did in three years is insane. Yeah. So now, I know that I can lift up the laptop. And I can listen to something now and be like, right, I want to have a little bit of delay at this point. And I know how to do it. Yeah, rather than Yeah. So it's learning another language and I find it fascinating. So now, the way I listened to music is totally different. Yes. So what I used to I used to just listen to it from a singers aspect. Words and Music words and Melody top line. Now, it's like, right, so how did they achieve the excitement in this space with the music? So what sounds did they use and how many layers and all this sort of stuff that I that I was I was being taught in high school, that at the time I didn't care about like, why is the cello there so but now it's like, oh, right, I can I can see the I can hear the intention behind why they're playing particular things. Like I'm probably a little bit too analytical. But I don't see that for myself as being a downside. If I I guess if my husband's sort of going I don't like this and I'm like yes, but you have to see why they don't. When you have that knowledge, it's almost too much. Yeah. Oh, I can I can relate to that. was just listening to the singer. And I was totally the same when I made my first album. When I was working with the producer I was working with he was like now what? What sort of sound Can you visualize for this? And I'm like, I was coming at it from my point of view. He's like, Oh, no, but what about the instruments? I'm like, I don't know. Isn't that what you do? Like it was, like saloon and understand. And now the second album, I'm like, telling them what I want. Because I can, it is another language like I can actually feel like I can communicate in that way. Now, it totally different, totally different and it's great. I love I love that, that awareness. But with this sound, sound engineering stuff, literally, I just go. I know how to make the things work that I know that I want to do. And then I don't fiddle with anything else, because I've got to touch things. I don't move things that don't fit. Oh, yeah, that's good. Leave it like that. Yeah. I know, it's funny. When I when I was working with with my producer, for my single, there was a certain part in the song that he must have sent it back to me maybe six times, and it still wasn't achieving the sound that I wanted it to achieve. And, and I kept sort of saying to him, like this naturally sort of pushed up further and this. And I mean, I know as producers, you do get so used to working with vocalists and artists who don't know how to get the desired effect that they want. Yeah. And it got to a point where I just thought, oh, you know what, it's just going to be so much easier if I just go back into the studio, and we actually just sit down. Yeah, and go through it. And I had this epiphany of thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to do more, more more. Why don't I actually figure out what can be taken out. So make this part stand out. And it was just a totally different perspective that I had never even it never even entered my mind that that's sometimes what you have to do. And so, we got it done in half an hour, I went into the studio, and I was like, right, I thought about it. What are the instruments that are there? What can we take away? And we worked out what it was and bam, the sound appeared. Oh, there you go. I love that. That's so yeah, but as as Bruce said, in the tutorials, she's she's, I'm doing actually funnily enough a vocal production thing now and like so getting up at like one in the morning because it's a live zoom session at four o'clock in the afternoon UK time. She had we did she did a whole module last weekend on how to work with singers who really don't know what they're doing. They, like don't even know how to sing to a metronome. And I I know Right, exactly. You just sort of think I could you know yeah, that's it. That boggles my mind. But she said she was actually saying that it happens more frequently than what you expect. Wow. So learning how to literally be prepared for anything. Whoa. I never thought about that before. Yeah, so there's there's been quite a few times where my I've gone to bed and then my alarms gone off at like 10 to two in the morning and then I'm up until 330. The couple of weeks ago actually I had a gig about an hour and a half away and we didn't finish until 1230 and I got home at two o'clock and the session was starting at two o'clock. Oh, like jumping in the shower because I was really really sweaty. Jumped in the shower and quickly logged on and got to bed at yeah at 330 Oh yeah. Have to ask your your Instagram is like Dragon Fly industry dragonfly industry. Yeah. Where did that name come from? Right. So I wanted to actually separate my identity of myself and the project because I felt if I had a little bit of detachment from that it wasn't it wasn't including my My whole identity in the project. Yeah, and, and I was fascinated with people who had artist names that weren't a name. And the one that kept coming to me was Japanese wallpaper. And and that's just one guy. I can't remember his name now. I thought it'd be really cool to have an artist name like that. I can hear it on the radio now, like, debut single by dragon flying industry. And I thought it had to be sort of something that potentially could be visual. And I wanted something that included like the idea of me taking off like growing wings and flying. Yeah. And I thought birds and butterflies, cliched overused. I wonder what else there is. And I meditated. When I just didn't remember this. I meditated one Saturday afternoon, it wasn't like I was meditating on it at all. But I was meditating. And I started having a discount, like just a conversation with my late grandfather, mid meditation, and was washing up maybe half an hour later. And then all of a sudden thought, Oh, my goodness dragonfly. I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning. And so I looked it up. That means things like maturity and adaptation, and let me have a look. It just it really, really just resonated to a point where I was just like, shot. Real? And yes, so then I thought, right. Dragonfly. Hmm. I'm building as well. And, and then I thought industry. I wonder what the Oxford Dictionary like I wonder what the actual definition of industry is. And it was something like manufacturing and building from raw supplies. And that just, Oh, that is perfect. And I had felt in the conventional way. And then I had someone say to me when they saw dragonfly industrial in a lineup for an open mic night, that he was really intrigued to find out what it was because when he looked at the words, it actually looked like it was something from the corporate world. No, I don't want that. I don't want no. Yes. So I thought I would change the spellings a little bit. But little did I realize that I was potentially shooting myself in the foot because I'm continually telling people out spell it will be okay. And every live it's all a dream. It's like exploring canvas on one screen. A Chat is the truth of broken lines. The bedtime story is that a threat has only drama. Thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, thanks for sharing all your bits and bobs and, and indulging me where I've wandered off on the tangent. Oh, don't worry, I've done the same thing. That's been great. And yeah, I'll put all the gather up all your links and put them in the show notes. So people want to follow along with you. Safari. Here. Barry. Yeah, and all the best. I hope you Yeah, have a have a good time making new singles and or deciding it's an EP, whatever you just keep an eye out for. Yeah, thanks again. So much. It was great. It was so good fun. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Julie Denton Australian yoga teacher S1 Ep03 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julie Denton is a creator of a different kind, having worked in the fitness industry since her teens and more recently as a yoga teacher. A mother of 3 adult children from Mount Gambier SA, Julie talks about how society's view of the mother changes as we age, the unique perspective she has now her children have moved out of home, and we finish the podcast with a beautiful Metta Karuna mediation. **This episode contains discussion around an eating disorder** Julie instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used by permission in this episode from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. My guest today is not your run of the mill artist creative, or the first thing that may spring to mind when you think of a creator. Typically, your mind goes to painters, writers, dancers and more like that Today's guest has a long history of creating in another way. And I invited her on to share one of the many ways that mothers are being creative today. My guest, Julie Denton from Matt Gambia, South Australia has many years experience in the fitness industry, as a business owner and more recently as a yoga teacher. Work. Julie, it's great to have you here. Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here. Yeah. And my first face to face interview too, which is very exciting. Obviously, I know you quite well, and I've known you for a while. But would you like to share a bit about yourself how it maybe what you've been up to, over the years involved in fitness, maybe how you got into it, what you've been up to, with the yoga, that kind of thing? Sure. When I was 18 and working in my first job. One of my co workers dragged me along to what was an aerobics class back then, at the local was just the squash center. And I was hooked. I loved it. And until that point in my life had been quite lazy. I was the girl that wags sports day at school. But I just loved it. I loved the music and the movement and the way it was all put together and I guess I love the creativity of it. So when I've literally been going for maybe a month or two this aerobics class went out bought all the gear, how will you no idea? Like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So the days where your oily attire over your leggings and it had a G string and the leg warmers and I had the hair that went with everything was float? Look, my kids look at the photos and go Oh, Mom, have you still got some of that stuff? Because that's heavy. I have it doesn't smell very good. Like anybody um, the the woman who was taking the classes a month in the woman that was taking the classes was leaving town. And she literally said to me, Julia, would you like to take over and I said, you know, you didn't need qualifications in these days. And I said, Oh, yeah, that'd be great. And gee whiz, I, I was really thrown into it. And I remember making my first little mixtape of all I could say, took my little boombox and press play, and away we went. And it was dreadful. It was horrible to everybody loved it. And I loved it. And you know, there was nothing to compare it to. In, you know, small country town at the squash center, it was, you know, we were having a hoot. So, from there, you know, I definitely went on to become qualified and more experienced. And eventually, it led me into personal training. I opened my own personal training studio as a business. And then around about three years ago, now I left the fitness industry and opened my own yoga studio. I've been teaching yoga for about 11 or 12 years, but thought it was time to morph into something new and yoga was definitely my passion. So had you always had that sort of feeling of it? And I'm jumping right ahead here to something I'll probably ask you later. But the the spirituality that comes with yoga, was that always something you had already? That come later? Or how did you come to that? Yeah. It's funny that you asked that because I was raised as a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School. So I guess that religious spirituality was there. And when by the time I had, you know, I was well into my 40s and I did my yoga teacher training, and had sort of left religion You like by then I sort of, I guess become became a bit disillusioned with it all and was perhaps looking for that spirituality again. And that's what led me to yoga. And I know, yoga facilitated a lot of change in my personal life at that stage that I really needed. I guess it was my next level of growth. And in the yoga teacher training, even though yoga is definitely not a religion, there was so the spiritual concepts took me right back to being at a Catholic Primary School, you know, that, you know, just the underlying current, I guess of love and compassion and kindness. So yeah, it was it was, I guess, my next step in my spiritual growth, and I think we're all we are I know, we're all spiritual beings. It's just some of us perhaps, don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge perhaps in a bit of denial, doesn't you know, embarrassed because it's a misunderstood concept. It's, you know, it is connected to some people connected to religion, but you can definitely be spiritual or religious. Absolutely. So, tell me about your children, Julie and your family? Yeah, um, I have a husband, Andrew have three adult children, Brittany, Tara and Liam 2927, and 22. So, I guess, from the perspective of motherhood, I'm in the, I'm in the advanced stages, I guess I've got I've got the wonderful gift of hindsight. So when I sort of had a look at the content we'd be discussing today, I've felt really blessed in that, you know, I can see it from all angles, having, you know, the pre pre kids life and then the during kids, and now almost the post kids in some ways. You've lived it all I have. Yes. So. So how do kids fit in with that? Obviously, the fitness industry and you're quite mobile, and you're moving a lot. How did that all fit in pregnancy? Well, oh, gee whiz. Well, with Brittany, my oldest I was when I was sick with all three of them for over half of the pregnancy, particularly with my first with Bret. So that was a huge steep curve, I had to sort of set aside the more high energy classes and I ended up moving into aqua aerobics teaching in the pool. Loved it. And I think what happened is I evolved into a definitely evolved into a better fitness instructor through it, because I perhaps appeal to a different demographic as well. Also have more empathy and more compassion for what other people are going through rather than just oh, look at me, I'm fit, you know, and I've got a G string. Suddenly, I was dealing with real people and real issues and mothers that can't do star dance because things happen when your mother. Absolutely. So it was, yeah, it was what needed to happen. Bring me into the real world. It was tough. You don't always get sleep when you've got a baby and Brittany just didn't sleep for the first five years of her life. So I was off and running on empty. It was it was a tough job. Even though it was so rewarding and really a super job for a new mom, because there's often a crash or a childcare involved at the gym. So I was lucky I had that support. Also could work my own hours. So we're working around when Andrew was home, unable to be home with the kids. So you touched on the tiring, so obviously your body was tired, but mentally How did you go then creating the classes? How did how did you approach that? I suppose if you were feeling a bit, not yourself, and perhaps didn't have as much time? Yeah, pre. I'll talk about pre my pre Les Mills days because before I became a Les Mills instructor, all of my classes were created by me. So the music and the choreography. Everything Yeah, usually knew who my audience and my class were going to be so I could tailor it to them. So it's probably the beginning of my personal training career in some ways. And I probably sort of prided myself on every class was layered with things we'd already visited or practiced, but then there was a new element And you'll never be. Yeah, exactly. So there was this continuation, there was a sense of familiarity from previous classes, but also a sense of adventure, and we're going somewhere and we're improving. Well, that went out the window when you baby because it's like, you have to use that tape again. And that that choreography because I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't, you know, find the time to think about it, let alone practice it, and you didn't have the time or the energy. So bit of treading water there for a year or so. But most people, you know, understood that and they were in the trenches with me, because a lot of them were new mums as well. And through that came great friendships a lot of support. Yeah, exactly. Which is so important. Even just someone to understand who can empathize is just, you know, can make the world of difference. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So before you set out on your having children adventure, did you sort of think about how your fitness life would change? Or did you sort of think, like, did you have people around you maybe that role model power to make it work in the fitness industry? Or just No, no, not at all. I was the first in my friendship group to have children. So honestly, our when I had bread, I'd never changed, or maybe even seen a nappy bean change and change one. And I rang the buzzer, and asked the nurses stitch, show me how to change the first nappy. And I had no qualms with that, because I really did not know what I was doing. Gee whiz, that that floors me right now. Go jokes about jumping into the deep end. So no, I didn't consider it, I probably the changes to my physical body would have been probably my number one concern. And, you know, I feel probably a lot of us did the same thing here in that it's focused on the pregnancy. And you don't focus so much on the actual motherhood side of things. And that goes for a lot longer than the pregnancy, actually, when you look back at it. Same with weddings and marriages, you know, the wedding, and then y'all hang on a minute, I'm gonna be married to this guy for hours. And so. So, yeah, I didn't I think the physical changes to my body were what sort of engulf me at that time. And having come from a background of having an eating disorder when I was in my late teens, and interestingly, getting into fitness is what brought me out of that hole. Because I started to respect my body more. So it was, yeah, I sort of been through that journey. And then suddenly, it was all going to change again. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was confronting for me. And that was probably my focus. And then once I learned how to change a nappy and feed the baby, like, sort of with all three kids, I went back to my work at the gym. Fairly quickly, I had other jobs on the side that I'd hadn't any lead from, but I all I've always worked in the fitness industry is at any given time, other than perhaps three or four weeks after giving birth. I retired when I had lamb my third and then they dragged me back. Keep your way, you know? So your children are late. You've just brought up laying? Yes. just reminded me. So your children spending a lot of time around the gym. It's rubbed off on all of you. Well, yeah, all of them. Yeah, it really has. It's funny because I tell the story Liam's first full sentence was we will we will rock you because because at this stage, I was teaching those meals classes and one of them was body pump. And of course learning choreography is a big part of it. music So wherever we went in a car Sorry kid. You know, the music was playing and bless him. I think he was you know, probably was old enough to string a sentence. Obviously, not very old. He was in his car seeing the back of the car when I pulled up and I heard this you know, right at the right time with the chorus, but I tend to motor off so that the music went off and there was still this little from the back behind me. We will we will walk you it really was at the same time as i Oh, my goodness, what have I done? So yeah, and I also my girls would play aerobics instructors, step instructors, and they would, they'd go around so we go to our friend's house and with my friend Louise also in the industry. My daughter's and her daughter would be moving on girls running their own little circuit class, really so my creativity rubbed off on name as well. And since then, my oldest daughter works in, in media bit for the Melbourne Storm Rugby League clubs. So, in sport, you know, she's she's, she's connected to sport and goes to the gym, loves, loves her fitness. My middle daughter Tara is a school teacher and also a yoga teacher. She went away to Bali a few years ago and became qualified as a yoga teacher. And then Liam is currently works in a gym in Adelaide, and he's a bodybuilder so yeah, he's he's gotten pretty good too. Oh, he's gone great guns. Yeah. Yeah, he's I don't know how he does it. Yeah, it's you obviously feel very proud of him. Yeah, super proud of all my kids. And I feel that, you know, dragging them along to the gym, and I never once pushed it on them. I certainly let them eat, like normal children. I wasn't, you know, pushy with their food or, you know, their, their exercise in any way. I just modeled what I would hope for them to absorb. And they have Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. So let's chat about the fantastic word that we get thrown at us all the time that this mum guilt. Well, how do you feel about that? Julie? Well, I guess I touched on it a little bit a moment ago. My kids did get brought up in the gym. But I was incredibly lucky that I could take them to work with me. And that they could see me I guess achieving something. And being a mum, is my greatest ever achievement, let's let's not get that wrong. I feel that mum guilt is perhaps a label or a clump that we're all invited into. Once we become a mum, and it's expected of us and it's I don't think it's it's something that's unique to any of us where we all feel it. So therefore, is it a thing? You know, it's, you know, tree falls in the forest? Does anyone hear it? Is it a thing? Is it something? Is it just a label, it's I don't think it's an emotion, I don't think it's a feeling I just think it's a thing. And studies have shown that guilt doesn't necessarily reform your future behavior. And I thought about that, and I because I knew that this was one of you your topics. And I thought if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I've stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lighting me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children, I changed, I let go of it, I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So and I mean every you know to say that you've got mum guilt, everybody experiences guilt differently as well. And for me, the feeling of guilt is kind of like looking forward to some sort of future resentment. I know I'm gonna feel bad one day that I missed out on that first smile or the first step or whatever. I that might not happen. And be I'm going to I'm going to go with my yoga and meditation roots here. We can only live in the here in the now. So when I was with the kids, I tried as much as possible as possible to be with my kids. And when I wasn't with them, I tried to do the best job that I was doing with the support that I had. And I think I did and I guess as I said earlier I've got the the luxury now of sitting here with three grown adult children looking back going it all turned out okay. Yeah, maybe if you interview them it might be I don't think so. No, no, I think what we what we do worry and have these feelings and challenges in the here and now. We just got to stay in the here and now. Do the best we can. Do you think a lot of that comes from society's expectations or how you perceive yourself being judged by others. Definitely. I think it's expected that we will feel guilty will have mommy guilt RDMS them and oh you know how do you go Being away from them all day. And, you know, what's it like when you get home today, you know, and it's there is this expectation that that's how you're going to feel. So we feel it and it's like, you know, I think you maybe feel it, but Don't wallow in it. Just go, okay, everyone's feeling the same way I am. So just do the best I can and really be with your family when you're with them. And when you're not with them know that that's part of their journey to where if we've created this beautiful, amazing human, and we are meeting their, their needs as far as food, shelter, love. That's actually all they really need. As long as you're meeting those, the guilts really a wasted feeling. I've said that so well. Did you? Did you find that your that you needed to have something for yourself? Was it important for you to maintain that? Yes. Your sense of identity as Julie? Yes. Not just Julie mum? Yes, not Julie mom, not Julie wife, not Julie daughter, you know, it's interesting with the mom guilt thing, you move on into my stage of life. And now I have parent guilt. And for all the bad things I've ever said to my mum and dad, the way I judge them when they were bringing me up for not spending enough time with them now that, you know, my mum passed on in March and you know, the time that I didn't spend with her or couldn't spend with her or, you know? Yeah, I think I think we beat ourselves up too much. We can only be in the moment that we're in. That's wise words. So, you've mentioned you yoga, just February flee, I want to sort of bring that in. Even though you weren't necessarily practicing a lot of ego, you're when you had your children. You were doing your fitness and you came into yoga, or 1211 12. Zero, yeah. Did you find then being a mother, and this whole connection to Mother Earth and other concepts in exploring yoga, that you found a really deep connection that you could understand, or feel those concepts strongly because you're a mother, everything has evolved since becoming a mother. And speaking of Mommy get to do my yoga teacher training, I had to go, I had to go and live in Boston for a month. And I had incredible support to be able to do that. But I nearly came home after the first week, I was in tears every night, it was so hard. And it wasn't even really mommy guilt. It was I just missed them. But again, the thing that kept me there was that, you know, they I think Liam was only about 10. And the girls are a little older, sort of in high school. And I could see that me being away was enriching their relationship with their dad. And seeing him as part of their, their care is not that wasn't always just gonna be me and didn't always have to be me and their grandparents as well. So when I came back from that, I think all of our relationships changed a bit. We all appreciated each other a whole lot more. When I became a mum, say in the fitness industry, I definitely had a greater awareness and appreciation for the female body and started to research more about that aspect, you know, the hormonal hormonal fluctuations as an example, on a woman that might be training, you know, in the gym, or, you know, running or, you know, participating in sport. So that came into my personal training that came into my, my field of vision. Suddenly, yeah, and then of course, as you head towards menopause, that's now also coming in. And then of course, with yoga. Yeah, when you become a yoga teacher, you realize, you really realize this connection to all beings. You you also realize a connection to think something that's greater than yourself. And realize you have this responsibility of passing down your wisdom. And I'm going to talk a bit about perhaps, hear the, the maid and the mother and the crone and the cranes a horrible word. I'm gonna get creative and come up with a high priestess. Oh, yeah. Because I'm a crane. And I want to be called a chrome. Thanks very much. Yeah. So the maiden is, you know, the years when as a female, you're a child or adolescent. You're going through puberty. You're laying the foundation for your the future. You're You're growing and developing physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And then you move into that creative time when you're the mother, where you you're nurturing, and you're, you're providing the shelter, the food, the life sustaining elements to either your children or your family or your pets, whatever it might be, that's your stage in life. And then you move through that into menopause and beyond. And unfortunately, as in Western society, unlike perhaps a the ancient societies in India, where yoga originated, where the the elders are revered, for their wisdom and their guidance, where in our society, we're kind of cast aside we're not cool. We're not Instagram worthy, where, you know, yeah, that was, you know, back in your day, that doesn't count anymore. And yeah, it doesn't. You know what, I'm so glad that I had my kids when I did, because I think we got it easier. But I'm in that stage now where my job I see it is to provide some wisdom and guidance and a shining mite. So that, I guess that's why I came into yoga, because I felt that there was no more moving on girl for the locker room, there was so much more in me than that. And what was the next thing so? Yoga was that that awakening within me? I really miss it. I'm like, in a hiatus at the moment, I'm calling it my chrysalis. I might have been alone, perhaps I was having that come out as a moth. But Kevin? Yeah, my studio, I had to unfortunately, close because of COVID. And then I've developed type one diabetes. So I, you know, divine timing, because I would have I was really, really ill. And it would have been a real struggle to run a yoga studio. So I figured, okay, I've been almost shoved into this cocoon. And um, I was I was fighting that for a while. But then we know what happens inside cocoons. Amazing things. So I'm just going to settle in here for a while. A little bit longer yet. Yep. Build up my strength a little more. And don't worry. There's there's things happening. If there's ideas, and I'm being so creative, right now, probably more creative than I've ever been. It's just that it's all in my mind. The mind is ready. And the body's saying I haven't your wings aren't quite ready yet. That's right. Yeah. So let's talk about then the creativity involved in when you you organizing your yoga classes and the thought and so I've always admired and to tell people that Julie has this beautiful, big, it's a double like a full big book. And she sets it out in front of every class. And when I realized what it was, I used to get a bit sneaky and have a look, because I'll always like to bring up the front. Oh, excellent at doing that posting. And it's all color coded, which is like, it's beautiful. And so much thought and effort and passion goes into that. So if you wouldn't mind divulging some of your secrets of how you come up with your classroom. In some ways, that's my favorite part. And that's the creativity. You know, I can't sit here and say that someone's got that hanging on a wall somewhere or that someone came to, you know, see my show, but I guess they did in some ways. And I've often joked that I'm, I'm my, if I could give myself a title, it's facilitator of change. That's what I've always helped creating bedding to create create some change in people whether it was through sit ups and burpees or, or yoga practice or meditation. And my favorite part always has been when I think about it, and thank you for making me think about it. Allison, has been creating what I'm about to present. And I guess when I think deeper about it, everything I've done, whether it's that aerobics class in the leotard or now my yoga, it's almost a performance. I that I've planned and choreographed and researched and scripted. You know, back in my aerobics days or the Les Mills days, you spending an hour on stage, smiling, pretending something doesn't hurt when it's killing you inside. is doing a good job of stringing people along for the ride if you and no matter what happened that morning if the kids will run like we need them breakfast or you throw him in the car or car break down whatever it literally is, it's a performance you need on your happy face. And pretty much everyone in the class was creating that same sense as well in that you know, their kids might have been the ones that wouldn't eat their breakfast but that's okay because right now they're in the kids club and I'm having an hour to my set Yeah, so and then yeah with my yoga book, if you want to call it that the volume of my my lesson plans are go with a theme and I attach my theme to whatever's happening in nature. I'm very much connected to the natural world love love the ocean love the moon love the sun, love the seasons love a forest love a mountain. So I'll work out what's going on maybe astronomically or with the moon cycle or with the season you know, maybe an equinox or a solstice or whatever is going on. Or maybe it's a current world event. I remember I had to teach a body balanced class on the day that we all woke up to 911 has possibly been taken but people still turned up for it because they needed something. And that's what tells me that spirituality is so such an integral part of us so yeah, that's that's where I start and then sometimes the colors are a code sometimes they're just pretty colors to be honest. And just changing textures over but sometimes they are a COVID or I might be working with shockers or with a season or or just my favorite colors so yeah, from that that foundation of where I'm coming from then research okay what you know, I know the basic structure of a yoga class I mean learn the very basics and fundamentals through my yoga teacher training. So research okay, what physically do we need in our bodies to perhaps deal with this time or settle any negative things that might arise from say a full moon or or enhance things you know, that we might want to bring to the surface and deal with or shine light on? And then from there, you know, working out okay, how does one pose fit with another? Am I is there is it a balanced class physically? What am I then, you know, what am I going to say? How am I going to present this? beginnings, middles endings, you know, is there a meditation that could go with this? Is there breathwork? What breathwork can go with is each all of my classes will have those elements. It's not just oh, moving on, girl. Yeah, it's definitely this, you know, it's the whole shebang. Yoga should always be breathing, movement, mindfulness. When I owned my own studio, I had the luxury of being able to look at who was booked into that class, and then maybe working out any modifications I might need to offer for people or perhaps just, again, tailoring it along to whoever I I knew was going to be in the class. Did you find that your how you were feeling came out in like, if you feel like you need? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, so many times, and I've said it to yoga teachers, when I've been to their class, people will say, Oh, how did you know that was exactly what I needed. And I you've seen I've said it's because, you know, we're all connected together. Yeah, you know, often, I would have, I've probably admitted in class many times, this ain't for me, this is for you. This is for me. I know you don't want to expose but I do. Or I need this. And so you know, it's tongue in cheek, but yeah, we, we, you know, if I'm feeling the effect of, let's say, the autumn equinox, where we're about to shift into winter, where, you know, letting go of those warm balmy days and you know, the joy of summer and from smart meters like and we're, you know, physically we're shifting, it's getting colder. We're feeling we're starting to eat stodgy foods and it's just like, oh, here we go again. And, you know, we're all feeling the same. So no matter what I present, whether I think it's, you know, for me or them, it's for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just want to touch on your, your name of your yoga studio, one lifestyle, one yoga and lifestyle. That is important to you to embody that. It's not just the poses, the shapes you make, it's an You take it away from the mat and put it into your life integrated into your life. That's something you're passionate about, ah, so much. So, I mean, I think because I came, because of that journey I've just spoken about I came from, well look at me, I'm fed to, Hey, sit down, be humble, you know, there's more to it than running around like a crazy person, you realize, you do realize that when you've once you've had children, that's for sure. There's more people in the world than just you. And everything you do, has an effect on other beings. And if we want to focus on the lifestyle, part of it, so one yoga and lifestyle, I wanted to include the word lifestyle, because Yoga is a lifestyle, it's, you know, it's not that people think, Oh, it's a religion, it's a cult, it's just, it's a form of exercise. It's none of those things. It's a lifestyle. It was, you know, founded 1000s of years ago. And it's still around. So it's not a fad. It's not, it's still very relevant, more and more so. And what we do on the mat, the lessons we learn about our physical body to start with, and then as we evolve about mental, spiritual, emotional bodies, we can take into our everyday life. And it's really as as as a yoga practitioner. It's important that we do that, because then we make the world a better place. And that just sounds so Walt Disney, but honestly, that's what it's all about. It's about being the best person we can. So that everybody around us, and if you get if you get that many people trying to be the best, and do the best nicest things, you know, the the I don't know what the remarks are. Yeah, the ripple effect. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important to me that people come to yoga. It's there. There's, that's a whole sentence, it's important that people come to yoga force. Yeah. And when they do consistently, they will realize exactly what I've just said that they might come for the stretch, they might come because they're tired. They might come because they can't sleep. They might come because they've got a pain in the back. And if they keep coming, they'll eventually look back and go, Well, I'm coming for a whole different reason. Now. I'm coming for that story about Goddess Kali. I'm, I'm coming because I need to slow down and breathe deeper. I'm coming because my mind is so full. I need to just be still and silent. And like you said the people that came to that body balance class on that night of 911 Like just needing comfort, I suppose. And community connection in a really positive way. Yeah. And they probably need to needed to do it. In a space that felt safe. A yoga class always feels safe. Yeah, and they needed Yeah, they they needed perhaps. That mothering. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd love to share to leave, it's important to you that we might not have mentioned? Yeah, I think apart from like my work, if you want to call it that, I've never felt like I've worked. I've been so blessed with it all over the years and had great support, so that I could always do what I've always done. And looking back, I'd like to think I'm a good example of a mum that knew what was best for her knew what was best for your kids and let go of any guilt or expectation and just did it when it felt right. And that it can all turn out well in the end. Moving away from that, though, the way other ways that we can be creative because, you know, there's there's a lot of pressure on us now. And you know, because of social media as well, we're always expected to achieve you know, and to show what we've been doing with our time heaven forbid that we might just sit around and not do anything. Yeah. And you know, the only thing we did today might have been mopped the floor that's not good enough, you know, well, if you didn't post it on Instagram, it didn't really happen. Exactly. So you know, I sort of again if this coming on this podcast has been great for me because you made me reflect back on how did it change when I do you become a mother and I was at home or and I just got into baking and cooking and the kids would do that with me and and craft was big on craft as in craft groups. And I was like, you know, I was managing a big craft group at one stage. I didn't get any craft done. As usual was like I was never as fit as I could be because I was I was at the front like yelling and everybody. Well, there was not getting any craft done because I was organizing for everybody. But it was it was great. I It's creating a crop group. And yeah, so you know, yeah, I've got quilts. And honestly, if there hadn't been Instagram back, then every day, my house would have had different decor because I had, I just was rotating the rooms all the time. I just loved being home and doing that. So, you know, that's if that's how you're being creative. That's how you're being creative. And you know, I think we're all creative. Oh, I totally agree. You know, we we've all got art and music and performance inside of us. And you've really got to acknowledge that no matter how grand it is, or how, you know, mop the floor and sing the song. With you and you created something. Exactly. Yeah. I didn't want to ask too. How is it different now? Your creativity, and obviously the, the ways you can do it and how you do it. You don't have any kids living at home now. So that must be a different sort of vibe and feel at home. Yeah, I mean, also, because I'm not regularly teaching at the moment. I'm sort of doing a few pop up classes here and there. So yeah, everything really has changed. But yeah, now if I've got a class to plan, I, I'm sorry, not organized. I procrastinate to the last minute because you don't have to be and quite often, what will happen is like Tara being a schoolteacher, she'll come home for the holidays. This isn't like, Oh, hey, my glasses have been caught out with my pants down. So you tend to get a little bit laps at AZ cool, I think. I think you're at your peak of organizational powers when you have kids at home. And yeah, also, you know, like little things like if I'm trying to make a new playlist or something I have, I've had to learn how to do it. Just get the kids to help me ring him up. Brother Yeah, so it's definitely changed. Yeah, yep. We're very, very lucky today on the podcast. Julie's gonna lead us to a meditation. And it's one of my favorites, actually is my complete favorite. So over to you, Julie. Thanks. So today's meditation is metta Karuna. And this literally means a loving kindness meditation. So I will begin by finding a comfortable position and this is whatever is comfortable for you. So you can be seated you can lie down. I recommend that you make yourself warm. So find perhaps something to place over your lap. Make sure you've got socks on or some long sleeves and as you find yourself comfortable, close down your eyes. Remembering that in meditation, all we really need to do is just to be present to just stay alert and aware. Just listening to my voice being in the here and now the meta Karuna meditation I'm doing today begins with shine, showing love kindness and compassion to the self. So as is the Buddhist tradition, we will send our love or kindness and compassion to ourselves first. So I'm going to recite a small mantra and what you need to do is listen and then repeat the words silently to yourself lying as you are, visualize yourself, smiling, happy, peaceful and free. And as you visualize yourself smiling, say to yourself, may I be happy? May I be peaceful? May I be free of all suffering? Next, we will visualize before us somebody that we love unconditionally, who loves us in return This can be the first person you think of because I'm sure there are many people and very people, perhaps pets that you love so just the first person or pet that comes to mind visualize them before you smiling back and send your loving thoughts to this person may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering now we'll bring to mind somebody neutral somebody that you know and acquaintance, somebody that you don't have any strong feelings towards. So this might be somebody that serves you in a shop might be somebody that you see on television, it might be a sporting hero, somebody that you don't really know but you you see them often and you have neutral feelings for them. Visualize this person smiling, happy then send this person your love and your kindness and your compassion May you be happy May you be peaceful may be free of all suffering and now, for a challenge we visualize somebody who challenges us it might be somebody who you've had a disagreement with it might be somebody that just rubs you up the wrong way pushes your buttons if this is too painful for you, that's okay perhaps just return to visualizing yourself and sending yourself the love and the kindness and the compassion. But if you can visualizing this person who challenges you and see them happy and relaxed and smiling and smile at them in return and send them your metric arena May you be happy really peaceful. May you be free of all suffering and finally as vast as it is, visualize the whole world all beings the entire universe before you all beings deserve to be happy and peaceful and free So visualizing all beings we send out our meta Karina May all beings be happy May all beings be peaceful May all beings be free. Son, the Shang, Asian baby keeping your eyes closed, just becoming aware of your surroundings again. If you're lying on the floor, just roll over to your right side body and curl up there for a moment. And then taking your time whenever you're ready. Use your hands to brace yourself back up and take a seat so that we're all seated. Just pause for a moment eyes remaining closed and just noticing the effects of our meditation may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering thank you so much for coming. Enjoy. It's been an absolute pleasure and sharing your thoughts and experience because we That's thanks, Alison. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic man

Ellie D Australian music publicist S2 Ep43 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Ellie D, is a music publicist currently in Bundaberg, QLD, originally from Adelaide SA and a mum of 3 children under 2. She is hugely passionate about the Australian music scene. Through her podcast, her internet radio station and her YouTube series, Ellie's pure focus is highlighting undiscovered Australian music artists. Ellie spent many years in human resources and promotion, but her passion was in the music industry. In high school Ellie's year 12 project was on Community Radio, in University she was hosting 5RTI's Italian programme. It was when Ellis was hosting Southern FM's Monday Breakfast that she realised there were so many Australian artists who were going under the radar, so used her show to promote and highlight them . Ellie brought her skills from her previous jobs to begin working as a manager and promotor for Aussie artists, which saw her attend the ARIA awards. Early 2018 when she left Melbourne she was touted as the next Molly Meldrum. When her family moved to Bundaberg, as a 36 year old she was basically retired, as the music industry was so different. During 2020 when her son was 4 months old she was reinvigorated to do something for herself, and started her YouTube and podcast series and on 1st March 2021 Ellie began her radio station. Often a thankless job, that does not stop her. Her passion for the Australian music industry is that strong. Ellie also discusses her 15 year infertility battle, IVF journey, complications with her twin pregnancy requiring surgery and going onto 81 days bed rest after her waters broke at 20.5 weeks and having her twins in the NICU for 5.5. weeks. This episode contains discussion around foetal medical procedures, premature birth and complications, twin to twin transfusion syndrome Watch Ellie's family's appearance on ABC's Catalyst here Connect with Ellie instagram / website / OzNow Radio / YouTube / Podcast Connect with the Podcast instagram / website Music used in this episode from your host Alison Newman and producer LT Balkin used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest this week is led Ellie is a music publicist currently living in Bundaberg Queensland, originally from Adelaide in South Australia. And Ellie is a mom of three children under two, including twin girls. Ellie is hugely passionate about the Australian music scene. Through her podcast, her internet radio station and her YouTube series. Ellie's pure focus is highlighting undiscovered Australian music artists. Ellie spent many years in human resources and promotion, but her passion was in the music industry. In high school, LSU 12 project was on community radio. In university she was hosting five RTI as Italian program. It was when Ellie was hosting southern FM's Monday breakfast that she really realized there were so many Australian artists who were going under the radar. So she used her show to promote and highlight them. Ellie bought her skills from her previous jobs to begin working as a manager and promoter for Ozzy artists, which saw her attend the ARIA awards in early 2018. When she left Melbourne she was touted as the next Molly Meldrum. When her family moved to Bundaberg as a 36 year old she was basically retired as a music industry was so different. During 2020 When her son was four months old, she was reinvigorated to do something for herself and started her YouTube podcast series and on the first of March 2021, Ellie began her radio station, often a thankless job that does not stop her. Her passion for the Australian music industry. Is that strong. Today Ellie also discusses her 15 year infertility journey. IVF experience complications with her twin pregnancy, requiring surgery and going on to 81 day is bedrest after her waters broke at 20 weeks, and having her twins in the NICU for five and a half weeks. This episode contains discussion around fetal medical procedures, premature birth and complications and twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Music On today's episode is courtesy of myself, Alison Newman. See your face. I see everywhere. Thanks so much for coming on today, Ellie. It's such a pleasure to meet you and welcome you to the podcast. Alison, thank you for having me. I've been so excited to have this chat with you. And I'm an avid listener to your podcast. So it's really cool to be someone that's a guest now. I love that. Thanks for that. I appreciate it. It's always lovely to meet people that have been listening and then get to come on to be excited. I love your podcast. I've been listening, working my way through the episodes and every episode has something new for me to think about. Yeah, wonderful. I'm so pleased. That's just I love hearing that. That's like because I'm like I learned so much. I'm just learning so much about how to approach my own mothering and like how to change my mindset. And it's just been wonderful for me like, you know, yeah, it does. It does really, I feel like it gives you a fresh perspective because there's no one way to parent is that yeah, that's so true. And it's it's like yeah, you can you can it's like when you're first having children and people give you all this advice. You just take the little bits that that might resonate with you and I feel like this is the same thing if you pick up something that's wonderful. So tell us about what you're up to, you're very into music and creating, from that point of view, can you tell us what you actually do? Sure can. So I'm a full time stay at home mom, with three kids age two and under. And I am crazy about the Australian music scene. So I have a podcast, a YouTube series, and also an internet radio station. And my pure focus is to uplift, empower and shine a light on undiscovered Australian music artists. So I understand where you sit also in that community. Essentially, my passion is to focus on artists that are in development, to see that they get to that ultimate goal, which is to be known and heard, and followed by the Australian public in a broader sense. Hmm, that is so cool. Good on you for doing that. So it's honestly just, it's a passion. It's like a personal sort of personal passion that you've just decided, that's what you're gonna do. Yep, yeah, the three passion projects, I call them the LED trilogy, even though I'm not a Star Wars fan, but my own creative take on it. And I guess, you know, there's a story that led to me doing this. And, you know, circumstances have led to me bleeding, these Passion Projects carrying the cost. Without any expectation, I don't get any income. I don't make any revenue from this. It really is something that fills my cup. But also, the changes and the positive difference I see being created in the lives of others that are, you know, again, putting everything they have into their craft. That for me is it's incredible to watch to see that transformation. Yeah. So it's really a very rewarding experience for you to be a part of. It really is you can't put a price on the growth that I've seen in those that I'm supporting. Yeah, I put on Yeah, that is so good. The field, it's exciting. I've certainly, you'd be the first person that I've had on the podcast that's in this field in this area. Can you share with us? You said there's a bit of a story, a bit of background how you got to this point? Can you tell us a bit about that? Sure. And I'll try to keep it don't keep it short. Do what it say what you like. So you're ever in South Australia, right? Me? Sure I am. Yeah, in that game. So I grew up in Adelaide and I went to Adelaide Uni did a Bachelor of Social science, psychology. Because when I was 16, I lost one of my best friends. And I thought if I did psych, then I could save everyone. A very beautiful sentiment but very naive for someone who's 16. So I did uni and I fell into a job as a recruiter. By going to a family friend of a friend's barbecue, you know, that's, that was Adelaide at the time. Yeah. And after spending 10 years in HR, recruitment, employment and training, I got sick of working for other people. I found I hit the glass ceiling really fast. I'd move into a job and you know, in big bucks, and then I'd be like, well, this job's boring. I can do it with my eyes closed. So I just kept taking on more and more, and I never felt fulfilled in what I was doing. So around the time, it was actually the week that I turned 30. That's when my husband said, Look, I'm gonna start my PhD. If you want to go ahead and start a business, now's the time for you to do that. Yeah. So I quit. And the week after I was headhunted started in a contract. And, you know, the rest is kind of history until we moved from Adelaide to Melbourne in 2016. I had at that point, my HR consultancy was going great lands to the point where I had contractors working for me and, you know, I admittedly didn't have to work every day of the week or every day of the month. So I wanted to go back to my grass roots, which was community radio. Yeah, right. You need 12 Community Radio was my English project project. At University. I was contributing every Saturday afternoon to five, RTI, which was the Italian program in Adelaide. And I do four hours there on the panel as a youth program all in Italian you And I started volunteering at Southern southern FM in Brighton very quickly, the program director there, said, Let's get your doing Monday breakfast. And it was then that I realized, and I'm, I'd love to have a chat with you about this too. But, you know, there was so many press releases coming through, we've got em wraps Eret music coming directly to us. And I just felt so overwhelmed because community radios guideline is to play only 25% of Australian music. And I understand how that works. Because in a community station, you've got all different types of demographics and groups in the community that you know, you do need to really capture the whole community. So there could be ethnic programs, sporting, etc. I get that, but I couldn't understand how there was so many of the other sorts of just been missed. Yeah, so I started inviting artists to come in, like Mel cure, I remember they were one of my first invitations. Come into the studio, let's have a chat. So I do six to eight by myself, and then eight or nine, they come in with their instruments, we'd have a bit of a chat. That's a few songs. But at the end of these chats the artists assigned to me, Ellie, you've been, you know, okay, we didn't HR and you've been in marketing, but you've also been a career coach of every industry. So why don't you now coach us because you're very interested in radio and you're very interested in music. And I didn't quite understand what they were getting that and to be honest. Very quickly, you know, now I look back and I think how ridiculous I was giving other people the belief the empowerment that they could use their transferable skills in other industries. While I didn't think that for myself, I don't know. I very quickly started managing artists doing venerable canes, artist bookings, going to the ARIA awards. So really, all of a sudden, I kind of threw myself into this experience, which was flying the flag for Ozzy musicians. And by the time we came to leave Melbourne, early 2018, I'd gone to an art exhibition. And there I was introduced as the next Molly Meldrum. And that floored me because, yeah, someone obviously is recognizing because there was a lot that I was doing then too, that I was not paid for. The real reward for me, as I guess you could say, as a career coach, is to see someone go from I'm not really sure I'm self doubting myself that imposter syndrome, too. I am so confident myself. You know, at that time, we didn't have the pandemic I've got I've got a full calendar of bookings. And you know, people buy my merch. People are my following online is starting to grow. Yeah, when we moved to Bundaberg, I brought both my LED brand and my HR brand with me. And unfortunately, the Internet didn't work here like it did in Melbourne. So, you know, we moved here I was 37. And effectively, I have retired. Yeah, and the music scene here admittedly is very different to what I was experiencing in Melbourne. But 2020 came, and I found a notebook, which I had written in 2016. And that notebook had the blueprint for these three products. So my son was four months at the time, and I said to hobby, I gotta be honest with you. I love being a mom, but it's not enough for me. I need something else. My insanity, I miss helping other people. I missed the creative connection. So I started podcasting. And I started that podcast holding Dominic in my arms and recording while I was in his nursery rocking chair. And that, you know, now this year, I'm into producing season four. So that continued all the way through the YouTube series, I kicked off at the same time. That effectively is a video interview with a different group of artists about the real truths of what happens behind the music. That's why I've caught it behind the music with a lady. And then the radio station only came about the first of March 2021. Yeah, right. We're in a year new there. But I guess, you know, I did go down the path of Could I get a job in radio? I've got a lot of experience. But I'll be honest with you, and I'd say to the faces of the people here in this beautiful town. I've been met with very big fears of intimidation, that I'm gonna go in there and I don't know, put them out of a job. Yeah. I did volunteer here at the local community Station. And, and this was really the push for me to create my own station. I volunteered, I went from doing one, shift five, they wanted me to do drive shifts, you know, the Italian hour, I then had an Ozzie shift as well. I was invited to be on the board, I was doing their Facebook, like all the creative stuff. And then so someone from the post war era generation decided I was doing too much. And so we ended up with the CB double aid community broadcasting association of Australia's mediation team. And it turns out that the perpetrators did not want to have further discussions. So that's when the CB wa encouraged me to start my own station. Yeah, right. So that's sort of the the long and the short of it. You know, I have these skills. For me. Now, as a four year old, I think it's really sad, if I'm just going to sit here and let those skills not be used. I can give back to someone and make a difference. Well, that's, that's what I now. That's why I exist I suppose. It's such a cool story. It's like, You're doing this because you love it. And because of the passion that you have, and the reward you get from it. And it's just so admirable. I just love that. If I had a bad alcohol here, I'd say the reward is not a financial reward. Because as I said, I don't earn anything. I'll be honest with you, I did the count this morning. We have 133 featured artists. Over the first 12 months, we've had 3000 unique listens, which that tells me that's 3000 People who had not previously heard the artists, because I do get feedback. I get feedback from the listener, you know, where can I buy the merch? Or how do I buy the song? And I then point them to that artists website or Spotify or Spotify? It's not a word, isn't it? But you know, music wherever, wherever they can buy the music, I should say. But the reward, you know, in a verbal sense, I do get some thank you messages from the artists themselves. But admittedly, you know, that doesn't come through all the time, either. Sometimes I feel like I'm the Mrs. Christmas, you know, because if you think of like, Santa, Santa does all these wonderful things on Christmas Eve delivers all these presents to boys and girls, and never gets a thank you. And that's I've got a couple of colleagues that we all do the same kind of thing. And it gets to Christmas time when we say to each other. What do you really get many thank yous to see, do we? But it doesn't stop us. Yes, we know that that you know, the impact is most of the time, not something you can measure. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Good on. Yeah. Sorry, I keep saying that. I don't want to sound patronizing. But I think like, here's the thing, like community radio, is amazing, like, from my other thing that I do apart from the podcast you're aware of, but but some of the listeners might not be that I I'm a singer and songwriter, and I release music myself, mostly recorded in this room, pay people to play instruments for me, and, and if it wasn't for community radio, my music would not get heard, basically. I mean, it's on all the streaming platforms, but people generally just find that by accident, they're not going to go in there and search for me, because no one knows who I am. Yeah, and obviously, my music doesn't come under the banner of commercial radio. That's a whole a whole different industry all of its own. So if it wasn't for community radio, I wouldn't have an audience. So I'm so grateful. We've got an amazing station down here. 100.15 gdR FM is the air station in Gambia. And, yeah, they have the amrep show, Janet does the show and every now and then she'll get me on for a chat and there's the Thursday Night Live, where they get people from the MT to come in and either seeing or chat play the play their albums, and, you know, that just it's, it's small, but it's huge to us, you know, and I think that's wonderful. I mean, if, if, if our listener is in the same community that you are, hold on to and cherish those relationships of community radio, find someone that can fly your flag. Yeah, because it isn't. It is even I believe, even hard to get into community radio. I mean, I can remember back in 2016, we were getting press releases from Sony for Beyonce. And I'm pretty sure everyone knew Beyonce was. Oh, man. That's it. Sadly, that's the you're competing with. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And when you say you only compelled to play 25%? Australian, easy. Yeah, it's a big, it's a lot of competition. It is a lot of competition. And that's where like, I could have gone down the path of seeking funding to launch my own community radio station. However, that would have meant that I would have had to rely on the local community to have the same vision to rely on government funding, which has its pressures. And, honestly, for what the cost is for me to carry us now radios and internet radio station is 24 hours pure, original Australian music, we don't have any ads. It's just music. So you know, in many ways, I can take the bull by the horns, and continue to lead it. It's not just me, I've got also a developer over in Melbourne. That's where the service is. So you could say we're headed up in Melbourne, but, you know, Joel is our administrator, you know, then I've got others that are about to come on board around middle of the year, we're gonna start having a show on a Sunday night. But again, it's only original Australian music, you won't hear anything. That's commercial, you won't hear anything. That's not Ozzie. That's so unique, isn't it? Like there wouldn't there wouldn't be many like that out there. I don't I don't think there is, but I'll be honest with you. I've never worked on any project in my life where I've been so worried about a competitor, or monitoring a competitor, I'm I kind of play my own lane, and focus on what I'm doing. And that means that I don't get distracted, I can just keep moving forward. Yeah, that's a really good point, too. That's probably something some of our listeners might be able to relate to, to that sort of, we don't need to look around and compare ourselves to others and be worried what somebody's putting out. We just do what feels right to us. And it's true to us, yeah. All right. Well, you've mentioned that you have three children under two, which is massive. Could you share more about that? When I when I talk about that, because it's a really common question when you meet new people, and they say, so how many kids do you have? And now I can say, well, I have two year old Dominic. And I have my four month old identical twin daughters, Amelia and Sophia. Because when I say I have three kids two, and under the first question people say is, are but are they all yours? mass, the mass in their head. Kids are amazing. And when I say that, you know, as a parent, as a mom, I can be really bias. We all we went through give or take about a 15 year infertility battle. Oh, wow. Where we had we got married when a kids and it was just unexplained infertility. And, you know, it got to 20 2018 and we thought, well, let's try this IVF journey. So that went really well. With Dominic. I thought that pregnancy was hard. But you know, when he came out and his, I mean, effectively, like a little potato, you know, you feed you change and just cuddle and they kind of sit there. And I mean, that's, that's when I launched the podcast. It was four months old, and he'd lay there next to me. He sat there for every interview, and certain songs even start to kick his feet. I thought this kid's going to be so into music. But then when we thought we try for a sibling, that pregnancy was really hard. So last year, I spent 150 days in Brisbane. We're currently close to Bundaberg were 2000 kilometers away from our family. They're all in South Australia. And we had a single embryo transfer that split and then the girls Sophia had no fluid around her so 16 weeks we moved to Brisbane 19 weeks I had surgery through Amelia sack, and then at 20 and a half weeks my membranes ruptured on on me Earlier, so I wasn't on bedrest for at one nights waiting for them to arrive. But I worked on AWS now, I was in hospital. So some some of these creative ventures are like a saving grace. You know, I don't have to do any of them because I am a mum and a mum is enough. Being a mum is enough. However, it gives me Saturday. Yeah, it's so important, isn't it? It's so it's so important. So important. Yeah, and I can imagine it would have been quite boring being in bed for that long. I toilet privileges, and I could walk a few steps to the patient Lounge, which is where I had, I was able to participate in, you know, craft classes, and cooking classes. But you know, it was very frustrating because I didn't know what was going to happen. All of the odds, we were given, you know, waters breaking at 20 and a half weeks, the babies were not viable. But through some miracle, I made it to 32 weeks in one day. You know, here I am. Now the girls are four months old, going great guns. I also identify myself that to spend every day, day in day out, talking, speaking and I don't speak to the children like they're, you know, four months old. I speak to them like I'm speaking with you. It'd be nice to have some dialogue in return. And so in the meantime, it's the conversations I have through my creative projects that really keep me going. Hmm, absolutely. And being in so far away from your family, too. It's like you need you need that. It's really important. Yeah, do you do for myself? Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I wonder I was just thinking, as you were saying, you know, 20 weeks, the odds aren't great. But I wonder if because you were looking after yourself mentally as well. But it's sort of, I don't know, I'm probably drawing a really long bow here. But you kept yourself healthy. in all ways, I suppose. And that probably gave the girls a good chance you were able to stay, they're able to stay in for a long time. I don't know. I'm making sure to be honest. Because I was. I was devastated. I mean, we knew that was my only a year on so that embryo to split was like a miracle in itself. And knowing like they said to me, you know, okay, you've had your surgery 10 days ago, but if the girls come now, and there's a 75% chance that they will arrive within 48 hours, they will not be viable. So I what really kept me going the mindset thing, I mean, are supported by social workers, occupational therapists, pastoral care psychologist, a huge team of clinical support I had created for myself account down funnily enough to 32 weeks, so my obstetrician will come to see me and he'd say, don't do anything exciting. And I'd go Oh 73 sleeps till 32 weeks and he'd be like, This just gets you to 22 weeks and that you know, the goalposts kept moving I had two MRIs while I was pregnant as well. But whenever I felt like all hope was lost. I grabbed the MacBook that I'm currently recording with you right now. And I would you know, lay my bed you know, I couldn't really sit up but I would lay in my bed and plug away and do whatever I could. Knowing that I was creating a difference not necessarily just to someone else's life but also that positive distraction for me was helping carry me through a very difficult pregnancy. Yeah, absolutely. And Catherine Rama left you behind. You're down as a head. So I'm not sure if you want to talk about this or not, I might be prying. I'd say Tell me please if I'm not overstepping the mark. So when you found out that Sofia had no philosophy, you had no fluid. What was that conversation? Like when the doctor said to you this is what's happening. You're listening to the did they sort of say if you don't do anything, this is what will happen. Like what sort of odds Yeah, at that point. I that conversation was a terrifying conversation. Because there's more to the story I had just checked in, because the day the following day, we were to fly to Port Douglas. I was gonna celebrate my 40th birthday with my husband and my son. And we were going to have a little gender reveal party for the three of us to find out what gender the babies were. So, you know, I was at the hairdresser with color on my hair. And my obstetrician Ringling says I need to see you straightaway. We'd had a scan the day before. And, you know, to go to that appointment with my husband and have her say, I'm really sorry, but one of your little girls does not have any fluid. We've been having scans the week before, and we would see Sophia with you know, kind of like a hands around her face. And Amelia, you could see was kicking her and we thought our poor thing she's protecting herself, you know, not you're already fighting, you know. And we used to kind of joke and say, well, because we had baby, you know, bump names for them. And we'd say our, you know, maybe Tilly is going to be the quiet one and coil is going to be the outrageous one. But it turned out that Sofia wasn't moving much because she had no fluid to move in. Wow. So that in itself, you know, we had to cancel. And I still am quite disappointed a lot. What I missed out on during the pregnancy, you know, the things that you do the baby shower, the gender reveal the time we had planned in August to be with our family and Adelaide to do a gender reveal with them. It's kind of rituals I missed out on all of that we missed out on setting up the nursery. Yeah, you know, it wasn't as simple as I would just use Dominic stuff, because there were two of them went to get double double bassinet, double pram, double caught stuffing everything, little highchairs. So that conversation was really just the beginning of the terror. Because then we had to pack and we packed like it will go in for an appointment, only packed four outfits in my overnight bag, and I took my Mac because I thought you know what, like, we're going to be there for a few days, maybe I can work on AWS now. Like that was my thing. But then on the Monday, the 12th of July, when we had that conversation and my obstetrician was, he drew on the whiteboard, it's like, well, these are your options, termination. Or he said we just wait and see because he said you could lose the babies any day now. And this was the thing is while Sophia had no fluid, Amelia, his heart was working overtime, and she risked going into cardiac arrest, because she had too much fluid around her. Oh, wow. You know, and at 16 weeks and, and five days, I'm being told, Well, you know, you really need to get to 19 weeks, we were at stage two with twin to twin transfusion syndrome, which meant that Sophia, you couldn't see her bladder. She didn't have any fluid going through her. And we know how important fluid is for the development. So you know, scans twice a week to see is there a heartbeat? And even that early, you can't really feel movements. With twins. You don't know if they're both moving or anyone's moving. So we were really, really lucky that we got to be able to have the surgery. Which I was awake for under sedation. Yeah, right. And, you know, a lot of families don't even get to have the surgery. Yeah. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. Thanks for opening the opportunity for me to share. Yeah. And you were also the girls and you and your husband was on an episode of catalyst, which was produced by the ABC, which actually have watched and it's it's hard to watch, but it's also incredibly uplifting to watch because that you sort of realize they put into perspective how far Modern medicine has come to be able to make it possible for these little people to live basically and to have those options. Yeah, what was that like sort of having that? I mean, you're in hospital, the girls are still in hospital. And you've did it feel comfortable having that the camera crew there and you know, strangers talking to you. That was okay. At the time. I mean, Tom, the producer of the day, we had a bit of a chuckle together because when he gave me the media release ones that are very familiar with these, and at that point, Allison, you know, we had decided with Dominic that we will not put his photo on social media. Because we don't necessarily trust who's in receipt of that photo. We don't necessarily like the way social media uses photos. But my husband and I came to this agreement that we'll hang on, if we can share our story, this will be a story of hope for other people or the families. And so on that basis, we did the media release forms. I'll be honest with you, I was only discharged the day before. So I'd had a cesarean. And I notice now in my health app, that from the eighth of August, till the third of November, I had averaged 20 to 80 steps a day. Oh, wow. And that day that they filmed was my first day. Not all 20 to 80 steps, but 6000 Oh, my gosh, 1000 steps, because we had I've been discharged. And we've been we've we've chosen to rent an apartment a kilometer away from the hospital. So C section and all walking six kilometers a day, because I would go back and forth three times. And in for the crew, the most uncomfortable thing of that interview was the pain I was in at the end of it. Because we interviewed for about an hour and a half. Even though I think we're on the episode for about three minutes. It was an hour and a half of filming. I had booked my first COVID job that afternoon. And David had to go and grab a wheelchair to take me to it because I physically could not walk any further. So the opportunity to share was amazing, because Professor Helen lighly was her dad, as you saw in Episode her dad was who pioneered fetal surgery. And we're just so lucky that we had the outcome that we did. Because we were given other numbers. Yeah. So it was it was harder for us to watch it back. Yeah. Then it was for us to record it. Because we were kind of in a state of euphoria at that point. Yeah. You know, we'd been told that day that the girls would likely be coming home within say, four weeks, five weeks. Yeah. When your husband says we'll be home for Christmas. And it's like, oh, that was yeah, it's incredible. You've got that that to look forward to? Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty, pretty awesome. Again, like you're sharing, because you want to help other people. It's like, like you said before, like, it's what you're meant to be doing. It's like what you're put on it to do. And it's so good. And I've recently been in chats with the martyr foundation that I will also be working towards fundraising, to support that clinical support. They're providing the research so the story doesn't end there. Yeah. Now that's fantastic. Yeah, really good. Can you see you're listening to the art of being a mum podcast with Alison Newman. Having three children how do you find the time to do creatively? What you want to do? It's an arena Yeah, I have a way to multitask which I feel comes from my my day is spent working at McDonald's. I do streamline you know I do. I do streamline processes. For me everything feels like a process. And admittedly when the children are sleeping, so dominant goes to school five days a week. I call it school. It's eLC. But even when he's home on the weekend, if hobby is working, because have been an interventional cardiologist as well, so he's rarely home. Kids are asleep. It's my time to shine. And that's what I do. So I typically spend, you know, an hour on Mondays an hour on Tuesdays, I don't have big ticket, focus, you know what I mean? I don't have to sit because the radio station runs itself. Yep. It's me adding new music or me communicating with new artists. Now coming up next month, I start production of my podcast and my YouTube series. That's really big ticket stuff because I'm talking about you know, creating an episode where I'm recording my own intros my own outro is you know how it works. And again with that, you know, I've got a pretty good setup here at home with my studio. I really anytime there's an opportunity, I don't sleep during the day, I've worked out that my my ability and while the ways in which I can and recharge, is not through having a nap or recharge through being creative. What about you? How do you recharge, or lately it's been through napping? Actually just just coming into this room actually, just being in this room just gets gets me feeling good. Like, I'll open the I've got the window closed at the minute because obviously we're recording but I'll open that window, let the breezy and let the sun in. And I don't know just the smell of it just just being in here. And even if I'm not actually doing anything in particular, might just sit in here and fluffer and speeding. Yeah, it is. And it's so like, we've lucky we've got the room in the house where I can come in and, and I've got a fair bit of Lego in here still, but the boys generally take it out in the house to play with it. But it's like, people know, this is my space. And if the doors shut, don't come in, because that probably means I'm recording. Otherwise, the doors open and everyone barges in. It's like I'm, I'm here. I'm lucky I don't have to go anywhere else to do what I do listen to gig, but I'm still accessible to the family, which is, of course, important for me. I like to know what people are up to. And if they're not doing what they're doing. With two boys. I think that's really, really important. And I guess what you're saying as well the fact that we as mums need to be flexible. You know, because I say I'm a mum first and music publishers second. So you know, I'm sitting here, this is the first time I'm in my home studio since last July. So I was pregnant when I sat here last. And I'm looking at the door I have will not be able to fit the double pram through the tool. So it just brings to mind that I do spend a lot of time where I'm doing like the back end of the creative stuff. My desk is my kitchen table. Yeah. And my breakfast bar because the girls are asleep in their bassinet upstairs. Upstairs is our living entertainment area. Were in my office downstairs, this will likely be times when you know because I'm gonna have to carry them in here somehow. You know, and I have been really creative this season with my podcast where I've essentially I pre record my questions. And my guests pre record their answers, and I stitch it together as a conversation. I did that for season two of my podcast and no one will now I will visit people no secret between you and me. And that's the thing like I guess as as mums. You know, I feel it's really important that we have our own sense of identity. Because I personally want to pass it on to my children. Yeah, you know, I need to fill my cup so I can fill this. Yep. And it's this creative soul stuff that really fills my cup. And I want them to grow up just as fiercely independent in their own identity. Absolutely. That is so good. I'm gonna quote you on that. Thanks, Jamie. Yeah things happen again Yeah, cuz identity is, is a really big topic, I find that everyone has their own take on it, which is natural, because everyone's different. But I find that a lot of artists, because generally because you were doing this stuff before you had your children, it's part of it is part of your core identity. It's you grew up creating or meet playing music or painting, whatever, and it doesn't just go away. Just because you have children. It's not like that piling on disappears, you know? No, no. I want to say no, but I also want to say yes, like, no doesn't disappear. Yes, you're right. I mean, this a big debate that usually happens when I'm talking with another mum that I haven't met before. And as that friendship evolves, they'll say things like, Ellie, look, I'm a mum. And you know, I don't really care about work. I really just want to be a mom and I love taking them to school and I love taking them to soccer. You know, I love doing that mom stuff. And you know, I wouldn't mind doing a couple of hours a week work but for me, it's just the mum thing where you Ellie, you have that right? Your career drive you have that real passion. And I do push the envelope. But I think what you've just said is spot on. I mean, for me, I went from doing so much radio stuff to our I can't do it anymore. That's still in still ENADE still within me. But also I went through, you know, the best part of 15 years where I believed I couldn't get pregnant. But I knew that I had a career. And so for me, whilst it was a dream that I spent a lot of years crying for. I knew I had a career. Now, why can't I have both? I only came to that realization really in the last week. Why, you know, this is why I'm so headstrong about. You can be a mum and you can have a curry. Because why shouldn't you? Why can't you what's you know, think about what's possible? And really, if you want it, go out and make it happen. That's it. I mean, the way Yeah, look, I'm I'm in the situation where, you know, I have pushed and pushed and pushed and someone said to me a few years back, if you're walking through a doorway, you kept hitting your head on the doorframe, would you try and go through the door again? And I said, Oh, yeah, you know, I just keep trying and trying. And, and what they were trying to say was, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. Yeah. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mums, not enough for me, I want more. I could have just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself and I'm the victim, you know, and at the end of the day, I I kind of rose above those thoughts and went well can isolate costs, you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself. I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not going to stop. Yep, no one's going to stop me and I hope if anything on the feedback I get that I do, I hope I inspire others who are maybe feeling you know, ripped off shafted, screwed over. Because it does happen where you're in a role and all of a sudden it's not there anymore. Go out and make it for yourself. Yeah, don't step back. Oh, I didn't understand that up until we were in Melbourne. I always realized that I was in control of where I was going in life and I was in control of opportunity because I created them something about coming to this town completely changed my thinking in that I needed someone to give me an opportunity yeah and now just because I'm a mom does not mean I can't keep creating opportunities. Absolutely yeah, that is so well said that deserves to be added I would have pressed applause on my stream deck if I had I'm still got like I said this is my first time in the studio and I've got all these USB cords and at least I knew how to use my ring light Oh I love that love that. So sue me and golf me me have a feeling I'm gonna know the answer to this next question, but I'll let you answer it I'll just keep my thoughts to myself. The topic of mum give it something I'd like to explore with all my guests. What's your take on mum guilt Hmm I don't feel mum guilt. And that makes me feel guilty I can remember I went for my six week checkup with Dominic and I said to my obstetrician I don't know this doesn't feel normal. But I don't feel bad like when he cries i don't feel guilt that I need to run to him. I don't feel you know if I'm gonna take a bit longer in the shower. If I want to go leave him with his dad and go to the shops farmer. I don't feel it. She said no, that is quite normal. It and not with the girls. It's even, it's even worse because you know, I had to leave them in the NICU for five and a half weeks. And at that point I had to say to myself, Elena, you know, you can't look after them right now. They've got nasal gastric tubes for feeding. They've got an inline, they're an isolettes. I mean, there's no way I could have brought them home. But that detachment has gone so far, that like, Now, I could leave the house and not even acknowledge that I'm leaving. Obviously, like, laters, you know? And then it's not until, because I'll be at the shops, and I'll be thinking, Oh, lotto would be nice now. And I'll take my time. And it's not until I walk, you know, driving the driveway, and I walk in the door, and I go, hang on, I never said goodbye to them. So I think the mom guilt thing comes from this is my personal opinion. I think it comes from our upbringing, and our relationship with our own mothers. My mom, I would say, would have instilled in me, you know, this thing of mum guilt, not for any reason of badness. But, you know, I know the way mum put us before her. And I associate that with mum guilt. Yep. Where, you know, here I am. I've got my animals here at the moment. And I'm like, Well, I'm going to get my hair color. I'm gonna get my facial. I'm getting my nails done. Because I need to take care of myself to look after the girls. And I don't feel any guilt about that. Yep. Absolutely. And why should you? Like, you're still a person that that needs to be nurtured. And yeah, yeah. And I do want to be at that point, you know, in 20 years time, where I'm still getting my hair done getting my nails done doing the things that make me feel a person. Because, admittedly, you know, I would have preferred that my mum looked after herself. So that today, she would feel better about herself. You know, it when he's put everyone else before you? How are you supposed to look after yourself how you're supposed to do that self care. And I do feel for her that, you know, I really wanted her if we could rewind the time, let go of that mum guilt. Put yourself first mum. And I suppose that's what I'm telling myself. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that an element of what your mum experienced was a cultural and sort of of the time that that's what was happening? To all the moms? Yeah. And I think look, when we, when we look at generation wise as well. You know, really, mums parents came from overseas. So it was a different time to be growing up in Australia. You know, I suppose that generation mums generation needed to parent their parents. Yeah. While whilst parenting us kids. Yeah. And that's through no fault of their own. Where he here we are. We're, we're not, you know, we could care for our parents, but we're not parenting our parents. We're parenting our children. And who knows where it'll be when our children have the dead children. But it was a different time to be growing up in Australia, Arthur? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. Actually. It's made me sort of have a bit of one of those lightbulb moments actually. That my family I knew you were gonna say that about Mum, you. You. For You, I think mum gets bloody load of shit. I just think it's a stupid thing that we're all supposed to buy into. It's like, no thanks. I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to love my children and not be with them. You know, it's part of their journey, or, you know, they have two parents, you know, I don't know. It's true. And I guess, you know, for me, I want the children to grow up, like I said before, fiercely, independent, strong in their identity. But also that as they grow older, they know that mom is strong and her identity. I have seen and I've heard through others, where you know, the mom has this fierce mom guilt and doesn't pursue a career and doesn't pursue other things. As the children are growing up and then the children go to school and what that mum then is kind of displaced. Yeah, that's it. Where did they fit in? Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing I don't want. I don't want that for me. I don't want to set that as an example. There's more to life than that. She's enjoying talking to you this is we could almost spin off into our own podcast. Hey, I'm always open to new ideas to you going down the drain today have to choose between hunger and the lie between the day. And the darkness of the night. There won't be more. Support, I want to touch on that you talked about having your own families like 6000 cases 1000 2002, you said you're further they've been they've been New Zealand or further. So a long way away. It's not like you can just call them up and say, Hey, I need you to like go to the shops. Has that been very challenging being on your normal answer on your own? Because you've obviously got got your husband? Well, how's that? Yeah, that's that's an interesting point, too, because it's very rarely home. He has been very involved career and really his career is what is our lifestyle. It's been, it's harsh. I'll put it, I'll try and put this in the nicest way possible. It's hard. It's sad. The family not being able to experience the children growing up. It's also for me, What's hard is not so much that I can't ring someone to help me. It's when I hear other family members say, I'm so tired. And they have family members who can help them. You know, I guess I've just grown into this situation, which is relying on myself and myself alone. My husband helps whenever he can. He's super supportive, supportive of my career supportive of the children and our family goals. But realistically, Alison, the problem is for me that that kind of lack of recognition from others. Hang on, you know, you have a husband who works nine to five and has every weekend off. You have parents and in laws and siblings who live five kilometers away from you. You can dump the children there and go back home and have a three hour siesta. Don't complain that you're tired. You know, I'm so tired that I don't even know I'm tired anymore. I just know that I could fall over at any point. It's like literally I had blood tests done last week because my dizziness is out of control. Oh gosh. But no, I'm healthy. I'm just really tired. Really tired. It took me eight months to find a nanny. We are so blessed to have been introduced to a beautiful woman who is a nurse by day. I mean you couldn't ask for a better Mrs. Doubtfire. She's a registered nurse during the day. And then she comes over for an hour in the afternoon. She cuddles the girls? I picked Dominique up from school. That is life saving for me. Yeah, that in itself is the best type of help that I can get. And she's she's only been with us for maybe six weeks. But she's like family. You know that for me is everything. Yeah. Because it's true. I can't I can't just ring up and you know, we actually I sewed this was nuts we I sewed twice within four weeks because hobby downstairs for a week me upstairs of the three kids. And then we did it again just for shits and giggles a few weeks later, but that time Dominic had COVID and so did so did happy so you know again, I had family saying to me in Adelaide, like just bring up the nanny get her to come over Can't you ring someone can't someone come and know when you have COVID or your close contact and you're an ISO Mr. Wall was can't even walk through the front door. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. That was a you know, again, that was frantic, but I'll be honest with you. While that was happening, and I had the three children for 24 hours for a week. I was still working on those now. Nothing's gonna stop you. Good on your nine. Kinda love it. Honestly, if anyone is feeling unmotivated, all they have to do is listen to you Talk about how you make things happen. And they'd be like, right, I'm doing it. I'm pumped now, at least got me fired up. But sometimes, you know, there's that whole theory of momentum, you may not feel like doing it. But when you start doing it, you'll feel like could eventually, I have little hacks where if I put on some citrus oil, yep. Or, you know, in Melbourne, their house, the kitchen was off the lot laundry was off the kitchen. And if I put one of those pods in the washing machine, of course, with clothes in the washing machine, that citrus smell was like, you know, kind of like starting the lawnmower for me. Hmm. So that's, you know, I've picked up on Oh, I don't feel like doing that. Now. I will be the queen of procrastination, if I look back 10 years ago. But like I said, I said, I'm happy. Being a mom of twins and a singleton toddler is totally doable. You just have to be organized. So I do admittedly have a lot of, you know, citrus smelling oils and citrus smelly melts, that I burn and what have you so that I can keep motivated during the day? Yeah. So coffee, lots of coffee to change. It's not ignore this. List. I just call that let's say that yeah, it's like, when things don't, when you do have those times, you've got your toolkit to say, right? I've got to do this. I want to do this. Let's make it happen. Again, it's like you're making things happen. And I think joined with that is you also need to listen to yourself. So even though I say I don't recharge through napping, there was one day in the past month. Where I'm sorry, I just can't do today. Yep. And I lacked when the girls napped. I've never listened to my body quite as much as I have since I've become a mum. Because I know I am there for my children. Yeah, so I have to listen to myself. It's that thing again of I have to fill my own cup. Yep. Yeah. You don't have a day off. There's no annual leave it isn't it? They don't go away. They're always hanging. Could you imagine? I know you're only four months old but I really need today off yeah, they come back tomorrow and I'm feeling a bit better. Okay change your interface some way to sing a song. Yeah, we lose track of time. Sharon some day comes my way. Just to reinforce really is always consider what is possible. Yeah, that for me has been the biggest thing through my whole journey and continues to be with the three passion projects that I'm working on. What else is possible? Because I think we get stuck in you know, things only happen this way. Because that's the only way it's been done before. As a mum who is a creator, not just a Creator as a mum creator in the you know, YouTube podcast radio sense. You know, every day I find myself asking that question what is possible it's okay to challenge the norm. That is what it is to be a mum. Yeah, someone has to do it get special you talked about you're gonna get stuck into YouTube. A bit more. We're in your podcast, what have you got sort of coming up that you can share with us? Yeah, so I have season four of my podcast coming up in June. And around the same time, I have season three of Behind the Music with LED coming up on YouTube. So the distinct difference I think I you know, I kind of made a boo boo, because I called them both behind the music with LED, but the podcast is audio only. And then the YouTube is video. And it's not like a video of the audio recording. It is like watching a mini series. So it's a completely different artists. I throw my questions at them, they give me their raw responses. And then, of course, my next suggestion is you can find them online, you have a listen with us. Now I'm also in the process of developing the schedule where we're going to have a Sunday night show. I can't share too much there. But I can share that I've got a couple of announces. Funnily enough, they're all in Melbourne. I'm the only one in Queensland. And we're going to dig deep into the library and really bring out the talent. Because this is the thing is songs get announced. There's no intro, there's no outro every six songs on AWS now you'll hear someone say, Hey, I'm the artist name. You'll listen to us now or keep it tuned to us now. We don't have you know, because again, it's not for revenue. It's there for the purpose of discovering new music. So yeah, that's currently what I'm working on. And the production stuff was the YouTube is more challenging for me than the podcast, but I love watching it when it goes live. So I go to my local, I go to my local better electrical store. And I'm like, What's happening with the TVs that I can I give them a go and then all of a sudden, they turn around and 12 TVs have my series on there. Fantastic when they're all on at the same time. Okay, it's cool, actually in HD. So the good guys to bring up all the stores. Get my views up. That is awesome. Yeah, the site can you tell us like obviously YouTube? Where can people find you radio, like oz now radio, you go to us now radio.com that I use. So that's Oh, Zed like the Wizard of Oz. Oz now.com.au. There, you'll find and you can press play on the web player, or I haven't shared yet. I'm also working on an app that you can download. So at the moment, you can hear us now if you listen to one's like my tuner on tuning, you can program it. I mean, I've got a son OS that I've used my tuner to listen to it stream is cast as radio gardener has a ton of streaming platform. But yeah, I'm just quietly working on an app. I forget about that. And that way people can download the app. And you know, you don't need to go looking for it to scrub the app. That's wonderful. Good for you. Thank you for for the podcasts and the YouTube series. Just go to Google and type in behind the music with LED and it's not led like the light E double L IE, space D for dog. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That is so cool. I'm excited for that. It'll be really cool when I've taken off the generic branding of someone else's radio station. I've loved talking to you today. It's just been such a joy. I've got sore cheeks from smiling and laughing. So it's been wonderful. We'll have to do it again. And I'd love to feature you on ours now radio, so we should have more returned about that. Thank you. I would absolutely love that. Thank you so much, Ellie. It's been a pleasure. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Mother Wild - Mother's Day Special A global group of women who believe in mothers mothering themselves. S2 Ep42 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia and many other countries around the world. I am joined by 4 creative mothers, Angeli Gunn , Tasha Miller , Karryn Miller and Carmela Fleury representing Mother Wild - a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their 2 other co-founders Anna af Jochnick and Karin Hesselvik the girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats (both virtually and in real life). 2 years ago the idea for their first book Mother Wild: A Book Of Mothers’ Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills and words to bring the book to life, together with 9 artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children, the true intention is to re-awaken the wild, adventurous spirit in mothers - and not just through the words on each page. In the first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how - by mothering them. ***This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety*** Mother Wild website / book / instagram Podcast website / instagram The Lost Daughter movie Mercy on the Mother Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, thank you to Danni Reade for narrating. Music is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia. I'm joined by four creative mothers, Anjali Gan, Tasha Mila, Karen Mila, and Camilla Fleury representing mother wild, Mother wild are a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their two other co founders, Anna F. Chuck, Nick and Karen hustling. The girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats, both virtually and in real life. Two years ago, the idea for their first book, Mother wild, a book of mother's Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills to bring the book to life, together with nine artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children. The true intention is to reawaken the wild adventurous spirit in mothers, and not just through the words on each page. In this first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how to run retreats for mothers to Mother themselves. Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, and a big thank you to Danny Reed for narrating music used from a limb joy with permission. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety is this the first time you have more than one person? It absolutely is the fifth. And you don't have just one more you have. I have triplets. Yeah. Could I just take a photo of this? Like so let's see. How's everybody going? Oh, so good. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, ladies. Sorry, I'm trying not to seem daunted. But I'm like, This is gonna be awesome. Some giggles Yeah. Thank you so much. This is really exciting. I've not just got one but I have got four creative months with me today. Welcome along, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, this is so exciting. We're here today we're celebrating creative mothers all around the world today. Lots of special guests. And we're talking about this amazing book that I've got in my hands, Mother wild and the the amazing group of women behind. We are mother wild. So I'm going to start by talking to Camila. Camila, welcome along. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from a little bit about your involvement with the book and with the project as well. So I am part French part Spanish, but I was raised moving around quite a bit just because of my father's job and after birth. I think motherhood I don't know if I think Tasha calls it a beautiful transition. It broke me but also made me go deep into I became a very inquisitive spiritual seeker and I did a bunch of things. And I believe it was iOS go I was looking at a ceiling and there were broken knees, and they were about 24. And it was like you need to work with mothers and all of you might be broken. But together, you hold a new roof or a new paradigm. And so I just sought out to work with a couple of moms through a thing called the online moment village. And it was six moms at a time. And from this village, I offered a Wildeman Mastermind course, which these beautiful ladies joined. And from there, it was just magic and predestined. And I did nothing but just show up and let magic unfold. So that's how I actually happened. Wow. So it was really quite like an organic sort of thing. It sort of came from weight. Do you have a background in art before you had your children? And I'm sure I've always been an artist, but no, I got lost in engineering for school and and then I think doing a life coaching training that Tasha and I both did, they made us do vision boards. And then that took me on a vision board journey, which I'm still on on a daily basis, which keeps me sane. So I don't think I'm an artist, per se. Although writing is an art right, so I guess I've always been a writer. Ish. A bad one, but I've always been one. Awesome. All right. Karen, let's go to you. Can you share whereabouts you are in the world? what your background is and your involvement with the book as well? Yeah, I'm, I am originally from New Zealand. I currently live in Japan, and I left New Zealand when I was 20. And I haven't really besides having my two girls there. So they had some claims in New Zealand. I haven't really spent much time living back there. But yeah, so my involvement with the book. Yeah, I mean, it's been such a collaborative process together. And Carmela came up with the beautiful idea. And then we all kind of joined together and worked on it, to bring it to life and be clear with Darren, the idea would have stayed an idea. Like there was enormous momentum behind car and in terms of writing and making it I mean, publishing, editing all of that. So that should be it. She won't say that. But we're very, you know, it's funny, cuz I could like see your face and you're like, hang on, like, What did you say? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been a beautiful process. Like I am, I was before becoming a mum, I was working as a travel writer for many years. And then I kind of switched and I moved into PR, and part of that was also the stability of PR, when I was working in as a travel writer, it was a little bit like any kind of creative pursuit, sometimes it's the income is high, and sometimes the income is low. And so, you know, like, travel writing was always my joy. And I work with hotels now. So it's still joyful, like, it's still in the travel industry. But I think for me, this project, gave me a chance to kind of flex a different side of creativity for me, whereas, you know, like, I'd been focused on, you know, what I need to do for the clients or what I need to do for the magazine. And this was like, Well, what do I want to do? What do I want to bring into this world? And what's the kind of message that I want to share with moms? And, you know, we had a collective vision, we all wanted to share something with mums, and we all wanted to impact mums. But um, yeah, I think that's like, part of what really excited me about this project, because it was, yeah, just that pure creativity versus having to meet someone else's. And in that, also, you know, we didn't have to meet like a publishers demands, you know, we like we followed our own rulebook when it came to this. You had to leave for two years for a very, very long birthing process. That was, yeah, but yeah, having that complete creative freedom to present whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, that's tremendous. All right, Tasha, over to you. Yeah, I grew up in the United States and I live back here now but I met Carmela first and Tokyo and I was living over there with my family. I became a mom there. And I remember like you might see a meet cute in a movie I remember the first time I laid eyes on her she was just all hair and legs in this big pregnant belly and I just thought I don't whatever she's got I want some of that was just so magnetic. And it's still like a pinching me listening to all of these ladies talk and just thinking this is really my wildest dreams, not just the friendship, but the fact that we get to create and collaborate and go on this wild ride together is just, it's so energizing and invigorating. And I you know, for me, I don't know that I would have ever called myself an artist. Esther before having the opportunity to work with these women, they loved to travel, but I look, you know, I loved exploring, I loved making things, but I think, you know, we talk a lot together about uncoiled potential, and that inside all of us, there's just so much wrapped up in there and particularly under, like the weight of motherhood, it's so easy to sort of shrink and putting, put that part of ourselves, you know, back on the shelf in the back burner. But what I found with working with these women and then continuing to connect with other creative women who are mothers, too, is it It not only isn't uncoiled it's just like this fire that burns now and you know, a lot of times I feel like the such a construct or an idea in our minds that you know, we need to hold on to our idea of hold on to things till the right time, you know, to be able to get out there and do that and, or keep waiting or or be afraid that life is passing a spy or somebody else is going to kind of take our whatever, seize the moment, and it can create a lot of tension, and conflict inside and what we found with them. And these are like the most generous, incredible women but also every mother we've met along the road has been the most incredible, generous creative woman is like, when you see someone burning bright, it just lights you up more. And the more it's like a generative quality so I can look at so many things in my life now go yeah, I've always been an artist actually. Like, we're all in coke, Coke co creation with our lives, you know, and and looking for ways to express express that so yeah, it is. So it's it's been really dreamy. Yeah. And I must say you're you're you've got such an infectious way of talking about it. You can't help but get like, swept up with it. It's it's awesome. It was like a stoke, right? Like, I feel like for surfers when they're on the party wave. I'm like who's joining us? This is so good. That's it. Listen, I love that. All right, and finally to Anjali, welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. This is such an honor to be here. Yes, I share a little bit about your background where you're from. Yeah, just a bit of your involvement with the book as well. Yeah, absolutely. And before I do that, I have to say about these magnificent women. Carmela is like our visionary and our connector or community builder. With current the way she was in the writing process. It was like watching magic unfold right before your eyes, she would come up with most beautiful things. And so much of this book has like her heart just stamped on these pages. And she is so beyond organized because she helps make things happen. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her. And Tasha, even though she doesn't, or hadn't seen herself as an artist, she takes the most beautiful pictures. And she puts together the most incredible videos and she captures like heart and soul and spirit. And she found so many of our illustrators, and she just has this magic radar for finding talent in all its forms. And so I just wanted to give them a shout out before I dive into this because I really Yeah, I mean, it's everyone brings so many strengths and talents and gifts, that I actually think this is not just a once in a lifetime gathering, it's like a once in multiple lifetimes that you get just this beautiful confluence of talent coming together. And it's incredible that I look back on this and think, you know, during two of the hardest years of most of our lives, that we had this really incredible project we were working on. And for me, it gave me so much joy. And also it was a story of source of strength and inspiration. So I was born and raised in Canada, and I loved, loved traveling, and I still do. But once I became a mom, it became even more important to travel and see more of the world. So I was traveling in Japan, which is where I met Carmela and like Tasha said she just has this magnetic quality where it's like que you. You say the words and I will be there because we're going to make dreams come true. And the heart of this book really feels Like, we want to make sure that mothers don't get weighed down with the demands of motherhood and whatever it is that lights them up, or brings them joy, we want them to remember that. And, as well as they're reading this book, it's their children who understand the importance of their mothers having their own dreams, and finding their own joy in places outside of motherhood. And that is so important. The book I love on the back, six authors and nine artists from 13 Different countries created this book virtually while caring for 30 children during a global pandemic. That's just like, I don't know how else you could say this is amazing. No, it actually ended up being 32 children because it took so long for the book to come out to were born and the process the same mom, so there's two. So you could give them a shout out and then current who are not here. And they they helped get illustrators and help get our ducks in a row and funding for Kickstarter. And so they they're here in spirit, they can can you each share with us what what sort of your pages were in the book of what your your dreams are in the book, we really came together to to write and bounce off of each other. So now when we go through the words, like it's, it is hard to discern, oh, that was definitely you know, my thing. But I think that that has kind of been the spirit of how we've worked together the entire time. Of there's no ownership over one thing they there is not only a generosity, but a tremendous amount of trust. And we really looked like I always joke, I got my fountain of bad ideas like I like overflowing with them. But I use that term loosely because we love the idea of like nothing is off limits. You never know, you know what you say? Even if it's 50 iterations down the line, how that might have inspired somebody else's art or else's ideas in the world. And so in terms of that, but I will say the dream that I personally feel incredibly connected to is a beautiful illustration done by aura Lewis, who was our first Illustrator to jump on board and say yes. And it's mother's in a field of flowers. And it's all about mothers coming together and community and supporting each other supporting children running around wild and free. And when I look at that, I'm just like, that feels like home. Like that's the direction I'm going, you know, if only if only in my mind. Yeah. So So basically, like you're explaining not It's not each page isn't one person's it's you've all thrown your ideas together, and come up with it collectively. So Alison, if I can add, I think we've had windows of between like, because we're not, we weren't on the same plus we had the Europeans. And so it was over three, basically one of two or three were either waking up or falling asleep when we were all together. So we had maybe a window of 10 minutes when we were all clear headed. And so but just the act of showing up. And this is for mothers who are listening, just the act of I mean, I think we're just being each other's accountability. Coach, we just by showing up, we would just maximize our time together rather than like, oh, I would like to write a book. But I'll start tomorrow. And when it's just yourself, you might just put it off a little more than when you're showing up. And we're like for the next 10 minutes. We're going to brainstorm and so we would brainstorm. And what was funny and I remember Anjali, you know, when you said like watching card from a distance, like magic happened unfolding, like I feel like that happened at some point, because we sat down with, I think we had 120 dreams that we had all come up with together. And what we did is remove the location because it was like Thailand, Bali, this the other, you know, we remove the geographical location because the feeling was kind of the same, you know, dancing in the desert in Africa, you could be doing it in Australia. You know, it's just remove the geographical location and kind of bring in like, Who wants to go in the snow who wants to go in the ocean who wants to go deep sea, you know, and CDC diving who wants to, there were all these characteristics that were the same in all these different places. So we actually just collect you know, combined all of them and I think we came down to 18. And it's funny because we asked a couple of friends along the way and we all had similar daydreams or similar adventurous dreams of things that we'd like to do. So go ahead card on I was just gonna say to like, we wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And you know, we kind of say that as well, like whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And I think you know, like to just give Anjali, a little shout out as well, since she said such beautiful things about us before. Like, I think, with this process, as well, rest was also like a really important one that we wanted to you know, they think we get caught up in doing these things, big things in activity, but especially as a mom, like resting and taking that time of solitude is really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to get across. And one of the things that throughout this whole process like Angela was really good at reminding us about, yeah. Self Care. Yeah, self care guru, for sure. So Angela has got it nailed down. She is the cream of the crop when it comes to mothers. She's one of Yeah, one in a million. Love you girls. And I love it makes me so happy to see mothers taking exquisite care of themselves. So anywhere along the way, when we can remind each other that it just feels really, really good. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw a quote the other day on Instagram, and it was something about I can't remember verbatim, but it was about we see rest as a reward for something rather than as a part of just general life. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? It's like, we have to get all this done. And then we can take the break. But no, we have to prioritize rest. And Alison, in creating this and even just creating mother wild, we we set out to define a few things that are really important to us. And one of the things we realize is like with that grind culture and with that hustle culture, it didn't quite feel feminine. And when Carmelo was talking about the new paradigm, you know, that was something that would come up often is how can we do this in a way that maybe feels more feminine or feels more delightful, or we're not necessarily trying to get to those same goals that we've been taught to believe are markers of success. And so Karen said something really beautiful. She's like, Guys, Friendship first. And so that kind of was like set the tone for us to take care of not only these friendships, but to take care of ourselves in the process of birthing this book. And Tasha would always say, Guys, it's the journey, right? So like any hard lessons and challenges and bumps is like, okay, it's part of the journey, and even the rest and the self care that factored into so many of our meetings and moments and even our time away from one another, that it kind of has got woven into the fabric of our lives, because this is how we want to do things and approach life now. Not just Yeah, yeah, we really want to walk the walk. Yeah. Have you noticed that your lives have changed since you've done this in the way that you care for yourself? Everyone's nodding. Yeah. At the very beginning of our, you know, when we first came together, and I feel like I'd love you to explain it in more detail, but Carmela brought this analogy, she said, Okay, we're a flock of birds, you know, and if you look up in the sky, birds flying formation, and there's always one at the front, the one that has the most energy, let's say, but when that bird needs to fall back, it falls back. And without any fuss. Another one comes forward and takes that so so she's like, so when you need to fall back, fall back. And when you want to fly harder and faster and flap harder and faster. Go to the front, there's no hierarchical thing. Again, it avoids boils down really to like a tremendous amount of trust. And it's not that I just that I like, trust that these ladies are going to be brilliant in what they do and all of those things, but I also really trust that they'll respect and understand and encourage me when I'm tired and life is demanding and a kid is sick, or I just need to lay down that that's going to be okay. But we're I think it's the educational system that kind of teaches us like oh, you know, get grades don't show your neighbor like while you're doing the test. And and I think that that that sense of collaboration is lost along the way. But scientists do show and birds don't know and they're not reading the scientific facts, but they know that by flying together, they will reach they'll not only go faster, further, but they'll reach together the destination they set because I don't know how they communicate again, but they reach it. So for survival. We need to Uh, and I do think creativity is needed. It's vital, vital force for any human school, you know, just by flocking together, we're reaching a goal together. And it's more fun. It's more lucrative. It's more everything. Why don't more women do this? We thrive in community. Yeah, absolutely. In my dream, children run wild and free. Mothers thrive together in community. I like talking about mum guilt. That sounds really nice. You want to go there? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do. It was the first to take that one up. And quick question, Alison, do you steer away from profanity? Or can we just oh, gosh, no, go for it. Okay, we can talk. I thought I remembered that. Yeah. I'll figure it out. first. You first Oh, okay. So just recently, on our Instagram, we had a post with like, a whole bunch of middle fingers up saying fuck off mom guilt. So this is definitely a topic that we discuss amongst ourselves. And for me, I don't have mom guilt. As in, I don't invite mom guilt in to stay for tea. That toxic voice is so not welcome. In my mind. It's a fucking waste of space. Bravo, I believe. Thank you. Yeah, put it in a timeout or just don't like it's permanent timeout. Because I believe I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. It's a fallacy to think that we can be at all all the time. So my intention is to be present. And it comes down to this. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being. And it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working? She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? So I just think it's absolute shit. And we have the choice to value ourselves and try not to be everything to everyone all the damn time. document that. Sorry. Yeah, I was clapping I was. Luckily I was muted. So distract from your beautiful, beautiful words. Yeah. I love that. Can you send that to me, please? Because that is amazing. I feel like I need to duck up next. I actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like the thing about presence because I think that you know like, that's when Mama guilt starts to enter when you're thinking about the future or the past. But you know, like that, that one line you talked about with presents really stuck with me there. That's the key. And Carmela, I know you're itching. To hear what you have to say. You think more I think I'm so happy I'll listen that you can't you ask this in every podcast because it is what terrifies women and and mothers from moving forward and it's that I don't know if it was passed on from generations. It definitely once you you do the work on delete Justin, things unlock and you can finally walk your path. I the first piece I wrote on medium and we're happy to I'm sure we all have our own versions of our own battling that that that demon of mom guilt. But um, I wrote a piece my first piece on medium was Dear Mama guilt, your fucking pitch. And it was I just talked about how Prince Siddhartha left at 29 to renounce it. Yeah, he left his family of origin for seven years. He left his wife with a newborn son behind. And he came back from meditating under the treatment and met his seven year old child, no biggie, what else he was substances subsequently named the Buddha, the enlightened one. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curiosity seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids and who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh my gosh, he's right. Am I doing this? And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to bat away. You know, he was just asking me a normal question, but I took it really personally and I had to have that argument back. So this poor man, I think it was at a chicken boat for a boat ticket. And I was like, I've been doing this and that and he's like, Okay, give me your ticket keep going. But then that thought behind if one at once I did that, that job on Julie did a bedding her away. I mean, it was just like, Alright, let's go walk the Camino. Let's go do this. Let's go. It was just one after the other. So I recommend moms to do that work first. And then things will unfold. Hmm, huh. Well said Well said, sir. I'm just conscious that my the way I'm looking here is changing quite a bit because of my you're enlightened. My son likes it. I love it. It's a halo. I'm just gonna close my brain. Literally glowing. blinding you all in a minute. I love your background. Allison. I'm so intrigued me. We're just lose back there. There we go. Yeah, I do a lot of different things for fun. Like my my core, I'm a singer and a songwriter. But I do all sorts of things just to switch off. So there's a lot of painting stuff and that there's all my put my kids paintings up there because I find that incredibly inspiring when I'm writing and, and I've got ever up there as well, because they're pretty amazing. Yeah, I love it. It's like a living vision board. Right? We make a lot of vision board. Yeah. It's like my whole my vision wall. And then I've got you can't see it, because it's out of picture. But real, real artists work that I've framed that I've purchased. So I've got like, that really awesome stuff over here is like the seven. Love it. But it's that whole idea of like to be beautiful. You have to take in beauty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And we just were taught to think that that's really frivolous. But that's like the thing that gives us vital energy, you know, and in a generative like reciprocal relationship, if we're going to keep creating, whether it's creating art for others, or it's creating snack boxes and creating a plan to get three kids in a minivan before 8am, whatever it is, right? We're constantly meeting some sort of need or demand or whatever. Like, we've got to fill ourself up with beauty. And I think along with rest, it's incredibly valuable. And I always love coming across a woman who's killing herself often that way. It's like striking. In my dream, the drums and my body are one. I dance wildly, under the blazing sun. Yeah, I wanted to share too, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so maybe somebody can help me. But a quote that we talk about a lot is the Carl Jung one that one of the greatest burdens on a child is the unlived life of the mother or the parents or however it was phrased. And that's for me, and I think a lot of probably the four of us here is kind of a compass to come back to, when, you know, Mama guilt inevitably rears its head, or I'm finding that tension within just like, I, I'm not going to be perfect. I don't you know, I also have take issue with the whole construct of a good mom and a bad mom or whatever, like, you know, I think that that's really loaded as well. But basically, at the end of the day, there's so much like I, I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who you know, is is yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit in life, that part I can do and my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. Thanks, amazing reactions. We love we love giggling we love having fun. We throw dance parties all the time virtual dance parties 80s Dance parties. I mean, we want to feel that pleasure and that joy in our lives and we want to share it with others. And so along with rest, that's kind of one of our core principles or beliefs, if we're gonna get kind of corporate there, you know that it's like, we like taking deep breaths, dancing together, laying down and, and really supporting each other as much as we can. And like Carmela said, showing up. But what's interesting is that when we offer resting or dancing, or move, you know, mothers and we're generalizing here, but tend to run away a little bit. Whereas we're like, we're going to do a really intense intellectual, like, professors from the University of Jerusalem are coming to talk about the taboos of motherhood, like everyone shows up. So again, I don't know if it's something to do with our educational system that values research and, and you know, have lots of slides and lots of proof over just easy, playful, joyful, fun dancing, without a mental conclusion at the end. So that's an interesting, and arrest Oh, my goodness, mothers are like, not using my time efficiently, there's no chance you're wasting in my dream, I sail across the sea. destination unknown. Adventure beckons me. Color and before we move on to the next topic, is there anything you wanted to add to the mom guilt soup mix that we've got going on? You know, it's something we've we've, we've talked about internally so much, but yeah, I think through this process of working with these amazing woman is how I've really overcome Hmong girl. And I think, you know, they kind of let talks about, like, what we've been brought up to believe and stuff. And I definitely for the longest time, and I've talked about this internally, like, had my self worth tied up with productivity, and whether that's productivity through work, or whether that's how much I'm giving something children. And, you know, I'm on this constant hamster wheel, whether it's with Yeah, with all parts of my life. But yeah, like coming together, and like exploring these topics with these woman, and, you know, through the other things that we run with other amazing woman and stuff I've really come to learn, you know, like, it's not doing anyone justice, when I feel guilty about these things. Least of all my kids, you know, and especially like, I have two young girls, and it's something I don't want to model. Like, I want them to go out there. And, you know, like, do what they want to do and do it unapologetically. So how can I expect them to do that? If I'm not doing that? Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? And I think it's it I think if we're gonna change the world, we've we've got to be able to model it for the next generation so they can continue it on. I think that's so important. Is it Yeah, residue, just stop here. Do you want to say that we have relapses we have? Oh, yes. All into mom guilt. On a daily basis, were like, Oh, my goodness, I missed this moment. Because I was doing that and, and just letting letting go of them. I do think just that introspection of like, Oh, I think I did. I overdid it, I gave to too many people at once. So we really encourage mothers to take solid, you know, solo retreats and just a little pockets of recharging, re re re evaluating the you know, adding creativity and what an arrest and play and things that recharges Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not not dwelling on it as well. Like I think I've got better you know, when you have the relapse that you don't beat yourself up about it, you know, like, Yeah, I think yeah, we're all work in progress. Yeah, absolutely. I had a I had a therapist I started seeing this year and I, you know, finally blocked at the time and she would do telehealth, I have three really young kids and so I'm like, okay, you know, I cut this one hour right and but that hour leading up to it be so stressful because you kind of do all the things and get them so set up and you know, when I'd arrived there and be exhausted and then our be up and I'd be like Okay, I gotta jump back into it. And she said to me, she's like, whether you can schedule five extra minutes or 30 extra minutes or an hour and what it all what do you do, all you do is lay there or you score your even whatever it is. He's got to give yourself that room that pause to integrate. And it was so simple, but I literally hadn't considered that you know, it's just how much can I squeezing. And now when I look at my schedule, and I'm probably the biggest offender with relapsing in a lot of ways, but I look at how can I give that little bit of space? Or if there's a lot that I can give, that's even better, because we have to be able to integrate, otherwise, we just holding on to so much all the time. It's no release, until we explode, our body breaks down. Yep, that's so true. That's difficult physical boundaries. I remember a mom was just like, had the kids at the same age and we were meeting and hers. She had like this peaceful salt lamp and like, she was just in her place. And my kids were hanging on asking for food. And I was like, why? Like, they're the same age. Like, it's not like, why do you mind need more than yours. And she's just like, they know that this is my space. And I was like, Oh, I got the salt lamp. And it has my dream, I speed through an open space. I howl as the wind whips my face. All right, so another big topic I love to talk about with my guests is identity. So the way that the concept of your own identity changed when you became a mother? Would anyone like to start us off on that? I'll dive in. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'll just dive in. I don't know, I want to come back to like what Camilla said in the beginning of quoting Tasha about this beautiful transformation. I think, you know, like, for me, becoming a mum, like, during the whole pregnancy process, I was so consumed with what was happening inside me that I hadn't really thought ahead to what would happen when the baby came out. And I think, you know, like, I, I really had in my head that, like, when I had this child, like, that was not that it was it for me, but I would give it everything, you know, like, I just really had that in my mind that I had to give up. It was definitely that kind of mentality. And then I think like, within a week, I'm like, Oh, I don't want to give myself up. You know, like, I'm like, I'm exhausted and everything, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, that's not the version of motherhood, that like I want to have, and then connecting with these amazing woman, you know, and like, just finding people with similar. Yeah, you know, we just, we think similarly about motherhood, you know, that it's not this martyrdom, it's, you know, they that you still want to be your own person, you know, you're not, you're expanding as a person. You're not giving up, you know, and I think it was the hugest transformation, and I don't think I would be, I think it was a good transformation for for one, you know, like, what we're doing is all about mothers and I wouldn't we wouldn't be doing any of this if we weren't mothers ourselves. Because we've gone through the whole process. But yeah, it's, uh, oh, come on. I will add, and I don't know if anyone who had more than one felt the same way. I felt like from zero to one was a massive like, whoa, tidal wave. How will my I mean, I think suffering postpartum anxiety for sure. And then the second one, didn't feel it that much. It was like, oh, no, I can I can be a human too. And I remember when I had my first one, a friend that I used to work with. She was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I'm drowning in motherhood, in the early days of motherhood. And she's like, I knew it. Like you're one of those brilliant people who like has given up everything for motherhood and like, we need you. We need you to leave. You know, she had just read Sheryl Sandberg like lean in I was like, I Ali Wong, and I was like, I don't need to lean in, I need to lay the fuck down. I'm tired. And I remember being like, I felt like I was letting her down. But I was like, there's no other thing that could be doing right now than what I'm doing and wallowing in it. Whereas for when my daughter was born, it was a very different energy. It was definitely more and I think that's probably what women have when they have multiple choices like the first one you're like, oh, and then it gets a little bit easier, but maybe not. I think I've had mom I've heard of moms who have the third child was like they it took it took them down. Tasha or Anjali, would you like to add anything to that? What can I say? I always like to tell this story. So when my daughter was about my first child was six weeks old and I motherhood and postpartum just hit me like a tidal wave. I mean, the only way I can describe the level of anxiety is I constantly felt like I was in the middle of this ocean with storm When the waves all around me just treading water and just trying to hold up my baby and keep her from drowning, it was It surprised me, because I always assumed that everything would feel so natural. And that I would, yeah, that was really kind of where my unfolding would have been there with this title of motherhood. And, you know, it was more complex than that. And I think that was my real first sort of understanding of how we can all contain multitudes that it can be the most wonderful, beautiful thing and also, it can be so incredibly painful at the same time, and is that once I could kind of allow for that, I feel like that I might, I've been able to expand so much more and allow for so many more things to be true at the same time, but it's lucky with my husband just so anxious, so exhausted all the things like you're saying Carmela with that particular that transition to being a mom. And I'm like, Oh, I just feel like I'm failing. I feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is not the right thing. I'm so worried about this. And he just looks at me and he goes, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, What the fuck do you mean? Like, this is literally the only thing that matters, like everything and I do in life is all not you like gonna be measured. It's like how well I I'm performed motherhood, basically. And he went on to say he's like, it doesn't matter. Because you're the mother, she has let go of this idea of being a good mother or a bad mother. Those are just constructs, no matter what, your her mother. So that's all you can do is just be that. And I was still quite pissed off at the moment, like feeling really misunderstood. But those were some of the like, wisest words that really took a bit to seep in, but became that place not only in motherhood, did I start to let go of this idea that I needed to perform something so well, that I could really just be me and get really curious about who I was never given any given moment. And just kind of yeah, a lot allow myself to come out a little bit more in ways that before becoming a mom, I don't think I even really had the awareness of how much I think I was holding back and meeting others validation. Hmm, it's very good. Tasha, I love it. I love when you talk about containing multitudes. Because I think it's something that we often think it's either A or B, right? And it's like, no, it's a and b, c, and d, so many. For me, my creative energy comes from dance. So I've always been a dancer, there's a running joke in my family that I can dance before I could walk. And I've always loved choreographing dances in my head, and I like to perform them because I don't have to worry about controlling other people in their tempo and anything. And for me, motherhood kind of felt like stepping into a dance in partnership with my child. And I was very lucky in the early phases of motherhood to have my husband who's had children before. And so he came with this very calm, reassuring energy. And I just remember feeling like I had no expectations about how anything was going to be or how anything was going to go or what it could look like, it could look like what it should look like. And it was the most freeing thing because it allowed me to really just step into that role with like, my whole heart, and really enjoy it. And then in the last couple of years, there's been a shift if this kind of sense of like, oh, there's this independence. And there's this growth for both of us. And now it's starting to feel like I can dance on my own again, a little bit more. And so that's been really nice is finding that rhythm in our lives, where it's like, I was there when I felt like I needed to be the most. And now I can look beyond that, and get excited about what the future holds. But being a mother now is so massively a part of my identity because of the work we do together. Yet. We never ever talk about parenting, our kids come up, but it's really about us and introspection and kind of what that looks like in this chapter of our lives. So there's been an evolution and for me, it didn't come with a sense of struggling against that. It came with kind of just saying, Okay, it's like it's a dance. And I think when you try to give it a little bit more ease a little bit more grace, and you don't try to control things as much. In my experience, that's kind of been that sweet spot and feeling like, oh, okay, there's a time for everything. There is not this sense of needing to know all the answers, which has been really, really nice, especially in the last little while, we've all dealt with a lot of uncertainty. So kind of not having to know everything right now. But knowing that we are there to get there, like we show up together, Tasha has this really beautiful phrase where she talks about companion plants? Tasha, could you elaborate on that, because I feel like that's what I'm trying to say. But you say much more eloquently. I have to give credit where credit is due, I was, like, just introduced, I've never gardened until I moved to an island where there's just people garden like crazy here. So I've been learning a lot. And there's a mother here in particular, I'm going to shout her out. Her name is Rachel Phillips. And if you live on Whidbey Island, you know her, she's just sunshine mother of three young boys. And she talked about the idea of companion plants, how there are certain plants that grow better next to each other. And so that's something that we together really talk about, and think about and really find to be true. And think of each other as our companion plants that when we're together, we just we get more of the nutrients we need. We exchange ideas, we exchange energy, and we just watch each other bloom, it's and it's incredible. I love that, I completely relate to that, because I my parents used to have a plant nursery, so I know all about companion planting and how, you know, you might put something next to something else, because that plant attracts the bugs away from this other one or, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's interesting hearing all your different views and the way you speak about things. And the same, this is the same for all mothers is it some people will find things really easy. And some other people, I guess, because of their the way they've been brought up or the way they've been parented find things really challenging. So being able to, you know, when Angela, you were talking about, you know, allowing things to happen and not control things I can see that would be very hard for someone like me, who likes to know what's happening next, and what's coming up next. So it's like you can bounce off each other and support each other. Yeah, that that analogy of the companion funding is really awesome. Love it. And it takes some of like, the pressure off to write, like, it all goes down boils down to like, I just kind of have to show up and do my thing. Like, you know, a plant isn't like, think about like, how am I going to do like, it just it just happens and and we we think about nature quite a bit when we're sort of, you know, exploring a lot of these ideas and concepts and just like how can we live life in a way that is generative, regenerative, you know, so that we can utilize our energies in the best ways and look to nature, you know, things go fallow, and they need to go fallow takes rest when it needs to blooms when it needs to. And there's just so much wisdom there to be drawn upon. And it's a huge source of inspiration. But it's hard to shift and do that by yourself. Right? It really, really helps to have other people who are not only walking the past, but who who who inspire you and remind you, you know that Tasha has coined a brilliant term per mama culture. Great work credit. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Play on the permaculture, that's brilliant. In my drain, I take a journey within. I meditate in a forest and a cheeky monkey swings in. So just like you guys to talk a bit more about, like, you've talked about things that you've done together the different sort of events, I suppose. That's the right word things that the group does. If there's someone out there that's listening, who thinks I need to know more about this? Can you share a bit more about the logistics, I suppose? Like, where do they go? What's the sort of things they're going to expect that kind of stuff? Everyone's looking at you. Oh, okay. All right, then. I'm like, I'm looking at everyone. Um, Okay, then there's many different ways and I think we're, if you want in a couple of hours, we're announcing the mommies, which is the Grammys for moms. So there's tons of free events that we'd like to just for moms who, who, sometimes it feels like too much like let's introspect, let's write, let's find out about ourselves. It's like, verily, just so we do things that feel a little bit easier to access. You. We have next is a monthly mother, the mother monthly, where you just get a taste of community, we're currently revamping current Do you want to say a little bit more about mother to Mother monthly? Because she, it was her I had, I had a feeling it put me on the spot with that. Yeah, I think mother, the mother monthly, we've just done one full year, and we're going to take a month break. And we're relaunching. And in the spirit, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do with mother, the mother monthly is build community. And so in this next iteration we're bringing more mothers on. And it's also the aspect of flying in a flock. So we can share the load a little bit more easier. Because we want to do other things as well. We're gonna have more mums. But with a previous version of mother, the mother monthly, we just kind of, I guess our tagline was like, we wanted to introduce mums who were doing cool shit. So each month we had a theme. And then we would bring on different mums. And they would talk about the topic and we would have like a movement session, then we would have more of the chance to talk it through. And then we would also have an open conversation, which was one of the most popular, I think sessions because it was just our chance to chat about things. And kind of going back to Tasha, how she was talking about nature and incorporating nature, like we followed the seasons in the northern hemisphere, so we kind of like have been wintering and resting and that and now we're kind of coming into spring again. But yeah, and also like our internal seasons was a big thing that we want to follow with mother, the mother monthly. So with the menstrual cycle in that so we're bringing all that kind of into it. I don't know if I really should talk too much about the next version of other than other months, because we're kind of finalizing a few of the details. Well, we there's a lot of virtual offerings, but we are also pivot towards, in we haven't actually met all together in 30 years of working together. So we're pivoting towards doing retreats, which we we did before. And now that COVID is opened up we have one coming up in Sweden, the summer, there'll be whipped be there's there's many things in the pipeline, but we really know how valuable and we get, you know, we give each other permission by showing up in person with each other to work on the things that are important. And reprioritize and get support. So that's that's the plan. Hope we get to listen. Yeah, I think the easiest thing is probably just to go to our website, and to subscribe to the newsletter as well. And our Instagram feed is the most up to date. And yeah, the brilliant Tasha and Anjali run that that social media side of things, and they're they're better at keeping things up to date than maybe we are on our website. And then, of course, as we've mentioned before, too, we also just published our book mother wild a book of mother's dreams, that we've worked in collaboration with nine incredible illustrators from all over the world. And we kind of like, gave him some words gave him carte blanche, like, like interpret this how you want and they came back with stuff beyond our wildest dreams. And we're really proud and excited. And we've come up Carmela who introduced a project initially and she said, You know, there's so many big heavy books which have which have of course incredible value as well. But we wanted to make something that was light and distilled in something that mothers could could read with their children. So we say it's a it's a bedtime book, designed to awaken mom was wild dreamer with ANSYS got that dual purpose there. And we're really excited. And it's been really fun to hearing back from people as it kind of opens the conversation because a lot of times it's hard to remember like, oh, yeah, what is my dream? You know, what? What would I like to do? What you know, if, if there were no limits and work from there, and yeah, it's really beautiful to watch that unfold and other women. Yeah, it's, it almost sounds like we're talking about the guilt before it almost sounds like a, like a selfish pursuit. It's like you're a mum now. You've got to do this stuff. There's no time to stop and think about what you want. What's the bigger picture for you? And it's just I think it's is a really clever idea that you can read this book with your child. They go to bed and then it's your time and you've already switched on. You know, this thinking, oh, yeah, that's right. I really wanted to do this or I really wanted to do that. So it's, it's like, right Oh, off you go. Like now it's your turn sort of thing. So it's really, really clever. I really love like, I'm so grateful that I've got my copy, like, thank you so much. Thank you, I just, it's on one hand, I don't and I don't want this to sound rude anyway, but it's, it's such a simple idea, right? It's a book the theory to children, but the outcome of it and what's contained in it is so immense and so limitless. It's just like Bravo ladies, it is amazing. That means that that means everything because you know, it's it's fun to do these projects, and it's fun to connect. But really at the heart of it what we want is just that little bit of space to open up inside a mother right like this is the most exciting trip will ever take is is internally getting to know ourselves, right? All of that other stuff is really just to facilitate that deep dive is Allison, can we ask you put you on the spot a bit? Like what's your dream? A dream? Maybe? Yeah, I would have to say the one the one where the the mums on stage. That is That is me when I saw that. I was like, Oh, that takes me back to when I was a kid and I used to pretend to be Madonna. And I Yes. We have Madonna fans in the group. There's a lot of enthusiasm here. Yeah. So this is my like I was born in 78. So I might be you know, a little bit older than you ladies. I'm not sure. But I used to have the old hairspray Ken and I used to pretend I was on stage and then I used to pretend I was getting an award so I'd have my my speech for collecting my Grammy or whatever. I don't think I knew about the Grammys then when I was a kid but no, that was my thing. So yeah, that's me on say doing my thing. Oh, I love it. Brilliant. Well, you're an incredible singer. I got to hear a little bit of your stuff before you're amazing. I'm glad we did. That was going to be the cut off dream we were we were on the fence on keeping it or not. So we were really lucky that you resonate. And you are invited to the to the mommies in a couple of hours you you can get your Madonna Grammy award award your mana? Madonna Madonna. Yeah. In my dream, I stand on stage. The band's lifts me up as I sing out my rage. Are you ready? Current said, because, you know, at some point, you go down this like rabbit hole of like, what makes a successful book? And do we want to go into the children's category? And then we do should we pitch it and then you know, then you go down. They're like, oh, we need this many followers. And we need to have this impact. And we need to sell this many copies. And we need to do all this promotion where like, Does this feel right to us? And we're like, no backtrack back. And Karen said a sentence she's like, we can measure our impact by how I can't remember the exact words you use car and maybe you remember better. But it was something like we can we can measure our success by the impact of like that space that mothers open up within and it can be just one mother it can be it doesn't have to be numbers. As long as we've connected with a handful of others along the way, I think that we will feel successful, quote unquote. Yeah, Karen, did you Karen sorry. Did you want to add to that, too? And I just Yeah, I guess just reiterating that. Like, I think that's a big drive. And you know, like, we yeah, we've kind of learned and I think especially through mother, the mother monthly that it feels more organic and it feels authentic. And it feels better for us when we actually have connection. And it's you know, we don't we're not so concerned about the big reach, we want it to just be meaningful. Like that. That's the bigger driver. And yeah, and I think that was really nice. Like we through this whole process. We kept coming back together and just reevaluating, and Angelique kind of briefly mentioned their core principles like you know, and one of the core principles there was the dancing the laying down and that but was keeping shit simple. And so each time we kind of get when into that masculine energy, where we really started to think about, you know, those key markers that we should hit and what we should do and how we need to get, you know, all this done. We were like, Nah, that doesn't feel good. You know, like, and it's a passion. You know, this is a big passion for all of us. And we don't want to do it, if it doesn't feel good, even though sometimes it's hard. You know, like, at the end of the day, like it brings us all joy. And yeah, we've got to do it in a way that's authentic to us. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, there's a difference. When you say it's hard. There's a difference between hard work and you know, having to get something done, then actually going against what you genuinely believe, and makes you feel uncomfortable when you start seeping into that. areas that you might think like you said, it's just doesn't feel right for us. So yeah, you've honored that which is really commendable. There's something that I've, it's really interesting, when I talk to moms, I get things tend to go in cycles. So the last thing for interviews I've had, have all talked about this concept of value, and what how society places value on things. And this monetary idea that especially with creatives, you're not creating things to go out and kill a lot of, you know, some are making their business and their livelihood to sell them. You're creating because it's something that is meaningful for you. And you're sharing, again, that connection with people. And I think what we've sort of got to what we've come to the conclusion and feel free to share your thoughts on this, that this, I guess the patriarchal world values, you know, money, if you can earn money from something, there's a higher value on that than if you can't. Everyone was nodding then so I'm really keen to hear what he's got to say. wants to jump in? Everyone's go cool. No, it's really interesting, because I'm not gonna say anything about this topic. Particularly, I'm gonna let someone else dive in. But you should see us on a call. So we're like, talking over each other. We're also excited. And it's, it's kind of interesting to watch us all be polite, and wait for the other person to go first. But I see Carmela is unmuted. So I will let her lead the way on from from a zoom out perspective, we run this Whatsapp group that's called the glow mama village. And one of the girls shared this talk that's happening, and it's all about these really smart people. Harvard educated and, and not and, and celebrities and non celebrities, but who are talking about how can we leverage compassion, humility, and connectedness in our cultures? Rather, I think we're all shifting away from the what's the word I'm you, corporation, there's a word, someone helped me out, I'm having a complete brand capitalism, capitalism. Thank you, please. But we're still we're still we're still in it. And so it does break my heart a little bit to be completely transparent. When I see moms put a lot of effort and a lot of their time and you know, at the cost of not being with their children or doing a job that would give them a high salary, when it's not financially rewarded. Because then they don't value the work. And then they'll take on jobs that might not be as fulfilling, but that will pay the bills. And so to me, there's this like, fine balance of like, how can it? How can we value what we do and put up because No, but yeah, it was interesting, when we started putting a price tag to what we were doing, people would value what we were doing more to so it's a learning experience. And I would love to do it for free for the rest of my life, if I could, but it doesn't serve anyone doing that. And so there's there's this fine line of how can we make it sustainable? And we have to feed ourselves to from it and value of what we're doing. And yet, yeah, not only not not letting that monetary value be our only sense of value. Does anyone else have something else. I also wanted to add that Tasha discovered and shared this great website, which is called bill the patriarchy.com. And it's really, really an interesting way of looking at all the things that mothers and caregivers do. And what that would be worth if you chose the hourly wage that corresponds with what you believe you should be paid for. And I will say when we started our Kickstarter campaign, we had a millionaire by the way on Julian, if I remember correctly, right. Oh, yeah. In two years, I think I made a million if I didn't have to pay taxes, so before taxes, so I know it's interesting, right? We talk about the invisible load and all the emotional labor that goes into raising our child During and I think because a lot of us do it with love. It doesn't also mean that our time isn't valuable. So that's also one of our, our things that we looked at when we were doing our Kickstarter campaign, it was really exciting to see all the support flood behind us. And for us, it wasn't necessarily, even though the Kickstarter was fundraising, it also showed us the greater interest in the project we were doing, which meant we had traction and what we were pouring our hearts into, was something that people were excited about and interested in. So I think that was probably the better payoff. At the end of the day, wasn't the financial it was the sense of like, yeah, you're on the right path. And, and there's people out there who believe in what you're doing. So we felt pretty grateful and pretty energized after that. Absolutely. Hugely validating you know, you've got that, that collective energy behind you of people mums want this, they need this, you know, I think, for me, like and that just remind me about the Kickstarter campaign, like I still and I know you ladies do to the Kickstarter video, like, it makes me cry, and the amount of people who like watched it, and well, you know, like, teared up over it, it really had, like, it hit a nerve for a lot of people. I feel like I need to go watch it. Now. I really wish I had found you guys back then. Because I would love to have contributed to it, too. It's like, and I'm so glad you found me too. Yeah, but this is like this is yeah, it has how incredible that we found each other, you know, like these, these little zeros see, to be like, Okay, I'm going to take a leap, and I'm going to start a podcast, and I'm going to kind of put myself out there. And I'm sure along the way, you've just listened to, like incredible women that you've met along the way. And you know, you can't always measure exactly the impact, right? But there's this sort of trust, knowing that if I show if you show up with integrity, and and from a place of like i Yes, it's it's incredible to build and to grow and to be validated, you know, in that sense, but really, at the end of the day, like you're having these conversations that have this rippling effect where you don't exactly know where it's going to end up. Yeah, but you also kind of like, you have to release that too, right? I think Elizabeth, is it Elizabeth Gilbert for one of one of the ones that we refer to a lot, just kind of, maybe not even her but like talks about this idea of like, you pour all of this energy into creating into making something great, but then it's kind of like birth to you know, we might have this idea before we have children that like we're gonna mold and educate and make these people but really, they, they are who they are, right, it's our job then to just kind of help support their unfolding. And I feel like with creative projects, which again, can be so many looks so many ways, right? I feel like every, every mother is creative, like it's just, it's there every Yeah. But um, it's kind of like, you have to release the attachment, you know, or I'll see we'll just eat ourselves alive. And again, same in motherhood, if I am so attached to the outcome of how what my child is going to do, I will drive myself crazy. And that doesn't belong to me. And I think there's, it can be really helpful to have people in community who can remind you that because it's quite vulnerable, right? Like we want to be accepted. I want things to have in the intended impact. We want things you know, to be well received, and it's natural to want to feel validated. But But that can't be the only currency there. Right. Is other people's validation? Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I also name and it's really nice to have the support within this group. Because I think if we were each going at a project alone, we'd probably be wandering and having doubts from time to time, like, are we going about this the right way, like you're trying your best to chart your own course. But sometimes if you don't fit in the mold that's been said, it can feel a little bit unstable. And I noticed one of your questions you had about the podcast was about support. And I think that that's been one of the best things is we all feel like we can go farther together. Because we were kind of creating this new paradigm together. We all agree on it and we're not afraid to try it out. And kind of recognize like Really what is our intention? Each step along the way, whether we're hosting a virtual retreat or whether we're launching our book? What what did these goals actually mean to us? What do we want to see come out of this and the community that we've built so far, I would venture to say, to me feels like our greatest achievement. You know, and that's not something you hear all the time. Usually, it's measured in other ways. But I think for us, genuinely, we feel like that's been one of the greatest thing. That's things that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Angelina, it makes me think to, you know, the idea of like, a rising tide lifts all boats. And like, yeah, the most valuable thing will be, you know, not the money that somebody might have spent to, to join our monthly community for the month. But maybe six months down the line, we're seeing all of these mothers like, like not only starting to write this incredible stuff, but share it. And that's only going to impact people in their sphere in their sphere, that there's really like this incredible expression that's coming out in different ways. And also, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Like, we can be proud and excited that we're able to sustain a business that's able to, you know, receive, like, financial compensation for the hours we put in. And also hold that the most valuable thing to us is watching mother's shine, like both are both are true. And we like want it also, I think, for me is made me really value and actively seek out ways that I can support other mothers and that that pursuit as well. Yeah, when we talk about community, I write lots of notes when I've speak to my guests. And I've written intense support, and I've put it in a big circle. And that's that is the vibe that I'm getting from you ladies today. It's is that incredible support for each other, which is just awesome to see. And awesome to be in a little group with today. It's just so uplifting. Happy to be your first group interview, by the way. You've done an amazing job in my dream, I go for a deep dive. The magic of the ocean makes me feel alive but I think that's what we feel like with all the things we do as well like with mother the mother monthly, especially like because we brought we brought on other speakers in the last one year and I'm like, wow, like, they we had to meet the most amazing people we learn so much. You know, we build this community. But yeah, I yeah, I think and we all like it's a ripple. For me, it's a ripple effect. Like I feel like the core principle of really begging the shit out of each other and like absolutely adoring each other, like, just makes me want to go do that everywhere in the world. You know, like, it just kind of ripples all out. And you know, like, especially, and our focus, of course is moms but it's everyone but you know, like I really feel like that when I meet a new mom. I'm like, oh, okay, like, how can I how can I help like what can I do and it's gets me excited. But I did want to give it just a shout out that Carmela really is the the glitter we refer to her as the glitter glue that brings us all together. And just to kind of come back to that again that like none of this would have happened and I can see your grown without you guys, it would just have remained an idea that I wanted to thank you because this is officially the first podcast I'm doing. We were all on it. We had our first friend do your podcast and my battery ran out and I basically took 30 minutes to come back on and I missed the whole thing. So this is officially my first podcast. Thank you for hosting us. delightful conversation. I do have to head and help my kids with breakfast and getting them to the bus but um, thank you for having us and absolute pleasure. And you're invited to the mommy's Awesome. Thank you. We're excited Can I just ask? I watched this amazing movie yesterday. I want to know Is anyone else seen the movie called The lost daughter on Netflix exec came up on our global mama village. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It's It's, yeah. It's like this. It's like you're taught it's, I don't know, it's like, all of a sudden, it's like this massive taboo subject has just got a huge audience. And it's amazing. Like, when when the girl, the one that shouldn't give things away the one with the big hat. I can't remember a name now. Yeah, she said to the lake later, is it later, I couldn't remember her name was later or later. But when she said to her, how did you feel when you're away from your children? I actually said, we spoke amazing, because I knew she was just and then when she said whatever she said was fantastic. Whatever I thought I was, it's just groundbreaking, isn't it to have something like that set out in public? It's like, Ah, I was just blown away by it. I just hope that it gets so much publicity and traction, and so many people say it, I just think it's amazing. So amazing. I think it's, you know, yeah, I think it's great, because it's it shone the light on that. And but you know, of course, there are such mixed reviews, if you've kind of gone down that rabbit hole of reading what people say about it. But it's we did taboo as a topic, and other than other monthly and it was the most popular month, like people want to talk about these topics. Yeah. What do you think that says about? Society? It's just, they're not ready for stuff yet that, you know, a portion of us are ready to talk about things and other people are catching up? Or is it a divide in an unknown generations? What do you reckon? I think that we've for so long, stripped mothers of their humanity, right, and the way that they're portrayed, and also what we expect, like love is supposed to have a child is supposed to then compensate for all of these other things. And we we live in, in societies where mothers are grossly under supported and, and every sense and the demands are massive. And yeah, there's the there's no space, in a lot of instances for mothers to really feel the whole breadth of their humanity. So I think that makes people largely uncomfortable, because you have to, like, reconcile that fact that women are mothers or are humans, again, to bring up Elizabeth Gilbert, and she's not a mother herself. Maybe I'll look for this. But she wrote this Instagram or Facebook posts a couple years ago called Mercy on the mothers. And it's absolutely beautiful. And it's a, you know, a paragraph or so. And she's just basically saying, what could happen if just for one moment, we could just give mothers grace, like maybe, you know, maybe they had mental health issues, maybe they were really tired. Maybe they battled addiction, maybe they just needed time for their selves, and on and on and on. But what if just for a moment, we suspend a judgment, and we just kind of allowed for them to be human. And it was so deeply moving. And validating not only as a mother myself, but I think also for me to look at my own relation with my mom and generations and generations and generations and really sort of feel the gravity of what happens when we took this whole, essential, valuable, you know, swath of society and, and actually looked at them as real people. It's incredibly moving. It is it's so profound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look for it really quickly, because I think it's Yeah, go for it. And isn't that amazing, though, for not a non mother to say that like, that's like, yeah, she's got an incredible insight, obviously You know, life somewhere. That's, that's what's going on. She was also, you know, and I feel like it was an maybe an a big magic book, I can't remember which one, but she talks about how her parents went off and did their own thing. And that kind of, you know, like, her parents were busy leading their own lives. And she didn't look at that as something as a negative, but I think it's an inspiration for her, you know, pursuing what she wanted to pursue? Yeah, that's pretty powerful, isn't it? Yeah, I can't help but feel so moved by the idea that mother's living out their own lives is a healing of what we've been taught for so long, which is that you should be a martyr. And that the unsaid words are, your needs don't matter as much as your child or spouses or society's opinion of you. And so, to me, when we bring up this topic of mother's dreams, it just feels like there's something really special there that we want to hold space for. Yeah, it feels like a healing for me. Yeah, yeah. I love it through that lens. Anjali, that's really true. Because I oftentimes think of, I guess, maybe this is true of every generations, here we are living, right. We're really like the bridge between past and future. And for so many mothers, of course, fewer and fewer opportunities for them, but really fewer resources, and to be able to openly talk about these things at once we can shed light on it, and we can process it right, then we can allow for it. And of course, you know, so much of the work that we do today around this, maybe we won't feel we feel we feel benefit for sure. But really, it's going to be future generations that that, you know, really can move forward from this place. But yeah, but every time I take time for myself, every time I you know, check in with me every time my mother, the mother, really, really look at that. It's it's a healing not only for me, but for all of us. That CDs, and it's that it's that ripple in the pond. And it is, yeah, it flows out. And that's something that a lot, I would say, every mum that I talked to on my podcast, is a question that I asked them is that it isn't important to you to be. And I put this in air quotes more than a mum, because there's nothing wrong with I mean, that statement to me just sounds wrong anyway. I don't even know why I would like that. But that's the gist of it, like more than the parenting role, the mothering role, and everybody says, yes, it's so important that another way that someone described it to me recently was that they were an artist before they had children, and they were an artist, even before they met their partner. And that all of a sudden, when they actually had a child, why was that going to go away? You know? Why? Why is there an expectation that what you've been for your whole life is all of a sudden going to change in the blink of an eye? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I love that, because that's really acknowledging the fact that it's not that, you know, mothers weren't all of these other things weren't more than mothers for generations. And still today, but that they were having to basically cut themselves off of, like parts of themselves off right to suppress them to, to disengage or disconnect from them. And that it was always there. Yeah, that's, you know, what you said, you said something before, that you're expanding as a person, you're not giving something up. And I feel like, that's what has happened for moms for so long. And still does happen. But I think the way that we're talking about it now, you're sort of giving yourself that validation and permission to go, oh, hang on a sec. That's not actually what I want to do. And there's people there to support me in in the way I want to live my life, I suppose. Yeah. So good. Just as a side note, Angelique, just message to say her Internet has crashed. I wondered where she taught. All right. Well, look, I think I'll let you ladies go. Now. We've had a wonderful chat today. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all and share the space this morning. It's been so much fun. It has this is why we love doing this, like energized after this. Yeah. I feel you feel like you could take on the world now. But can you imagine we always share the quote too. I think it was Jana Romer, who we heard this, like a well rested woman is a dangerous woman, right? Because we love but can you think of like, if every mother had some ounce of this every you know, in her day, not every moment is meant to feel like we're all feeling right now. And that's okay. Like we're here to invite all of the challenging difficult parts of life to there is we need those right? And also, if every woman, every mother could could could feel this, like, what you can't help but think, how the world would shift. You know? Let's with that energy, can I before we go, just to read to you because I think it's a beautiful monastery. Only two, but just that quick mercy on the mothers because I just I go back to this all the time. It says Dear ones, recently I was at a conference where the question was asked how many of you are afraid of turning into your mother, nearly everyone in the room stood up. This made my heart ache. My heart ached, not only for, for the people in the room who were all beautiful, creative, imaginative and wonderful human beings. It made my heart hurt for their mothers who will never be stopped, stopped being judged as failures. Because oh my god, we never stopped blaming the mothers do we? How many years? How many dollars? How much energy have we all spent as a culture talking about how mothers have failed us? What I want to say today is can we take a break just for one day, and show some mercy to the mothers? Because being a mother is impossible, and I don't mean that it's difficult, I mean, it is impossible. What we as a culture expect from our mothers is merely that they cannot be human. Mothers are meant to be some combination of Mother Mary, Mother, Teresa, Superwoman, and Gaia. It is merciless standard of perfection, merciless. God help your mother if she had ever fell short. God help your mother if she was exhausted and overwhelmed. God help her if she didn't understand her kids, God help her if she had no gift for raising children. God help her if she had desires and longings. God help her if she was ever terrified, suicidal, hopeless, bored, confused, furious. God help her if life had disappointed her. God help her if she had an addiction or mental illness. God help her if she ever broke down, God help her it couldn't if she couldn't control her rage. God help her because she fucked up. And if she fucked up in any way, she will forever be branded bad mother. And we will never forgive her for this. So this is my question. Can we take a break today from judging the mothers and show them mercy instead? This doesn't mean that what happened to you at the hands of your mother was okay. This doesn't mean that any pain you have is not real. It just means that maybe her pain was real, too. And if you are yourself a mother, and you never stop judging yourself for how you are failing, can you let it go for one day? Just for one day? Can you drop the knife that you're holding to your own throat? Mercy just for one day? Let us find mercy, mercy on you. Mercy on everyone mercy on the mothers? So have that same feeling to that last question. Like me? I'm like caring for right now. Oh, my God, that is so true. And I really don't and, you know, I know we're gonna call me now. But we talk about this construct of good mother bad mother. And of course, we all want to come to this as our best healthiest self. Right? And that is a practice to do and there's ingredients we need to get there. But at the same time, like this idea of a bad mother of failing our children are you know, I don't think mothers any mothers really failing, I think that they some that are more under resourced than others. I think I love I think Glennon Doyle always says, you know, there's no such thing as other people's children. And I don't just take that as a sense of like, having responsibility for the collective well being of kids everywhere, but also that society also has responsibility and benefit from seeing to the well being of my children as well. Right. Like, I don't think mothers have failed I think society's failed mothers. And there's a bit of an internet like a revolution that little ripple when we say like what I have to say no matter what I feel what I need to express what I need to create, because it makes me feel alive. Like that's not nothing, right? That's everything. That's yeah, I'll send it to you. That's my goal. I go back to that all the time. Kissing like yeah, Oh that's so powerful oh man can we do this to me continue all look Thank you I've had such a wonderful time thank you to all the best with it all and and I'll put the links in the show notes where they can find your amazing website we are mother wild and yet all the best with the book as much as I thank you so much. And by the way, Allison like congratulations and thank you for this incredible space that you've cultivated like it's amazing be able to go through you know, your list of apps, I think it was 35 I feel like I can't remember the exact numbers. And I'm just like the cloud every conversation is so rich and and that it has it means so much so to the thank you and for giving us like the space to be able to share and hopefully connect with. With more moms. It's so valuable. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. ​ Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. ​ In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg ​ We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. ​ Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You ​ Connect with the podcast here ​ Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts