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Alison Newman is an Australian singer songwriter and has released her new EP 'Wolf': a musical masterpiece that delves deep into the complexities of postnatal depression. BUY MUSIC ON BANDCAMP “Was great to have Mt Gambier singer-songwriter Alison Newman as support when I played in her town. Her new EP is excellent and the hometown crowd loved her performance.” Ross Wilson - Daddy Cool/Mondo Rock Alison's EP album 'Wolf' is out now .... FIND OUT MORE LISTEN

Mercedes Rodgers US claymaker + potter S2 Ep50 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome to Episode 50. My guest this week is Mercedes Rodgers, a clay maker and potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, USA. Mercedes is a mum of 3 sons. Mercedes studied a Degree in Art History and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay, She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbour who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the river bed. When she finished her degree she moved up to New York with her husband, Mercedes worked in art centre that had an amazing pottery studio where she was able to really delve in deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way of learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In additional to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dying fibres and has taught pottery for many years, as well as owning a gallery, She feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns and her kiln is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves how pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient, you can't rush the kiln or disaster ensues. **Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth + infant loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks + grief** Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her 1st son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical, functional objects and good old mum guilt gets a big mention. Take a look at Mercedes' marionettes Read about Ruth Duckworth 1000 Paper Cranes Mercedes - instagram / shop Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Episode 50. It's really exciting to be still hanging around after all this time, and thank you for sticking with me. My guest this week is Mercedes Rogers. Mercedes is a playmaker and a potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, United States and Mercedes is a mom to three boys. Mercedes studied a degree in art history and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay. She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbor who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the earth. When she finished her degree, she moved up to New York with her husband, she worked in an art center that had an amazing pottery studio, where she was really able to delve deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way, learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In addition to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dyeing fibers and has taught pottery for many years. In addition to owning a gallery, she feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns amongst other things, and Akun is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves her pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient. You can't rush the kiln or disaster in shoes. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth and loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks and grief. Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her first son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical functional objects. And we give good old fashioned mum guilt. A bit of a mention music you'll hear today is from LM J, an Australian New Age ambient music trio featuring myself, my sister Emma, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy welcome to the podcast Mercedes. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about where you are in America. I live in Northwest Florida so the very northern western corner of Florida some people we jokingly call it La lower Alabama. So it's it's the south it's about as much southern as Florida can get not like like culturally is what I'm trying to say but it's really beautiful we I live like five minutes from the beach. It's just like crystal white sands you know the granite that's come down from the Appalachians and crystal clear water and beautiful river so it's really it's kind of like there's a place about an hour and a half down the coast from here that's called the Forgotten Coast. So I think when people think of Florida they have a very like Miami Tampa way over built up kind of vibe and yet here I think maybe because we're so close to Alabama, I don't know. It's just it's pretty like you know, Southern Sorry, sorry. What are you doing in here? Okay, well can you please go take it up with him? Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. I scheduled like this is great. We just lock it it's fine. It's not a problem it's all right. This is like so much this is so much mom life right where you're like yes, our normal routine is blah blah this should fit in perfectly and today he mapped until like five o'clock in the afternoon so of course now he's just like up rampaging my husband you know, I mean, this my husband he works remotely so he just gave it him like lock the door so hopefully we should be so good yeah, Northwest Florida. It's an OK place. I love the I love the environment here. Sometimes the politics in the southern culture is a little much and I miss the arts. I mean, there's not the biggest The Art scenes here, you know, yeah, right. Yeah. I noticed on your Instagram stories that you, you'd like to do a bit of camping and you're not very far from like woodlands and sort of really? It almost looks like you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, it's pretty primitive we there's a very large air force base here that has they call it the Eglin reservation. So it's like, I don't know, 1000s and 1000s of square miles of land that they don't do anything with. And it's been great on the beaches to they have huge swaths of completely undeveloped beaches because of the Air Force. So we can just go out there. Yeah, it's like 15 minute drive from our house and from you know, the relatively small city that we live in to just be in a primitive camping area. And it is, it's wonderful. I love it and being a potter. And my work is so grounded in dirt. Like I just I'm a very much I like being outside being that connection to nature really helps to fuel the work that I do. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's the weather like there at the moment? Oh, it's so nice. It's been like in the high 60s, low 70s. That's about 20 degrees Celsius. So just beautiful weather. Yeah, I always like to gardening and yeah, I always like to ask my guests about whether I have this thing about, you know, other places in the world and what it's like and what the weather's like, I don't know, it's the environment really affects the way that we work too. That's what I thought I lived in upstate New York for a while and I didn't believe it as much then. But the transition from moving back down here, I really noticed the change in my work from the environment and just those influences. Yeah, like like in upstate New York, it gets very cold freezes intense amounts of snow. I mean, in the darkness, it's so much darker for longer and all the leaves fall off the trees and here we never even have a real winter. Right so here you know, it's never really that cold and and so the what I see every day is just it's very different because of the weather and the environment. Yeah, so I just noticed I went from carving like doing this graffito work of you know, barren trees on vessels to much more like fanciful mermaids and sea creatures and things like that. Like it was a big ship. It was no but it was it was big. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome so you mentioned there that you you're a potter, can you tell us about what you do? How you got into it? All that kind of stuff? Yeah. I feel like it just goes all the way back to the beginning. Yeah, so I'm predominantly a functional Potter. I mean, that's the way that I have made a living at this. But I love I love like the line in ceramics that line between functional and fine art. So I feel like that's something I'm always kind of playing with like putting little sculptures on my mugs are drawing or screen printing or making little sculptures that have some functional aspect to them that like maybe it's a sculpture of a mermaid but then she's like a jewel secretly a jewelry box or something like that, you know? Yeah. And so. So, the pottery, it's interesting. I got my degree was in art history. So I wasn't sure you know what I was going to do. I wasn't 100% Sure, like what medium I really thought it was good to go in to study I studied quite a bit of photography. But I was I've always been drawn to clay. Since I was young. I was always one of those kids like in the backyard digging up clay when I was an adolescent I lived near this woman who had was digging clay out of a string bed, made herself a wood fire kiln and then was making these tiles and tiling her kitchen. It was amazing. And I just remember being like as a child just in awe that you could take this dirt and make something so permanent. So I think that really stuck with me. And so then, while I was in college, I worked in an art center that had a pottery studio. And then when I got out of when I finished my degree, my husband moved up to New York to do his PhD studies and there was a amazing art center there and he you know, he was like, oh, you should go, you know, check it out and see. And I started, they had an amazing pottery studio there. And then that's when I really like, just delve in deep. So it wasn't something that I studied in university. But it was one of the things that I, I learned it more like in the old way of Craps, like through apprenticeships, and just like self driven study. Yeah. So again, going back to the old ways of, you know, the traditional ways of doing things, and which sort of ties into, I guess what you're saying before, like, you're drawn to the earth and making things it's like, the traditional pathways, I suppose, sort of ties in. Yeah. And, and I think, I mean, this is also that line between fine art and craft, right? Like, because fine art has this elevation in the history of art of like, you know, it's what's in the galleries, and it's what's possible. But the craftsmanship that's like, underneath that is the key, but you have to have the craft before you can have the fine art. You know. I'm just interested to ask you going down your art history route, I spoke to an art historian, an art historian from Adelaide on this program in season one, talk to Melanie Cooper, and she said, just what you've you've just piqued my interest, and I could be off the track here. But she said a similar thing about how fine art, you know, is the thing in the museums and whatever. And then craft got, like a really bad rap, like the women can do the craft, the arts and crafts sort of thing is that that's sort of where you're coming from. I think that yes, when I was studying art history in school, I definitely, that was one of the big things that I picked up on. And kind of just like the, like, if you if you look through our history, it is predominantly men in all of the art forms that that are the majority of the people that are in the museums that are in the galleries, right. And then the crafts, not in all cultures, but in a lot of them. It is like the women in the those once it's a utilitarian, somehow it loses its worth. And then I just personally thought that, in worst for society, it's almost the other way around, right? Like, we need well designed objects that we use every day, like, like, I always think, like my work is like, just like simple beauty for every day. Right? Like I'm a big coffee and tea drinker. Right? So that like handmade mug full of coffee or tea in the morning, it's just like, there's, there's something like so whole about that functional experience. For me, that's also beautiful. And the work of art. Absolutely, yes, I love that. It's like you can celebrate this experience and take this moment, to appreciate everything that's gone into, you know, the thing you're holding in your hand and the vessel that you're experiencing your drink from, it's like there's this massive connection with, you know, where it's coming from and how it got made. And what's the story behind the person that made it and you know, it's just this huge cultural connection. Yeah. And I think maybe our culture has got so far away from that, I think that that's also one of like, my earlier memories of like, seeing between commercially produced products and handcrafted things. My, my grandmother, I love this story, my my grandfather raised horses, and one of my grandmother's friends, her husband was a potter. And so her friend like horse riding horses, and my grandmother loved pottery, so they got the women got the husbands to trade. And so my grandmother has all these beautiful pots by this potter has been very gifted, actually, when you were talking about the influences, that people who influence me, I think his work had such a profound influence on me as a child because I could remember, you know, being with my grandmother in her kitchen, cleaning the plates and the bowls and putting them in, in you know, in the dishwasher and being very careful with them because we knew the person you know, you can feel the finger marks and like somebody that we know created these objects versus like at home, you know, with like the plastic plates or the you know, slip cast mass produce things like there was just a very different feeling in the weight in the whole act of how we use them. And I think that that just really kind of just a huge impact on my life in general. You know, I love in my home as much as I can having things that are either like, old or hands, you know, handcrafted like my, a lot of our furniture was is from my husband's ancestors were from Germany and they were all Woodworkers. So we have like this civil war and all this old like handmade, you know, like a headboard that his grandfather cut down the tree. Yeah, right. It was a wedding gift, right? In the time we like in order to like, ask the person to marry you like this is how you did it. And we're just well, with Amazon, right? We're in like such a different world now. So I think that part of what I do as an artist is like, remembering that and also trying to share that with people, you know, continue sharing the craft and teaching people and yeah, absolutely going forward. Yeah, I love that. It's so important, isn't it? Because we do we just get caught up in this fast, fast culture. Like we need things right now and everything if it doesn't, you know, if you break something, you just throw it out and get a new one because it costs more to repair something that does to buy new and like this whole consumerism is just out of control, isn't it? Yeah. And you think like, we're a potter. I mean, it takes it's such a slow process. I mean, it takes like weeks and weeks for one mug to go from like that ball of clay to something that you can drink out of, you know, it's very, and if you try to rush it, that's the best part. If you try to rush it, it just explodes in the kiln. I mean, it's one of those things like you just you can't, you can't force it to be fast, because you cannot do it yet. It's like it's forcing you to be slow and take your time and be patient. Have you ever struggled with that patients? Like are you naturally a patient person? Or is that really challenging for you? Oh, no. I mean, that's, I think, part of like, maybe the universe, like made me a product that because I'm not patient. And I come like from a long line of very impatient people. Like it's ridiculous. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm always like, Okay, if I rush this, I mean, yes, it really has helped to be, you know, like, I have to be slow or it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So cool. I love that. It's like, yeah, the universe sent you this. So you could just appreciate you know, I love that. You said before about, you could feel the finger marks in the, the plates and the cups. There's a piece of pottery that my mum brought been back from a holiday once and it's it's a fruit bowl. It's beautiful. And it's hand painted. And, and I picked it up one day and realized I'd put my thumb in the same spot as there was a thumb mark. And I just had this like shiver like, oh, like it was just this amazing moment of like, I'm touching where someone has physically made this and my hand is right where their hand was. It was just incredible. I'm getting shivers now thinking about it was just yeah, that connection. That connection is energizing. Yeah. When Yes, I 100% agree. I love Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I think that also that's part of in a way like what has always drawn me to the arcs when I think about it, like thinking about the people who influenced me. I don't know if you know the sculptor Ruth Duckworth. Have you heard of her? She did a lot of she was a ceramicist. And mostly in porcelain, and made these like very abstract sculptures. And but they so I only saw them in history books. And they were so perfect. Like I just why shiny, beautiful porcelain. And the first time I was in the Museum of Modern craft, I think in Manhattan. And they had a exhibit of her work. And I saw, I got to see some of the larger installation pieces. And as I walked up in the close, there were all these little cracks and imperfections in the pieces. And I might I was just like, it was that same moment of connection of like, here's this person that I've idolized, but also is just a human being who has the same problems in her kilns probably that I have in mind kills, right just like that. That connection of human the human struggle. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? Yeah, it's interesting that that we put, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but we we put people up on a pedestal, it's like, we can't do that. That's unachievable. But then we realized that at the end of the day, they're still human beings. And it's like, we're all going through the same struggles. I think that that's what's great about your podcast, too, right? It's for us artists to realize, like, you know, we create these things from our heart and our soul when we put out in the world to see. But what people see is that finished product, right? They don't see the hours and hours of labor and struggle that goes into it. And I think that especially as moms that's all reminding each other of like, how many days we don't get into the studio to do the work or how many interruptions that we get, but we still somehow you know, collectively figure how to get through it, you know? Yeah, that is so tricky. Talking about your connection to the earth, I had a look on your Instagram, you've played around with making ink from acorns and making charcoal from grape vines. Tell us about that. It's really cool. Yeah, so I think when you know when people ask me, you know, what is your main medium or like, you know, what kind of artists are you? It's always hard for me because I do love to try to try new things. And so, oh, I've done a lot of work in, like fiber work, I worked on a sheep farm for a while. And so I learned some about natural dyeing there. And then that so then recently I was getting interested in sewing and trying to not spend a bunch of money on materials. So I was like buying white sheets from the secondhand stores. And then I was trying to dye them with these organic materials. And then that just like spiral, right, like into the rabbit hole of all these, so then I started looking around where I live, to figure out like, what pigments are naturally available. And the tannins in acorns, I mean, that are everywhere where I live, are very easy to you know, you just have to boil them down and boil them down. And then you're left with a really nice ink that, you know, if you leave it sitting in the sun over time it fades. But like in a sketchbook or a journal. I mean, it really is color fast, and it drives really nicely. So that's wonderful. And then yes, the great fine charcoal, that was just another it was like a recipe, I found a book and it was so easy. I just took a little altoids tin, cut the pieces of vine, put them in the tin and then put the pin in my fireplace. And then after like three hours pulled it out, and I had nice, nice piece of the charcoal. Just love that. It's again, it's just that patience waiting for things to happen. And you know, not rushing. Yeah, like just the playful nature of like, what I think that that's like what I get out of being an artist, right? It's just like that continuous curiosity. And my husband, my husband's background is a chemical engineer. So chemistry, like he's really deep into the chemistry. So it's very interesting. For us like together like, you know, when I go on these these missions to make a coordinate, you know, he's breaking it down on the molecular level and trying to figure out like, you know, the best way to get it to be the richest color. It's It's really wonderful. And exciting way to look. You know, art science and art together. Hmm, that's it, because it Yeah, it's there's so much science. That's thing my kids forget when I talk about let's do some science when we're homeschooling. So let's do some cooking. It's like, that's not science, like Yeah, it is. Because if you get your recipe wrong, it doesn't work. So yeah, that is a really cool connection to have. Yeah, do you and can also talk about your Marionette Bender that that describes my artistic and my bender. So I think that came out of COVID. And being in Northwest Florida were I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you see from the news about what life is like here. But I mean, people really just pretended like COVID wasn't a thing. It was really it was really emotionally, kind of difficult, because I just felt so gaslit a lot of the time. And so like for the first you know, like the first shutdown, things were pretty serious. And, you know, my community and friends like took it pretty seriously. But slowly as the COVID fatigue went on, like people just got less and less, I don't know what the word is, like had less and less self control, or were just more and more tired of, of the, the different waves, you know. And so, again, my husband being a scientist, like he's very much like, we're just going to follow the CDC guidelines, you know, this is how we're going to do it. So that last Omicron wave when pretty much everybody around me was just doing whatever and my little family is back in on nucular thing I was like well, I guess if I can't hang with my friends, I will just make myself some friends and so that's how I started making marionettes and entertaining the kids you know, but they're, they're less entertained by it than I am. I'm really having a lot of fun with it. It has really like it's really like I get I think this is why I love the play in art because that it's really like planted the seed for this very this next step in the sculptural pieces that I'm making that I think you probably saw those on Instagram too that it's like they're almost like I'm imagining them as like altar pieces that you hang on the wall so it's like the human form and that torso area you could put like a candle or a stone or you know leaf or something you know, whatever thing you want to be in there your rings. And then yeah, it will have like the marionette legs and I don't know I'm imagining like some wire pieces I haven't I need to fire a tail load full of stuff. But we it's spring break here right now. So I'm really just in KidZone. So but yeah, that's the marriage and I'm interested to see where it goes. I'm really hoping that that is going to be my next I haven't done any solo shows since the kids have been born. And so I'm hoping when my two year old is going to start in like a preschool next year and so I'm really good Well this year in August, so what I'm really hoping is that I will have a solid body of work I'm imagining those sculptural pieces I'm sure some kind of functional piece will come along and and then some paintings kind of around that that subject, but we'll see right now just a dream. You know, I have to I have lots of big dreams, and then we see what really manifests itself in the end. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I've got to say I'm a bit. I mean, it's one of those things that really freaked me out. I have like a, I don't say it's not a phobia. I just look at them. And I go, Oh, the same with them. You know, those dolls that people have on there when they do ventriloquist dummies. Yeah, freaked me out a lot, too. So when I saw them, I was like, I feel a bit funny, but I'm gonna watch this, because, you know, this is Mercedes work. I'm gonna get into this. But at the same time, I could just feel my skin falling just a little bit. A little bit weird, right? Because you're like making these sculptures and trying to like breathe life into these like inanimate objects. Right? So I think there isn't something like inherently kind of creepy to them. And they have a particular look about them too. Like it's that that traditional? I don't know what the word is. I don't know what I don't know what to describe them as, but they look they have these look about them. It's just me. Don't mind me. All right. I think you're probably not the only one. I'm sure that other people are very. Oh, goodness. But you know how you said about the, like, their, their bellies being like, open. I sort of when I first saw it, it reminded me like of a fireplace of like a, I don't know, that's just where my head went. When I first saw them. I was like, well, that's cool. Anyway, there you go. I can see that. Well, I definitely imagine having candles in some of them. Hmm. So I mean, that's what I love to about like that, you know, like, making functional work or making less representative work is I love like the eye of the beholder, right. I love hearing. Like, when I first when I first started my first real like selling artwork was at a farmers market I then did for like, I think four years straight, where I make my pottery, and then I would take it to the farmers market to sell it. And I always love that interaction with people like hearing what they thought something that I made was where I wouldn't like, you know, like a little tray that I'd imagine it's like a ring holder or a salt dish, you know, and they're like, Oh, my rings would look really beautiful on that, or that would be great. So you know, like they see it as something completely different than that then sparks another idea for me of like, oh, it could be a you know. Yeah, absolutely. And also want to mention that your kiln is solar powered, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big dream that I really never thought would, would happen. But there's been a pretty big push here in Florida. It's so weird. Again, like the politics. We only have Gulf power, which is our power comes from coal, which of course is not good for the environment. And there has been a big push from the solar companies because Florida, there's so much sun, it's a great place to harvest solar. But yeah, we went bankrupt. So we got it at a good time where it was like we could get a decent return for the solar that we produced that we don't use. And it is really exciting to know that I'm not burning coal when I fire my kilns but I am you know, harvesting the energy from the sun and, and using that because it killed I mean, it's amazing. I fire this count the 2300 degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't know what that is. And whoa, Celsius, but it's like it's like volcanic temperatures in there. That's about 1260 degrees Celsius. It's a lot of energy that it takes. Yeah, that's insane. Isn't that the sort of thing? What would something have to be to actually just disintegrate something like, because that's really hard, and your stuffs not disintegrating? Like that's amazing. Well, it depends on where you put in there. I mean, definitely can disintegrate things, but that's like where the chemistry comes in. Right? Because you have to have the right play body to fire you know, that fires at that temperature that ensures at that temperature because essentially what we're doing is we're creating a stone it's called stone layer, because you're putting it through a process that on the molecular level, it becomes a stone stone. That's really fascinating. Yeah, I think that that's what's the hook for me. You know, this idea that you pick a material that's so malleable and soft and just very easily returned. To the earth when you start out with it, and at the end, it's something that's so solid and permanent. I mean, if you think about the things that laugh through the Millennium that we dig up from other cultures often it is shards of pottery. Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You know that we're digging up plastic from from an era anyway, I'm digressing. You briefly mentioned your children there. Tell us a little bit more about your family? Well, my husband, James, we have been together. Oh my gosh, it's 20 years now a lot like our whole adult life. And so we were together for 10 years. And then we started having kids. And so we have three sons and Conrad, he would be 10 years old this year, if he was still with us, and then at Red are middle one is six. And then Arthur, the one who came charging in here earlier is two is quite a little. He is the sweetest little firecracker. They're wonderful. They really just have brought so much joy to my life. Yeah, there was a, again, on Instagram, I'm videoing, again, the Instagram store crews when I'm going to chat to people. So yeah, that was if I keep saying that, but when you're you're painting some mugs, and I'm guessing it's your two year old who's sitting next to you. And he's having a go as well. And it's in fast motion. And you can see, you know, he's painting on his little play, and then suddenly falls down and something happens. And then he paints underneath the plane. It's just such a sweet little thing to watch. It's just so busy doing his painting, it must be so nice to be able to involve them in what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really the only way that I've been figured able to figure out how to continue working, because I do have some help. My mom just lives around the corner, and my husband's dad lives down the street. So that's really nice. But I am I am with them, you know, all the time. So and I struggle, like, you know, I go through these phases where like, Oh, I'm gonna get up before them and work. But then somehow they like, figure out that I'm awake and come in there. You know, it's like, I don't know. So yeah, so that's what I'm always trying to devise a way for them to, like, be part of be part of the process. And you know, also learning along, you know, yeah, absolutely. When they see your work, I guess they're, they're well aware that you're making. You're making things that are going to be used in homes and other people buy them. And it's sort of what I'm getting at is like, it's, it's great that they can see that you're contributing to the world, I suppose, outside of their own home. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, they're very aware. And one of the main places that I sell my artwork is a place called artist Fano here in Fort Walton, that she sells all local art and our six year old, he's actually started making beads and making necklaces, and he has a little line of stuff that he's selling in our store, too. So yeah, I mean, we really do, you know, I really do try to, you know, show them yes, the process and where the things are going. And, you know, like, let's give them their kits. I don't know if you have this experience, but they just don't want to part with anything, my children, they just want to keep everything. So trying to talk to them about like, you know, I'm making this to sell and it's going to go out into the world, and we're not going to keep everything that we make, you know, and then seeing that process, I think is really, really good for them. Hmm, that's true, isn't it? I hadn't thought of that. That's, that's cool. It's just amazing to me to how much I see them learning in the studio, for example, Everett, who's six now I think it was for his fourth birthday, which seems extremely young to me. As someone who has taught pottery throughout the years, I decided to make little sippy cups for all the kids who are coming to the birthday party to like give them as gifts and he was you know, in the studio with me one making them and then I made a bunch of extra ones, you know, just because in pottery, things break or get broken. And then I just decided I was like, you know, I think I'm going to just let him glaze these because these are his gifts to his friends. I took some videos of it I was shocked at how he there's a tool like this clamp tool that I use that you hold the pot with to dip it down into the glaze bucket. And how this four year old who had been in the studio with me for the last four years watching me could just reel that tool. He glazed all the cups. He did not break a single cup. I mean, I had to like still wipe the bottoms down and stuff, but it just it really hit me how much he had been learning and taking in that I didn't even realize he was born. If that makes sense, that's it like the first time he ever did it. He just knew how to do it because he'd watched you do it for so many years. That is awesome, awesome story you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. Want to talk about Conrad a little bit. So you said he would have been 10 at the moment? Can you share with us a little bit about him and how he's affected your work and maybe continues to affect your work? Yes. So well, Conrad, he was our first son and he died when I was 33 weeks pregnant. So that would be turned to stillbirth. So he, I mean, he was our everything. It was one of those things. You know, I don't know, I think a lot of people of our generation go through this where James and I had like, spent a decade like, trying to build our careers and you know how to get our life together and doing air quotes there. And then we're like, okay, like, it's time to have kids. And it was just like that really easy thing where it was like, two months later, we were pregnant. I was, you know, like this just picture of health birth, there was like no signs of any problems. We were just so excited to be bringing him in the world Captain Awesome, is actually what our like nickname for him was before we had a name. And, and then and I at that time, I owned an art gallery and teaching studio. So everybody at the gallery in the studio. I mean, everybody was just so excited about this new life, you know, new life, like everybody's so excited about it. And so I think then, I'm here he was already like a big part of my creative process I was doing these watercolor is when I really started painting and watercolor. And I did this whole kind of, like creative series about a little boy and a bunny rabbit costs known as a little boy and a bunny rabbit, and they just like went on these adventures and these watercolor paintings, and I don't know, I just I kind of maybe this sounds really weird, but I felt like he was like, you know, this little life in me like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how to put it into words. But like, kind of we were co creating these things. And then yes, after he passed away, I mean, it just shattered my whole existence. There was just, it was so incredibly unexpected. I just I don't even know. Like, I it was one of those things where I didn't even really understand stillbirth was a thing. You know what I'm saying? Like living in this western culture. I just assumed like, we were gonna get pregnant, we're gonna have this baby we had. Like I said, everybody was so excited about the baby, I had three baby showers thrown for beer, like celebrations of life type of things. You know, we had like, like, I wasn't wanting to, like, need to set up a nursery or do any of that stuff. But we definitely were in that like nesting, preparing, so excited to be with this little person. And yeah, and then just one morning, I woke up and actually, at night before I went to bed, I had like, massive fetal movement. I remember because my mother lived in California at the time, and I was like, trying to video my belly. So I could like send it to her and be like, Oh, the baby's going wild, you know. And then the next morning, when I woke up, there wasn't much movement. And James who is very, like, conscious of what's going on, he's in like, in the mornings, you know, we would often like lay there and he would have his hands on my stomach and like, feel the baby moving or whatever, and even comment, he was like, oh, maybe it's really still this morning. And I was like, Yeah, Miss I just sleeping or stuff that he was really, I think even said he was like real wild last night. And then as the day progressed, I still like wasn't feeling any movement. And so didn't know I didn't want to like freak, it just didn't seem like it just didn't seem like how could this what is happening, you know, and then then by the afternoon, I just, I was actually watching one of my friends, kids, like they were at a soccer game, and I guess it was like babysitting them or whatever. And I was sitting there. And I had like, you know, they demonstrate to do the kick counts, and you know that I was like, Okay, I'll get up and I'll go watch the kids and I'll like drink a big glass of orange juice, and he'll definitely be moving around by them. And so I'm sitting like, at the soccer field, and I still didn't have the field with it. And it was so strange. It was like, right about the time that I had decided that I was going to have to call the midwife and say like, I feel like something's wrong. I need to have this checked out. James called me and he said, I feel like something's wrong. Are you okay? And I just like broke down. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Like feels really weird. I think I'm gonna go up to the office and have them check things out. And I was you know, because of that like, just Like blissful naivety I think I was like you don't have it's Friday afternoon like, you don't have to worry about coming with me. I'll just go by myself. I'm sure everything's fine. You know, he's like, No way. I'm definitely coming with you come home and pick me up. And we'll go out there. And we drove over there. And yes, she did the sonogram. And like, I don't know, if legally, she couldn't tell me or if she just didn't want to, or whatever was, but she was like, Oh, this machine isn't very good. Let's just go to the hospital. And it's just like, I knew I just knew. But like, what? I don't know. I mean, it's just like, even now like saying it's like, such as just a surreal a shocking experience. It was the day before my birthday, which even sounds like maybe selfish but weird, right? And I just remember being like, This is so weird. I have to go to my birthday party tomorrow, like how was this like that, like, out of body out of mind experience. So we got to the hospital. And they did a sonogram and you know, is just so weirdly an impersonal where they're like, Okay, that's, you know, shutting down a machine is like, there's what the baby's heartbeat supposed to be, there's no heartbeat. And I'm just like, I'm gonna do I don't know, I just like, I was like, I just was like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, got up in the bathroom, and just like laid on the floor and was just didn't know you know what to do. And then it was just a weird deal of like days, where they, I mean, this is why I'm so thankful for medical intervention, right? Because in the past, like, you would just have to wait. And he was a four and a half pound baby, like he was a fully full, I mean, he could have been born and lived, if we would have known whatever had like, we still don't really know for sure what happened to him. So we had to go through all of that. And induction and it took a couple days of like, I they tried to induce me and then didn't work. So I had to go home. And then I had to go back to the hospitals and find like this form. And there's just so much like, I think that like we're learning about this type of grief, because our society has gone so far away from the I mean, it's like, it feels like so unnatural, right for the children to die before the parents and things like that. But so they were they had, um, they have volunteers that will come and take photographs. So they had some A, and at the time, I'm like, I don't want any of this. I remember one nurse coming into the room and being like, she said something I can't remember verbatim, but something about, you know, what a beautifully handsome baby we had. And I just wanted to like screaming her face and be like, Yeah, except for He's not breathing. Yes. You know, he looks like baby doll. But he isn't alive, you know. And so I really thought it they are pretty adamant at least at this hospital that the parents should like see the baby and hold the baby, I guess they have figured out has something to do with you know, the way our brains process the trauma later. And I was really, I was really reluctant like I just I think I was in such deep shock right? I was still very much in the life this is a real you know, if I don't maybe if I don't see it, it will be real. But they did they got me to hold them and it was sweet. My my baby shower that the people from the Art Gallery through for me, they had made me this beautiful quilt that everybody had like drawn pieces like they had drawn on each square, and then somebody who made quilts like sewed it all together. So we had like, wrapped him up in that. And that was what he was cremated in which I think kind of helped me feel a little bit better. Like he was like, you know, like, wrapped in love. And yeah, and then. And then after we came home. I mean, I was just incapacitated, I was absolutely essential. I still don't really know how my gallery just didn't close down. And to be real honest with you. I didn't literally I mean, in retrospect, I realized, like spent the next two years like trying to burn into the ground. Like, I don't know how anybody dealt with me. I mean, I was such a like, post traumatic stress, fight or flight. Like, I just I don't even I don't even I wonder still. I mean, I have really good friends I guess. And that's why they're so my friends. But I was just like, a ball of just like fear and anger and confusion. And I just at one point, I finally realized it was like my life has become, I just want to get through the day so I could get back into my bed. And like not deal with life like that. That was like there's about a two year period. And it deeply affected my art. But at the same time, it was art that brought me through it, it was journaling. I did so much journaling, I would go to this park, which at the time I had dubbed my sadness park and I would just sit and cry and drink coffee and journal and throw watercolor paint on things and I mean, it's nothing that's profound or that I would ever want to really like show other people but for me, that journaling process really like helped me kind of move through the process. And then I think the other thing that was so incredibly difficult for me is I have been teaching art as almost as long as I've been making art in In some facet or another, like I really deeply care about that, like the transfer and passing down of the knowledge and I had such a strong aversion to being around children, I've always like I have a very childlike behavior yummy. You see with my Marionette dolls, like I just, I love hanging out with children, I love their overall just pleasantness and wildness and, and creativity and lack of self doubt. But then all of a sudden, I just, I just didn't I mean, being around children was so incredibly painful for me, I just, I couldn't do it, it was a very, very strange, difficult feeling. And I think it's something like it will never like, he will always be present. And he will always be a part of our family. And it's something that will has changed who I am, and I will always be this different version of myself now because of it. But then we had, you know, eventually we had a happy, you know, turn of events, and Everett was born. And then not really, I mean that. I think him being born as much as like no child can ever replace another child is him being born really was a lot of healing for me. And then I didn't even realize it. But then when Arthur was born, so many years later, I think even more I was able to be present and really like, come to a greater level of peace, where it's not like I don't you know, I don't know if you've ever suffered with PTSD. But it is just, I didn't even understand I had before on my diet. I never really experienced panic attacks or anxiety or anything like that. And so it was just earth shattering for me all of a sudden, to kind of have my mind just working against me all the time. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's a heavy story. That's, but it's like in our life and death. Yeah. And I think like, like we spoke about before we started recording, I think it's, it is so valuable, if people can share their stories for other people to be able to hear it and relate to it. And, you know, maybe, I think I just think the more we talk about things more, we normalize things like the PTSD, like the grief, you know, any sort of mental illness, like, you know, I talked to a lot of moms with postnatal depression, I experienced that myself, anxiety, I think the more we just are able to talk about it, the more it becomes a part of life that is normal, like because it is a normal part of life. But then there's this part of society that makes us go, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't talk about that. We don't want to hear about that. Yeah, you just had a new baby, you should be so happy you should be. You should be having all of these experiences. Why are you not happy? What is wrong with you that you're not celebrating this? You know? And it just really, yeah, it's a horse really takes away from, like, what's really happening with us? And I think I always think of it as like, if I had my leg chopped off, people would treat me in a certain way, right? Like not like, like, like, I would no longer be able bodied. And there are things going on. And I think when people are going through extreme emotional duress and trauma, because it's not a visible thing. I mean, sometimes I wish that I had a shirt that would be like, I've been traumatized. You probably want to give me some space. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, this this thing about it being in your head, you know, is it real? Is it not real? Because people can't see it, you know, all that kind of questioning from from outsiders, instead of just trusting that we like that, that, that we're having a hard time and that it's hard. And that's okay. I think that's the other thing, too, like, I find so much now in my conversations with people like around the holidays and different times, you know, when we're supposed to feel a certain way. And I'm so much of a place is like, I hope you're happy today. And if you're not, that's okay, too. You know, these are even with the kids, you know, my two year old right now is very much into like, you hurt my feelings. I'm angry at you, you know, and then it's like, my, I feel like my mom always wants to kids like not to ever be angry and not in and I'm like, we just need to bail in my opinion. let their emotions be seen and validated. Okay, I hear that you're angry with me? Do you want to talk to me about why you're angry? Or do you want some time to think you know, like, we're all going to be angry, we're going to be sad. We're going to have these negative feelings sometimes. But also, we don't have to say that's what I feel like, for myself. Like, I was in such a horrible, dark, sad, sad place. But I didn't stay thank God. I didn't stay there forever. Right? Like I came. And I think even if I hadn't had children, eventually I would have come out of that place. But grief takes time. And people need to allow others to have the time and not be like when are you going to be better? When are you No? Yeah. Well, when are you going to be how you used to be? Well, I'm never going to be how I used to be a new version new season. No experiences, just let me you know, if you think that I need to be that same person, we probably aren't going to be that person. So now Yeah, that's so true. And there is no time limit because people experience everything so differently. You know, it's just there is no and see that 100 I feel like the, if you're not an I don't want to this is a big generalization now. But if you if you're not an artist, if you're, you know, an academic who's an accountant, or, you know, someone that thinks very rationally and straightforward about things, your PhD in chemical engineering. Yeah, yeah, this expectation that when you do this, this and this, you will get this outcome, and everything has a method that's been done before, and you know, what's going to happen? And it's like, no, all this stuff has its own way of happening in its own time. And there's no right or wrong. And I think that can be really hard for some people to, to get their heads around. Because it's so different to the way that they used to experiencing life. Yeah, they want it to be a formula. Grief isn't, you know, now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I definitely don't wish that experience on anyone. And I still, I mean, every day, I wish that he was here. And I wonder always, you know, what, what would the other boys like? Like, what would Everett's life be like, as a middle child with an older sibling, I have a nephew who is three months older than Conrad would be. And so when and we live close to them, and so whenever I see them all together, I just, it's you know, I'm always in my peripheral kind of imagining him in those moments, you know, and how much it would change the dynamic of our of our lives. With your six year old and your two year old, being a mother has changed the way you approach your work and all your outcomes how you expect these things? Yeah. Is that is that all moms and all career things I can remember I have a really good friend too. She's a painter. And we got we we actually became friends she had to, she had two baby girls that died in utero. And so that kind of like, is like how, like, we became friends with the arts. But then when we realized we had this shared experience it like, you know, was someone to go through that hard time with that was having similar social reactions, if that makes sense. Like, like, when once we did both get pregnant again, neither of us wanted any baby things. Like I did not want any baby things in my home until there was a baby in the home, right? And I remember my mother in law was like, so distraught about this and, and but then I had Anna and she was like, no, she was having the same feelings. I'm like, this isn't irrational, right? But I can remember we got pregnant with our boys who were born three days apart. And we would go to we lived like down the road from each other. So we would go on these morning blocks a lot. And we would spend all this time talking about how when we had our children are living babies, it was not going to change the way that our careers were going. And we were definitely going to make sure that we set aside time and we had all these, you know, I always joke that, like, pregnant moms are the best moms because we're so delusional about what the reality of being a parent is really going to be like, right? We're just so dreamy about what it is. And then going through the experience. She has three boys now living and yeah, I mean, both of us. We talk she lives in Japan right now. And we we tried to Skype, you know, for awhile, it was like every week, but we you know, we tried to talk pretty regularly and we kind of already each other's like, supports system of like, you'll get back in the studio again, soon, you know, where we have a journal that we like, send back and forth to each other to just kind of like, keep it going. Because yes, having kids, it takes so much time and energy, you know, so with the other two boys and especially like over COVID When I was like the old, you know, the main person, I never imagined as a parent, that I would be with my children 24/7 I always imagined that I would have more external babysitters, and family members and people that could be there with the kids too, because I just think it's important for their development. You'll see how other people navigate the world, not just me and my husband. So yeah, it really I mean having the children well, to be honest with you. I closed the Galerie down after Edward was born, he was like, four months old. I can just remember James, I would have, you know, I would go into work and relieve him. James has always worked from home. So like at home with the baby, and then he'd be calling me at work. And I can hear ever like crying in the background, he's like, I can't get him to take this bottle. I don't know what to tell you, I don't bottle feed them, I nursed him, I don't know how to give him a Bob, you know. And I can just remember one point sitting in the gallery and just being like the two people that I love the most in the world or at home suffering. Because I want to do this thing. And maybe I'm a creative person, maybe I can just think of another way to do this, that works better for my family. And so that's when I made the decision that I would get a different house and that I would move the studio into the house and be more focused on the parenting thing for right now. I mean, my first, you know, 12 or 13 years of being an artist were very driven, eating, sleeping, dreaming about our all the time. But I think after Conrad dining, and not getting to experience his life, more than those nine months that I was pregnant with him, I just wanted to I do want to be with my kids as much as I possibly can. And especially in these little years. I mean, it gets exhausting, I'm not trying to glorify it, you know, when you're trying to go to the bathroom, and their fingers are under the door, and you're just like, you're so worn down and exhausted, I definitely have a lot of those moments too. But I just, they're not going to need me this, I already see it right, like the six year old, like he does not need me nearly as much. And there's going to be a time when they don't want to come climb in the bed with me and they don't want to snuggle me and there's gonna change. And so I think that like, I have been willing to put a lot of my studio time on hold, so that I can be with them. And that it's been a pretty conscious decision. I mean, my husband, I kind of go back and forth about it. Like if I'm going to take on a big commission like I do. Some production work for like historic Pensacola like art gallery, gift shops. And a lot of times those will be like a lot, a lot of pieces that all consistently have to be the same, like relatively same size and shape. And that is not something I'm really good at, like that type of precision. And also working on any deadline with kids is really hard. So that's when we kind of like go like now at before ever I take any larger Commission, we kind of look at both of our schedules and say like, is this something that I can realistically do? And we we definitely try to value a time over money. Like we're in a comfortable position where like, you know, our our we have a decent house, we couldn't get enough food. And so we would prefer to spend less, you know, more time family time and have less money. That'd be like rushing around and fighting the clock and, you know, making it more difficult for the kids because at the end like it just stresses us all out if we don't if we try to cram too many things in not enough time. Absolutely. And yeah, it impacts everyone then doesn't it just stay home and how everyone's feeling about life? I think that's like as a as a parent. And as an artist like that is one of the hardest things, right? Because especially I feel like a big part of my happiness is tied into my creative time. Right? So that's the mental conversation they have internally, it's not always 100% About the money either. It's about like I gain, like this is where being an artist and like the financial aspect, like all that stuff gets so intermingled and weird, right? Because there is some like, personal fulfillment that comes out of creating those things, too. And like, how do you put a value on that? Oh, yeah, that's a big one. I've found the last few people that I've spoken to, for the podcast, this, this value has come up a lot this this concept of how society values places value on something, and it's just so money driven. It's all about the money. It's like, if you can't sell that and have $1 figure attached to it, then it's less value than you know, I really frustrates me. Yeah, conversation and I think that maybe because I own the gallery, and oh my gosh, when I first opened the gallery, it was quite ridiculous. I might not have had the best business plan ever. And we had like a 200 square foot revolving gallery that changed about every other month and then like a retail space that sold all like kind of local handmade goods and then a very large art studio and like teaching studio. And I hadn't really done the math on how much money I needed the revolving gallery to make I don't know why I originally just thought about it kind of as this fun experimental art space like coming out of New York and coming back down here like I really wanted that right. But very quickly, I realized that like we have to have something that we can sell like, it's really cool for someone to like come in here and hang a bike from the ceiling and paint a mural on the wall and do like whatever the thing is that they're feeling at the time. But if we don't have something to sell, then then how am I going to keep the space open and like riding that line right between like commodification, and just expressing ourselves and being. So that's where James and I have come to a place now, where when I'm coming up with some because I've done some wild projects, like after the BP oil spill, I've made this thing called the SOS security blanket, which was like a community art project around pollution. And there's no way that's making any money, like it totally was just like a heart project that I needed to do to process what had happened to our, our land to our you know, our environment. And so that's what so that's something else that him and I look at together is like, how much time like do you think this is going to take? And like, is this something that you're doing because of your love? Or your need of expression? Or is it something that's going to make money, and it's nice to kind of have that partition, right, and it's a freedom to be able to say like, well, I'm going to do this project, even if nobody pays any attention to it. And I'm just doing it for me, I'm doing it, but I'm going to do these other things, you know, to sell in this gallery, or to sell in this gift shop or to you know, for this coffee shop, or whatever I'm doing afford, and that's where the money is going to come from. Hmm. So it's a it's a good balance. Yeah, yeah. Did you find in your previous conversations like that people are saying, like, they want to do things. And but they feel like they can't because? Because if you can't make money off of it, then it's not worth the time. Yeah, not so much they can it the judgment that other people place on them for choosing to do that. Or, you know, an example that I give, I can't remember now, and it's really bad. But one of the mums I spoke to back in season one, she had her mother in law, right was babysitting her sister in law's child, and would do that quite happily, because the mum was going to work and act like a day job, right? In an office doing whatever. But she wouldn't babysit her children, because mom was just fluffing about doing her art. Right? So that judgment that comes, you know, that's not a serious job. That's, you know, that's not a real job, you're just fluffing about it's like, is that how society really sees creatives? Like, how bad is the first you know? And I think it kind of even goes back to the early part of this conversation with like, form or function, right? Like how people view the worth of what we do. But in the end of the day, like, if it worked for us creatives, what would we have? Who would design the cars who designed the computers? Who would make the television programs and like every night clean? Everything is the world that we live in? I don't know, how has it come to this valued the thing? I have said this many times in these podcasts. So apologies if you've heard this story before, but in Australia during COVID with the lock downs, right? We had, the movement between the states was quite limited. You weren't allowed across the borders, it was really quite full on it was, you know, probably a bit much to be honest. But football teams were Australian rules football, right? They were allowed to cross borders, they were allowed to go and play football wherever they wanted. But it was ridiculous, you know, and it was all the arts was shutting down. People couldn't go on tours with their, you know, bands, music, whatever, that was all shut down. But these these footballers, could just go do whatever they liked. And it just really showed the stark division in our culture. And I've talked to other people around the world and similar things, you know, sport is way up here. And that's again here, but it's like, who's making all the shows that you're watching while you're in lockdown? Who's creating content? Who's, like you said, physically designing cars and building houses and, like everything you can touch and see and feel has been made by somebody creative. You know, I think society just just makes me like get on this bandwagon. It makes me so good. It's legitimate, right? And I mean, football is like fun or whatever, you know, like people enjoy it. It's good to be healthy. But what what is that really contributing towards society? I don't know if that sounds like a shallow unappreciative thing, but I personally am not really into sports. Like that's not something that I enjoy. But I also don't see like what service are they, you know, what, you know, what they were doing? They were making money. It was money, you know, all the, the advert the advertising, people that pay to have their, you know, on the shows, you know, all that sort of that commodity driven, that's what it was, and they had to keep that going at the expense of everything else. And, I mean, that's very much like the same COVID politics here. It's really for me, makes me think that we need to have some kind of universal income or that guaranteed income, right like if We had something that was like, you just had like a basic living wage, right where like everybody has enough to like, be close, because that's what I've noticed. Like, there was a time when James and I, like we had no money, we were living so far below the poverty line. And it was such a struggle. And we're both very creative people who are driven and want to contribute to society. And beyond all of these, all of these great ideas. I'm trying to think of, do you know the program? FreshBooks? Oh, no. Oh, it's like, it's like a, it's like a program to help you with your bookkeeping and stuff like that. So my husband before that was a program when I was like, starting my gallery, you know, he had the idea to make a program like that, but he had to, like, you know, be so driven to make money to spend so much of his like, mental bandwidth on how to make money to like, get gas in our cars, and he thinks that there was no space to do these things that could be really beneficial to society. And so that's what I keep thinking, like people like, oh, people are gonna be lazy and just hang out and do drugs and blah, blah, they have guaranteed income. And like, look, there's already people that are lazy, and do drugs and are just hanging out. So why don't you give the rest of us and the majority of people I think, want to do something to entertain themselves. I mean, I don't think people would just sit around and be so lazy, right. And the people that are creatively driven, would then be able to really manifest so much more of what they're capable of, instead of just like running in that wheel of making money. Yeah. In Ireland, I think I saw something not long ago that they, they going to have a living wage for artists. So they're going to get a certain amount of money. I don't know if it's per month, or per week. And I was like, That is amazing. Because just the creativity is just going to explode. Like, you know, people with no limitations. What are they gonna make? It's gonna be amazing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, we'll move there. That was one of the things I was hoping out of COVID that people would see is like, it's interesting how we can all not go to work. And that means the economy isn't what does the economy even me? Like, it's really just like a made up? Like, it's a system that human beings have made up? Who maybe we should try to make a better system that works for everybody instead of like a minority of people. Hmm, absolutely. That's getting off topic now. But my husband, my husband's a financial planner, so we are incredibly different mindsets, right, like, so different. Tonight. Yeah. And so during COVID, they all of them had to work remotely. They're all at home, whatever, if they had a conference, they do it all online, on Zoom, whatever. And then this week, they've announced that they, they want them to go like interstate to go to this big conference. And I said, why? Like, just because you can now why go back to normal like, you not only like, what does the environment, you know, the cost of plane, the plane travel? You know, like, why? We've shown that we can do it without it. What? Why are we learning from this? Yeah, I think it's some people are, you know, it's just maybe a slow transition. I don't know. I think I'm forever an optimist to like, I want to believe that we're getting we've gotten something out of out of this difficult time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. You touched on earlier about your feeling when you're in the gallery and you had your husband on the phone trying to give the bottle and things weren't working. And you had that moment where you went, you know, the two most important people in my life are there and I'm here that sort of I don't want to put words in your mouth but like that, that guilt sort of creeping in trouble. Yeah, it was. Mum Mum gives us a topic that I asked all my guests about. Can you share sort of your thoughts about put it in air quotes? Monkey? Oh, cuz it's like a construct to think about? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it doesn't matter what your career is. Right? Like as a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no we're we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house. Not look like a big mess. Right and like show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything we don't like do There's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like, it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour. And that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes? You know, and it doesn't create this, like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes? Because he's a partnership. You know, like, I mean, he is great. Like, I'm not dissing on him at all. Like, he is an amazing 100%. Like, we are partners, we both do all the things, but like, from people looking in, right, whatever that social guilt is that social structure guilt, societal guilt of like, it doesn't matter how much we do, it is never ever enough. Yeah, I think that it caused me something, there's definitely days that I like, I'm in my pottery studio, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna set a timer. And the kids have like, their 45 minutes of screen time that they can have. And I'm going to do X amount of projects, and then that timer goes off, and I ignore it, the kids are happily in there with their screen time. And I'm just like, in the zone, and so happy. But then I come out of the zone. And I'm so guilt ridden. I'm like, Oh, they watched an extra hour of TV, you know, and just really write myself, but then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what's an extra hour TV to me being refreshed, and able to be more present with them? And I think that that's like how I'm trying to navigate the mom guilt. But it is. It is real, and it is hard. And it it just it makes doing everything difficult, right? Like I want to say being a creative difficult, but it's not just being a creative, right? It's just that like, constant need to make sure that your kids are in the right schools, your kids are playing the right sports or doing the right extracurricular activity, or I don't even know and I don't know what, like you were saying before about like, some people just want a formula, you know, or like a way like to know what to do. And sometimes I feel like that is a mom and like, I wish you could just I guess they do right? They say like the pediatric recommended recommendation for hours of free time, right? I don't. I don't know what the answer is. But yes, definitely. struggle with it so much. And sometimes I have a studio assistant that comes and helps me sometimes. And she also has a small child. And she came in the other day. And Arthur was like, in a diaper in my studio, sitting in a chair with the iPad, like prop of the stool in front of it. And she was like, Oh my gosh, it's so refreshing to see that this is how you get things done. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess maybe I should put more of that, like on social media. I think that that's always the hard thing, too. That creates a lot of guilt within us, right as we have these very meticulously cure. I mean, I don't, I would not, say a meticulously curate my, via social media, but like, it's not like I want it to be a snapshot of the reality of my life. But I definitely am not taking pictures of my kid in my underwear with like, boogers all over it. Watching his iPad, like eating pirate booty, you know? I mean, maybe we should do that. Maybe we should do that more. I don't know. I mean, it's not beautiful. It doesn't fit into that. It's the gram. But that's the thing, too. I think so many times. I know personally, I've taken a photo of a similar sort of situation, like I'm trying to record something. So I've got the kids doing something, whatever it is. And I'll hesitate posting because I think the amount of people that are going to judge me for that, that don't know, my, that aren't in my home. And I think for a second I think Oh, bugger. Um, and then I think, no, because how I don't know, I just can't wear it. You know what I mean? I I'm not ready for I suppose. judging me judgment is real. And it doesn't feel like I think that's it like the mom guilt is feeling like we're not adequate. Like, we're suddenly to the people that we love the most in the world. We're somehow damaging them or like not doing good enough for them. Right. And so the idea that some stranger is going to kill him, and he's going to say that to you. It's like, yeah. Oh my gosh, that just heightens that inner voice that somehow I'm not doing this, right. Absolutely. Or I'm not doing it well enough. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we need to have some kind of like, social media space. It's like, like, what was that? Oh, I think it was like a Pinterest fails or something like one of those. Like, some grandparenting disaster thing where like, we all just like put the reality. You know, here's my kid, like covered and whatever, do something crazy. We could just be honest, without fear. Yeah, without the fear of judgment. Judge freezone Yeah, yeah. Yeah. First, yeah, another thing that frustrates me and then I frustrate myself because I think why am I letting other people that I don't know. You know, I do know a lot of people that I follow but a little follow me a lot of people I don't know, why am I letting that worry me? Why don't I just like, the way I approach my music is like, I'll make my music for me, right? I don't make it for anyone in Most people are going to love it, there's people that aren't going to love it. But that doesn't affect the way that I make my music. I just do it because I want to. So why don't I have the rest of my life like that? You know, it's like, maybe because it's so? I don't know, because it affects you, like you said, it's you're talking about the people that you love the most, and you try to do the best for them. So if someone then brings to your attention that perhaps, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, you're like, oh, no, I'm ruining my children, you know, because it affects somebody else. It's harder to do. Yeah. And I feel like the way you're describing creating is also my same process, right? Like, it's this weird, like, I'll get like, the spark of an idea. And then it's like, I'm like, I want to, like, I want to see it manifested or maybe for you, like you want to hear it like in this three dimensional world. And so it's like, spending this time to, like, bring it forward from a very, from like, a complete non existence into the world, right. And I don't know what the kids is like, they're already here. And they're already like, throwing tantrums sometimes and why, like, they definitely do things that I mean, my children regularly do things that make me question like, am I somehow doing this wrong? So then I think when someone you know, when someone has the audacity to tell me that I'm doing it wrong, because they saw some picture that I thought I was funny that I put on Instagram, it really? Yeah, it makes me question more. And I think, I don't know, I'm definitely no parenting expert. But I think no matter what happens, everybody experiences some kind of trauma in their life. So it doesn't matter. Like how good of a parent we tried to be or how, you know, wonderful. We tried to make everything for our kids like they're, they're going to run into bullies or difficult times, you know, so I don't know. Yeah, somehow we have got to let go of I'm gonna think about that. More like that idea of like being the perfect parent and why? Or maybe the perfect isn't even my work. But what is it that causes that guilt? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's something for us to think about. Yeah, to get to the root of it, because maybe if we can understand it, we can stop feeling it so much. Yeah, you know, absolutely. That's good. We've had a bit of syrup. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, there was a joke. At one point in my pottery studio, they were like, oh, pottery, Mercedes, it's cheaper than therapy. And I was like, you guys, I'm gonna have to raise my prices. Because I don't know if I could be handled via your therapist, and your pottery teacher. That's a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. Moving back to your, your art and your work. Have you got anything coming up in the future that you want to share about or anything that you've got work you're working on now that you want to give a bit of a plug? Tell us what you're up to. Well, I don't I mean, I have a lot of ideas in the works but I don't have anything like for sure dates. Like I was saying earlier, I'm hoping that the fall of this year to have a show together a full body of work around the marionettes but I'm not 100% Sure but that like that is what's in what I'd like crafting in my mind for my next like big group work. And then I'm currently working on a series that will just go into retail shops that is something that I tend to touch on almost every spring which is kind of like botanical themed pieces. So I've been creating these I'm calling them plates but it's not like it's like a printer's plate not like a plate that you would eat off of. So I'm pushing the flowers into the clay and then I'm gonna use those to like make the plates off of I've got a few of them I think I might have posted them on my interest Instagram, but I'm going to do a whole spring collection around like that there's so it'll all be like you know, things that are in bloom right now on bowls and plates and probably some planters so usually I tried to do a spring collection in the fall collection so that and that main relief will be like online, through artists on a boutique, but I don't have a date or anything like that, that yet. And then during COVID I started folding the 1000 paper cranes. Again, it's a second time that I've done it and I'm about I think about a little over 400 in so I'm hoping I'm still not sure how what that is going to manifest into other than like I did it you know, I don't know if you know the story of the 1000s papercraft as I can ask you. Yeah, so it's a it's a Japanese tradition that I think I don't know where it really originated, but a lot of the stories that you hear revolve around the Hiroshima Like the bombing of Hiroshima, and the the people trying to heal after that. So the idea is the person that folds 1000 origami cranes, like it's like a meditation and a wish for something. And so people didn't really people that are ill, or people that are getting married, things like that the 1000 frames for them. So during COVID, I decided, I think it was like during the second wave or something like that, that I was going to fold it for, like, you know, the end of like, for a healing for our world for COVID. And also like for my COVID anxiety because I think that cry crafting a just moving my hands really helps me just deal with that like anxious energy. So anytime I would feel really overwhelmed about something to do with COVID, I would just like pull the crane pull the crane. So I'm not sure. I may do some kind of installation with that after the fact that haven't 100% decided where those credits are going to end up. But so far. So that's another project that I'm currently in the works on. But nothing was solidified. Because that's one of my things as like with the being a parent and an artist. I tried not to give myself very many deadlines. Because that that if you're stressed out, and not a very good parent, or artists. Yeah, that's it. It's hard to do anything with that sort of pressure over your head, and then you everything suffers because you like you can't stop being a parent. And you can't stop being an artist. But sometimes they can't work at the same time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yep, I love that. This has been a nice talk. Oh, it's been awesome. I really enjoyed. I've really, really enjoyed talking to everybody, because I enjoy talking to everybody. But I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. It's been really lovely. Yeah, well, what a great job to get to talk to artists about art, you know, and that's what we love. It's so good. Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. I mean, I think it's so good for the global mom, community for all of us. You know, it really, it's, it's lovely to like be in the studio and just listening to other artists like talk about how they do it and get ideas, you know, yeah, that's it. A lot of people have said that, actually, it's really good to hear how the people are doing it. And it's just reassuring to hear that we're all in the same boat. Like it's just, we're all gone through that evacuation. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ Podcast - instagram / website Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Damien Leith Irish Australian singer, songwriter, author and playwright S4Ep99 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts To celebrate Fathers Day in the US and northern hemisphere I am thrilled to welcome well known Irish / Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damien is a multi-talented artist that has made his mark in Australia as a singer/ songwriter, producer, author, playwright and tv/radio host personality and he is a dad of 3 children. Damien grew up in Ireland surroudned my music, but didnt get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and 2 sisters and toured around Ireland. He came to Australia in 2003 after meeting his soon to be wife Eileen in Ireland, on the first leg of a round the world trip, and has never left! The talented family man first captured the attention and affection of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol – a series he went on to win. Since then, his career skyrocketed, but he has remained charming, grounded and modest – securing him a place as a popular and well-loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years Damien has enjoyed platinum-selling albums selling over 750,000 albums and won many prestigious awards including Arias, a Golden Guitar, Songwriter of the Year and many more. His Aria wins include number 1 chart awards for the albums WHERE WE LAND and THE WINNER'S JOURNEY, highest selling album, and highest selling single and number 1 chart award for the track, NIGHT OF MY LIFE. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and television shows. Damien was a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of DANCING WITH THE STARS. Damien also loves creative writing, publishing two novels ONE MORE TIME (2007) and REMEMBER JUNE (2009). He also shares his expertise as a singer/songwriter and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through his DAMIEN LEITH ACADEMY. When Damien is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his recording studio where he is a highly sought-after songwriter (published through Embassy Publishing) and producer. Writing for many artists, he won 2016 APRA/ASA songwriter of the year and 2017 APRA/AMCOS GOLDEN GUITAR winner for song of the year. This episode contains mentions of OCD Damien - website / shows Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Damien. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast today to celebrate Father's Day in the US and other countries around the world. I'm thrilled to welcome well known Irish Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damian is a multi talented artists that has made his mark in Australia as a singer and songwriter, a producer, author, playwright and TV and radio host and he's also the dad of three children. Damien grew up in Ireland surrounded by music, but didn't seriously get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and two sisters and toured around Ireland. In 2003. After meeting his soon to be Wi Fi lane, he set out on the first leg of around the world trip and arrived in Australia, and he has never left. This talented family man first captured the attention and affections of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol, a series that he went on to win. Since then his career has skyrocketed. But he's remained charming, grounded and modest, securing him a place as a popular and well loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years, Damien has enjoyed platinum selling albums, and won many prestigious awards, including Arias, a golden guitar Songwriter of the Year and many more. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and TV shows. Damien was also a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of Dancing with the Stars. He also loves Creative Writing, Publishing two novels in 2007 and 2009. He also shares his expertise as a singer songwriter, and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through the Damien Leith Academy. When Damian is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his studio, where he's a highly sought after songwriter, and producer. Today's episode contains mentions of OCD. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Damian's music, which is used with permission from my APA and cost money online license. Thanks so much for tuning in. I appreciate your ongoing support due to changing work commitments, my nine to 5am I unable to keep doing the podcast every week. So over the next few weeks, please enjoy some written articles, which will be released every Friday. And you can find them on my website. Alison newman.net/articles. I got you, I got you thank you so much for coming on. Damian. It's such a pleasure to meet you. Likewise, absolute pleasure. Yeah, it's really great to have you on. I've been a really big fan of yours for a very long time. So I'm saying to go silly now. Well, that's nice. There's nothing wrong with that. I've actually seen you perform at the Irish festival. I've been croit the few years ago. I love that festival every time I've played there quite a few times now. Maybe five times and I love it. It's such a great vibe. Here. Little town as well. So, yeah. Oh, it was a real treat get down there. Yeah, yeah. Have you got it on your plans to come back anytime soon? I don't have the not for the next two years at least. Yeah. Because I observed the last time was it last year, I think, last year or the year before? Yeah. So. So we normally have a little bit of a gap. So but and it's also it's based around an invite as well. So he kind of wants to get an invite as well by the organizers. But I'll definitely be back. I love it. It is just a gorgeous vibe. And like, it feels like being back in Ireland, it's kind of a little Irish town. So there's something about that little town that just works. It's funny, because the rest of the year, it's basically just this little town that exists, and no one knows about it. And then for this one weekend of the year just explodes. And it's just, it's awesome. We just love it. So much fun. And I did enjoy the version you played last time you were there of black is the color that you sang with, I think it was a local girl that sang with you. And that, that that federal part in the middle, and then it changes. I don't know what the chords are. But it changes back from the Federal part to the like, the regular verse. And then it's one bit where it just changes. And every time I hear I just get goosebumps. It's like it just lifts and I can't describe it really. But it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. So Oh, well. That's great. That part actually, that was that was originally played by Sharon core from the course. Oh, are you kidding? Yeah. Which which was an incredible experience. I I recorded an Irish album. And the whole idea was to try and make it as authentic as possible. So I recorded it in Ireland. And and while we were there, we managed to get two major major guests. One was Sharon core. And the other one was Sharon Shannon. And Sharon Shannon has I think she played Corona as well. Incredible accordion player, but they haven't haven't Sharon core on there was a real real treat. You know, I'd been a fan of the course when I was a kid. So I happen a core actually play and so she sings on it as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. Very cool. Very cool. Great violinist. Yeah, they're actually they're coming to Australia. Soon I think that's fine. Pretty much everyone would know you from your dates on the Australian Idol. But what did you do before then? Like, when did you come to Australia? And when did you get into singing? Was it always something that you did growing up in Ireland? Yeah, singing singles was a major part of my life. From the age of about 1617 onwards. Prior to that the only thing I ever wanted to do was be an actor. I loved acting. Yes. For years and years. And I've never sung a note until I was about, I think I will say 17. But I think it was about 16. I auditioned for a school musical. That's, that's really what got me into music, music. But music has always been in the family. My mother is a great singer. And she her whole family are all singers. So there's a long, long history of singers in the family and dad plays guitar. So music was a major part of our lives growing up. But from the age of about 17 onwards, I became obsessed with music. Absolutely, you know, totally over the top of our music, I started learning how to play the piano on the guitar and I started writing my own songs. And I convinced the rest of my family to create a family band with me. So it was my two brothers, my sister and myself. And we went from just this little band that played out in the back garden in the in the shed to a band that actually gig all over Ireland. Yeah, yeah, we absolutely loved it. So, so I was doing that. But I also studied to become a chemist. So So in the end, I actually became a chemist. And, and prior to arriving in Australia, I was a full time chemists or works as an industrial chemist. Yeah, from 995 as a chemist, and at the weekends as a musician, and it was great. Yeah, right. Just on that what's what's the difference between a compounding chemist in an industrial chemist? Well, from what you actually studied at uni, it they they kind of started the same path but one definitely branches off so I would have gone more into the to the actual lab style chemistry where an actual compound chemists or somebody who actually run runs a store works in the store. They specialize in, in knowing and understanding what medicine should be prescribed to certain person and on all the different side effects and you know, everything that is required for someone to be able to actually deal with a patient might come in off the street where I was definitely more from the research side. And I did load research. I researched for years I did. I did all sorts of different drug research trials. I did, you know, analysis on new drugs that were coming out so I did a lot of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting sometimes you was it your chemist work deployed to Australia or your music that brought you out here? It was love that brought me out of here it was. It had nothing to do with the other two. Nothing whatsoever. My wife is Australian. I met her in Ireland. And from the moment we met, it was kind of a love at first sight. We were married within three years. Yeah, it was, you know, a whirlwind, but absolutely amazing. So I met her in Ireland. She was visiting her grandmother, so her dad's Irish, her mother's tongue. And she was obviously born in Australia. So she was over there visiting her grandmother, I happen to be working in the same place that she was working. And one thing led to another and yet Three years later, we were married and decided to go around the world on a honeymoon. So we had around the world ticket one the SLUBs happened to be in Sydney. And once we arrived in Sydney, we never left. Oh, there you go save still got that rest of that holiday to go at some point. Expired I think unfortunately, that's really the sun go down on Galway. Just stay here again, the ripple of the trout stream. Where man in the meadow is making desired a turf RM Nakaba. 17 is sort of older to come into music. So I can sort of understand how you sort of described it as being like you've really got into it all of a sudden, because it's almost like you were sort of cramming in, like 17 years worth of, of music catching up, you know, that sort of thing. Does that is that sort of how it felt like you were just sucking in everything you could and sort of soaking it all up. Yeah, it was like that. It was also such a new experience. Because once I got a taste for music, I really found that I enjoyed it in a major way. I mean, I love the feeling of singing. It was one of those sort of things I used to go into the living room back home in Ireland, we lived in a little country town called Milltown out surrounded by farm fields. So there wasn't a whole bunch of houses all around around us where, you know, if I was singing at the top of my lungs, people would be given out. But I just loved the feeling. I loved going into room and I loved challenging myself to try and sing high notes or to try and sing like Frank Sinatra or nakin core. Interestingly, when I started singing, I did not sing a lot of the songs that traditional, you know, traditionally people would start off singing and I didn't go through that, that whole you know, going through scales and all that sort of stuff because I never had lessons or was just CDs that are logged in. And like I said Nat King Cole was probably one of my major artists that I saw long term which is very strange, because that can cause quite a low singer. And I ended up with quite a high range. But I just love the emotion and the likes of Nat King Cole and and all the all crooners just to put into songs. I love that feeling of being able to tell a story. Hmm, yeah. And I guess that that sort of ties in with like, the Irish heritage of like a lot of the songs that that stories really in song format, they there's a lot like that. Yeah, oh, absolutely. All those old Irish stories, they're all the stories about losing someone or some sort of conflict or something that was really that had a major impact on someone's life. And, and the only way you can sing those songs is by putting, putting a lot of feeling into them. So I think for me starting off, being interested in all of that style of music really helped me out on that, but I've been a singer for last since I can remember. But it wasn't until I went to the Irish festival in Croydon and actually was around people singing like the crowds of people singing and realized how many like, I don't want to get political or anything, but like the passion and the struggles that, like people from Ireland had faced throughout the years like and it just, it was really overpowering at one point, I sort of found myself sort of, I don't know, in this moment where I just had this realization of what it all meant, like, it's not just a duty and a little happy tune about whatever like, it's like, the real background in some of those songs is really quite powerful. Yeah. Oh, they are. Absolutely. And it's interesting that a lot of those old Irish songs, the message is very, very strong. They, a lot of them were written, inspired by actual events that really, really moved people that influenced their entire lives. But those stories still still carry on, even now, many years later. And even though they don't always link necessarily to the political side of stuff, the sentiment is so strong that if you've got something in your own life, that means a lot to you. Like, a real common thing for anyone living in Australia from Ireland is homesickness. The the melody and melancholy of a lot of those songs, helps you sometimes with your homesickness, and there's something in the in the music that by singing it, or by listening to it, you don't know you get a kind of a way of dealing with missing home or being homesick. Yeah. hard to describe. But this is the songs are just so beautifully written that they allow you to express your emotions. Yeah, no, I can I can understand that. And yeah, like, oh, come in process saying I was there was one in particular, I thought the first time I ever heard it saying around me. That one about the Freebirds fly. What's that? Yeah, I didn't realize like, Oh, my God, this is full on like, this is people, you know, as Australians, and like most of us have never had to fight for our country or fight for our identity. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. Like, and that my friend Helen. She's from Northern Ireland. So yeah, she's got a different perspective on it, too. But yeah, interesting. I just wanted to mention that without, you know, going into things. No, no, I told you that my dad's from Belfast. So, you know, so I traveled up and down to Northern Ireland when I was a kid. And I saw different stages of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And I mean, Arlen really was a country at war. That is something that sometimes when people refer Carlon, the kind of the make light of that, but actually, it was really serious situation really, really, truly was and, and affects so many people that see it. And I think from like, I mean, I tend to think of myself as a worldly sort of person. Like, I listened to the news, I watch things, whatever. But until I'd met someone, that it was from there and understood it, I had no concept, no concept at all, you know, like you just you just hear words like, you know, about Shin Fane and things like that. And the IRA, but you don't really get it. So yeah. Yeah. The pie, supine, soft call. From Glen to the mountains. This summer's gone. So you said before you've never had singing lessons. So were you just self taught like your falsetto. And in your range? You just worked that all out on your own? Yeah, I did. It was It's the voice that I have my the sound that I have, is a very familiar sound in amongst my mom's family. So there's definitely a history there. The sound of the voice, it's definitely traveled from through the generations, there's no question about that. So what I discovered that I could sing, I was actually very blessed, to have a voice already had a lot of the things that I would need to actually perform. Now, none of it was developed, I still had the scene and sing and sing and sing, to try and get to improve and to find my own style and find my own way around it. But yeah, but you know, I think with a voice, you're either born with a certain sound, or you work on it, it's one or the other. The voice can always be improved beyond that. But I was definitely in that category of someone who just had a voice to begin with. Yeah, like I've I've had, I can relate to that. Like, I've had a lot of coaching later in life with my singing. And it sort of comes down to literally what sort of voice box you've got, like the length of your, whatever those things are called in your throat and how thick they are, you know, you can't you can't change your genetics, but you can definitely work with what you've got to get the best out of it. For sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're it's, you know, Your Your makeup is all about the style, your voice, the tone, your voice comes from, you know, the space within your mouth, your approach the the air that's passing through the larynx, all of that comes into effect. So your genetics definitely come into into play with what you're going to end up having. Obviously, you can't improve it, you can widen the range. And you can try and get resonance to sit in a different place in your mouth, and all that sort of stuff as well to improve it. But you can be very fortunate just to be born with a certain sound. Yeah, that's something I've gotten really interested in the last few years is where you place the sound in your face, like where you can we can get that different sound and pushing it out through your nose or, you know, I don't know, like when you've been singing for a long time, I think you start to sort of experiment a bit more and think how you can change your tone. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I found that really interesting. Probably the last five years, getting a bit more into that will interest in last year, near the end of last year, I managed to get COVID. And I got COVID While I still had loads of shows on so I had tons of shows I had this thing, I couldn't cancel the show's canceled for many reasons. But probably the main reason was COVID had arrived, you know, three years prior to that, and I lost so many shores. And I had to reschedule them so many, many times that they eventually came about, I couldn't just cancel them again, I had this thing on it. So I did a sang on them. And while I was doing that, I also had a breakfast radio show. So I was getting up early in the morning, I was doing the radio show as well. And by the end of last year, I actually I heard my voice genuinely hurt my voice. And I ended up attending an en ti and the NT, you know, examined my throat. And so what damage was thanks, thankfully, nothing long term, but enough damage that I was actually for the first time in my life in the last two months, instructed not to sing. Well, this complete rest, complete rest and also to attend a speech pathologist and a singing teacher. So for the first time ever, I've really had for a long period of time of working with a singing teacher, and I've been really looking into your voice and then where you place things and and it's extraordinary what your voice can actually do. It really is an amazing instrument. It can do things that you just wouldn't imagine that it can actually do. And it does it all from the inside. So you you know, it's not like a guitar where you can actually touch it and you can change the strings. This is all controlled by air the whole thing all controlled by air. It's a it's an amazing instrument. Yeah, it is fascinating. When you think of it like that. Did you get nodules? Is that what happened to you? Or no, I didn't thankfully. I was worried that I did. Yeah, because I had to push so hard. I had so many shows all that some time when I was sick. Thankfully, no, no long term damage at all. Basically, it was like I sprained my throat. Like so. I just had the rest of its back. And it's working really, really well. That's good. Thank goodness. Can you imagine like, did you ever go through your mind? Like, what if I can't get back to my, you know, my previous power? What will I do with myself like, was your head yeah, yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. I was I was worried sick. And like I said, thankfully, I went to the right people and the right people pointed me in the right direction. And actually, as a result of it, I think I'm coming out of it as a better singer, which is what I'm loving the most. There's there's things that I had been doing wrong because it didn't have the experience the training, there was things that I was actually I have always done wrong, that now I've fixed for going forward and I think it's already improved in the sound of my voice and it's improving my range and what I can do with the voice, which is great. Hmm, so a little bit of a silver lining to the code. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I had COVID this time last year, and I found it took a long time for my my power to come back that like you know, just getting the air in that that was the thing that took took a really long time. So it really messes with you. It's a horrible thing. Oh somebody's like you know? Tell us a little bit about your family. I read on the internet that you've got three children. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about them. Yeah, so I'm married to Ireland. Ireland. As I said, I've met in Ireland and she's originally from Australia. So when we moved to Australia was 20 years ago, we arrived in Australia. We were broke because we were doing a run the world trip. When we decided to get jobs, I got straight into the chemistry and Ireland got into the marketing and, and within a short space of time, Australia started to feel like home to us. So it was around that point that we got pregnant with Jarvis. Jarvis is our oldest. He's 17. fast forward another couple of years along him Jagger who's 15. And then along came little Kiki she's 11 and and the the three proudest things that I've done in my lifetime. I gotta be honest, people always say, Oh, well, what's the what's the best best memories? Or what are the best moments in your life and for me, it always revolves around Island jobs Jagger and Kiki the kids and Ireland. That's really it. They all have those moments of clips, anything else, you know, there's nothing that really compares to, to spending time with them. And with the kids watching them grow and become the people that they want to become. It's it's an amazing experience. It's challenging, of course, lots and lots of but it is great. Yeah. And yeah, now that they're getting older, like you said, they're, they're developing and turning into, you know, their own real people. It's a pretty exciting time, I've got a just turned 15 year old and a seven year old and yeah, this 15 year old watching him trying to work out what to do with school and picking subjects and just thinking about the future. Now that's it's a whole new world, isn't it? It is, and it's a strange, new, we're alive. I think. I sound like an old person here. But back in my day, it seemed a lot simpler. It, it's interesting, they have so much at their disposal now with technology and with everything else, but it seems more complicated than ever, because of all that. They're the exposure that they're dealing with and, you know, impacts on on a lot their choices and impacts about their emotions and how they feel. We're back in our day, we didn't have all that at all. So you may do with what you had. Now, I find the new generation has everything. And it's hard for them to make do with it. Because if they don't like it, they move on to something else. Yeah, that whole idea of not concentrating enough time on any particular thing. I actually think that's a real challenge for this generation coming through. Well, I'm early childhood educator in my day job. And we actually were talking about this exact subject at a training I went to on last week, that they reckon that because of like the likes of Tik Tok, and in YouTube and Instagram, where the algorithms will throw things at you to keep you on there. So you might watch a little bit of something, and then it goes, Oh, they're about to get off. So let's give them this. So our brains are changing, and are only used to concentrating for really short amounts of time now, because of what we're exposed to, which is really scary. I think it's very scary. I think, from a creative point of view. It's going to, I worry that it might impact the next generation come through from a creative point of view, you know, that that whole idea of sitting down and really concentrating and creating something that's, that's been taken away? Because technology is kind of sitting in there, you've got the AI now that can write stories for you who got Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're exposed to so many different things that they don't actually have to sit down, and really concentrate in and come up with something themselves, they can actually technology can do it for them. And while that's an amazing thing, and like I say, I sound like my day sort of person, but I do worry about it. I think on one level, it can be great. And on the flip side, it can take away that whole creative side and creative sides are really what matters most to me. I love the creative world. I love seeing what people can come up with using their their talents and their abilities. It's essentially taking away what it means to be human, isn't it? It's like, you can plug this thing into a computer, and it will be will write a story or or do a painting, you know, all this? Yeah, it's just taking away what it really means to be human. I feel like it's, it's horrible. Yeah. But what to me what may happen as a result of this is that the next generation are very creative people coming through, will have to be even more rebellious than ever before, because they'll have to stand up in the past that the creative person was was often quite, quite often the the rebellious person, the person that went against society or the person who went against the norm. They've got an even bigger challenge. They're going against the norm and they're going against simplicity. Because it's, you know, if you have a feeling about something, you could always just go oh, just chant. Type it into an AI and it'll just write it for me. So they You have to be strong willed. And they have to make that really conscious decision that says, You know what, I'm going to be an individual here entirely. So that that I create something that hasn't been created before. And I think that'll pose a lot of challenges. It's like when we're breeding a whole new range of rebels that are gonna go against this next next level of technology, you will have to be an individual. There's so much stopping them from doing that. Yeah, yeah. And things always go in cycles. That's the thing I always find, like, I'm hoping that this, this AI and stuff will, will sort of ease off because people will start to go, oh, hang on, this isn't right. And it'll, you know, hopefully go against it, and take it down a notch. But we can only hope, time will tell. But on the flip side, I will say I because I'm a real. I do like technology. Because I record in my own studio and things like that. The things that you can do with technology are incredible. So it'll be it'll be that idea of finding the right balance of knowing when to switch off and when to switch off. Yours can be. Want to ask you about your other creative talents that you've actually written some books as well. When did you get into writing? Is that something you always did? Or is that a sort of a new thing you discovered? No, I always did it. I as a kid growing up, when I was very, very young, I developed OCD. Like real OCD. As opposed to a lot of people will say, Oh, I'm an OCD because I have my house clean. This is more than just the OCD that actually impacts your day, your day to day activities, on and off light switches and all this crazy stuff. But I developed that as a young age. And one of the mechanisms for dealing with it was the right to take the thoughts that I had and put them into some sort of writing. So from a very young age, I used to write plays. I love writing plays and and I wrote them in primary school and secondary school and, and that writing eventually moved into stories. And then books. So actually the first book that I got published, I'd written before I even went on Australian Idol and I wrote it while I was traveling in the UK. I love it. I love writing, it's one of my favorite things is to just get lost in a story. Again, that's why I'm also passionate with with artistic things and doing that. It's great for the mind as well. So if you have you written anything like you talked about running plays, have you written anything that's been put on as a production. I went back years ago, again, when I was writing most of the plays, I had nearly all of them put on at different points. But it was also on an amateur level, little amateur drum societies. I've asked him to put it on the do table reads and actually, I've had it luckily I've had a few of them put on. And I love that. So it was just fantastic to see see these things coming to life, and then also gave me an opportunity to act on them. Yeah, so you got to live out that dream as well. Yeah, exactly. But I like to say I love writing plays. And I started off with plays because I wasn't much of a reader. I didn't like reading. So I didn't have the vocab to to really describe things. So I started off with plays and then as time went on, I got into reading and developed the you know, better language and better ways of describing things and and that led to the books. And you write fiction work? Yeah, I suppose the the books that are released so far, both fiction, one is a guy traveling through Nepal, backdrop of the most. The poor enforcement of Nepal, we myself, my wife, Eileen, we traveled through Nepal during our honeymoon. We saw how politically it was going through an awful tough time. And that was kind of an inspiration for the for the book. And it was about a guy with OCD traveling in that sort of environment. So it had little, little elements of being in there as well. Yeah. Essentially, it was a kind of psychological thriller. Yeah. And then the second book was, again, it was a had a psychological element to it, but it was about a father and a son growing up in the troubles of Ireland. And the two of them how they cope with grief and loss and also their own relationships. So again, it's more of a psychological story. But what I love doing, give me a chance to write about it. And then reminisce. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. You can sort of incorporate the two sort of fiction nonfiction together. Do you have any writing at the moment? Are you working on another book or anything? I actually I have a book. I was, I wrote another book. I'm trying to walk republishing. So this one is a kids book. Oh, cool. Yeah. So we the book is finished. We're now at the second stage of editing it. So hopefully, it'll be out later this year, or maybe the start of next year. Oh, fantastic. Are you allowed to share what it's about? Or is it a bit secretive at the moment, I can give a little idea. Now, it's, it's more in the style of Roald Dahl. And that's probably the audience I, I always told bedtime stories to my kids. And I have hundreds of these have also recorded them. So I've still got them on my phone. Oh, cool. Yeah. But along the way, there was one story, I started to tell the kids. And it ended up being one of those continuation stories where you say, oh, you know, to find out what happens next, in your bed this time tomorrow night. And I ended up recording, you know, chapters of this whole thing I listened back to about a year or so ago. And that's, you know, that could really lend itself to a good story. So I sat down and start writing it. But ultimately, it's about two sisters who get separated when when they're very, very young. They're in the care of a horrible, horrible lady who only wants to take them on board, as foster kids purely to use them to clean up or disgusting house and to slave them around the place. But in the midst of all that, they get separated. And then it fast forward to many years later. And these these kids have got to find each other. But the horrible lady still had to get them and you know, follows that sort of path. Oh, that sounds exciting. Oh, good luck with that, oh, we're looking for that when it comes out. That's fantastic. worrying, because that's what the old folks to say. You can always tell the beggar from the fee. But you know, that I love that about you. Today, to ask you a bit more about yourself as a as a father, have you found with your songwriting, since you had two kids that you've sort of changed how you write or what you write about, is it they sort of inspire you a little bit? It always inspires me? Yeah, for me Sunland, and has always been linked to personal things in my life. So all was personally driven. And definitely once the kids came along, all the songs came, you know, all the songs that I started writing had some sort of family influence, whether it be discovering that, you know, for instance, and could like a couple examples, not just for the weekend was on one of my first albums that that song was purely about my son Jagger getting to take him home from hospital. That's really what it's about. That moment of knowing that, hey, you actually get to take him home from hospital a lot of other people couldn't, for different reasons, premature babies and all sorts of situations why they couldn't bring their gorgeous little child home from hospital. But we did. And we got got to experience a beautiful moment. So I wrote a song about that. song Beautiful. I wrote about my wife, Eileen. There's a song that I've got coming out later on the year, which is first day of school. And that's all about dropping my daughter to school for the first time. And then my thoughts about Well, I had to give her away to school on that day, and I had the lever and then a password to actually keep it away on our wedding day. Yeah. Yeah. Together. Yeah. And then there's another son called Son for Jarvis. And like, literally, it states exactly who it's for. Yeah. Do the kids. Do they know that you're writing about them? Like, do they feel that sort of connection that this is really cool. But dad write songs for us? Oh, well, I don't know. Actually. Yeah. Yeah, I've never openly told him that the songs are for them. They just hear the songs and they're like them. It's funny. They're all at that stage where they've got their own interests, their own, what they like and what they what they don't like. So I never pushed music down their throats at all on any level. It's always there for them. And if they if they want to get involved, or if they want to sing or if they want to hear something. I'm there for them. But there's definitely no never any pressure for them even to listen to my songs. Yeah. Are they do they play? Are they musical? Yeah, they're all really musical. Yeah, they're there. They love acting. They're all in musicals as well, local musical societies. But they all play and they all sing as well. So it's great. It's seen it and it's great. Seeing that they just do it because they want to. Yeah, that's a big thing. I think like I grew up us for 20 years I sang in this vocal group. And we got to this age, we all started having kids around the same time. And some of the girls were like, really wanted their children to follow in their footsteps and seeing them, whatever. And I was like, Ah, I don't know, I don't think my kid would stand still long enough on stage to sing. So I never put any pressure on him. And, and even when he's like, playing music, like my husband and I both play, but that's our Do you want me to teach you anything? Or show you something? No, I don't want to. And now, all of a sudden, at the age of was about 13 and a half, how do you decide you want to play the bagpipes? So it definitely didn't come from us. It was. So I think I think it's good just to let them go and see where they end up. And yeah, even when you're really you're really passionate about music yourself. It's like you don't want to, you know, push them so much that they start to resent it, because you're always on their back about playing something. So, yeah, well, we're exactly the same. We're just like I said, it's there. If they want to learn something, if they just got a passion for something, and they want to get lessons, we try to provide that for them. But it's really over to them. They what is gorgeous to see is that they have shown interest anyway. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Because you are saying to someone the other day on the on a recording that you just want your kids to experience music because it's so awesome. Like, you just, you just want them to see how amazing it isn't because you love it so much. It's like you want them to, to experience all the wonderful things about it to know what am I sort of? Yeah, and what it can do for your life. Because music. I mean, you know, so many hospitals use now musical music as a way of, of helping people through all sorts of traumas and all sorts of treatments, because music has that ability to raise spirits, or as we said earlier on with the Irish music, to allow you to talk about things or get your emotions out. So music is such an important thing. And if anyone can discover and discover Laufer can really help them in their life, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I sort of said to my son, like, he's at the age now where everyone's all his mates are getting jobs. And he's not quite ready for that yet, sort of, he hasn't sort of he's still organizing his way through school. Yeah, he's not quite ready to add anything else to it. But I said like what you're doing with your SyncML you with the music, like he paid plays in the local Pipe Band. It's like you're learning all those skills about cooperation and compromise and you're listening to others and you know, you can learn so much from playing music with other people. Yeah, absolutely. Being in a bounder being in some sort of organization is a great thing. Really is and you make great friends as well. So why not? Yeah, absolutely. Now take you home. Not just for the weekend. Jays days. Welcome in and I give you not just for this moment. Now, I want to mention and hopefully I'm not going to go on about this too long. I'm a massive Beatles fan. And I was very excited to talk to you about your show that you're doing the songs of Lennon McCartney to have Darren COVID So who's your favorite Lennon or McCartney? Oh, it's a controversial one, isn't it? Funnily enough when we do the show, so Darren, and I, you know, we don't it's like anything that I've done in the past. I never tried to mimic anyone. I just tried to pay homage to him. I just liked them. And I just sing their songs. That's really what it is. Yeah, I put me off when we do the show. I seem to do a lot more of the Lennon songs than I do the McCartney songs. Even though if I'm being totally honest, McCartney is my favorite. Yeah, candy is my favorite G and also your voice to you. You've got their higher voice which is sort of like older thought you'd do more of those high harmonies that Paul does. I do I do a lot of the when we perform together Darren and I, I'll take on the Paul McCartney harmonies a lot of the time but when we the individual songs, I seem to always end up on the Lenin songs. So just a just a wetlands. The way we do the show. We play guitar, but I also play the piano and I think you know, Lennon has some beautiful piano songs. So I think that's why I kind of landed there. Yeah, yeah, it's, I don't know, I was listening to some stuff this morning because I've got like, got them on my USB in the car. And it always blows my mind how they created so much and so such diversity and such experimentation but there are only active for 10 years together. You just think how how can you do all of that as a band in 10 years like that just blows my mind. It is it Amazing thing. But you know, it's an interesting thing you think of when you're in a band situation. It's so insular. It's your own little world. And if the band work really well together, I think back about when we had our family band, my two brothers, my sister myself, that was probably one of the most creative times I ever had was when I was writing nonstop, obviously not right, not writing classic like The Beatles, but the influence of being around people like that, and being around you know, other musicians who want the same thing. So when when you're driving each other to come up with great ideas. It's amazing how much actually happens. So each other and bouncing off each other and maybe competing with each other. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's an amazing thing. But they were they were incredible. The bagels, they it wasn't even just what the creators what they created so young as well as their insight on life was amazing for people that were essentially just kids. Yeah, like, honestly, I just think of him and I just I can't fathom how they did what they did. And then to still go on, obviously, linens no longer with us. But you know, Paul, still making music now. It's just, it's amazing. But I wanted to ask you do you have a favorite album, or I was always the White Album, where I was, and the reason being for the White Album, my brother Paul had a tape cassette of The White Album. In our little tour van. Back when we were kids gigging around Ireland. It was all stuck in there. We listened to non stop it was just so I kind of fell on that album purely because it was the only album we had in the car. I just love it and I knew every single song backwards and forwards and but I do love all the other albums rather off Sergeant Pepper's the whole the Abbey Road. They're all they're all amazing albums. Yeah, I go like White Album and revolver are my top two. They're the two that I go back and forth between the love revolver, but then they sort of there's some stuff I just think, I don't want to say they lose me on some stuff. But I just think God, they must have been having a hell of a time when they recorded some of this stuff. There is some random songs not everything was called. A lot of stuff. I mean, early albums, I think of Uber soul, but maybe not that one. The one of the the early albums where the do more of the pop songs. This, this is really only what two or three really good songs and some of those albums are for me anywhere. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, yeah, like, was it with the Beatles, or one of those? I can see the cover of it for I can't think of what it is. But yeah, some of them you just think oh, no, I don't need to listen to this. And some of them sound so similar to it's that typical, like 12 bar blues like rock and roll sort of thing. That's just a no yeah, it was a was there was still experimenting with this sound. On the way through, yeah, but wow, they were amazing. I can't really criticize any of them. They were they were all kept with. God forbid, like Alison sits here and criticizes the betas. No, we're not gonna take no, we're not gonna do that. They knew what they were doing. Yeah, that's pretty special so one of the topics I like to talk to all my mom guest on the show, is topic of mum guilt, which we sort of say is like, you know, mums feel bad if they're not doing things for their kids or with their kids. And it's difficult to take that step away and, and do something for yourself. And I've had dads that I've chatted with on the show, it's not the same sort of thing. It's, I think, because the mother is, you know, it's ingrained in your DNA, I guess, because you, you birth for children, but I wondered if you had any thoughts on sort of yourself and I don't want to say dad guilt because I don't think it's a great term. But do you ever sort of feel that pull between wanting to be home but you know, you're doing what you love and in your career and doing whatever it? Is that something that goes on for you? Oh, absolutely. No, no, no question. I find every day is a balancing act like every single day. So it's not even just being on the road touring or anything like that. Even on a day to day basis. There's things that I would love to be doing things that I think I should be doing. But there's a lot of things that the kids need me to do as well. There's things that I need to be there for them with and it could be simple thing six months In simple things, it could be things like homework, or it could be helping them with something, it could be just listening to them. On the flip side, it could be, you know, really spending quality time with them. And you do. I think there's a point that comes in as a parent where you those sacrifices are necessary, you have to make them that it's necessary. But it's again, trying to find the balance, trying to find some way that allows you to give them as much as you can possibly give them but still be yourself and still stay intact in who you are. Because if you start losing who you are in the process, then they're not getting the full benefits of the parent that they could have. That sounds weird, but this just makes total sense. Because that's something that a lot of moms talk about, you'd feel like you literally lose yourself, because you've got to give so much to these other people. There's little, there's little people that can't do things for themselves, and they need so much support. And then your your identity literally sort of dissolves for a period of time. So yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And sometimes your your sense of humor can disappear and things like that. And you never want that to go away. As a parent, we all fall into that role of a it's our job to guide our kids and to discipline our kids and to be the responsible person for the kids. But the kids also need that sense of humor that you have or that that childishness that you have yourself because we all still have that in us as well. Kids need that as well, then kids love that. And only we're being ourselves, do we expose the kids to those sorts of sides of our personalities? And you know, and that is, that is where the balance has to be right? You got to try and find a way to always still be you be the person that you've always been, but also been the responsible parent at the same time. Yeah, it's just a constant juggle, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it changes nonstop. And yes, older. It's new problems, and it's new things that you got to deal with. And it doesn't get any easier. Just yeah, it gets different that CD, isn't it? Yeah. With the that's what I'm finding with my to like, with the age gap. I feel like I'm literally in two different worlds at one time, just depending on which child I'm talking to you. It's just, you know, and I guess you'd be saying, you know, 11 and 17. There's a big, big gap of life in there, isn't there? Absolutely different, different needs different, different things happening in their life? He very much she's just a young, she's 11. You know, and a lot of the things that she'll talk to me about, even though she seems sometimes I think she's a 20 year old, but yeah, but still, you know, she still has that useful way about her work. Job is on the flip side, just got his driving license to contend with, that's a whole new world that we're about to step into. Yeah, it is a new world, isn't it? Yeah. I've already told my husband that I'm not having anything to do with teaching the boys how to drive that can be his job because they just I don't think I would cope very well. No, it is nerve racking. Yeah, you know. Anyway, I'm so happy he got his license. But then on the flip side, I was only talking about earlier on this morning. The worry set in the second Oh no. Now they're driving on the road no parent around and that becomes a whole other worry. Anyway, so it works. Yes. You've just got to hope that you've instilled in them you know, the best you can to take care of themselves and others and making those good decisions and yeah, you can't you can't keep them locked up forever. So no, you can I mean back in the old days of 17 they were working at home yeah, that's so true. Yeah, absolutely no, you're just want to get the colors you borrow something the books got some big shows coming up. I I'm doing the orchestra shows. We just yeah, we just we just want to we did want to Melbourne last weekend and later on the air we're in Sydney and a camera so it's a fork so 35 people on stage with me so it's a massive massive show. So they're the big ones but I've lots of other shows coming up and and obviously the book and all the rest of there's a lot going on over the next while. Yeah. Hopefully people keep on coming to the shows and then join them. Oh, that's exciting. Now Good on you. Do you do private will you Bri The Mind if I sit here down by your graveside and rest for a while in the wound summers I've been walking no Dan, I'm nearly done. See so much for coming on Damian has been such a pleasure to chat to you and thank you for sharing all your thoughts and all the the ups and downs and ins and outs of being a dad and being a creative that yeah, thanks again. Not a problem. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Bye. takes 20 to say thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes

Breanna Churchill US author and educator S4 Ep96 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Breanna Churchill who is an educator, author and mother of 2 boys from Illinois USA. Initially Breanna thought she was going to be in the performing arts area, or journalism, however her desire to serve was overwhelming and she went into the field of early childhood education. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Early Childhood with a concentration in Child and Family Services. Her professional experience includes working as a teacher, child-care director, tutor, and family/community service worker. Breanna is now a full-time home educator, Sunday school teacher, author of children's books and founder of The Brown Bear Book Club. The club empowers parents/guardians and educators with book ideas, activities, tools and tips for young children. Parents/guardians and educators can stay connected with her latest book releases and early childhood resources, One of Breanna's missions in life is to empower, educate, encourage, and inspire parents and guardians and educators of young children. Breanna - instagram / website / youtube Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another edition of the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you for whatever you're listening all around the world. This week, my guest is Brianna Churchill. Brianna is an educator and author and a mother of two boys from Illinois in the USA. Initially, Brianna thought she was going to be in the performing arts area or journalism. However her desire to serve was overwhelming. And she went into the field of early childhood education. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in early childhood with a concentration in Child and Family Services. Her professional experience includes working as a teacher, a childcare director, a tutor and a family community service worker. Breanna is now a full time home educator, Sunday school teacher, and she's an author. She's also the founder of the brown bear book club. The club empowers parents and guardians and educators with book ideas, activities and tools and tips for young children. caregivers can stay connected with her latest book releases and early childhood resources through the club. One of Brianna's missions in life is to empower, educate, encourage, and inspire parents and guardians and educators of young children. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much Brianna, for coming on. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. So glad to be here. Thank you. Oh, no, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you in America. So my family and I we live in Illinois, in the Midwest of the United States. And we were just chatting before that it's it's quite nice. The weather there at the moment about you're saying like 80s Fahrenheit, so about 26 degrees in the Celsius. Yes, very nice here right now. I'm a bit jealous. I was just just saying I just been away in Queensland for a week in the sunshine every day swimming, swimming in the ocean swimming in the pool and just, I don't know, just the best and then come back here where it's today. It's 13 Celsius. So I'm just gonna look at what that is for you guys in the Fahrenheit. Yes, we're interested to see what that conversion is. About 55 Just a little cool. Yeah, I mean, we don't get like we don't get snow here. So it's not this is probably the coldest maybe 10 to 13 in winter during the day. Uh huh. But it just it just seems to last so long like it'll this will be like us now till probably October maybe September October and I just feel like half the years just like yes. I totally, totally understand I can only imagine. But no, nevermind is worse things in the world. So I should really shouldn't complain about weather. But when I used to live in Chicago, it would get below zero negative 17. Oh, yes. Free say yeah, yes. Oh my gosh. That's not that's still complaining. Yeah. Yes. So cold. You can feel the frost on your face. Oh, man. Yes. That's a whole new one. Tea All right, so now tell me about what you do. I know that you're an author. And you also run the brown bear Book Club, which is pretty cool. Share with us. Yeah. What you too? Yes. So I'm the founder of the brown bear Book Club, which is all about empowering parents and educators with resources, books and resources for young children. And through the brown bear book club, I have a YouTube channel I, I write children's books, I design, adult notebooks and journals. Because as we know, as parents and educators, we need our tools to keep us refreshed. So we can be ready for the little ones. Yeah. And yes, so your background, I was reading your you're trained as an early childhood, or I guess, early childhood educator, that's what my words over here in Australia. Yeah, it is. Yes. If you've always been interested in in children in that those early years of learning? Yes, I would definitely say I've always been interested in creating fun things with children. So I would I'm very much so hands on. Educator and so music and art, and I love the messy painting. I love creating musical instruments with recycled materials. And so I've always enjoyed. Even as a child, I was very just love writing love. Just engaging in just fun sensory activities outside. And so now, as an educator, I would say the interesting thing, though, when I was in high school, I honestly thought I was gonna go to a performing arts school. Because my passion was really in acting and journalism. But when I got to college, I do have a passion to serve and, and help children as well. And so I kind of use the creativity of being in drama club and writing. I've always I've been writing probably since I was eight years old. And I put all those things and I tried to create a fun learning environment for children and my children as well. Yeah, I love that. I'm, I'm trained as an early childhood educator to, and probably not to the same level as you. But I work in a kindergarten at the moment, like the preschool. And I can totally relate to what you're saying. Because, like, I find that my experience in performance and singing and just having that ability to share yourself really vulnerably I think is really important when you're with kids. There's a lot of yes, a lot of people I've met over the years, they get really nervous about singing in front of kids. And it's like, you don't have to put on a performance for kids. You're literally just sharing your voice. And the kids don't care what you sound like they just want you to be involved. So I sort of I can I can totally relate to what you're saying. Because I feel like kids, they see right through you if you've if you're have got a persona that's not genuine or you know, you're trying to pretend you're someone else, like you're not being true to yourself that kids will see right through you. So I feel like having that confidence in knowing yourself and feeling comfortable in your own skin, which I think comes from being a performer as well. It just works so well with your kids. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. So you have two children of your own, how old are your boys? So my oldest is four and my youngest is two. So just two boys. So we are full of lots of adventure over here. Oh, I bet. Yeah. So you will be actually starting kindergarten in the fall. Oh will be. Yeah. I love it. So do you find since you've had huge Children that you've got like a whole new level of like inspiration when it comes to what you're creating for, you know, the kids that you're serving? Absolutely, especially with children's books, all of my children's books have been inspired by my children. And so they definitely have a huge influence. And then the other half is the after becoming a mom, I wanted to be experiences that I gained classroom, and in the field of early childhood, I wanted to still share that. So that's why the brown bear book club came is using the education experience to share that with others. And then I feel like once I became a mom, I also gained another level of experience, and being able to relate with parents of young children from a parenting perspective. And so I take all that into consideration when I write children's books or any type of resource for families or educators. Hmm. Yeah, I think that's really important because some some books that you read, and I'm sure you've come across them in the past to some books you read, you can just tell, there hasn't been a lot of consideration given to, I don't know, a lot of things that you know, the person that's got to read this book, you know, they've got to, you know, get something out of it, too. And actually, I was speaking to some ladies yesterday, I was interviewing for the the episode that will come out this week, that they've written a children's book, but it's actually aimed at mothers. So you know, there's so beginning in you know, different layers of content and things to make you think. And then things that are spark conversations and that sort of stuff. So yeah, there's it's a whole, it's, it's a lot more complicated than it sounds, isn't it? Really when you think, yes, writing book kids, but there's so much goes into it? Yes. Yes. It's so many components to think about, you know, and actually, with my newest book, The little bird who wanted to fly it was my four year old who even helped me come up with the title. Yeah. Just because I mean, that's to the book is designed for young children. And I think, yeah, definitely, you want to make sure you are targeting them in a way that they can stay engaged? Oh, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. So what sort of themes do you like to explore within your books. So some of the topics that I like to explore is I try to, I always try to, when I write children's books, I always try to, number one, make sure that it's captivating. So the element of literacy, whether it's kept captivating language, whether it's colorful illustration, some of the concepts, as I'm thinking about my latest book, is life lessons. So teaching children, you know, not to give up the first time you try to be patient to persevere the challenges. But then I also tried to include, you know, interactive moments where children can move and they can dance, and there's like, the birds are singing. And so I tried to have a mix of, you know, life lessons, especially in the last book that I wrote, mixed with movement. My second book had a lot of onomatopoeia, so lots of like, expressive words, wash, and bang, and boom, and we were actually I've created my own song. So that went to my second book. And so, yeah, I'm a I'm a musical educator, so everything has a song. I sing all the time as a mommy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I noticed in one of the photos that you sent me that when you're reading the book, and it's almost like you're performing the book, you know, you're standing up, you've got your props, you know, it's a nice experience for the kids. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, I tried to captivate and engage children, we get up, we dance, we move I have my little bird puppet. And so I think, especially with young children is super important. Absolutely. So I find that, you know, depending on the age or the experience of a child in a certain setting, it's really hard for kids to sit down and concentrate for long periods of time. And, like you like what you're talking about is amazing. And you're not only like in Australian and you've probably got you guys have it there too. But in Australia, we have all these particular things that you have to teach, you know, like curriculum based stuff so you can you can relate to see, you're covering like your movement expression and, and all that sort of stuff. So it's like, really good. Yes, yes, I try. And I think When I'm writing, I try to think about well, as a teacher and as a parent, what are some concepts that I want to put in there along with the story. And so, like the latest one, it has math, it has color recognition, it has, you know, movement, music, all the different things, anything, I can try to encompass the full package to make it easier. So yeah, that's brilliant. I love that I'm gonna have to get hold of some of your books being here. I love it. It's just like you said it. It's, it's literally you're getting all of that. All of that education, all of that knowledge and value for children into one book. And they haven't even noticed you doing it to like, they just, you know, now. It's really easy, creative ways. Yeah. It's funny. On a completely side note, my seven year old had to come with me to work the other day. And he was playing and he said, Ah, he said, it's at kindy it's different to school. They don't teach you anything. And I said, Oh, yeah, I said, you don't realize that you're learning like because you're learning through class and right away this is so important. So it took talking about when you became a mum, did you find your transition to motherhood? I don't want to say it was simple because I don't think it's ever simple. But how did you find like the change in your identity and and how you saw yourself sort of adjusted when you became a mum? What a question. Um, I feel like when I became a mom, a mother, I felt like I wanted to be present. And so that so I went from teaching full time to my last my last school year, I knew that I always wanted to be home with my kids after we had children. And so I was actually I think I was very excited to be a mom. But then, once motherhood came, I realized that it was harder than I thought. And I found myself kind of hard on myself. Because being in the early childhood field, you think about all the different things that you know, you want to expose your, your child to, and so far is my identity. I felt like I just wanted to be a I just wanted to be this great educator, mom, like I wanted to do all the things. And the idea of well, after I became a mom, maybe within later within that year, I said, Well, I want to share these activities that I'm doing with my baby. I want to share these activities with the world. And shortly after. It wasn't the brown bear book club, it actually started as our home our classroom. Yeah. And I would just share activities, whatever music or art activities we were doing. And eventually, when my son was a young toddler, we were trying to learn the alphabet. And that's when the ABC my first ABC transportation book, that was my first book, and that was born. But as far as my identity overall, I think I was just in a place of, I just want to be this great mom that educates her children. And but I think it it was lots of twists and turns and it was harder than I thought. Yeah. I often joke with people that childcare educators, early childhood educators have the worst behaved children. And I'm not saying I'm not making preservatives. It's funny, like, you know how to talk in a particular way to kids, and you do it all day long. Yeah. And then you talk to your kids like that, and they they don't listen to you. It's actually joking with the mom last night on the way after we finished work, because I couldn't get my son to open the gate. He was just being so silly. He just wanted to shut the gate, you know? And I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know. It just reminded me that when you were talking about how you want to give the kids so much, and it's like, I don't know, do you feel like oh, you've got nothing left for because you give it to? No, that is so true. I mean, and I'm all about apologizing even such hildren you know, even to my children, and I feel like I mess up every day. And I'm just like, I'm not perfect. And I apologize. And but you know, I think children need to see that because then they learn what from us and my son. Now he's heard me say, Will you forgive me? Sometimes he when he makes mistakes, he says, Mommy, do you forgive me? And I'm like, oh, so yeah, yeah, it can definitely be difficult at times. But it's so worth it's such an adventurous journey. Motherhood? Absolutely. Yes. And all the twists and turns and. So at the moment, is this something that you're you're spending all your gleichen basically a full time, sort of days on? Or you're doing some classroom teaching? Or how's it sort of look for you? Well, right now. So as an author, and an educator with a brown bear with my business at Brown Bear book club, I get up early mornings. So usually, I'm up before, up by between 430 and 5am. So I start Yeah. So I usually start my morning, I started my morning usually have a little bit of a quiet time. And then after I have some quiet time, I will. Sometimes I'll exercise just kind of depends. And then after that, I'll work for a few hours. And then usually my kids are up somewhere around 839 o'clock, and then I homeschool. So we start with, you know, our activities. And then I'll work again in the afternoon for just a couple of hours. So part time. Yeah, very flexible. This is kind of how I wanted it to be. That's lovely, isn't it, that you've got that and you've got your children with you. And you're also sharing, you know, that love that you have the passion? How awesome? Do you ever like pinch yourself like, This is amazing. My life is so good. Ah, I don't know, if I pinch myself. I think I'm always I think for me, one thing I'm learning about motherhood and being an author and an educator is I'm kind of just like children develop in each phase. I feel like I'm also developing as a mom. And so I find myself rearranging my schedule, based off of their development. And so I think that's what's been helpful, and I'm still learning, I'm learning every day. And that's the thing that children like, you know, obviously, you know, they they change so quickly, you know, they get into a video phase, and then all of a sudden, that's gone and something else is happening. So yeah, but yeah, just it's like a skill really? Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that, in addition to, you know, doing your Homeschooling with your boys, you're obviously using your creativity in that element, but do you find it, it's really important that you have something for yourself? You know, that's, honestly, it's just yours because obviously sharing it with others, is something that's yours is yours, you know? Yes, I think it's important. Honestly, I think that creativity is part of keeping a healthy mental health as a parent, as a mother, especially those who are creatives. Like if you are a creative mom, doing something creative is part of your self care. You know, it's something that fuels you it refreshes you. And so for me, like what I journal almost every day, so if I'm not writing a children's book, I'm journaling or I'm reading or music, singing or something, because I feel like that's as a mom that I feel like I thrive off creativity. I used to make jewelry, too, but I had to make a decision, either. Continue making sure We are focused on my career as an author and right now that's kind of where I'm focusing on right now. But, um, yeah, so I think it's, it fuels me as a mom, you know, refreshes me to be to have that outlet of okay, I'm just gonna write for a little while and it's so calming, it's soothing. And I love writing. Yeah. And designing to like when I designed the journals. Just yeah, it's just like, yeah, so much fun. I could absolutely relate to that. It's like, you're literally it feels like you just get this fresh energy and whatever, whatever you were doing out there. sort of disappears. And then you can get back like super refreshed and yes, you can handle anything. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes. You talked about one of your boys helps you come up with the title for the book of Hana. They sort of feel I'm gonna say how they feel about it. But is it exciting for them? Do you think that they can see that their mom is creating these things? You know? So I think they just now realized that I'm an author. Because prior to like, my first two books, I didn't even tell them because I wanted, I wanted to see if my book was going to actually captivate them. It wasn't going to be a book that they liked, regardless if they knew that I was the author behind it. With this last one, because I'm doing more bookstores and breeding everywhere, they know, like, okay, my oldest particularly he knows that. I'm writing books, and I'm an author. And he oftentimes I bounce ideas off of him. Yeah. So but, but no, I think right now, they're still so young. I don't think that they really, totally understand the fullness and, and that's fine with me. I'm not a person that wants to be like, Hey, I'm, I'm an author, or, you know, I'm, I'm kind of fine with, you know, being behind the scenes. And yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, I haven't a lady on an author think it was last year. And when her son realized that she was writing books, he was like, telling everybody on my mom write this book, take it. My mom can come and read a book to you at school. We're like, so proud. So beautiful. I love I think it's important for children to see their mums do from you know, mothering them? Yes. Yes. And I and I, one of the things that I'm hoping to do, especially as my children get older, is invite them more into the process of like, especially like when I'm doing the story times, if they want to help me, you know, do something pass out stickers to the kids or, you know, well, in the stories, they're usually part there, they know how the story ends. So they're very interactive. They come to the storytimes. But it's, it's refreshing because it's a career that I feel like I can do with my kids because it is picture books right now. So yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. So one of the things I like to chat to my moms about on the show is this concept of mom guilt or mommy guilt or however you want to term it. Is that something that you've got some thoughts on? Is that something you've you feel or don't feel or? Yeah, what do you think about that? I feel I think in the early stages, I felt it a little bit more. Mom guilt, especially if I felt like I didn't get everything done that day, like in the house. Like if things were just kind of Yeah, No, gotta go. But the house is a wreck. Not done, but I gotta go to writers group tonight or, or if I feel like I wasn't as engaged with my kids that day. Sometimes, sometimes that can make me feel like mom heal. But here lately, especially after having my second child, I realized that when I do step away, like when I go to writers group or if I have a book interview that my kids can't come to. I have, I've learned to be okay with it. Because I'm like, I was with them. We had quality time, I will be back. I'm only gone for an hour. I'm usually most interviews are don't take very long. And so I tell myself, my children are safe, they're fine. And I don't feel guilty because I know that, well, I'm not gone every day. It's not like I'm, you know, I purposely chose to be an author so I can control my, you know, my schedule, you know, even as an educator, I'm not gone all the time. I think that if I had a more demanding career where I'm gone all the time, then I think it would be harder for me to leave. But I think because right now everything is pretty flexible. I don't feel as bad No, I don't feel bad at all anymore. Really. Because I feel like I yeah, I've given you know, mommy will be back, I'll be back in an hour. And I always tell them that I'll be back. Like when I have writer's group out, I'm going to write this group back here, or Mommy has an interview with someone, I'll be back in there with their dad, my husband is very hands on. And they love their daddy, and I don't leave them with anybody. So it's usually daddy or their aunts. And they usually have a blast with them. And that also helps me feel great knowing that they're in good hands. And you know, yeah, yeah, no, that's good to hear. I think mom guilt, just this thing that I didn't know, they could suck us down if we let it. But you know, yes, it can. It can. But we have to give ourselves grace. You have to give yourself grace to know that. When I it's kind of like when you go to create something, whether you're an artist, and you're painting or writing music, me writing stories or journaling. Knowing that when I leave and when I come back, I'm going to be refreshed and ready to be better for them. So it's not like, I'm leaving, and then I come back and I'm like, Alright, um, you know, yeah, but I think it I think when you do something that you love, and I even believe when you're doing the thing that God has called you to when you do it, you come back refreshed and refueled as opposed to you know, I'm not to say you don't feel tired, but you know, and you're in a better mood as opposed to a bad mood. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. It Like It fills you up and it lights you up so that yeah, lights you up. Yeah, yeah. So you said earlier bet that, you know you're working full time, but you knew that you wanted to be there with your kids, like when you had kids? Is that was that like a role modeling thing that you experienced? Or have seen other people do? Or like in your own family, when you were growing up? That made you sort of want to say, No, No, quite the opposite. I grew up. My mother was a single mom. And so she worked a lot. You know, she was working a lot she was going to school and so she did the best she could with being being present with my with me and my brother. So for me, it was the fact that my mom was gone a lot. And I was like, Well, I appreciate the fact that I got to learn the importance of hard work and being professional and all the things career wise. But I knew that when I had children, I wanted to be able to be there. You know, I wanted to be present and so that was actually an inner desire that I had as a before motherhood, I'm like, I want to be the I want to I want to be that mom you know they can make the games and be there for T ball practice and, and so for me that was my desire because I grew up in the opposite situation. My mom did work a lot. And I didn't get a chance. But But I think even with parents who work a lot, because I'm sure maybe some of the listeners here, I think that you know, there's still grace because I feel like when you are with your kids, it's not always the quantity of time. It's the quality. So, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And it's sometimes, you know, your circumstances don't allow you to necessarily do yes, you know, you do things that you really want to do. So, yeah, like you said, you do the best that you can with what you've got at home. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to ask, too, I've noticed here in Australia that homeschooling is becoming a lot more popular. And I don't know if that's because of COVID, like when we had all the shutdowns, and everyone got used to having their kids home at school. But it's pretty popular over there, isn't it? It's a it's a real thing, isn't it? I definitely think it's a growing trend, I guess you can say, I definitely did not know that I was going to be homeschooling, this was kind of something after having our children. Then this was pre pandemic. It was kind of like, we just the church that we go to a lot of the women there were already homeschooling, and I just kind of got exposed through the community. And people start telling me about it. And I'm like, Oh, I never thought you know, I always knew that I wanted my children to go to, you know, either a private school or a Christian school, but I didn't know that I would be homeschooling. So honestly, it really came through the influence of my community, as I was connecting with other moms and families. And I'm like, okay, yeah. And then also, as an educator, and as you know, Allison, I don't know what it's like in Australia, but in the in the Illinois. Um, yeah, the education system is, you know, it's some school districts are better than others. And so I think that was also a driving force, knowing that I'm not satisfied with what I'm seeing, and in the turn, and what's going on in my current, the education system here, but there are great teachers, I do want to, I know that was a big bomb, I just dropped some great teachers. There are some wonderful teachers, my friend actually teaches kindergarten and she's amazing and love her. I still teach on Sundays, and I tutor and a commute a small group learning community. But yeah, yeah, I feel like sometimes, like the overall system, and I can think of this in a number of things like over here, the healthcare system is a bit screwed and different things. But within that, there's always really good people who are just trying their best, you know, under really difficult circumstances so I can understand what you say about the teachers. Yes, and seriously, teachers have to be the most underpaid and underappreciated group of people. I feel like for what teachers do is seriously there needs to be more recognition and yeah, more monetary recognition for them. Yes, more recognition. That is so true. I don't know in Australia. Do you guys have Teacher Appreciation Week? Is that happening this week for you guys? No, I don't I think we only get a day actually. And I'm not even sure. Okay. Teacher Appreciation Week? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was actually thinking when I saw when, when Joe Biden became the president and his wife was a teacher. For many, many years, I thought, Oh, this is good. You know, having someone up there that gets what it's like to be on the ground in the rooms, you know, dealing with it day to day? Yes. So I don't know if that's been a positive or not that. Well, honestly. You know, I I think it's so many things. I think, you know, it depends on the district that you're in. I think there's a lot of great resources out there. But I think we also have a lot of children that are coming in from different backgrounds that some teachers, a lot of teachers are not prepared for, for what what types of stuff you might be dealing with. And so I think that I mean, I don't know if you've heard but in the US teacher shortage in certain in some states is worse than others people are quitting the fields. overworked, overwhelmed and underpaid. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a thing here particular year in the early childhood, that's the biggest thing. We can't get childcare workers. That is the biggest thing at the moment. Yeah. And it's just the same thing. They're just totally overworked and realistic hours and expectations. And the pay is just not reflective of the amount of effort that you're putting in. And you're literally raising people's children, you know, you're educating last generation, and I feel like it's absolutely undervalued. I don't know. Yes. start ranting. Yes, no, I agree with you. It is undervalued. I think the teachers pay should be fair with doctors and physicians pays if not higher, because you are educating the next doctors, the next lawyers, the next judges, the next teachers, the next musicians and artists you are putting into all of that, and it's definitely undervalued. But I think parents during the pandemic, I think a lot of parents appreciate teachers a lot more than what they did. Yeah. When they can say what? Yeah, let me know what they do like a tiny, tiny snapshot of what they do. Yeah, yeah, I actually had this conversation with a fellow educator, a couple of years ago, when all this pandemic stuff was happening. And we had over here, I'm not, you guys probably had something similar, where there were particular, like, workers who were considered essential, so you could still go out and work. But then there was others that had to quarantine. And, of course, you know, teachers educators, were essential. So we were out there looking at this was when I was in childcare. And I said to, I said to this fellow educator, like, we should be the highest paid people in the on the globe right now. Because if, if yes, if these people don't have anyone to look after their children, they can't go out. And you know, be a doctor, be a lawyer, be a policeman, you know, politicians running the country who's looking after the children, you know, just blew my mind to think, like, we are so essential, if you didn't have us would happen. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Parents would have to switch careers, people would have to take their children to work. I mean, there would be without teachers. Yeah, it would not be good for a lot of families. Absolutely. I mean, imagine the amount of people that probably the mums, that wouldn't be able to, you know, pursue their dreams and their careers and, and, and also within that adding, you know, contributing to society and it would become it would take a step backwards. Like that would be like, yes, tremendously damaging. So there if anyone says, that can make any changes. Yes, that's right. That's so right. That is so right. Now, within you know, I'm saying all this stuff, but it is such a it's an incredibly rewarding field. It is it is the bed really, as thing I've ever done, you know, took me till I was nearly before I discovered this, I'm not 40 I would have been 35 Maybe discovered this whole this whole new field journey. Oh, it was amazed. Yeah. And like, why didn't I discovered this when I was, you know, out of school? I think I had to go through so many things and experience all these other things to get me to where I wanted to be. Ya know, it's it's so amazing. Yeah. Not surprising, because some of the best teachers are artists. Yeah, the best teachers are creatives people who are creative. Yeah, absolutely. Ya know, it's, especially for the early childhood years. It's just so fun. I mean, it's a lot of work. Don't get me wrong, but it's so fun. Like, I I work Wednesday, Thursday, Fridays, and I find myself on Mondays and Tuesdays thinking think about the kids are what are they up to today? And what are they going to tell me? When I see them? You know, you get really you make these beautiful connections and build these relationships with the kids and it's like, Oh, I wonder what they do? Coming up in the future tell me have you got any more books in your in the works that have? I have so right. Yeah, right now I'm in a stage so right now I'm still marked up by like this book, The Little Bird one aniseh Fly, but I am drafting up a few ideas. And so I'm in the drafting brainstorming stage of it. I have a couple of stories, a few ideas that are in the brainstorming phase I, one thing I try not to do is rough the creative process. I try to I have, I have quite a few stories that I've just written and said, I don't know. And I mean, even my last this book that's out right now, I wrote it over a year ago, and I didn't touch it for a while. And it was actually a fellow educator, one of my friends and she's like, children meet this book, you need to pick that back up. And, but sometimes I just write and I'll put it aside, and I do pray about it. And I talked to friends and I talked to my children. I'm like, What do you think about this idea? And so I don't rush it. But yes, there will be more more books. I do have a blog on my website that I've been writing more on. And I do have a YouTube channel. So I try to stay engaged with the early childhood community, especially parents and educators. So I try to keep those keep it going all year round. And yeah, there'll be more books and journals as well. So awesome. So what is the best way for people to find you? What's your website. So the best way is WWE dot Brown Bear book club.com. And I always encourage parents and educators to join the club, it's totally free. And when you join the club that just keeps you in the loop of I send out early childhood activities, book ideas, encouragement, freebies, and giveaways. And so and then any book update so as I began to work on next book, or as I'm still putting up book, marketing wise, I include people part of that journey as well. But then I also want to give back so I try to you know, whatever, like right now it's May so I just talked about teachers appreciation, freebies, and Mother's Day, different things like that. And so yep, that's how people and then the brown bear book club. Pretty much on any social media, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all that you can the brown bear book club, and you can find me there too. Awesome. I'll put all the links in the show notes for people to click away and check out what thank you so much for coming on today. Brianna. It has been so lovely to chat with you. I really enjoyed it. Yes. Oh, thank you, Alison. I'm so I'm so glad to meet you as well. This has really been awesome. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Ayla Simone Australian fiction author S3 Ep85 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Ayla Simone is my guest this week, Ayla is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter and a mum of 2 from Brisbane , QLD, Australia. Ayla grew up writing, but like many creatives, couldn't see how writing was going to be full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. She began writing her debut novel Marigold Milk when her her son was a baby, he was a contact napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap, using her phone to write. Marigold Milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and trans-formative time of Mariella Gold’s life. Grief-stricken by the loss of a child, Mariella loses her floristry business and applies for a nannying position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping care for the baby of widowed local doctor, Dr Jamie North. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, but Mariella is surprised to even find joy and purpose with Jamie and his son, in a way she couldn’t have expected. Ayla has 2 more books in the works and her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us; with a particular focus on women and motherhood. **This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and wet nursing** Ayla - instgram / book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered, while trying to be a mum and continue to create your hair themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you are all around the world. My guest today is ala Simone. ALA is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter from Brisbane in Queensland, and she's a mom of two. I grew up writing but like many creatives couldn't see her writing was going to be a full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. I began writing her debut novel marigold milk when her son was a baby. He was a contact Napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap using her fine marigold milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and transformative time have Mariela gold's life. grief stricken by the loss of a child, Mariela loses her floristry business and applies for a nanny position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping to care for the baby of a widowed local doctor. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, and she is surprised to find joy and purpose with the new doctor and his son. In a way she could never have expected. Ayla has two more books in the works. And her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us, and a particular focus on women and motherhood. This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and witnessing. Hi, Isla, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. So we're about to you leaving. I'm in Brisbane in the suburbs. Lovely. Yeah. My sister spent a bit of time up in Brisbane few years ago, and we went to visit it the first time I'd ever been up there. I just loved it. It reminded me of like, be like Adelaide with it sort of easygoing, but the weather being a lot better. I just found everyone was so friendly. And it's just a really lovely place. It is quite like a small town. Most of my family's in Melbourne. So going to Melbourne. It's like wow, this is a big city. Brisbane, you probably feel similar seems Adelaide. It's more laid back. Yeah. Very hot out here though. Yeah. Now and because you guys don't have daylight savings. Do you know? Yeah, because that was something I noticed when I was up there. How it got early. So like got bright and light so early. And it was just that okay, we're up. Yeah. On the flip side, you go to some of these daylight savings and the kids don't want to go to sleep until like nine or 10 o'clock because it's bright. Yes. That's that's us at the moment. It's like half past eight. Oh, maybe even caught nine before it gets dark. So they're just like, but it's too late outside. We don't know like I've got nothing left. You have to do it. Yeah, that was literally my last night because the bubblegum back to school today. Down here. So last night, the day please just go to sleep. I see a great day for you that it's a wonderful day is such a nice day. It's just nice to have done the school drop off and then just go do something that doesn't involve looking after other people. And the silence when you leave them and it's like I don't have to talk to anyone for a little while. Yes. Gosh, yeah, you take it for granted. You really do. Yeah, yeah. You're an author, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into writing? Is it something that you've always done? Like as a kid growing up? Yeah, writing has always sort of been my thing, I guess I remember in primary school, going to little writing camps. And in high school, I was in, you know, the kind of extension English writing thing. And that was my thing. Like, I could not do math to save my life at all. Writing has been, it's like, probably close. Next, I was like, Oh, I can do this. Yeah, and I've always loved writing, I always wanted to write a book. Yeah, and I've just finally now done it, I think some probably other people in the arts can relate to this, you have an interest in something creative. And growing up, there's a lot of noise around, okay, but you've got to kind of make that a job where you can actually make a living, you know, for the kind of consumer society you can't, you know, you can't cut off into the woods and write a book. Like, that's not what you're going to do. So yeah, I've done marketing and content creation and copywriting. So I guess that's how I kind of made it a job. And then, yeah, recently got to what I wanted to do originally, which is writing a book, congratulations. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, that that theme of, of sort of putting your passion on the back burner, or like, in your case, in many others, to finding a way to sort of slightly incorporate that into their, like, paid job. It's such a common theme, just, you know, parents will be like, oh, you know, how you're gonna pay the bills, you know, that's not a real job, all that sort of stuff. And then they find themselves coming back to it, you know, as an adult, because you just cannot you get to where we cannot not do it, you know, it's like, yeah, it just makes you do it. So, tell us about your book. Well, my food, I feel like this is a common theme with authors. Or it might just be me because I'm a shy author. But when someone asks, What's your book about? That's like the worst question. Oh, amazing. Like hard to condense? Yeah, probably. So in like internal. But basically, it's about a main character. And she's just lost a baby. And then she's lost her business, and her husband of 10 years has turned on her and become a really awful person in her life. So she's desperate to find a purpose. And she decides that she wants to donate her breast milk online after hearing about it from a friend. And then she meets with a widowed man who's just lost his wife. So he has a baby to feed, and he's desperate for help as well. And he asked her to fulfill the quite unusual position these days of being a witness for his baby. And the reason behind that is the baby has a lot of allergies, and he's really struggling, you know, to find something that will help his baby be healthy. So she's sort of propelled by her grief and wanting to escape her household situation, and she accepts it and joins his family. And she starts to find purpose and happiness again, but then sort of the truth of her own motherhood. And what has happened in her past starts to unravel slowly, she has to kind of face her demons and see if she can overcome them to find her own purpose in life again. Yeah, right. That's a really cool storyline, like, Yeah, that's really cool. I don't usual when I started writing it, I, it was kind of the whole point was, you know, I was at home with my baby nursing writing. I was just thinking, I've never read a book, really, where there's a character, even books that have mothers, there's not really a character that mentioned, you know, the breastfeeding the nursing or, you know, feeding the baby. It's not something that's mentioned that often and for me, at least, it's like a huge part of being a mum, like, I mean, no matter how you feed your baby, especially at the start, you're spending hours every day, like feeding your baby, whether it's a bottle, you're breastfeeding them to hear. So I sort of wanted to incorporate that and I started writing it as historical fiction, because, you know, witnesses that was an old time. Yeah, but then I think it was like 20,000 words, then I'll say is this isn't gonna really help Modern mothers like this is, you know, a historical story. But if I was to kind of juxtapose that with modern times, where it actually makes it something a little shocking to some people, I'm sure. I think it has more value for mothers to kind of read it in a modern setting. Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you sort of what you said. Yeah. And for those who don't know, a witness, basically is it's a mother who's lactating who feeds another mother's child, basically. Yeah. And in my story, I've been very careful to not not to say this. It's not just, I wouldn't even say it's the central theme of the story. And I think that was important. For me, for Mother's reading it, it's not the hero of the story is not that she breastfeeds a child. And it's definitely not the villain of the story. And it doesn't ruin anything for her. It's something very special. And that's highlighted. But yeah, it's not the be all end all, she has so many other facets to her other than that she's feeding a baby. But the fact that her client kind of needed her to do that to help him. But it also very much helped her because she was grieving the loss of a child. You know, if you lose a baby quite late, you may lactate. So this is what's happening to this character. And I think it's just been a huge comfort for her that she could use that milk. For your identity was important for you to keep that writing process going when you had your children. Yes, it definitely. I mean, I write quite a lot in my job. But to have that sort of also, hobby creative writing is so important. And I feel so much better. You know, I've had a bit of time to write, and usually, actually always my writing time, like, in bed with a baby on me writing on Google docs on my phone, how I wrote this book, the whole thing. So you know, it's just fit in somewhere. But then the rest of the afternoon is like, ah, you know, I've done something for myself. Yeah, it can be a better mother for it. Definitely. And I have a, I have a baby, but I also have a seven year old. So it's been pretty cool. telling her about the book and her seeing it and see like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a book. Like she's so excited. So that yeah, that is awesome. That is really cool. Do you sort of feel like it's important that, that your seven year old sees you as something else other than as a mother? You know, you're still you're still a person that does things in the world? Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's why it was even more surprising to her. I sort of said to her while I was writing it, like, oh, I mean, writing this story. I think I might actually get it published into a book. And it's that sort of an abstract idea or seminar or like, What do you mean? Like, you know, not Roald Dahl. You can't write a book. And then when it arrived nice, she showed her Yeah, cuz you're gonna face like, wow, my mom like does stuff other than look after us? Yeah. Yeah. Especially for a little girl. Like, I don't want her to think she'll have kids one day. And that's it, like hanging off your cowboy boots. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Other aspects to a woman obviously. Didn't know that. That's really cool. I love that. And I sort of feel like that with my sons. It's like, it's for them as they grow up to be able to respect a woman as other things apart from just having children. You know, like, I feel like there's, there's certainly a, you know, that misogynistic sort of element to society that, you know, like you said, you take a few breaks, you're done. Yeah, it's really important. Yeah, absolutely. So How old's your youngest? He's 16 months. So he actually a toddler is probably my last one. So it's me. He's a baby. Yeah, love. So when did you start writing when just when he was really, when he was really a baby? Both my kids have been contacted snafus. So, you know, stuck in bed for hours. And I think he was just a few months old me scrolling Facebook, whatever. It's like why why don't I do something that's actually going to benefit my mental health and you know, if I can turn into something my future So yeah, I just started writing the story and I just loved it and every naptime occasionally after bedtime, that's just what I've done. Yeah. That's awesome. So sorry, I didn't say the book's title. It's Marik old milk. So I'm guessing marigold is the main character. Her name is Mariela gold. Right? Yeah, that's very gold comes up because she had a floristry business that gets shut down. And one of the other characters says to her, Oh, like, Why didn't you call it you know, something like marry gold, because your name makes up Mary gold. And that's sort of a pivotal moment. And then after that, marigolds kind of pop up through the story as symbolism for how her story is unfolding. So yeah, let's go. How did you come up with the idea? Was that just something that came to you? Or are you like, are you really into flowers and flowers? And I love symbolism. So I think it didn't come quite organically. I wrote her in as a florist. I think I've always been fascinated by forestry. Like, it's just such a beautiful art to work in. Yeah. And then as kind of the marigold play on words came up, it all just started unfolding. And I've planned out my next few books, and they're both flower related as well. Sort of like the same, the next two books? I mean, I don't want you to give any secrets away. Are they an extension of marigold story? Are they just brand new characters? Well, I didn't want to write a sequel. I'm not sure why I just prefer a standalone story. And it is quite closed books. And when it finishes, it's kind of like, okay, this story is done nice and late, really tied up. But I have made the next few books have a slight overlap in characters. So there's sort of like a very sideline character in Marigold, milk. And then the next book is her story. So they sort of mentioned each other, which I think is a cute little tie in. But that I mean, the stories are not related at all. The next book is actually got nothing to do with motherhood, or babies or anything, which has actually been really fun. It's like, oh, this is really an escape. I'm writing like a 30 Something single spinster with a cat and like I'm on it. Anything. It's sort of like you're living in this universe, what could have happened? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. What's it like the process to get a book published? Well, I mean, it's different for everyone, there is the traditional publishing route, which I dabbled with. And then I think I read so much about it from other authors. I was just scared out of it. And it might be something I pursue in the future. But it's a very lengthy process, you've kind of got to find an agent. And then once you've got an agent, they contact the publishing houses and then even if you do get a deal, you usually have to wait like two or three years before your book is actually out there. Yeah, and I think because I spent just like day after day, hours and hours writing this book, when it was finished, I was like, No, I'm getting this out there. This on me anymore. I need to get it done so I can move on to the next thing. No, I ended up self publishing my book which has been really interesting and exciting thing. Yesterday it's amazing how accessible it is to publish a book now. Yeah, quite simple. This we have this topic that I love to talk about to all my guests and I put it in air quotes, the old mum guilt. What is your take on that? I do remember after I had my first baby, another mum made a throwaway comment something like Oh, yes, you'll you know, you'll have mom guilt. It's always they're always going to feel guilty, you know, doing anything, right. And I remember at the time, my baby was about six months old, and I was I really couldn't relate to what she was saying. Maybe just the naivety of it. You know, as kind of like, I know, I'm doing everything I can for this baby. I don't feel guilty. Everything's great. But sort of since I've had the second and it might be about you There's more of a juggle, because you know, especially with the age gap, I have this seven year old that wants to chat all day and make bracelets and little intricate things. And then I have this 16 month old boys just destroying everything. And I yeah, I have definitely found now a bit of mum guilt. This is like, there's not enough of you to go around at all. But I wouldn't say ever feel guilty about writing or doing things like that for myself. And it might be because it's so limited. Like, you know, I'm not going down to get a pedicure. And you know, I haven't much time. And that's my little bit of time that I do that. So I think I feel pretty good about it. Now good on Yeah, I love hearing those answers. And it's the sort of thing, everybody has a different take on it. And I think that's why I love talking about it, because I just love hearing, you know, the differences in the variances and yeah, I love that I had, I think I've had two guests that didn't even know what it was at all. And as the hell no, I can relate to that. They is sort of the age gap. You have to I've got seven years between my two. And they have their moments they they fight like cats and dogs sometimes. Yeah, they both have cute moments. They don't they? Ah, yeah. is lovely to watch it really? Yeah. I think it's nice having a child that's old enough to remember their sibling getting born and things like that. I reckon that's pretty cool is lovely. Although I don't know about your children, but my older child remembers being an only child. So she's sort of like, she brings me photos of us just my her dad and I and her together on holidays. She's like, so can we leave Leo somewhere? And like do that again? Probably not like his duty a little brother. Oh, God. That's hilarious. I love that. Yeah, that's good. I've never actually thought about that. I should ask I'll make a note to ask at least. Yeah. Yeah, it's good fun. So something else I'd like to talk about is sort of the cultural norms of, you know, the traditional roles of the mother and the father and who goes to work and who stays home? And what role modeling did you have about what a mother could look like when you were growing up? Didn't sort of inspired you to do what you're doing? Well, I would say my family unit when I was growing up is quite different to probably what my now family unit is in that it was very traditional. So my mum was basically home with us, I think, till I started primary school. So we very much had, like the mother at home and the dad, you know, that went to work. And my mom was just excellent at being you know, a stay at home mom is baking and cooking and my memory always seem to be cheery and happy to play with us, which is a hard thing to aim for. Yeah, whereas it might be a little bit because of what my job is like, I know I can do my job on my phone or on my laptop home anywhere. With both kids. I've gone back into some kind of from home work within six months to a year of having them. So although I am staying at home, just like my mom did, I think yeah, I'm I don't have the mental space to be like babe. Yeah, if anything. Yeah, I wish I was a bit more like my mum. But I think the times have very different now. You can't really you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't now, basically, you know, if I was staying at home not working, I'm sure someone would have something to say about that. Or if I was working full time putting the kids in daycare, you know, that would also be mortifying for some people. So yes, just trying to strike a balance in these crazy modern times, isn't it? Yeah, I think yeah, we're all just doing the best we can out we like have no there's so much. I think that's where a lot of people do feel the mum guilt is like the judgment of others that someone's comment will make you feel bad about yourself. But you know, deep down like you said before, about you know, you you know you're doing the best you can you know, you you're giving your children everything you can. So it's these sort of offhand flippant remarks, and really make us question ourselves and it's like social media makes it even worse when you see your people doing whatever and you think, oh, I should be doing that or I shouldn't be doing that or whatever. You know that Yeah, should Africa. Yeah. And that's a big part of, I guess why I wanted to include a little like reality about motherhood and breastfeeding, that sort of thing in my book, because also similar with that breastfeeding, sort of damned if you do damned if you don't, as well, you know, as a mother, you might feel so ashamed to try to breastfeed your kid in public. But then you'll be, like, equally ashamed to go and buy it in a formula. There's no winning in our society, you can't do the right thing. So yeah, I just wanted I guess, to include a little reality where kind of bubbles under the surface of the rest of her story. And it's not the be all end all, but it's quite, I would say, it's quite realistic for the story, which I think is helpful for young women because, like, I'm a 90s, baby my, like growing up seeing moms in media, it was like Rachel on friends. Yeah. Babies represented like they would come into the apartment and just look at this baby sleeping in the cot by itself and like, Oh, that's a cute baby. Like, that is so not what happened for me, baby. Well, why wasn't Rachel contact? Nothing? Or like having vomit all over her? Like, where was your reality? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm having my first baby. I just was so oblivious. I had no idea what to expect. So, yes, a bit of reality, I think is nice. Yes, I can relate to that. It's like you see people with babies and you hear you hear stories and and you just have no, you really have no idea, do you? Like even if someone tells you, you don't really even listen, because you're just not even in that headspace. Like, you just don't take it in. And that's probably how human race continues to reproduce. If you really took it in and you knew what it would be like, you might not want to do that. That's just surgery. Want to ask you just you just piqued my interest with something with marigold in the book. Does she copy any flack from other characters in the book about her choice to be the witness? Yes. So she does not actually tell her husband, her husband and her have quite a toxic relationship. So she's sort of jumped at the opportunity to move in with this doctor to help his child. But she tells her husband, she's just a live in nanny, because she knows he would be, you know, really weirded out by that. And within the actual household that she moves into. He also has a sort of housekeeper that helps with cooking and stuff while he works. And she's very judgmental of marigolds. So she's, you know, sort of like, you're getting paid, you know, this obscene amount of money to lay around breastfeeding a baby. So she thinks it's just ridiculous and thinks they should have tried harder to find the right formula and all this sort of thing. So yeah, she definitely faces quite a lot of backlash. And also sort of she has an inner dialogue going, this is just bizarre, like, what am I doing? I've just lost a baby. And now I'm in someone else's house, breastfeeding their baby who's pretty much the same age as what her baby would have been at that point. So yeah, it's a very conflicting position she's in. Yeah, that would be Yeah, like she she would she'd just think this is really weird. What am I doing and made me feel really uncomfortable physically about doing it, but then at the same time, it would just give us so much. I don't know, comfort, I guess. But at the same time, could be also then. A bit weird to that she's imagining it's her own child. I don't know. There's so many. Yeah, there, isn't it? Yeah, there are definitely little moments like that. And it's been so touching. I've had a few reviews from mothers that have read it. And you know, I've had one who is breastfeeding, I believe her toddler. And she was just like, oh my gosh, I feel so seen like, I've never read a book where that you actually, you know, the actual latching on and everything like you actually know what the baby's doing. I've never read that. And I was like, that's amazing. And I had another review, which just made me cry or mother that has two healthy kids, but she lost a baby in between them. And she was just, you know, so thankful that I included that in the story and I've been careful not to. I guess I didn't delve too deeply into it because I haven't experienced it myself. So I was really hesitant to go far into one What happened, you know, kind of doesn't really say exactly what happened. It's really in the background. But I have tried really hard to include, you know, the emotions of what she's gone through. And the most important part for me was giving her a story where she finds purpose again, she finds happiness. And although you know, the pain of that will never go away. She does continue on in her life, which hopefully is comforting for people. Because it's such such a common thing that women go through. And it's not. Isn't I've never read it in a book personally. So yeah, just think that argument is fantastic. Good. Only fintona? Did you did you feel torn at any stage about not writing it in that way? Would you think that this is I'm doing it like this? I was told there was a little while where I thought, you know, I haven't experienced this. Maybe it's the wrong thing to write about it. You know, maybe she gave her baby up for adoption or something like that. But then I thought, you know, there's, there's a lot more women that can relate to this story. And it would be I think, a lot more helpful for women, if that's just what happens. So just stuck with it. And hopefully, I've done it justice. It sounds like from the from the feedback you've had that's really positive. Well done, that's awesome. So tell us where people can get the book. Yes. So right now it's available on Amazon. So it's available as a Kindle ebook, or it's available as a paperback so you can get either format. And I'm this year, I'm getting it into a few more physical stores in Brisbane, it will be available at a little shop called marigold house coincidentally. So that was a very happy coincidence and that it'll be available from next week there that's in the gap in Brisbane. And then yeah, hopefully a few more physical bookstores as the year goes on, which is exciting. Fantastic. Marigold milk, buy a list of mine on Amazon. Yeah, that's where it is. Awesome. Well, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes so people can click away and Oh, great. Awesome. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's really lovely. It was lovely. To talk to an adult. It's really it's been a lovely experience for me just to be able to do something about my children. Happy first day of school. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Simone Wise South Australian visual artist S2 Ep55 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Simone Wise, a visual artist from Adelaide and mother of 2. Simone grew up surrounded by creativity, with 2 creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and she was never really bored as she was always making craft. She studied Art History and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her early to mid 30s that she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner , and interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism style, She is currently studying a Fine Art Course at Adelaide Central School of Art. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects, role modelling perseverance to her son through her art and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. **This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health*** The Robot painting Follow Simone on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Me today, it really does mean a lot. My guest this week is Simone wise. Simone is a visual artist from Adelaide in Australia, and is a mum of two. So mine grew up surrounded by creativity with two creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and Simone was never really bored, as she was always making craft. She studied art history and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her mid 30s That she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner, and she's very interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism. She is currently studying your fine art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects role modeling perseverance to her son through her heart, and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. Music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM Joe, Australian New Age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome to the podcast Simone. It's really lovely to meet you and have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Allison. I'm really excited to chat about all things creative and being a mom in the world today. It's a pleasure. So we're about to you, based you in Adelaide. Australia. Yep. Yeah, based in Adelaide. I'm born here lived in Queensland for a little bit but mostly been here. All my life. So yeah, yeah. Have you ever been down to make Gambia where I am? I have. Yes. And I've actually my little boy has been asking me to go to Mount Gambia for a while because he's got friends who have been so yeah, but no, I did love it down there. It's Yeah, lovely. Yeah. Don't come in winter. Just stay away. Okay, so yeah, yeah. Wait, did the sun comes back to Yeah. So your visual artists can you share what sort of style your art is? And yeah, okay. Well, I'm I'm two years into a three year Fine Art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. And I specifically chose that school because it has really strong grounding in I guess you'd say the traditional arts foundations. Not everyone who graduates from their works in you know, old fashioned sort of art, but it has a really good foundation in a drawing and painting. And so I guess you'd say I, my paintings have been described as photorealistic. But I don't really like that description to be honest. Because while there's a skill in photo realism, there's not much in terms of interpretation. So I like to think I painting like more of a tonal realist style. And I'm really informed by still life paintings from Dutch 17th century like that real tradition of, you know, like a black background with things like grapes and setups of grapes and lemons and Silver Goblets and things like that. I love the iconography and symbolism and drama, all of all of that. And so I'm very much drawn to really detailed paintings and really detailed drawings. Yes. So, do you work in? I'm gonna ask this question. Now. It's probably a question for later but I was looking on your Instagram, as I do with all my guests. I like to have a bit of a stalk before I do But you you were you painted in? It was oils, but it was on copper. Can you explain what the relevance of that is because I don't know anything about anything. I've done one painting on copper. And it was a bit of an experiment. And I was thrilled that it got chosen to be part of an Art Prize, because I wasn't sure how it would work out. But yeah, traditionally, it's something that's been done quite a lot. But it's been in centuries past that it's been painted, like the board hasn't been able to go through, you get a piece of copper and like etching copper, and you put some just sew something to create the ground and then you paint on it like any other surface, you can paint on. Lots of things. So yeah, I didn't, I don't think I'll get back to it because I found it a little too slippery. But I did love the warmth and depth that comes from the middle, underneath. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, like I said, I don't know anything I've got, since I've been chatting to people. Through the podcast, I've discovered that I can actually do art, like I thought it had to be, like realism sort of stuff. Like it had to look like what it looks like. And because I couldn't do that, I was like, I can't do this. And then all of a sudden, I realized there's all these things you can do. Thing is amazing chord like people. I'm not trying to do a humble brag or anything. But people often say to me, like, Oh, you're so talented. And I don't actually think I'm that talented. I think I just have perseverance and sort of a bit obsessive sometimes. I think the school that I went to teaches you like really, like we learned the most boring painting triangles in black and white ages. And you know, you can't help but develop some skill. And if you're obsessed enough with something to stay up too early in the morning to get better at it, then you will so yeah, that's it, it really is a practice isn't it? It's not like you just wake up one day and you can all of a sudden do something, you actually have to learn the skills and and that's something else I didn't understand either. I just thought because my background singing I just thought you can sing or you can't sing like he can, you can do it or you can't and that's how I felt about drawing and painting until very recently. So I'm glad I've experienced it even when, like I'm at a point where I'm happy with my skill level. But there's still heaps more that I can learn about different techniques and different ways I can push myself conceptually so yeah, I can never ending process so when did you first get interested in art and creativity. I've always been interested in art and creativity. My mom's very creative. I'm one of three girls and we all are creative in our own ways I grew up going to the gallery a lot really loving art never really been bored because we were always making something out of papers, sticky tape. I guess I was always craft II I still entered still am I still do lots of crochet and sewing and things. But I never really trusted myself as an artist because like you said, like you were saying before you cannot you can't there are always people in school who were better drawers than me. I was interested in it. But I wasn't ever, like, didn't have that natural aptitude to be like amazing. So I I studied art history interested in getting into working in art. And I love to I love art history, but it didn't quite feel right enough for me to pursue that as a career too much. And it wasn't really until about my early to mid 30s that I took the plunge and went to art school and thought you know, what the hell. You know, if I if I want to do something, I'll usually do it properly. And so going to art school was my way of like, taking the plunge and seeing whether I could do it or not. So, yeah, yeah. And I've been through to discover that. You know, I, I can't it's just a matter of perseverance. So I was terrible, terrible at first and always one of the slowest in the class. So yeah, that didn't put you off. You're determined to do it. Yeah, there was a sort of bloody mindedness about me that I was just I wasn't gonna let it let it beat me. Good Anya, that's a great energy to hear. When you're talking about your art history, background, is that weird that sort of that love and appreciation of the symbolism sort of comes from? I think so. Yeah, I think the thing about my art history studies has taught me is that art is such a reflection of the world that you live in. And so, you know, you might look at a 17th century Dutch painting of a goblet and some grapes and think, oh, that's boring. I've seen that 100 times before, but it's actually of its time it had symbolism about, you know, life and death and wealth and prosperity and, you know, eternal life or, you know, greed or yeah, there's so much symbolism so much meaning to things. And I find it really fascinating to think about the context in which it was created. Yeah, I find that really fascinating, too. I had an interview with Dr. Melanie Cooper on one of my season ones, I love her. And I just opened my eyes to this whole world. And I was so fascinated by it, because I'm, I'm one of those people that I can't just watch a movie. And just, like, watch the movie, I have to see all the little hidden messages and in the, you know, the light and shade or wherever, where the actors is placed, and all this stuff, and it drives my sister nuts. Like, I can't just watch something and just shut up and watch it. So I found that really fascinating. And ever since then, I've sort of had this newfound appreciation for pieces of art, because they can't just be viewed on their own. Like, you can't just take them they have to be viewed within a context. She that's just reminded me of something that's completely random. Have you watched that Netflix show? It's called I think it's called inventing Anna. It's just come out. It's about that, that haven't I've seen teen girl. Yeah, she it's like this. She's a con woman. And she's really into art. And there's this one scene where they're in this art gallery, and I can't remember what the who the artist was. But she basically said, someone said, Oh, that's a really crap painting or whatever it was, it was a it was a photo of this art a lady with like a, I don't know, she had, you know how they used to put like handkerchiefs over their heads to stop that when they're in the cars or something. The hair going into it. Sorry, this is really random. It just reminded me. And so the person that was looking at it was all they were seeing was this lady with a thing overhead and just got in what's why is that amazing? And, and Anna in a, you know, calmness come out with this big story about how that was the first time a woman had stepped in front of the camera. And like a photographer, had made herself the subject and because of the era that it was in, and it was like a message about patriarchy and women's rights. And it was like, that just reminded me Sorry. No, no, no thing I love about art is that there's, it can just be a pretty picture or something that you'd like to look up. But there can also be so much to it. And I sort of get discouraged when people say sort of assume like art has to be just about skill. And I guess for me, I do have obvious skill in that I can paint. You know, if I would have been an apple, it would look like an apple when people would recognize it. And so they therefore think that my art is good art, whereas not necessarily, you know, and it's there's a sort of, I guess it might be a bit of a tall poppy thing, like people not wanting to push themselves or be confused by something challenged. And I think that that's the Australian way, isn't it? Like we've always got to we've got to cut down our tall poppies because they make everyone else feel in insignificant or incompetent. Or, you know, we've always got to try and level the playing field in some way, don't we? Yeah, it's horrifying that there is that tendency to feel. Yeah, I feel like you to feel discomfort about not knowing something instead of curiosity. Yeah, that's sorry. That is that's a really well put that's that's really well said. Yeah, so you paste that page on copper that we talked about before, was actually it was off the handle of cemetery. It's called handle of cemetery summer. And it was selected by the handoff Academy in the Adelaide Hills landscape arts prize. And that's pretty special. Yeah, I was thrilled, especially as I was saying before, it's the first time I painted on copper, and I saw that painting is a bit of an experiment. And I was also trying to push myself in that painting to leave things more unfinished. There's a tendency me to be a perfectionist and just paint everything to a fine detail. And that was quite inspired by an artist. Turner, and he has these beautiful paintings of weather and landscape that are just sort of half finished. They're just so coarse in some areas. And so I was just really trying to get get to that. Yeah, it's It actually reminds me of paintings that my Nana, not my Nana, sorry, my grandma had on her wall. She lived in clango, which is a little place near Mount Gambia. And just the color of the sky like that really burnt orange. I don't know I just when I looked at this, it just there's a I don't know there's a famous painting that used to be in her lounge. And it just came into my head. I thought gosh, Is that? I'm not saying it's the same, it's nowhere near the same. But that that color, that color just got me and I had that, you know that nostalgic Pang that you get. Then you go. Oh, yeah, yeah. So can you share with the listeners about the story about that? How that painting came to be? Yeah, well, I I specifically painted that painting and took the photograph that I painted that painting from with the Adelaide Hills landscape prize in mind. So that's why I was so stoked I got it. I guess like a lot of people I struggle with procrastination and fitting things in. So I will often choose an Art Prize and paint something for it. And whether or not I get it in is not the ultimate outcome. It's just to have something to do and to have a deadline. So and I don't do landscapes and but I thought I was quite interested to try. So I went for a drive up to hand off with my son one day and we had a lovely walk around. And I'm quite interested in cemeteries so may sound morbid taking your he was then four, I believe. Yeah. Taking a four year old to the cemetery. But um, yeah, I just love those. Love the area. And it's such a traditional old cemetery with so many old German names there. Yeah, yeah. Definite face for the eyes and lots of areas to paints. Yeah. Yeah, no, I can appreciate that interest in cemetery skill. I think it's, it's such a can obviously, it's a connection to the past. And often, like, we've got two cemeteries here, we've got like the new the newer one, and then we've got this really, really old one. And it's so nice to walk around and see. Like that. I don't know, it's just, it feels weird that you will somewhere with someone that that has was existed so many, like maybe 100 years before you, and you're at the same place at the same time with this person. Like it feels really unlikely. And there's one in the old kalangan Do you see reentry? In one of them? It doesn't even say this lady's name. It just says mother. And couldn't she even got a name on it? Like that one just really sticks in my mind. And I find that interesting to to see how people are remembered by other people the words they used to describe them and all that sort of stuff. I find that really fascinating. Yeah, for sure. Day. Now, you said there that you're not you don't usually do the landscapes? No. So what's your sort of? I mean, again, I've stalked you on Instagram. No, there was a picture that sorry. Yeah, a photo that you posted of painting that you've done of your son's robot that he made? Oh, yes. Which is always a beautiful picture. Like, it's just, I look at it. And I think like you could put your hand in and pick it up. Like it's just so it's really stick but without being, like I said before, like it's not an exact copy. It's got like, I don't know, it feels like it's looked through through a filter or a lens or something like an old. I don't know, rambling again. But I really liked that. So yeah, so share with us, what's the sort of things that you usually paint? What are you sort of influenced by mostly? Yeah, I usually paint objects. I don't generally tend to paint, paint or draw people and just not that I have anything against people who do or paintings that are of people are portraits, but I'm more interested in objects and what our objects say about us. So it's almost like I believe the objects that we find special to us are more of a portrait in some ways. And so that painting, it's lovely to hear that you love it, because that was very dear to me. It sold which was very flattering as well. It's amazing to think that someone wanted to pay money for that. So yeah, the I guess the story behind that one is my mum was looking after my son while I was at work, and my son is very, very into making and creating things too. And he just got it in his head that he had to make me a robot and he and my mom made it robot and he was just so his dear little face when he gave it to me. He was just so thrilled. And yeah, and I was yeah, it was just one of those lovely moments of being a mom where you're like your kids made you something really gorgeous and it's this really sweet and there was just a way to sort of capture that and I entered it into a Portrait Prize because um I see it as a portrait. Even though it's not a traditional portrait, it's almost like a double portrait because it's sort of triple portrait even because it's like, the title is me as a smart and pretty robot, which my son made a robot version of me being smart and pretty, which is what you'd want to be functioning well as well. And so he made it, and then I painted it. And so yeah, it was like a double, you know, his creativity, my creativity and our relationship. And so there are a lot of objects that have a real lot of meaning and tell a lot of story and I love I really like the ambiguity of painting something that might be a bit confusing, like, why would you paint? You know, I spent hours and hours and hours painting this particular thing and plunking it in the middle of something and making it look like this amazing, grand thing like they did with the, you know, Dutch still lives of these amazing goblets. You know, you can understand why paint something that was like beautiful fruit and silverware. But why would you paint some sort of cardboard thing? I quite liked the ambiguity of that. So yeah, that raises a real question. I think of like, what is valuable? And what, you know, just because something doesn't have a price tag. It's important to someone it has that value that that person places on it. Yeah, yeah, the sort of thing that you might grab, if they were a fire would not necessarily be the most money stuff at the most monetary things that are a link to another relationship. Yeah. Two things I want to ask you about this conversation. What did you send? Think about the fact that you then painted a picture of the robot? What was his impression of that? It's funny. He's very blase. Most kids who grew up their parents, whatever their parents is, like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, I asked him about the progress as I went on. I was like, What do you think about that color background? He's like, Yeah, it's good. Yeah. He was. Yeah, he was, I think it was he was quietly chuffed, but not amazingly. So just like yet. He was, he was annoyed when it got into the exhibition. And I haven't told him that it's sold yet he's forgotten about it. He sort of was a bit annoyed that it got in like, as if I hadn't consulted him. He's, I guess it was his intellectual property. So that's funny. Yeah. It's interesting, you say about objects that people might collect or be given, or you know, what they place their value on, I suppose. And you were saying how that can sometimes tell you more about someone than, you know, a portrait. Or maybe that's what I was thinking. Maybe they weren't your words, but I was thinking like, you can find out so much more about someone by looking at the things that they hold dearest. It's so interesting, because there's a friend of mine who is a watercolor artist, and Julia, Rita, hello, shout out to you. She collects when she goes on a walk, she collects pieces of nature. So it might be leaves, or gum nuts, or just anything that she finds. And she always posts on Instagram of the things that she's found. And I always find it so fascinating, because I'm like that with feathers, feathers. I always click those. And if there's an interesting leave, it's got to be very interesting. Yeah. And it's just like, why do we do this? Like, what are we, you know, this connection that we want to have to things surrounded by so many things and so many objects, which are the ones that stand out and become special? I just, I just find it really interesting. Yeah, so I was gonna ask you about your son. So he's, he's grown up. Like you said, he's a bit sort of blase, but the whole thing, because he's seen the paint he's grown up in, in the family of a painter and artist. Can you tell us a little bit more about him? Yeah, his name is Emmanuel. He's five started school this year. He's, he's lovely. He's amazing. He's He's very funny. Very energetic and hyper. He teaches me a lot about the world actually, he sort of I've often said he, he approaches everyone as if they're going to be fit be his friend. And mostly they are and I think that's a such a lovely way whereas I'm a lot more introverted and shy than him and it's just lovely to see him approach people with faith and excitement and enthusiasm and response. So yeah, that's, that's really interesting way you've described it, because it sounds like you're describing my child, but I haven't quite put the words together he seeks and he's the same he just now that you've said it in those words, it makes perfect sense. It's like he thinks everybody in the world is pretty ain't your friend like a kind person? And? Yeah, sort of thing. There's the time gonna come when you realize that's not really true. But for now it's lovely. Yes. There is that. Yeah. Yeah. Being five, he's very hyperactive and energetic. And yeah, it's an interesting age, he's learning to read and all that sort of things. So I think I'm getting to the point where I can sometimes have an hour off, or something to myself, but it's still very much that full on, you know, like food and drink. And this and that the whole time. Very demanding little things. Yeah. It's funny, because like, they grow up, and they're capable of more stuff. But it's like, the more capable they get. It's almost like the more they want you to do for them. Like, hi, like, right? They sort of revert and they want. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I want you to still be there every second. Yeah, exactly. You, you're actually a mother of two. Which I appreciate that. You feel comfortable talking about your son. Can you share with us about Louis? Yeah, so Emanuel has an older brother, Louis, who was born eight years ago. He died as a baby, he was. He was I was 39 weeks pregnant, about to set for an induction and I went to the doctors for the appointment ahead of that. And they were doing the ultrasound and couldn't find a heartbeat. And I was just really, like, what I felt the doctor was like, well, the baby's there. And it just hadn't occurred to me that anything would happen and, and so close to the birth. Yeah, so Louis was stillborn. Yeah, at 39 weeks. So that was, it was horrible, because not that it would necessarily be easier if you knew it was going to happen. But the idea that you could lose a child at that point, was just like, yeah, had not even occurred to me. And it just, I just couldn't quite comprehend it. So and when he was born, he was a perfectly formed, baby, like, he was my child, and he was beautiful. And he but he just wasn't alive. And it was just baffling. Like how it could happen. And yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting, you say that, I think there's so much emphasis placed on you know, the first three months, you know, those first 12 weeks, get through the first 12 weeks, and then no one ever talks about anything happening later on. And I think you're right, you just you just flow through and you just expected that that's what's going to happen. And so when it doesn't, it's just incredibly shocking and confusing. And yeah, yeah, it's almost like you breathe a sigh of relief after those first three months. And you can tell people and yeah, so yeah, it was it was horrible. And I think the fact that he was stillborn I didn't even get to see him breathe. I've always mourned. Well, I've known the whole thing, but I've definitely mourned. Not being able to tell him that I love him and see his eyes open. And so yeah, yeah, it's been um, you know? Yeah, it was was definitely the worst thing that happened. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to mine. That's yeah. And thank you for sharing it too. I think, like a lot of things in, in this world. There's so much taboo stuff that we never talk about. Yeah. And I feel like the more conversations we have about that stuff, the more we're actually helping each other. He's you know, on this on this podcast before we've talked about miscarriages, stillbirths, we've talked about mental health issues, death of a parent grateful, that sort of stuff. And I think it's important not only for the people that are sharing it, to have a platform to be able to share it if they want. But people who might have experienced something like that, and haven't had anyone around them talk about it. You know, this might be the first time someone's heard someone else say that and think, oh, wow, I am allowed to talk about that or you know, and encourages people to reach out to other people and and get conversation started. Yeah, and you're very alone. I mean, I guess no one can ever be inside your head with you. But it is a particular type of grief because, you know, you might meet someone new, you might be in the shops and someone could just assume that you're fine. You know, it's one of those. I'm sure everyone going through grief feels like you know, you should have this big red splash on your face or something. Like, to show that things aren't fine and normal and it's with being a mum, and having had a child but not having the child to raise. It complicates things so much like, you know, you'll meet someone, you know, go to the hairdresser, and they'll say, Have you got any kids? And in the early days, I would say yes, because I, it pains me to say no, because it was a definite was like a denial of his existence. And then people would that would raise people be uncomfortable and not know what to say and be awkward. And these days, I'll I'll choose whether I say or not. And most times, I'll actually just say, I've got the one kid because I just don't feel the need to get into conversation with acquaintances. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my friends and family obviously all know about it. But I feel more comfortable not talking about Louis as much as I used to. I think in the early days, it was important for me to I was always angry it No, it wasn't almost, I was very angry. I felt angry that he wasn't there. I felt angry that people didn't know about him. And I Yeah, yeah. It's like, you wanted to tell them because it was, I guess, validating the fact that he actually did exist he, you know, yeah, that would feel like you weren't doing the right thing by him, I guess to say, you know, to acknowledges that he was there. Yeah. And people were well, meaning that there are some platitudes that come out. And people would say something like, Oh, he's, he's in heaven. Now he's with the angels or something that people don't say that about grown. People that have died, it's almost like because he was a baby wasn't, you know, he gets those throwaway little comments. It's almost like it's not valuing the life as much. Yeah, no, that's a good is a good point. So throughout that experience that you had, was there any place for your art there? Was that sort of, did you use that as a tool to heal? Or was it was it tucked away for a while? Like how did that sort of play out? Oh, actually played a huge role. And I feel like, without wanting to sound, you know, melodramatic, it made me the person that I am now and might be, not get over it, get the get through it. Because I'd been in art school while I was pregnant with Lewis and had teamed during the break. And then I went back to the next semester, art classes and, you know, family sort of question, like, Maybe you should take a break from art school. But I did take a little bit of a break from work, but it was important for me to go back to art school, and I really just became obsessed with painting then. And like I said, at first, I was terrible. But I, you know, not having a new baby, like, all my preparations had gone into having this new child to look after. And suddenly, there was a quiet house, and I was on maternity leave, and there was not a child to look after. So it was actually quite good to be able to, you know, I'd stay up to like three or four or five in the morning painting assignments, because I could, you know, it was a way for me to sort of do something that was doing something. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a way to, like hold on to something that I think at the time, I wouldn't even say I was enjoying the painting wasn't about enjoying, it was just about doing it, it was almost like a chore or a challenge or something. So in the early days, it was something to do to get better at it. And further on, it was like a way to something to hold on to something good in life, because it it's funny with with grief, you know, it's quite circular, and you can feel like, I think the worst time for me was about a year after it had happened, because I felt like by that point, I should possibly be pregnant again, and things should be back to normal and things should be fine. But in any in many ways, I think I'd had quite a naive optimistic view of the world and that view had gone down and a year later I just felt like life was just like, trudging through you know, it was all very gray and bleak and art was the one thing I could like make a decision to hold on to and make life good. Yeah, like in some ways, you know that that saying fake it till you make it like it was my thing to hold on to as something good in the world to get enthusiastic about even though I didn't feel enthusiastic I sort of gradually made myself force myself to be so yeah, yeah. So it was this is hate describing like this, but it was sort of like a form of therapy. I suppose. That helped you? Oh, definitely process and work through thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a my ex partner at the time Probably not fair on him to go into too much information about him, but seeing him NOT have a channel to express himself or spend time on doing anything productive, I saw that I was definitely the better off by having a way to spend my time improving on something I'm getting better at it. Yeah. And I think yeah, for yourself to, to feel productive and feel like, you know, there's, there's something like said there's something good in the world. And it might have also been like, a consistent thing that you knew, was probably, you know, it was up to you whether it was there. It wasn't, so it was gonna be there as long as you wanted it to, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I think being in art school at the time I had, you know, there was deadlines, things had to be done on a certain time. So, yeah, there was. Yeah, it was definitely a type of therapy. Yeah. I think I think sometimes when the world feels a bit bleak, I've had my own mental health, not so much postnatal depression, but other types of mental health issues. Art is a good way to sort of keep busy doing something that feels worthwhile. Yeah, absolutely. As a mother, have you noticed that what you're influenced by has changed, or the way that you look at things have has changed in terms of your art? Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Um, I mean, I was still in the early days of my artists being an artist before I became a mom. But since then, I've found it's yeah, definitely informs my art and the way I see things, because everything that happened with my first son, and my second son, you sort of realize what's important in life and what sort of things are meaningful, and you look for meaning how you can display that meaning visually, so yeah. Yeah, nice. And that's something I, I like about my own art, which sounds a bit vague. I like that, um, I've got the skill to show something, you know how it is, I can paint something and people can appreciate like, Oh, that's a painting of a, whatever it is. And leave it at that. But then there is also that other element, like, for example, the robot painting we were talking about before, you could look at that and say, Oh, it's a child's piece of craft, but then there is also that further element. Like the layering that you get. Oh, yeah, it's so fascinating. I really wish I had gotten done this earlier in my life. Really? I mean, I know I'm only 40 but after long hopefully I've got a long time to do this stuff is so interesting. I just love it. Well, I'm 42 I turned 40 A couple of weeks ago and um, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years or even like fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills and who knows what will happen in the future I might have more time to push things further Yeah. Two really interesting topics I like to talk to all of my guests about is mum guilt and identity so we'll launch into monk your first because that's always a bit of fun. It's everyone's concept of Aries is different in which I love to to say interesting. What's your take on mum guilt? What's your thoughts around that? I'm, I've been thinking about that since you asked me for the interview and I'm undecided about mum guilt because I feel like it definitely exists. I do feel guilty about things whether or not that guilt is fair on myself or other people well I think it comes from wanting to do the best you can by the by your child and feeling like you're perhaps letting them down. So I do believe in mum guilt that way, but then I also feel like perhaps or maybe I'm just I'm just lucky and privileged in that I haven't felt as judged from people. It's the people I surround myself with. supportive of the things I do so I don't feel that sense of mom guilt socially. If you're not, I mean like I, I work and my son's in child in school and childcare, but OSH if if things could be different they would be but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I am not a traditional mum, and that we don't, you know, bake together very often or do a lot of things I'd like I say, while I do feel regret that there's not as much time together as I would like, I don't feel guilty about that, because that's where we live in. You know, it's if I were not working, then there'd be other problems that we'd have. Yeah. Sorry. Yes, I'm undecided. I definitely do feel guilty mom guilt about not doing everything and definitely times when I haven't done my best as a mom and being a single mom. There are times when I'm just so exhausted. And I've completely I've got nothing left. And I know that at times I could have done better and I lose it a bit and I do feel guilt then, but I wouldn't describe that as your what most people might call mum guilt i i describe that more as just like, general, you know, feeling like I did a shit job of parenting that. Yeah, hats off to you. By the way, anyone that's out there as a single moms listing. I've got so much respect for you guys. Man. Well, I'm lucky compared to some of my friends who are doing it all alone. I do have a you know, my son still got a great dad who's a big part of his life. So I don't have my son 100% of the time. So I do get time to you know, have a bit of mental space and not Yeah, so I think it would be much harder if you're that the sole custody parent for sure. Oh, yeah. I don't know how he's doing honestly. I'm just really weak and pathetic. You get surprised by what you're capable of. I never intended to be a single parent. It was not what you know. I went into a marriage and motherhood thinking but it is what it happened. Did you know it happened and managed somehow whether or not undoing all right I assume I am. I think I am still alive and healthy and a nice person. Yeah. Yeah, he's still out there making these friends with everyone. So you know he you know you're doing a good job yeah, this concept of identity that when when you're a mom, you just you don't want to say you're just a mom, because we're never just a mom. That's not the the right words, but you can be so much more than the mothering role, I suppose. What What's your thoughts on that as well? Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I do see myself as as a mom as a huge part of my identity. Especially I think having feeling like angry and bitter that my first son was taken away from me. I've held on to that identity of myself as a mother quite strongly like yes, I Yeah, definitely. That's a big part of my identity. Almost like the core really like is when you have a child, they're sort of even if they're not physically with you, they're there somewhere else. People I've heard all sorts of cheesy phrases like having a child is like having your heart out in the world or something that there is a trick to that in that you there's always a part of you that you're thinking about them and hoping they're okay and yeah, it's not the only part of me but it's it's the major part of me you know, I think being an artist and my job and my family and friends form a part of that as well but yeah, it's definitely sort of feels like the central part of my identity especially in this stage of my son's life where that five he still very much needs me a lot and it's quite physical you know, a lot of cuddles and other physical things cleaning up getting food and that seems to be the biggest thing and I they're always want something that feeds things to be excited come on you how much you eat. Oh my God. It's not seasonal. So I've got two boys and it's like my oldest ones because he 14 now and he'll the years he's been eating the same amount of tea is my husband think they'd like sticks. There's nothing off them. It's insane. Yeah, really? Yeah. Always growing boys. No Are you? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman is it important to you to continue to have your own interests? Outside of being a mum? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think having my own interests outside of being a mum, I feel like is a good part of being a mum. Without wanting to speak ill of my own mum, I think growing up in a very creative family and she was very creative and loved doing art, but she didn't pursue it outside of, you know, craft things for herself. And not that everything has to be pursued to a high level, but it did seem to me as a, something that she could have pursued and didn't different times different means that sort of thing. But um, yeah, I think my son, he's definitely interested in my art. And he gets to see that and something that I really, really, really want him to grow up with is a sense of perseverance. And the idea that if you want something, you have to try really hard to make it happen. And I think he's in in a small way, my art shows in that because he sees something from a small, you know, nothing Canvas to become something that I choose it to be, and he sees me spending a lot of time on it. So the idea of time, putting time into something and sticking to it, not that instant gratification. Yeah, and the idea that if, if you want to be good at something you can be, but you just have to try. So I do talk about even though I'm not studying, right at the moment, I do talk about art school, and how you can get, you can learn things and get better at them with practice. And so that idea of practice I talk to him a lot about and I think it's, it's an interesting thing as well, art, like there's so much so much art that you can go and take kids to, and it's something that we really do a lot together of so it's a big part of our lives together. And I think he's, we go to a lot of gallery openings and things together. And so yeah, in a way, it is a part of my identity as a mother with the art and having that it's important because it informs me as a mother to him, but it's also good for him to see me pushing myself, I think in spending my time doing something that I'm interested in, because not that there's anything wrong with sitting in binging TV show. I've, I've definitely done that. But I think in life, you'd want to have, you know, big things that you go after. And I think it's good for him to see that. Yeah, I love that. Because it reminds me of this, this saying what society says to kids that are you can be anything you want to be. But then it doesn't follow up with if you work really, really hard at it and persevere at it. You know, it's I think sometimes kids can have this sense of entitlement, I can be whatever I want, you know. And also that, that idea that that two things you said then sort of got me going this, this way that society is seems to be going about, everything's got to be supplied in an instant, you know, like this, I want something so I'm going to order it and get it in two days, or I've broken something that I'm not going to repair it because it's cost more to repair than to buy a new one and this instant gratification. Like I don't know, that I think for him to be able to get that understanding that, you know, a painting does not just appear on the wall of the gallery. There's, you know, all these hours and efforts and decisions to be made and all the stuff that goes into making that pace. I think that's a really valuable thing to teach your child. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's a very peaceful activity. So I don't paint a lot when he's around because occasionally he'll see me painting and all who see the progress is quite slow. And I think that peacefulness is something that's missing in life. So a lot for me It plays. So the sense of something being slow and peaceful, certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah, I spoke to a, an artist the other day who was a posture, like did this do clay took the clay out the earth, made it into shapes into whatever. And then you have to take a really long time for to fire it, you can't just put it in and expect it to be done in, you know, five minutes because it will actually wreck it and exploded, you know, everything takes time. And we're talking about how you know that. That forces her to slow down, it forces it to take time and to be patient and to appreciate the process. And you know, there's just Yeah, and she also makes mistake Mercedes she's going to be here episode will be out soon. I actually know her episode would have been on by the time yours comes out. Sorry. I'm getting okay. Okay, Visa the timeline. But yeah, she made ink out of acorns, some like, and then she was making charcoal out of like, vines, sticks of like vines, putting them in little tin and putting them in the fire. And, you know, filling up the tin and drawing with each other. It's like, we don't do that anymore. We just go and order stuff. And it arrives and no one knows what happened. It's just getting back in touch with the earth. And I don't know, we're getting away from that stuff. And that raises an important idea about when you're creative, like the process of it, like, it's good to have something to show at the end. And I wouldn't paint if you know, everything I painted, got chucked in the bin at the end of the night. But the process is really meaningful is really important as well, like, for me the mixing of the color colors that I need and the application. It's something that's real, it feels really vital to me like the process of going through painting, you know, if I could, if I could speed up my process, I don't think I would, because I really enjoy the whole. I'm very slow and take a long time. But I really enjoy every aspect of it and the different phases of a painting. Yeah, yeah. And again, yeah, it's not all about the end product. It's yeah, I like that do you mainly paint in oils or do acrylic painting as well? I don't paint with acrylic. I don't really have any acrylic paint. Aside from like, I'll start. I won't ever start with a white surface. So I'll start with them easily Burnt Umber I'll do in acrylic, just because it's cheaper to cover a board in acrylic than oil dries quicker as well, which is good. But um, no, I just really love the way that oil, you can sort of push and pull it in. It's so pliable and it takes longer to dry, so you feel less pressure to get it perfect. I do some I do do a little bit of watercolor here and there. Like if I'll do a little sketch or something like that I'll do some watercolors are from sort of autism instant gratification. You know, I'll work with watercolor, but I like watercolor has a sort of you don't really know exactly how it's going to turn out. I mean, you do but I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah, if you go with that unexpected side, you can get some really beautiful stuff. And I've I don't know enough about acrylic, and I haven't painted in it enough to either be able to control it or enjoy that unexpected element that I enjoy from watercolor. Yeah, I guess it depends what you can, what results you want. And I don't I don't think I could get what I want with acrylics. Whereas if I were painting something different and what after a different look. And if I could get that from acrylics I'm, I'm sure I would because it would be cheaper and easier to clean up. Paintings are a real pain in the bum. You know, at the end of the night when you finished having to clean your brushes. Yeah. You can't just do what I do and just leave it in the water till the next day or longer. Think got any sort of things that you're working on at the moment, like any particular sort of train of thought for your work or anything coming up, like entering competitions or anything like that? Yeah, I hate to say it but I've had a bit of a lull at the moment. I've had a lot going on On family wise, with my dad being in hospital now, and my son starting school, so I feel like this whole year has been quite overwhelming to begin with. So I haven't done a lot of art. I've done a lot of crafts that sort of like my comfort blanket, a bit of crochet. But I've always been in that space of time, I've been going to galleries and looking through art books. So it's always been a part of my life. And I've just been doing more practical things like getting boards ready, because I love to paint on linen on board. So I've been doing things like getting some wooden boards ready for painting for when I'm ready. And I've taken photographs of things because I work from photographs, and I have started a painting, which is sitting up on the kitchen table now. So it feels good to have something out and ready. So yeah, yeah, I sort of had a bit of a flurry towards the end of last year. And I think yeah, that's from working. Not quite full time. But you know, four days a week and having I have to be really self disciplined to do art, and I haven't been that soft. So yeah, but I've, I'm working on a painting at the moment with no, not for any particular competition or anything, but just a lot of things. The work I do can fit slot into competitions. So when it's done, so yeah, I'm actually painting seafood. At the moment, I did a painting of an oyster a year or two ago, and I loved it. And it's a Sargent painting of squeed that I just adore. And it's a lot I'm really attracted to the sort of disgustingness and the beauty of it at the same time. Yeah. So I'm doing a painting of a oyster and a crab and just the sort of the beauty of these, and also the repellent nature of these things as well. That's an interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing about still life painting as you can, what you choose to paint, obviously, you're putting it at the forefront and making people pay attention to this thing. And, yeah, what you choose to paint can be interesting. When you go to art shows, do they have like an explanation of what they're trying to say in in it? Or is that do you? Is it up to the viewer to work to make what they want from it? Yes or no? Yeah, there's often sometimes you go to an exhibition, and it'll just be the title and the medium. And that's all there is other times you'll go to an exhibition. And there'll be a catalogue essay that you can read, which is definitely worth reading, because that is generally written by someone other than the artists, but they'll have had a good conversation with the artist and really understand their concepts. So yeah. And then sometimes if you go, like, for example, at the art gallery, they'll put a small blurb around things, explaining them a little more. So yeah, I think I really do appreciate those catalog essays and the descriptions of them as long as they're written in plain English. And I think with a lot of professions, there's jargon, but there is a real history in writing things more complicated than they need to be. I find it really disheartening, when you'll, I'll go to an exhibition and I love it, and I buy the catalog or take the free catalog and read the essay, and it would just be like, feel really dense. And it just, it's almost like someone's trying to prove that they went to uni. And yeah, it's really alienating, like, creates that boundary between the clever person and the Navy's reading. For sure. And I mean, it's good to be challenged and to find things that you don't know about and try and learn about them. But I think in the writing of it, you need to be out, you can still write beautifully. And write in a way that's easy to understand. Yeah, I had an artist on from Ireland few months ago, and she said the same thing. She said, she said, there's all these blank speak. She tries to stay out of it. Yeah. And I feel like I know it. I can. I can speak that language because I've been school, but I feel like you have to have been to art school to be able to understand something. So yeah, it's an it's interesting, like, maybe that's why, I don't know people gets I sort of liken it to when you go wine tasting, and they'll talk in this special language of I've got I can spell tones of this and notes of that and you just think it's just why like it's just, you know, it's like why, you know, this world has to have The special thing and I like sit in alienates people. And then like, normal everyday people are so off put from, you know, entering this world because they feel so dumb, like, you know, like if you could if going to using the art analogy if people could describe it, like, describe it better and say when I taste this makes me feel this or that or something in a way that was more engaging and not like, made you feel stupid for not getting the exact same thing when you took that see if you know if Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's like this elitist. I wonder if that comes from. I'm gonna draw a very long bow here. Because when I spoke to Melanie, that all this stuff about patriarchy came up about how women have always been excluded from art. You know, traditionally, the women did the arts and crafts, like the craft stuff, and that was like, the crap stuff that wasn't valued by the Yeah, like things like waving that was just a correct Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, is that is all that weird talking language world been created by men to try and keep women out of it? Because they can talk in this fancy way. But women wouldn't understand it. Yeah, that's sort of that. Yeah, I think it's dangerous for any field, to spend, to not be open up to new voices and ideas, I think you can be quite, you can become quite insular in any field. And now mean, if you're talking, or your friends know what you're talking about, or your friends and colleagues, you're talking about, you're talking the same way, then it's all going to start sounding the same and becoming some little in, in joke. And, you know, if other people aren't open to that, then it becomes a bit closed off, doesn't it? Yeah. Did you ever paint with other people, or you always paint by yourself? Yeah, I do always paint by myself, I would love the idea of painting with other people. And I love the idea of having a studio space and being able to bounce ideas off other people. And just sharing the space because you are, it is a very solo practice painting and drawing. So I really love the idea of having a studio and one day I would love to but just at the moment. With work and finances and things, it's just not something that I can do. So I sort of artists, something that I more just grab where I can whereas I think you have a studio, you're paying to rent that space, you sort of want to make the most of it. And I mean, I was sort of hoping once my son went to school, I have Friday's off but hasn't worked out yet, but I think yeah, I'm definitely loved the idea of a studio but um, at the moment it's more just you know what I can get done at home and I'm lucky in that the medium that I love painting and drawing I can do from home I can. I've got a very small place I live in a unit and my artists spread out all over the table at the moment I can do that at home other artists, I guess need that studio space because it's the work that they do isn't practical or feasible to do at home. So yeah, yeah. Before when you're talking about your mom, did that experience of watching her not pursue? Perhaps what she might have been able to do? Did that make you want to do it more? Was that sort of a driving thing? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, it may sound melodramatic. People talk about things on your deathbed that you would regret. But it would definitely be something if I got to old age and hadn't become an artist. I would definitely regret that because even though I didn't know that I had the potential, what I mean, I was interested in art and I suspected I could become an artist but I was so unsure of myself for so long. I wasn't sure if I have the ideas and be able to develop the skill. But I think not pursuing that I would have been disappointed in myself. Yeah, and I just I think I'm sound sounding very melodramatic again. But I think life is quite boring a lot of the time. Like, there's so much drudgery and so much routine, that you just really, really need a I mean, relationships make life worthwhile, but you also really, really need a big, huge ongoing project to be able to, to get excited about otherwise. Yeah. You know, like, the days yeah, that's it. There's everything said repetitive it just flies by before you've even realized. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That Is that is good. We should all live like that. Yeah, I'm saying that sounding Oh, you know, Oprah Winfrey, but not that I haven't been doing much at all. But it's been in my mind. So yeah, see, that's the thing. It makes you see the world a different way. Like I imagined yourself being a musician, you would hear things and think of that. Think of things differently. Whereas I'll look at certain colors or compositions, and it'll get me excited about things or make me think about things a certain way. So it's something that you always carry with you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you, sir. Right. It's been a real pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I really loved talking about, about everything we talked about tonight. It's been all very deep and meaningful. And, yeah, it's good to talk about the things that are important in life, like art and family because, yeah, it really is what makes life worthwhile. So yeah, to have the chance to articulate all the thoughts in my head. Listen to them. Thanks for sharing. It's been really nice. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Sarah Renzi Sanders US mixed media visual artist S1 Ep24 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Renzi Sanders is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland a suburb of Washington D.C USA, and a mother of 3. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother as well as the plethora of roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health, using the mask as a repeated symbol to hide the true self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah’s own meditation practice and creative vision are intrinsically linked as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. We chat about how Sarah draws on this meditation practice to create her art challenging the patriarchy in art and life, being your true authentic self, judgement and generosity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression and autism** Connect with Sarah on her website and instagram Find Sarah"s new series here Find Sarah’s Mixed Media Madonna project here Find Sarah’s Kensington Artists profile here Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for joining me. My guest today is Sarah Renzi Sanders. Sarah is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, United States, and she's a mom of three. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother, as well as the plethora of other roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health. Using the mask is a repeated symbol to hide the truth self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah's own meditation practice, and creative vision are intrinsically linked, as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. Today, we chat about how Sarah draws on that meditation practice, challenging the patriarchy in art and in life, being your true authentic self judgment and generosity. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression, and autism. Thank you so much for coming on today. Sarah, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm right in saying Happy Thanksgiving. Yes, yes. Last night, so I'm very glad that it's a feeling a bit full silver. I am but you know what, I had leftovers for breakfast and, and it was great. D tell me is it? I'm not totally familiar with thanksgiving. But is it almost bigger than Christmas? For you guys over there. It's like it's a really significant holiday or it's not bigger than Christmas. But it's kind of the kickoff to the Christmas season two. So one Thanksgiving is over. Then we're bombarded with, you know, the Christmas commercials and the Christmas songs and the radio and like it's time to buy stuff. It's like right off you guys. It's exciting. So So you're in a place called Kensington in Yes, Dairyland. Can you tell me a bit about I did a bit of googling. I was actually really interested in your weather. I have this thing what people's weather's like. So you're in? You're in winter over there now? Yes, yes. So cold, windy. Every once in a while we'll have a nice day. That get air will get up to like 60 Because it's fall. But for the most part, it's pretty cold and windy. Like 30 degrees ish is the average at this point. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a quick conversion and see what that is in Celsius. Yeah. Oh, that's alright. Hang on. I'm gonna look it up. We're about 10 miles outside Washington DC. Maybe a little less than that. Yes. Yeah. So is that like, minus one? So? I mean, 32. Freezing? Yeah. So it's not terrible. It's actually been a pretty mild fall so far. But yeah, it hurts your face. Well, where I live, we do not get anywhere near that. Like, I'm complaining when it's like 13 degrees, which what would that be for you? Hang on, let me put that in proper. What you can 13 Celsius is like 55. Right. So really, so that's cool. That's our code. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice. You probably be appreciating that right now. That's a beautiful day here. So Is it snowing there? Do you get saved? No, it's not snowing. So, um, I mean, today I think they said it was gonna be a high of 45 which is not too bad. I can still walk the dogs and be okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that hang on. I've got to look that up. That's seven. Okay, so that's, that's okay. So seven. Yeah, yeah. So your style of art is to realism and symbolism. Am I right in saying that? Can you explain for people like me who aren't into like, understand, what does that mean? So surrealism is you are creating work that looks realistic, but it's often an unrealistic setting. So sometimes the juxtaposition of things that don't really make sense together. Surrealism is often described as dreamlike. It looks like maybe it's came from my imagination, which it did. But in most instances of my work, I'm using my own experiences. And I'm kind of putting it together together in a way that makes sense to tell a story. So it's not an exact memory. It's not like a snapshot of a moment in time. It's more of, you know, how I was feeling in the moment and exploring how I can express those feelings visually, and put symbols in there that have sort of a deeper meaning. And my work, really, it is autobiographical, but I, I want people to be able to look at it and relate to these emotions. Yeah, lately. Yeah. So that's something that started out as something that that triggered from your life, but the themes are sort of common that anybody could relate to that from their own experience in life, I suppose. Yes. Yes. So I address a lot of anxiety, depression, mental health issues. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's very common theme, isn't it? For people? Yeah. Yeah. That's very hot right now. Yeah, for sure. So the symbolism I'm interested in because one of my guests I had earlier on was an art historian. And she was talking about how she looks here. Her specialty was the long 18th century. And she was talking about how she looks at the art and, you know, tries to decipher I suppose, what was going on, and all that sort of thing. So I guess that's the symbolism sort of ties in people could look at that. And I guess it's subjective to like, people could take it. However, they needed to, I guess, couldn't they? It's not necessarily everybody. Yeah. And that's why I like talking about my art. But a lot of times, I like people to tell me about what they see in my art and how it makes them feel and how it relates to their story. Because I think that's the most interesting part. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So what sort of mediums do you use in your art, so I'm mostly an acrylic painter right now. I have used oils in the past but I am working out of a very small office space in my home. So acrylic is just the easier medium to use. And I try to I try to sometimes put things materials in there that wouldn't be expected. For example, I will stitch with embroidery floss directly on the canvas. So you may not see it as well in pictures but if you were to see the work in person, you can see that you know, this eye is stitched on with thread or these flowers are are sewn onto the canvas. The piece behind me as a piece has some lace on it. I also do use textural elements such as cracks. I use this paste called crackle paste and it kind of you put it on and as it dries, it creates these kinds of cracks and it reminds me of, you know, dried Earth maybe like a desert. So yeah, yeah, but And now we'll use a little bit of wash for details which Um, I recently discovered is very, very fun to work with. So yeah, what is that code? Wash? It's, um, so it's I recently discovered it, it's an acrylic medium, but it's, it works almost like an oil or a watercolor, it's very easy to blend. They're little tiny tubes. So it is quite expensive. You're not gonna like paint a whole painting. But a lot of people use it for works on paper and for realistic things. So I'll use it often on the face, or on the small details of a painting. Yeah, and it's just kind of a slightly different. It doesn't dry as fast as acrylic. So you are able to blend it. So it's kind of like almost like, like how oil you can it doesn't dry very fast. So you can keep blending it to make it look more realistic. Yeah, yeah. So that things like delays, I guess is sort of, sort of reflective of like emotions. And I don't know, it's like you're creating all these different elements. Yes. Make sense? No, yeah, totally. And I just, I do I mean, each kid has has a lot of layers, because I feel like each, like each person, especially when I'm addressing women and mothers, it's like, we all have these, like, layers that we keep putting on ourselves to cover our real selves and to hide who we really are. Maybe not to hide it, but you know, it just we get lost in there. You know, you're somewhere underneath all those layers. Yeah, yeah. That's quite, quite good way of putting it. Is that that identity? Is that Yeah, it's a massive thing, isn't it? This the concept that you're, you're a woman. And then all of a sudden you have a child and your entire life has changed the way you think about yourself changes the way society views you is changes. And it's also almost you can sort of get lost in that, I think, is that is that? Absolutely. Yes. And I actually had my first child when I was 20. And I was still in college, university. And so my daughter right now is 15. In high school, and so I felt like really, I didn't even know who I was. I mean, we all struggle with Who am I but but you know, at 20 You have no idea. Yeah. So I really didn't and, and so that did become so much of who I was. And my entire life. So I never really lived as an independent adult. Without being a mother. So I was a mother like, bam, and then yeah, I'm a grew up. Yes, that's right. No, I mean, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I mean, that was the you know, biggest growing experience of my entire life. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you first getting to your, your painting and your artwork? Um, so I actually I always was the artist at school, I always was doing little caricatures and drawings of teachers and, and people in my class and and I kind of hated it. Actually, I didn't like being the artist I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be the athlete, or I wanted to be the singer. I didn't want to be the artist. I thought that was boring. So I kind of tried to like, downplay it and push it back. But when I got to high school, I had some really great art teachers. And I you know, all my lectures were art classes, gone to college actually got rejected for being an art major, because my portfolio is so disorder is not you know, me college was not, I wasn't if I completely understand why I was rejected. It was like, completely thrown together. I was probably like, late on it too. But I decided to become an art minor because I didn't need to be accepted into any program to do that. I just You declared art I was a history major and in our minor, yes. So I did work for those courses. And, you know, I loved it, but I wasn't going to, you know, become a full time artists because that just wasn't a realistic option ever. And then I got offered a job as an art teacher, by an old teacher of mine who I just happened to run into, and she's like, Oh, you're an artist, you want to teach art. And I was, yeah. That was my first job. I had a daughter's at that point. She was one. So I, you know, I had to take the job. I taught art, which was great. And I would do a little bit of drawing, you know, for lesson planning and my free time, but I really didn't have time to devote to my art as much. But you know, in the beginning, I was really painting just things that I thought people would like, everyone's well, some come to me with the condition and, oh, can you paint my house, like, a painting of my house? Or can you pay a portrait of my dog or things like that. So I wasn't really painting for myself, I was, I was just, you know, make a little extra money here and there. It really wasn't until the birth of my third my son Wallace that I started painting during his naptime. Because in the States, we don't have any type of maternity leave. So I, it was either I had my third child, it was either like go back to work, and pay an astronomical amount of childcare, or just stay at home with my kid. And, you know, so I stayed at home, and then, you know, he had a study naptime. And that was my, my time to paint. And that's when I really started to, you know, paint for myself and just paint for the pleasure of painting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there a trigger at that point to, to encourage you to go back to painting or was just something, you sort of just thought, Oh, I just want to do this. Yeah, it was, it was, well, actually, there was an event we our basement flooded. And so we had a spare bedroom in the basement. And I had been kind of painting out of it. But you know, like I said, before, not really, painting work for myself, it was more of, you know, these little side jobs. And when the basement flooded, we had to completely refinished the basement, change the flooring, you know, like, pull everything up. And I told my husband, I was like, you know, I really think instead of a spare bedroom down there, let's just put some cheap tile down. And I'll make it my art studio. And so that was really what really pushed me to start creating and then I had this big space to create and, and experiment and just make a mess. And that was like, such an exciting time. For me. Oh, that sounds awesome. I'm really taken by the colors that you use in your AU. I mean, I get the vibes that you're a spiritual person. He's from like chakras or like, is it? Like head? Is there a connection there? Or is it just totally intuitive or so, um, it's interesting, I grew up Catholic and, like going to Catholic school for 13 years of my life and very strict upbringing. But as I you know, especially as became a mother and became more comfortable in myself and who I was, I have explored, you know, spirituality in a wider sense. I'm not restricted to any sort of traditional faith. And I do have my Reiki level one training so I do and really use the chakra colors. And I do you know, only I practice taro which you know, as a child was told that I was summoning the devil sort of thing. You know, as a as an adult woman. It's like I know what works for me spiritually. And I know how to explore my own intuition. And I'm not really like I'm not afraid of being judged anymore for those sorts of things. Yeah, but I do, I try to use the softer, more feminine girlish pinks. And because it reminds me of my childhood, and a lot of my work is trying to go back and find that inner child and find what she enjoyed and what brought her joy and made her happy and gave her life. Yeah, so so much of my work is going back in time. And it is sometimes dark or subject matter. So I use the the kind of bright colors to almost reframe it and make it a little more digestible. Because, you know, if the subjects I was painting, were painted in, you know, dark, gloomy colors, that's just for me, that's not life, life is a balance of light and dark. Yeah, so, you know, the bad things happen. But something, something is coming out of that some, some kind of treasure is coming out of a bad event, it's always going to even out. So I do try to make my you know, even if my subject matter is death, or, you know, fear or abandonment, or trauma, I do try to keep these kinds of inviting colors into the piece because I do want people to bring it in and kind of reframe their mindset about certain things. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying, okay, so this is, this is gonna be tough. This is hard. But you know, what, you can look at it through different eyes, you don't have to see it as a, you know, a really big scary, massive negative thing. Right? Right. It's almost like it's almost like a form of therapy, you know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely is in creating, the series that I'm most known for is the unmasking the self. And it wasn't, it had nothing to do with COVID I started this. I did this series in 2019. But I do have the masks, because I feel like as young girls, from an early age, we're very much conditioned to wear masks to hide our emotions. And so my whole life, I've struggled with depression and anxiety and just, you know, put on the mask, smile, perform, be a good girl, you know, do all the things for everybody. And, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure. And I think that especially little girls are under enormous pressure, whereas boys are kind of given a pass and boys will be boys and, and but girls are there's a much higher standard that they're held to. There's an account that growing up and I feel it, I felt it for my daughter. And and I have to I have two boys that, you know. I mean, things are changing, obviously. But the series was really born out of that hole. Who am I? What is my identity? And did I ever really even have one even as a child, you know, like, it's something you really you are hidden under layers of masks and different personas and different identities that people depend on you. And as a mother, it just becomes heavy and you're aware. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I had a look on your website at the, at those pictures of your work. And it's just it's so profound, like when you start thinking about that stuff. Like it's how we start off the day starting with anything. Yeah, man, like, so you're right, having that. That attractive, sort of outside layer. It allows you to venture in without fear. I think you can sort of start to creep into it. And yeah, yes, it's very inviting. So you have three children. So your oldest 15. So I have a son who is nine. Yep. And then I have a son who is five. And my five year old is on the autism spectrum. So that was another big moment in our lives too. kind of reevaluate what it meant to raise a child. And because we had a two before who were semi nurse. But my middle one is, you know, we're still we're still getting evaluated. But the youngest CEO, he wasn't speaking. And he just, you know, would, he was quirkier, and you know, would have the meltdowns and so but when the diagnosis came back, it was very shocking to me, I was not expecting it. But, I mean, he is the most amazing human being in the world. And he is, he did a program for two years for children on the spectrum, intense therapy. And now he is in a neurotypical classroom with a teacher's aide, and he's doing fantastic. But yeah, that was a, you know, that was another dark period that I've illustrated in my work. And just the whole stigma around autism, and you know, something as something that needs to be cured. It's not something that needs to be cured. It's just a completely different, it's a different way that your brain works. And all of our brains work differently. And so I'm kind of, I do I am very passionate about, you know, autism advocacy, and just reframing it like, this isn't some tragedy, this is actually an amazing gift for my son. I mean, he's just the most amazing little human being sees the world in such a way that you I mean, that brings joy to him and brings joy to the people around him. And we all love Wallace. And he is so incredible. It's this, like, amazing little light being rainbow soul who just has these amazing ways of thinking and speaking and seeing the world and yeah, so it's really been such a great gift to us as a family. Yeah, absolutely. can sort of allows you to, to change your perspective on things or look at things in a different way. And, yeah, yeah. That's all always a you know, one of my fears. Because it's like it, like You're conditioned to think that it is, you know, so terrible. And in for some people, it is a big struggle. And I'm very lucky that we had him in early intervention therapy, and he has just grown so much. Yeah. And yeah, it's amazing. And his siblings are amazing. With him. Yeah. So it's really great. Yeah, that's awesome. Any of you children artistic as well? Do? You know, while this would be the most artistic it's, and my son Leo, my middle. He loves football. Loves in it. American football. Yep. So he loves to draw football fields from every NFL team. But that's kind of the center of it. He's not going to draw any other picture. He's not going to draw a family portrait. It's literally just binders full of different football fields. And then he'll have little numbers and scores are involved. Yeah, but then Wallace Wallace really does like to come into the studio with me and he likes the sensory aspect of he likes touching the knee, you know, the wetness the feelings. And then my daughter who's 15 is a brilliant musician. Yeah. So she's not really interested in you know, visual arts but she's pretty I mean, she's pretty amazing guitar piano she can pick anything up and yeah, good. That's awesome. So you recently created an Instagram page for artists in the Kensington area. So you're very passionate about sharing community? Yeah, tell us tell us how you came up decide to do that. You know, I I really just believe that we, we grow and we share and and it's good for all of us to kind of like rise by lifting each other up and I I feel like having a daughter in high school, you kind of are forced to go back into that dark period where girls are cutting each other down constantly. And I do live in this amazing community of Kensington, it's a very, it's a small town, outside of DC. And, you know, we can walk to all these small businesses, little boutiques, little antique stores, thrift stores, we've got a couple of food places, it's like, my kids can literally walk, if they want to, you know, pick up a sandwich for lunch or get a soda. And that's something that in the DC area isn't that common, you know, it's a lot of commuting, a lot of driving. And in our area, we have this nice little perfect place where we can walk everywhere, and the neighbors are so friendly, and everyone knows each other. And I know so many artists just in my community. And I realized that we were all working very independently, you know, everyone's we all give each other a shout out or whatever. But I really just wanted to, like bring us all together and be like, Guys, this is really special, you know, that we have so many artists in our little community. And I want to eventually create, curate some shows, do some public, you know, shows or maybe even open a gallery, two years down the road, but just kind of tapping into this creative economy that's in our community that's so valuable, but it's just not seen very much. And a lot of these women are mothers working out of their homes. So we don't have much studio space in the community. And I just kind of wanted to bring awareness to that. Because people you know, around the holidays, especially everybody's looking for this special gift, and everyone wants to buy from artists in our community. So I thought by putting this together and kind of having it be a landing page for everyone, and just promote everyone, all of them and, and just bring us together and have this kind of be like a united force in the community. So I love that. And I think also too, it shows, there's no, there's no ego of like, you're not competing with anyone, you know, it's like you're welcoming everybody. It's not saying, Oh, yours is better Rios there. It's like, it's just a supportive group, you know? Exactly. And I feel like that's what I really needed. Because I was finding that in, in the city in Washington, DC, I was finding communities of women that I would, you know, be a part of, and I would support and they would support me, but right in my backyard, you know, I can walk to, you know, five artists houses right now, you know, and I'm like, let's do it here. Let's do it here. I don't have to drive into the city to get my community of artists. I can build one right here. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so special. It's something that you know, you can you can help grow and foster that. And yes, yeah, I love that. Turning back to what we're talking about earlier about, you said something. Well, the way I'm remembering it might not be the exact words but it was to do with not worrying what people thought. And I want to just read out a quote that you wrote on your Instagram page. You said, after years of hating myself, I am proud of myself, I painted this huge effing painting behind me and I love it. I don't care if you like it, or anyone else likes it. I love it. My work is powerful and meaningful. And that's a really profound statement. That's like, it is so like, you just, it's just your truth. Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I feel like once once the layers come off, and the ego comes off, and yeah, that sounds a little ego. You know, no, I'm with you. Yeah. But I you know, once you start worrying about people judging you and what others think of you when you more worry about like, No, I'm going to be true to myself and my authentic self and express that to people, you give other people permission to do this. Same. And if we are all, you know, trying to raise the vibration of humanity and, and work towards becoming our authentic selves and discovering our truth and our gifts and our talents, then everybody wins. So, you know, all the people walking around trying to people pleasing, be everything for everybody. And this kind of whole narrative of motherhood is the murderer, and sacrificing. And the first thing that sacrifice is like, your sense of self, right? It's just like you are not, you're just a vessel, and you're just a feeding machine and a maid and a cook. And, and all these things rolled into one that, like, you're so much more than that, like, they're everybody has their unique talents and gifts. And, you know, I did hide mine for so long, like, as a younger child, and even as an adult, not really finding out like what, oh, make a few bucks here, but what's the value of it, but I think that through Instagram, as annoyed as I get with him, it is a great, powerful tool to connect people and to, I mean, to inspire people, I'm so inspired by so many artists. And when I created an interview, I had no idea there were so many inspirational artists, so many artists that I could fall in love with their work, and just so moved by their work. And it just, it's amazing. And if we all just kind of get to a point where we can say, this is me. And this is my work. And if you don't like it, whatever. No, I didn't make it for you. I made it for me. Yeah, yeah. So I absolutely love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that and put it in my quotes, because that honestly, I feel like I had a similar sort of Revelation. At some point. I'm not sure exactly when, but in. In my childhood, I did a lot of singing competitions, it was sort of something that we had to do. And there was this massive emphasis placed on getting a prize getting a place winning. So there was this. Yeah, this huge connection between for me between singing and being good or being better than someone or someone telling you, you were good. You know, this adjudicator this one person saying, I liked you better than that person, you know, this validation came from other people. And as I've gotten older, it's like, it's the same thing. What literally what you just said, I don't care if you don't like it, because I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for me. And I think, because like, any form of art is so subjective. You know, there's plenty of art that I might not necessarily like or love, but I can appreciate that the person that's done it is done an amazing job in creating that, and they've poured a piece of themselves into this, you know, whether it's music or dancing, or, you know, visual art, you know, so I think, yeah, I've come a long way, in, in many years of just accepting and, and I still put myself up for different competitions, but in different ways, like online or writing competitions. And if I don't win, it's like, that's fine. Because it wasn't my time, you know, I can see that everyone's on their own journey. And even just as recently as last last Thursday night, I was in Adelaide for a competition and, and I didn't win it, and I had no pangs of wish it was me, I mean, would have been nice to win. But I can see that that person, that one that was there on their journey, it's this is their time, you know, and it's other incredibly freeing and empowering to be able to take away that you just feel you feel unencumbered, you just feel light and, you know, yes. Once we remove the need to be validated by others, that is such a like, that is such a turning point. And obviously, of course, I still do get caught up in that a lot. It's not I'm on a journey and evolving and not yet. But I'm definitely like at the beginning when I first created my Instagram, it was like, I really was putting work online because I wanted people to like it. Obviously I wanted people to follow me I wanted people to buy my art and and that's the kind of work I was putting out and then a curator actually asked me who is Sarah Renzi Sanders, the artist. And I was like, I don't know. I it was a really hard question. It really caused me to like, like Who do I want to be? I can be any what I want. But I definitely don't want to be this person just creating, like boring abstracts that people like, so that they will sell. I want to be more than that, you know, so I want, I want my work to touch people, I want my work to inspire people, I want my work to move people, I don't just want to create something pretty to match someone's couch, you know? Yes. And I feel like I know a lot of artists who still aren't doing that and have been doing it for years. And that's their business model, and it works for them. But for me, I think I want to create more of a legacy than, you know, a financial IQ. I mean, obviously, I like I like money. There's nothing wrong with money, but I know what you mean. Yeah, it's not my first it's not my number one, you know, it's not my number one priority. So, yeah, I understand the journey, just the journey, every rejection is a stepping stone to getting where you want to be. So, you know, everybody's been rejected numerous, there's no one successful that hasn't been rejected 1000 times. So yeah, it's interesting, use that analogy. I interviewed a lady in Australia, just a couple of days ago. And she used the same sort of that imagery of she had to sort of she was saying that she was meeting getting to these like roadblocks then she'd have to change direction and, and someone said to her, why don't you look at that, instead of a block, you change direction, and you're going across like a lily pad and you have to go across you had to go to this one. It wasn't a straight line. And she said once she changed that in her mind, that way of looking at it just totally changed. And that's the same thing like the stepping stones. It's not you know, rarely is anything in life in a straight line. You know, we take that turns and and end up with Yeah, totally, totally. Growth is not linear. It's like a big ball of wool or something. It's just like. Topic that that I talk about a lot on my podcast is mommy guilt. And I believe it's something that probably is a resonates across all boundaries, like nationalities, countries, that kind of thing. Is that something is mum guilt, sort of a term that you've heard much of or you've got some opinions on? You know, I have heard it. And I do know women, estate's mostly women that are working full time, that have that mom guilt, I am lucky enough to, you know, be home and working while my kids are in school, and then I pick them up, and then I'm home with them for six more hours. And chauffeuring them to various activities. So um, I don't really have it, because I also feel like, it's, it's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me singing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly. That you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I could not have put that better myself. That is brilliant. Absolutely love that. Like, the more I talk to moms, the more that I think that society is the one driving this Mum, do you like the judgment? The judgment that you get from, you know, other mums and social media this perception of what a mum has to be done Um, yeah, and people are going hang on a minute, I don't buy into that, like, like you said, what I'm doing, I'm not neglecting my children, I'm, you know, I'm doing something for myself, that's going to make me, you know, feel better about my mothering role when I come back to them, you know, in a few I'm going to feel fulfilled, so that I can give myself more fully to my children. Exactly, exactly. And you're right about the social media pressure. And there's this whole culture, which I'm sure you know, about the mom influencers, and you know, and they're perfect little children, and they're perfect matching outfits, and, you know, and it's, to me, just so I feel like these women are, are sacrificing so much of themselves for this identity of perfection in motherhood. And I just don't understand how you could be authentically happy when your life is, you know, taking pictures of your children, making sure they look perfect. And you know, I'm not gonna send out Christmas cards this year. Sorry, I just know, I don't have any pictures of my kids like, altogether smiling. So you know, and I think that's okay. And I give myself permission to say, Yeah, you know, I do Christmas cards every other year. Yeah, yeah. And I just don't, I don't have the time to battle with my children until like, bribe them with candy and, and get maybe a mediocre picture of them sitting on the porch. And them all hate me for the rest of the day, because they had to sit in the cold and get a picture. You know, and like, I'm not the mom taking my kids to the pumpkin patch. And, you know, putting them on top of Tompkins. And you know what, I'm just not that person. Yes. And a lot of people, it's just like, they automatically think, well, if I don't do this, I'm not if I don't take my kid to the pumpkin, but it's just in the states. The Pumpkin Patch is a big fall activity. Yeah. Which I don't really buy into, because I'm like, I don't understand it. But it's a good photo op, I think for the moms. Yeah. And yeah, no, I we just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of a lot of it's like, people were coming back to that judgment thing. Like, people have to show that they're doing something or people who literally, if it didn't, if it's not on social media, it didn't happen. You know, everything's got to be on social media and, and it's almost like, Who are you trying to justify? Are you trying to make yourself feel better? Like, what are you why are you doing this? Like, yeah, justify your role as a mother that I Oh, I spend lots of time with my kids. I'm trying to make myself feel better about it. Or, you know, is it for other people to say, Oh, wow, they're doing lots of stuff, you know, like, my exhausting, you know, to me, like you're talking about these masks, like, it's a facade that they're putting up, they're creating this pretend life. Right? And that's, I mean, with my daughter, you know, now she's on social media, of course. And it's, it's just, I want to show her that no, this isn't like, this isn't real. These girls that you see with their filters on and perfectly dressed and posing places like, that's, that took that to take that picture, took a lot of work. And it's not like this perfectly, like little snapshot of my life, this is very much set up. This is a this is very curated. This, you know, this person in real life, they don't look like that. And I do like a lot of people that do it, it, it's almost like, I think with the motherhood thing, there's that loss of identity. And they maybe feel like by creating this diary of images that are perfect. It is like more concretely like, Oh, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is who I want to be. And this is where I want to show the world. But it doesn't come from a deep place. And that's where it becomes problematic. Yeah, that's it's not authentic. It's not. They're not living the truth, I suppose. Right. Right. Yeah, I think authentically, like you become your authentic self, and you express that and then the right people are attracted to you. I tell my daughter all the time, because you know, at 15 You're going through so many friend troubles and morphing of groups and, you know, drama, teenage drama, and I'm like, if you just be yourself, be true to yourself and the right people come to you and I didn't learn that until I was probably like, 33, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long journey to get there for sure. But when it happens, it happens. And yeah, I mean, I've so I went through a period of my life where I probably had no close friends for about 10 years. And then most recently, it's just like, I have all these people I really enjoy talking to. And we really connect. And it's, it's because I've done the internal work, it's because I'm expressing myself and who I am. And, you know, the people that are at that point in their life at that vibration are attracted to authentic people. So yeah, yeah. I've recently talking to other artists, mothers, it's hard to apply to things sometimes and not feel like there is an aspect of, you know, well, we mainly don't want a mother to be the artists resident, or we maybe don't want a mother to be the face of it just because she's always busy. Or she always has other things going on. Or her life so chaotic already, you know, like, there are these, like, certain excuses, I feel like that people make for not working with artists, mothers. And it wasn't until I talked to my friend the other day that I really realized that and she said something like, about posting her kids on her social media, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, like, doesn't man ever have to think about, you know, posting a picture of his child affecting his career? No, he doesn't. In fact, it probably it does boost his, you know, his like ability to get jobs because people are like, Oh, he's a dad, he has a family to provide for but for women, it's a totally different. It's like, oh, well, you know, she has all this work to do at home. And she has all these responsibilities. But I'm like, I mean, me anymore. We are the hardest working people on the planet. Saying I have the time to do this. I have the time to do it. I want to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you talked about before the taro Have you ever done or thought about having, like creating a deck with your honor? Yes. That is probably what's coming next for me. Yeah, so the whole thing was, I had this really creepy story happen. And it's, it was a few years ago, and I was visiting my grandmother's grave, and my grandmother is very, very close to my house. So I do visit her quite often. And I went to her grave, and there was a little like walking path above above her grade. And on the walking path, there was this velvet blue bag, like a little pouch. And I was like, what is that and I kind of opened it and peeked inside and it was a deck of tarot cards. And I was, you know, I love that kind of stuff. But, um, but I was also a little bit like, am I supposed to take this or do I? So I texted my whole family like what do I do? They're like, don't take it, don't take it like that is not when you don't want that, you know? And so I was like okay, but I think it means something. So I I did take a picture of the first card on top and then I looked up the deck and I actually found it online and I ordered it and it is influenced so much of my work and it has been so spot on. But yeah, I think it's kind of like a psychological tool where Anybody can do it. And anybody can interpret what it means for them at that point in their lives. So it's not really this whole, you know, like I was taught in grade school, you know, summoning the devil or like, this tool of Satan, it's, it's, it's literally a card of beautiful pictures and you shuffle it and you choose some and then you decide how that relates to your life and if that's gonna give you guidance, or tell you what next step to take, or maybe just how to have how to change your mindset about something. So, so I do think that that is coming for me and I have sketched out a few things, but, you know, that's like a long term project. But, ya know, I definitely think my grandmother said that to me and was like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah, cuz you know what, when I started looking through your work, I was just instantly had this like, Oh, these need to be on tarot cards, because this is you know, that. Yeah. Like, there's I mean, there's definitely a big influence on my work. Yeah. Sorry, go. Now go. Oh, no, I was gonna say even before I was creating this body of work, I was creating like a more abstract, like, I don't know, if you're familiar with like, paint boring. It's very trendy right now. It's old, like, yeah, liquid paint boring. So I was doing a series of those. And I was naming them as for cards, you know, like two of cups are to me up because of the cards from my grandmother. And it was like, Oh, well, I did this one the day I found it. And that was the that was the card that was on top. So yeah, so I was even before I was creating the stuff that actually looks like Taro. Yeah, definitely going to do that. That is Yeah, no, I'm bored. And I will get some because that is beautiful connection as much. A lot of my work kind of addresses that tension between you growing up in a super Catholic environment and Hoekman and what? You know, those feelings of like, I'm doing something bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Like, we need thinking for myself and exploring my own spirituality is bad. I need to just do what the grownups you know, and my sister and I would be like, you know, locked in our we would have we had a little walk in closet that we shared no room and we would read each other's cards, and we had our crystal ball and, and I definitely grown up to be that person. Like, I have a crystal ball. And we make cards every day. And I meditate every day. Yeah, yeah. But it was something that you had to hide away because it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. I wanted to ask you about your other project that you do you mix media Madonna, is that? Is there sort of a Yeah, to do with that traditional. You know, practice religion. It's so interesting, because i People often ask me, oh, are you like very Catholic and I was raised Catholic, and I am a part of I do believe that's part of my culture, and my cultural upbringing. You know, my grandparents came from Italy. And, you know, I grew up with, you know, the Madonna in these pictures in their houses in their homes and bring the rosary a lot. But I moved my mixed media data, I do try to kind of bring my own twist on Mary and make it more about worshiping the idea of the mother. You know, this is like, the mother is so often forgotten, and I really want to highlight the mother and I used to teach a big lesson on the the evolution of the way Mary was painted in art history. And she went from being you know, this kind of stoic, you know, very embellished icon. Due to being, you know, kind of like Raphael portraying her like a woman of the day, like during the Renaissance, like she was portrayed, she wasn't portrayed like, Mary traditionally in, you know, in her time she was portrayed, like, this is a mother or a normal woman that I'm painting, and I'm painting her in the clothes of the day with a very thin Halo, and she's becoming human. And relatable. Yeah. And so, I do, I just am fascinated by all the different cultures in all the different ways of, like, visualizing marry, and kind of making it my own and, and making it you know, more, more than the religion, I think it's like, the the Motherhood is the most simple and the spirituality of just connecting to the mother of all, you know, yeah, and I use, you know, prayer books and people send me like, literally antique postcards and things like that. And I'll find books in all bookstores. And it really is just like magic to kind of find all these pieces and put them together in a more beautiful way, because I feel like she was always always just seen as like, oh, it's Jesus's mom. It's Jesus's mom. And even in Catholicism, you know, we do elevate Mary a lot more than other religions, but I've wanted to be something more than that. And just something that every woman can kind of look at and be like, oh, yeah, like, I like I like this. You've had people that are like, I, you know, I'm Jewish. I'm not religious at all. But I really like this piece speaks to me. And that's kind of what I want it to be more of, like a, like, this isn't just for Catholic people. This is for everybody. Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a hard balance. Because, you know, some people are like, whoa, like, I'm not religious. I'm, you know, but I think it's a little more than that. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that universal sort of message of Allah. It is. That's what it is. That's actually what it is. It's yeah. And that's how it came out. I mean, yeah, it was, like, totally born of love. And just, in me being a mother and just, this is another mother that I'm going to celebrate. And and you know, it is mostly mothers that buy a lot of people buy them for gifts for their mothers or for you know, yeah, but and they're all different. And I tried to make each one very, I mean, at this point, I've probably made around 50 of them, I would think that you know, are just out there in different places. But I just keep making them and even if I have the same image like I have a lot of Raphael because Raphael did a lot of Madonna's but if I have the same image I still want to make it like different different colors different flowers, different elements. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just imagining them would look nice up here and we're making a whole dashes them right now. I was trying to get it done for you know, Black Friday which is this American holiday that everyone shops on but not finished yet. You could make make your own shopping I just want to have some for the holidays for people to buy, you know because because I don't sell my large pieces. So you know, the way I make a little bit of money is Prince would Madonna's release Have you got anything on the go at the moment any projects or series that you're working on? That you want to share? Tell us about her. Um, so I have started working on these large abstract pieces and they they're kind of could be described as more graphic abstract, sharper lines. And like, you know, boom, bright colors. I do a lot of third eye stuff, which I've done my entire career but it's way mo here. This one is in progress. So but you know, it's more of like Like, inspired by nature, but yeah, like more of a very symmetrical Yeah, structured vision. And I do get these when I meditate every day. And I do, sometimes, especially around the full moon, get these kind of like, very clear images in my head, that when I come out of meditation, I'll sketch them really quick. And then I just there they come, they come pretty quick, and it's easy to pick the colors. And I use kind of my standard color palette that I use for my other series just, I just decided I'm just going to always take with my favorite colors, and it makes it a lot easier because then everything looks kind of cohesive, even though you know, this, the style is so different. But you know, I've been I, I've submitted a few to some open calls, and I been rejected for those. So, you know, I mean, I've been rejected for every everything I've ever painted at some point, but so, you know, we're still working through that kind of my artists statement for those pieces and not try. You know, I tried to sound authentic, but at the same time, sometimes people are like, Sarah, like, bring it down a little bit. Like, with all the woowoo like, yeah, manifestation stuff, and I'm like, okay, to put that was actually meant to say that, like, you know, why should you have to tone yourself down? Like, maybe they're not the right people to talk to you absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. I just think that my own art practice has made me a better mother, even if that means less time with my children, I think that we all need to figure out that balance and, and what we need to keep us sane, because it's very easy to just spiral into this kind of loss of self and just becoming shells of people as mothers. And I feel like having something of your own as a mom, and not just a career, but something of your own. More than a hobby, a passion, you know, is so important. And I just think every, every mother needs that outlet for themselves. And to remember that, like, I am a separate entity, I'm human in myself, I am not just, you know, because we often feel like we're just like, walking around with children attached to us. And, and with all of the, our, I've painted the woman, you know, with all the arms before balancing all the things and yeah, and and we're so much more than that. And I think once motherhood starts being more valued, because it shouldn't be valued. I mean, we are raising the future of society. So there should be more emphasis placed on the value of mothers. And I think I think we're getting there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like each each generation is sort of pushing those boundaries and pushing the, the expectations of I'm going to say the patriarchal expectations, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, so each generation moving forward, you know, breaking ground and, hopefully, yeah, no, I think it is, I really, really truly believe that. That each of us, you need all the other moms that are out there elevating other women and, and motherhood. We're making a difference. And, and I mean, we're making a difference to our daughters. They're seeing us do this, and they're gonna do even greater things. So yeah, I truly believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to end on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your giving me all right. Thanks so much, Alison, is great talking to ya EJ. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat. We With an artistic mom