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WOLF is a 5 track EP, a deep dive into the uncomfortable subject of post natal depression. The Wolf plays the role of the PND and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood. I am taken over by the Wolf, consumed and destroyed. After the birth of my 1st child in 2008 I knew I was experiencing PND but never acknowledged it and never sought help. I was diagnosed after the fact. Fast forward 7 years later when I had my 2nd child, I experienced an incredibly traumatic birth, culminating in an emergency C section, which almost claimed my child's life and left me with PTSD. The Wolf really came to get me, and I suffered severe PND. This time I sought help and with that help from many health professionals, medication and family support. was able to recover over time. Each track covers a different element or experience in my journey of my PND. The tracks run chronologically, so listening to the EP from start to finish will tell the entire story, from first realising it was back to returning to a normal life. My production team was based in Spain and Argentina, with my vocals recorded at home in Mt Gambier. The songs are in the style of a dark pop, full of melodramatic sounds, using effects to create the scene and tell the story, and layered vocals and harmonies to add more drama. I am a big believer in talking about mental health and breaking the stigma that goes along with it. I recorded a podcast with local mental health help group Lifeboat SE , in April 2019, I am also proud to be a community ambassador for the group. I am so passionate about sharing stories of creative mothers and the intersection of creativity and the mothering role. I do so through my podcast The Art of Being a Mum , which has been out since June 2021. Things Are About To Get Dark THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. MUSIC VIDEO This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks! Nigel Loveday Eastern FM Melbourne Free Me FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. Pieces of My Pain MUSIC VIDEO PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 I am at the cross roads - do I fight or allow the Wolf to completely take me over? Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and National Finalist Ready for Up MUSIC VIDEO READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellis 5GTR Fm Feel into You FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 MUSIC VIDEO The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through This trackmade the Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that give pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG RADIO 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 PRINT MEDIA The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 PODCASTS The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Enquiries to Elena Di Fiore - Maestro Media PR/Publicist contactus@maestromedia.com.au +61 420 221 773

Rebecca Smith Australian content creator and brand ambassador S1 Ep20 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rebecca Smith is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of NSW and a mum of twin boys. ​ Rebecca has a background as a copy writer, writing for Mindful Parenting Magazine and freelance model , and started her personal blog @ThatAchellesGir l (pronounced: A-KILL-EES) on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. ​ We chat about how becoming a mother lead to her current work role, the need for mums to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it, and why she is an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. ​ ** This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety ** ​ Rebecca's website and instagram Read more about Monti and Me toys Find out more about LifeBoat SE and Alison's podcast ​ .Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo- https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle, mental health and how children manifest in there. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music play, and a link to buy the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with the art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is reported on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with their lending, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thanks for your company today. My guest today is Rebecca. Rebecca is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of New South Wales and a mom of two printing. Rebecca has a background as a copywriter, writing for magazines such as mindful parenting, and has worked as a freelance model. She started her personal blog, that Achilles girl on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. Today, we chat about how becoming a mother led to your current work role. The need for moms to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it. And why she's an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. So today, I'd love to welcome Rebecca Smith to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on, Rebecca. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to chat. So I've been following you on Instagram. That's where I first came across you on Instagram, at that Achilli scale is the name of your site. So is there a bit of a story how you came up with that Achilles girl? Is that like, is there a story that you're saying it probably that's so music to my ears? Yeah, so Achilles is my maiden name. So I started doing all the work that I've been doing years before I got married, obviously. And I just kept that Achilles girl, as my instagram name, for two reasons. One was I just wanted to continue, I didn't want to lose all the work that I'd done. So I figured if I changed my name to that Smith Bell, who's that I had to start all over again, with all the stuff that I'd written online for publications, like I'd have no Google anymore, like, you know, history. And also, I did go to checks I felt guilty about not when I got married, I did become Smith. I took my husband's last name, but then I felt guilty for not using it on social media or all that crap. And some of our friends would say, I use Smith or Achilles. So I did go and check is that Smith girl available and it was not so even if I wanted to change it. I couldn't have so I just kept going with that Achilles girl. Yeah, yeah, she's just my family name. Yeah. And it's a memorable name, too. Like that Achilles girl, like you sort of, you know, sticks in people's minds, too. It's a good, good. Well, yeah, yeah, I hope so. I don't know. It's more it just feels like it's me. Whereas that Smith girl is a new Smith is a new identity for me. It doesn't feel like me. So, yeah, that's where the name came from. Anyway. Yeah, for sure. So, on your Instagram, you sort of brand yourself as a content creator, a brand ambassador. You haven't been doing that forever. What did you sort of start off with? Yeah, so I started off with creative writing and copywriting so copywriting is like a form of advertising and marketing. You know, copywriters, they they write thing not everyone knows it's not anything to do with legal stuff. Like copyright law. It's actually a form of writing that encourages someone to buy a product or booking your service. So it's salesy. I mean, that's like, that you might hear on Yeah. Yachty Yes. Yeah, I did a little website copy. So I started my own business as a copywriter while I was working as a PA for like a criminal lawyer. So I did both jobs for a long time. And I loved copywriting and then basically, to summarize what happened, I got pregnant, and was I had really severe fatigue. So I couldn't really just do anything and couldn't make my brain work. I just decided to just throw in the towel and relax and enjoy being pregnant. So I stopped Everything for a couple of years. And then it wasn't till I came back. After giving birth and becoming a mother that I tried copywriting again, it still didn't really my brain was just not there. I couldn't get myself to write like I used to. And that's when I went into content creation. Yeah, right. So like social media. Yeah. It's interesting. You talk about that sort of brain fog. That's a big thing is when you're pregnant, it's like the baby's supposed to suck out. Part of your Yeah, you're cognitively, not only not only when I was pregnant, but then after I gave birth, it's still lingered with me and only lifted lack. When we started sleeping properly, again, and the boys, our boys didn't really start sleeping properly until they were two and a half. Yeah. So now I feel like I'm getting my brain back a little bit. But it's crazy how much sleep deprivation affects everything. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I remember when I had had my first and someone made a joke that remember, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. That's where all my problems started. Honestly, the sleep deprivation. decline from there on once once I realized we weren't sleep, like gonna get any more sleep so you have twin boys, yes, be full on job. They're very full on. So they're turning three next month. So they arrived like a couple days before Christmas. So they're almost three. In a lot of ways, it's easier now that they are toddlers, and they're speaking a little bit. They can get snacks for themselves, you know, I found the newborn stage really hard. So I'm really loving the toddler stage, actually. But they still Yeah, they're just really high energy, really high energy and want your attention all the time. So it's, I find it very difficult to sort of try to get any work done. If I'm home alone with them, I pretty much just have to give up on getting anything done, which I really struggled with for a long time. Yeah. So in a practical sense, how do you manage your day to day trying to achieve what you want to achieve with your worksite? Yeah, well, I just make sure that I save my work for the middle of the day, when I know they're going to have about a two hour sleep. I actually work first thing in the morning at like 5:36am for an hour while my husband is home, and I'll have a coffee and I'll be in bed doing whatever emails or something just for an hour and then I wait until midday and do some more two hour in the two hour window. That's just pretty much how I do it. I've got two jobs. So one I need to be out of the house. And I'm you know what I mean? I'm not actually it's not a freelance job. I work in the salon doing beauty services twice a week. So you know, that's easy. My kids are either at daycare or with my parents, so they're not there. But the other freelancing stuff like content creation with brands, it is pretty tricky to there's so many things I want to do and I have to remind myself to you know, go slow and also not ignore the kids make sure that I'm spending quality time with them and stuff like that. So for that it's mostly when my husband's home or when they're napping any little minute I get I just sort of Yeah, I work actually. Try not great. You do you do what works you do you do what works. You touched on briefly there. Sort of I guess the the shift in identity from being able to do the things how you wanted whenever you wanted and then you've got these two little children and how to sort of adjust your thinking I suppose of this new life that you had. Yeah, how did you sort of approach that that change in identity? Not very elegantly, I found it really, really difficult. And I think because we had the twins it was like even more of an adjustment like it's not just one baby that you need someone to help you look after it's two seni two adults I'm still I honestly to this day, I still struggle with trying to work it out. And this is my new life and I just have to like, you know, do both but I'm very adamant to make it work to do both. I got as in I don't think that I would be happy being a stay at home mom, because I often think to myself like Even last week when I get really anxious if I'm really busy, and I go along, and I think, look, you can stop anytime No one's forcing you to do all this work. But then I think, well, I don't want to be a stay at home mom, I like having projects I like I like, you know, having that side of my life. So it's just a matter of taking the anxious days when they come and trying to be patient with myself and moving my work to another day, if it's all just not working out. It's yeah, I still sort of, I still struggle with it today, basically. Okay, you're not the only one that's that's a really common theme that comes up in these chats is that, and mums, I think it's so important to not forget that mums are still an actual person, we're not just a mum that exists just for children. So yeah, a lot of mums talk about having something that they need for themselves to keep themselves you know, fill up your cup and make yourself feel really fulfilled and excited about doing something for yourself. And then that sort of thing, obviously, helps you then go on with the other part of your life. Feeling, you know, feeling good about yourself, I suppose. If that makes sense. We'll say yes. Say my mom always told me. She didn't make time for herself. She didn't insist that she wanted to return to work when me and my brother were toddlers, my dad and her had an arrangement that she would be a stay at home mom and just focus on us kids. And my mom said to me later, when I was going through all this with my kids, I said to I just can't Mom, I'm like, I feel bad that I can't be a stay at home mom, but I just can't. I want to do the things that I want to do. And she said, You know, I support you because I really wish I'd done that. And that was really, I think she probably doesn't even remember that she said it to me. But it was it. I remembered it. And it was really special. That she did say that to me. And it made me feel better. And I thought it's not weird that I it's not weird that I want these things. And I you know, because I thought is am I Does anyone else feel like this? Like I no one just sort of bounce off because a lot of my friends were not having babies at the time. So I had to make new friends. Yeah. And then I learned that it was normal. But you know, in the beginning, I was just like, wow, what is this? Yeah, that's the thing. No one sort of sets you up in, you know, you do your prenatal class, and you learn all about baby stuff. But you never know and actually says to you, this is what you'll do. And this is normal. And you know, yeah, yes. You mentioned you, Mama, do you have people close by you to be able to help with the boys so that you can, you know, have some time to yourself? Yes, I do. I literally have my entire family helping me and my husband. And we're so lucky. I've got his parents that help every week, my parents and then my husband also is he's really good with the boys. He's super patient. He's like a swim teacher. So he, he's around kids all day, every day, you know what I mean? So it was less of a shock for him than me was never around children. So he's patient and he knows what to do when they tantrum and scream and he's just great. And he always wants to help me. You know, he does things he would get up in the night and bottle feed one twin while I said the other one, you know, when he still had to go to work the next day and stuff and didn't complain about it. So everyone helps me. Really lucky. That's yeah, that is so good. Yeah, yeah. I have a couple of friends who are like from the UK and they just have no family here. And no help. And I just think Well, I don't know how they do it. Yeah, honestly, I I'm the same as you. I've got my family. Sort of Yeah, you do. And I yeah, my mum. She moved from Melbourne to Matt Gambia. We're in this little town halfway between Adelaide, Melbourne. She moved over here, and had no one knew nobody apart from my dad, and then had these two children as a How the hell did you do that? Yeah, I take it for granted, I think because they're here that they're always able to help. But I think my goodness, you know, I take my hat off to people that that don't have help. Because that's, you know, yeah, it's important for the kids too, though. Like they it's nice for them to grow up with. You know, it helps you as the mom but it's nice for them to have, you know, other people around as well that they know, love them and are there for them. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a big it's a big commitment to help with grandkids and things I guess for some people but it's also a pleasure. So on both sides. Oh yeah. And it's interesting to see to see your own parents in this completely different relationship with the child. Totally. I don't even it funny. Yeah, treat like my dad especially. It's like who is this man? He's not. He wouldn't talk to me like that. Like he's just this different. Yeah, until the soft side comes out. Yeah, I mean saying that my dad always says I he's never changed and happy of me and my brother I don't think and then he will not change my son's either. I think he would get a hose out if he had to do anything when my mom wasn't there he's just hopeless with vomiting poo anything like that? Runny nose. least he knows his limitations. And you know he's prepared. Yeah. And with it. Do you agree entertainer? Switching back to the identity topic we were talking about when you were pregnant? Did you sort of have that in your mind? Like you were thinking at all? How life was going to change? Like Were you conscious of? I mean, I guess no one prepares you when it's different when the babies come out. But did you sort of start to think anything about you know what, how your life would be, or I totally pictured one thing. And I we decided to serve as my partner like 10 years. We got married when we were six or seven years into dating or something. And so it wasn't until we were married that I thought okay, yeah, I think we, I think I'd like to have a baby. And then so I pictured One thing, though. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean? To me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how's my how's my body going to change with two it was I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins and I think that now and I love their bond and I love being twin moms. But I didn't. You know I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant. Actually, once I found out. Look, that's understandable. I'd be exactly the same. So we've got we've got twin, my husband's family's got twins. His dad's okay. And then his brother had twins. So I was like, Oh, sweetie, but Yeah, same thing. Of course. In the end, I would have been, you know, delighted to have my children. But if Yeah, you have that that is that anxiety like, oh my gosh, like, I guess you're thinking how am I going to manage? You know, what's it going to be like? Double the work? And of course already, how's your body going to, you know, manage having two babies? Like it's huge. Yeah. It Yeah, it Yeah, it was really I had to get used to it. But I remember when we were having the scanned on the eight week mark and she said that there's two heartbeats. I like was trying really hard to not cry because I was so upset and my husband was like laughing and clapping his hands and he was so excited. And I was just thinking like, Oh, what are you excited about? But at the same time, I thought maybe this is okay. Because he's excited it would have been terrible if he was you know, reacting like I was so I'm very glad looking back that he was very positive about it. Because I was freaking out. Oh, my goodness. Talking about body and you do like modeling with for your brand work that you do now? Is that right? I do now? Yeah, I do now, but that's a new thing. I guess when I was a teen like 16. I did model and I was with an agency and I modeled for a few years. But I left the industry because I was very, I had really bad shyness and I wasn't very confident. My mom suggested I try modeling and sort of put me out there and I did work but I would just be so anxious and I did not like it if I left and I've only sort of found that confidence. Now that I'm like, nearly 30, so I'm happy to do it, but I'm only doing it on my own terms. So I don't I you know, I work with a photographer who is my contact and I know him and we work together for brands and I pick what I do. I don't do swimwear, I don't do laundry. You know what I mean? I do things that I find fun and they're gonna make me stressy or, yeah, that are not too out of my comfort zone. Yeah, for sure. The concept of mum guilt is something that I love to talk to my guests about too, is this whole idea. And, and it does tie in a fair bit with identity. But yeah, how do you feel about this? This mum guilt term and how it makes us feel, I suppose. Yes. I actually, I wrote an article on this. I used to write for mindful parenting magazine, you know, love at love. It's media. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. And I wrote an article about having mum guilt, but doing something anyway, that I had to guilt about. And it was basically you know, I, to answer your question, I do experience it all the time. And this particular time, our twins were teething, and they were just waking every hour overnight, and we had not slept for, I think, like, two weeks straight. And I was just like, on the verge of break down like I was, you know what I mean? You know, when you're so tired, it's just like, I can't do anything anymore. I need to just go. So I said to my husband, like, this is how I'm feeling he knew I had postnatal depression and anxiety at the time. So he was very supportive with helping me. And I know that he would have been exhausted too. And I had to just say to him, like, I know that you're tired. And I'm sorry to ask, but I need to just go sleep somewhere else for just one night. And I said, when I get back, you can go and do the same thing. But can I just go and I need to go now. And he was just like, yep. And so yeah, I wrote this article. It was, it was funny, though, like, I tried to make a lot hot, like, you know, a lot of it and I ordered a pizza and I had a bath and put my feet up and ate pizza in the bath. At this Airbnb that I stayed at, like, only 10 minutes away from our house. And just sort of in trying to encourage other mums to ask for help if you are experiencing something like that, and not feel guilty about it, but everyone does. So it's it's a constant thing. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think that the thing you say about how you feel it, but you do it anyway, I think that's really important. Because we are allowed to feel emotions, you're allowed to feel we are allowed to feel guilt. But yeah, unless it's something, you know, really bad. Why should we let that stop you from doing so if it's something like I feel bad about working and not being at home with my kids, or I feel bad about going and having a night away? Because I'm so sleep deprived? It's like, you've got to tell yourself, yes, but doing that? Well, I knew at the time, I'm going to come back as a better mother to be able to focus on my kids, if I can have a night off or, for me, I'm like, I'd be way happier way, way more present parent, if I can have my two, three days a week working. And, you know, focus on new kids the other days. So you know, things like that. You just got to have a little pep talk with yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And if it is really bad, you wouldn't do it anyway. Because you know that that maternal instinct is so strong, you know? Exactly, you know, it's not that bad drive down to the bottle shop and get a bottle of wine. Come back, you know, I like stuff like that and you said, as well about encouraging other moms to be able to be honest and open and ask for help. I think that's something that we don't do enough of because, I mean, I know I do. And I'm not sure if this is because I'm overthinker I'm a cancer so I tend to anticipate what other husbands are cancer. Oh, I love kids. Yeah, we're good. We're good sometimes when we're not being moody. Scorpio I'm apparently moody all the time, too. Yeah, right. I know. Everyone says that qualities too. My downfall is I tend to anticipate or make up a story in my mind, of, of what the other person's thinking. So instead of just I Once again, I'll go through this great big thing. Oh, they should know. You know, just Oh, yeah. Instead of just saying, Hey, can you put the kids to bed tonight? Because I really needed an early night, you know, as we would go, Yeah, no worries. And be like, yes. Why did I turn that into such a great thing? You know, we had so many of those arguments. So my husband said to me, I'm not a mind reader. Can you please tell me? Tell me this? Oh, tell me that. And I'd say you should know. And he'd be like, No, but like, I don't I'm sorry, but I don't. So can you just tell me next time? And I was like, office groundbreaking to me, like, ask I mean, sorry to tell you exactly what I'm thinking or I want and I was like, Oh, I can do that. Okay. Yeah. Like I just hadn't. I'd be sitting there like rooting like, oh, like Khan hate. I don't know, whatever it was at the time. Everything's a big deal when you got a newborn and you're tired? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's groundbreaking, isn't it? You can actually open your mouth and ask. I know, that's how I feel. Right? I just, I don't naturally do that. You know, I learned I'm learning to sort of do that more. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a that's a woman thing. I think. I mean, I'm not speaking. I think so too. It's like, you feel like you should be able to do everything you should, you know, you're the mom, you should have everything under control. And you should be able to do it, but and then to ask for help is some sort of sign of weakness. So you don't you just suffer through and get all shitty and, you know, yell at everyone and just keep doing it funny because my mom does the exact same thing with my dad, and my mom will complain to me about this, that or whatever. Every now and then. And I will sit there thinking like, actually say to her now I just, you just got to speak your mind more Mom, you've got to tell him if you don't want there. So you don't want that? Or, you know, and she's just like, oh, yeah, she does exactly what I do. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe this this generation of arrows because we've, we've seen our moms, perhaps be that final generation that doesn't speak their mind doesn't speak up. Maybe. I mean, I'm generalizing again. I know every relationship is different. But you know, the women that that may be, you know, got told that you meant to be a good wife, and you do the right things. You look after the kids and look after your husband, and then you keep everything happy. And an on the live. Yeah, you don't ever question before like 1950s housewife? Yeah, yeah. So maybe, because we're starting to break the mold that will help, you know, the generations coming after us? Well, we're seeing like, we're seeing the aftermath. Okay, that this is what it looks like he is on after you've done what our mothers have done and sort of just, you know, make everything look nice. And just make it comfortable for this, that and the other but not yourself. And yeah, maybe yeah, I don't know. The instead of sacrificing yourself for everyone else's happiness. You're actually Yeah, our lab to say, hey, come and do something. But we have social media too. So like, everyone's screaming about this on social media, and I think other women are reading and watching on going, oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't have social media back then. And wouldn't have known what other women was thinking. Because now we, we we do wherever and so much more connected through that. Absolutely. I mean, that can go both ways to being a positive and, and a drawback. I think, too, and especially with this mum view, I think a lot of the judgment that we place on each other, can manifest itself in that social media, because you're sharing so much of your life. And people are going, oh, oh, she's gone and done this again. Well, who's looking after the kids, you know, or someone might look at and go, oh, good for her. She's gone. And done this again. You know? Yeah, because we say that. Funny you say that? Because I was where was I was somewhere a couple weeks ago with family and some friends were there as well. And we're all having drinks. And they'd had these particular friends and had a few more drinks. And I'd had and so they one of them made a comment, like, I'm talking about how often I make reels on Instagram, and I'm showing up on social media. And like, so how do you, you know, how do you get that? How do you get that done? I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, I thought you were my friend. And really, people are watching what I'm doing and sort of thinking, you must not be a very good mother because you're just, you know, making reels all the time. And you're always on social media. And I'm like, Well, it's my job now. So yeah, I'm sure if you're getting paid to do reels and do you know, show up every day on social media. I'm sure you, you do it too. That's my job. Yeah, but your job is, you know, Office admin or whatever it is you're doing or work In a cafe making coffee like this is my job. Yeah. And I don't know shows that that judgment people, people will make make assumptions about people without actually knowing. You know everything. Yeah. Particularly when you're a mom. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and yeah, you get a tiny glimpse into someone's life through social media and then that can, you can No, no, build a whole idea in your head about what this person's life is like, without knowing anything. So, yeah, that side of things I find interesting. Yes. Certainly the positives, you know, sharing, sharing things like this, you know, when, you know, the topic about, you know, asking for help, you know, if enough people talk about it, it builds on itself. And, you know, people can share, share that just just an example, I suppose, you know, a positive of this social network, I suppose. I like several mum mums sort of personalities on Instagram, who do talk candidly about being a mum and, and nothing, you know, it's not all rosy. And, you know, that makes it like that. It's more relatable. It's not the fake, like, beautiful selfies with your child in a beautiful seat outfit. You know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah, I don't know, I just surround my page with people that I want to follow. I'm very big on, there might be a feed that's really curated and beautiful. But if they sort of aren't being real, and I won't follow them, and I try my best to be real online as well. Yeah. Yeah. Being genuine. goes a long way, I think. And you're actually building a connection, then you're not just, you know, yes. Putting up a shiny pretty trying to model or sell something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think yeah, in this day and age people, people will buy or connect with people who they have some sort of relationship, they feel something about someone. Totally, whereas, you know, my dad would go to the person with the best price. So you know, that sort of thing. But I think now so with my dad. Yeah. Yeah, different. Yeah. So that's Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to link that into, I guess, your the work that you're doing. So do you sort of do you kind of vet the people you're going to work with to make sure they're, they're the right fit for you. You're there. Does that make sense afterwards? I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah. 100%, I have had a couple of people who I feel just maybe when I was new I and my prices were quite reasonable. I feel like they were just trying to squeeze every, you know, worth, you know, every cent worth out of me and want a million things in return demanding. And you can sort of, you can sort of see now pick and choose who you want to work with, on their vibe, because we have like zoom meetings with businesses before we start working with them to ask what they want. And so you can it's like a half an hour chat, but you can sort of see what kind of person they are through that chat. And I also like to I don't like to work for like fast fashion brands, I prefer to work for designers who have actually, you know, Australian designers who put their heart and soul into the designs and like this one I'm wearing, you know, that's a local designer, and she designs all of these herself in Australia, and it's her brand. So I do pick and choose things like sustainable and ethical fashion brands. Australian, I prioritize as well, just because I want to support Aziz. Yeah, so yeah, I do. I do pick and choose. And I also don't have heaps of time. I only can work part time. So naturally, I do pick and choose who or who I take on. Yeah, even not being that big or that busy right now. I still have the opportunity to pick and choose so I do. Yeah, now that's good. I mean, you're picking the people that align with your own belief so yeah, I'm not trying not to be a bitch about it. I just I do I pick people who align with what I'm doing and yeah, I'm not gonna go work for a fast fashion brand whose stuff comes from China and just has you know, this just imported from them. They're not you know, yeah. Yeah, there's no carpet so it's not Yeah, it's it's that connection thing again, isn't it? It's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So sorry, I'm just gonna I'm skipping back again. We were getting through it but we're doing it in really? Your mind what what? You just you do you and I'll just answer whatever you want. Oh, good. No pressure. No. Good. I wanted to go back to when we talked much early hear about the support that you had. And you mentioned that you had you don't you didn't have any friends who were at the same sort of time in their life having babies at the same time when you did. And you sent us the words, I had to find new friends. Yeah. How was that? Like? I mean, you you expressed that you had postnatal depression and anxiety was that? Was that really a challenging? Sorry, I don't want to bring up things. If you're not, you know, I want to make you make you feel sad. Like, I'm not gonna say to you that I don't already write about us say to other people. So like, I don't care. Look, I did have friends who had babies, but they weren't close friends that I had, like, everyday contact with him feel like they were close friends that I could talk to them about how I was feeling. But also I didn't, I didn't know anyone that had had twins. And most, most women and most of my friends were really excited had a joyful pregnancy. Positive positive, you know, and I just didn't really I was careful with who I spoke to. Because I didn't feel like that for most of the pregnancy. Yeah. But what I did do is join a facebook group for moms that moms of multiples and parents of multiples. And so I got my feel from that, to be honest, rather than you know, and to maybe real life best friends who's who I've known forever. And were there for me with whatever I was feeling. So I did have them with my husband, my family. But yeah, I also use these online groups to sort of see how other mothers were feeling. And they were all very honest. So I realized it was normal and okay to be feeling anxious. Yeah, that's very important, isn't it? Because you'd be, you'd sort of be really questioning each question yourself to start with, but then you'd be like, Oh, hang on a second. Everyone else around me is all happy. Is this okay? You know, like we touched on earlier, like, yeah, no, that's really good. That's great. So another good social media positive connecting? Yeah, it's very important to me at that time, and I still check in on it every now and then, you know, like googling how to toddler had toilet trained toddlers, and it's like, oh, that group will know. They'll have some tips. I just, you know, yeah. That's it. Because it's not just that, you know, baby, the baby part. But then as they grow up, it's like, you're gonna have these different questions. Other things? Yes. Do you put twins in the same class at school? Like, you know, little things like that. When you go to a birthday party with your twins? Do you take two presents or one? Like silly little things, but it's nice to have somewhere that you can look? Yeah, slowly? That's so true. Yeah. Do you work with any, like children's brands? Like, are you drawn to doing things with children? Because you know, you've got your children? Yes. So like, basically, I got the job that I got working for that magazine for the parenting mag, the parenting magazine, I got that job because I was a mom, and I wouldn't have otherwise gone for it, or probably even been considered. So that was the first thing that sort of changed. I wanted to find a way to keep writing and blogging because like, I'd write articles and blogs, right. And so that was a way for me to continue writing, but still, in this new part of my life, and now with content creation, and working for brands and things. There has been several baby boutiques who have reached out and so I will incorporate the boys into photos and videos. I prefer to do toys. So there's one brand Mantine me and they have like, Montessori type. What's it called interactive toys and educational toys, and activities you can do so that's fun. And I enjoyed filming stuff like that, because I get to play with the kids with the activities and the tripods just holding my phone recording stuff. And then I edit it later. You know, I like that. Yeah, other than the fashion stuff, that's me. I'm not sure like, I love doing it. So it's so it's so cute, but it's harder. I prefer to do the playing activity things with them. And then I'm sort of doing stuff with them as well. That's it's a spontaneous, spontaneous reaction to like, they're going to be asked about the toy so much, and I have all those videos as as the boys grow up, and I have all those videos now. Like, it's like memories that I'm recording as well, to me. It's not just about work, and I get paid for that. And this and that, you know, I like having those memories that I'm sort of recording to Yeah, that's that's such a good point is that look, that's very cool. Well, yeah, I just thought about it the other day when I was on my phone, just you know, scrolling through stuff, and I was like, Oh, I remember that. Caleb and I remember this and that and it's nice to have those in my phone. You know that you otherwise probably wouldn't make the time to like, do Oh, yeah, that's, that's so true I like parents and working mothers following me. And I like connecting with them on Instagram as much as they don't have brands. So maybe I can't create content for them. I like having them in my feed and reading about their motherhood journey. And I hope that they like reading about mine. So I do try to like 30% of the time talk about motherhood and kids stuff on my Instagram, and then you know, 50%, I talk about work stuff and whatever else, but I like to sort of keep that open as a pillar or whatever you want to say, for my social media stuff. So yeah, well, you know, I actually predominantly work with fashion brands with the content creation business that I have. You know, handbags, clothes, even baby products, they'll send me stuff, and I'll photograph it or make reels, whatever they ask of me. So while that doesn't necessarily matter, to some mothers who are listening to this, yeah, I do like to talk very openly about being a mom and working while being a mom. And also I'm honest about trying to overcome, you know, postnatal depression and anxiety and have medication for it. And I'm very pro, like, if you need to have medication and you feel the same. That's okay. You know, things like that. Yeah, there's people, a lot of people have said to me, why weren't you nervous about starting medication and not being able to come off it? Or some people actually said, like, I heard that any depressants can make you like, put on heaps of weight. So I don't want to and, you know, I just sort of had all those kinds of conversations with people and what what medication do you take because all the ones I taught made me feel sick. And so I like to just sort of be encouraging with that stuff, too. Yeah. Without saying too much. Because I know it's not spoken about a lot either. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I have had quite bad personal repression. And I take Feistel take my own. Now, am I Yeah, six now, but honestly, I, my daughter in a pandemic at the moment to like, seriously, but that's the thing. Like, I think people are scared of medication. And I know it's not for everybody. Yeah, that's fine. But I don't, yeah. I'm not scared people knowing that I take medication, because I think that helps to normalize the stigma around mental illness and, and how to work through it's like a tool to help you get through. Yeah, so but some people also describe how they feel to me, I think, because they know that I have experienced it, maybe. And I can see from what they described to me that they it's quite alarming, like they're quite anxious, or they are feeling really low. And it's like, wouldn't you rather just feel better? And if you have to have some medication temporarily. Why don't you just try it like? Yeah, it's a tough one. It is. Yeah, yeah. Because that's thing you don't know. Who in their life is maybe giving them their own opinion? You know, like people? Yeah, you may be someone's going on. You don't need that. Yeah, right. Oh, I had that. Yeah, I ended up just not saying anything to anyone and going to the doctor and getting it myself and taking it and seeing then I'd started to tell family afterwards after I was already on it, so that they couldn't try and talk me out of it again. But yeah, I just think it's Yeah, important to talk about normalize, like you said, not not be judgmental, if other people want to have medication or need it, and be encouraging about, it's okay, if you do need it, you know, things like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think we'd be in a lot better place as in as, as a society if we were just so much more open and accepting of other people's, you know, issues and problems and just being supportive of people is even, even my dad like I, I work with a, there's a local group there called lifeboat and it's basically they gathered up a lot of sort of people in the community that people recognize, like, not fake, I want to say famous, but you know, we're a small town. Most people know everyone. So they gathered up a heap of people and said, Let's do some podcasts to talk about your experience with mental health. And, and my dad said, Are you sure you want people to know what happened to you? And I said, Yes, that's why I'm doing it because I want people to know that average, ordinary everyday people, everybody has issues, you know, and yeah, don't be scared to talk about because there are people out there to help you. And you'll get you'll get the support you need. You know, instead of just being scared of what people think of you, so that said that I reckon that's the generational difference, because my parents are very private like that, too. And they, I don't know how they feel about what I say, and things like that. But I think it's courageous to just be brave and just say how you're feeling. I mean, doesn't help anyone just doing what maybe our parents think we should do? Which is just, you know, suffer in silence Be quiet. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Another way we can sort of help. The shift in the thinking, I think moving forward on new cost sharing. Yeah. Thank you. And you too. Yeah. Nah, thanks. So it is it is good. I mean, it's hard, but it's good. You know, after that, after I did that podcast, I got so many messages from people just saying, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I this is what makes it worth it, you know, and that that was the That's what I said to the host. I said, you know, if if one person gets something out of this, it's been in here, you had people message him saying, you know, my wife had this. This was like, 60 year olds, right, saying my wife had this, but nobody knew what it was. We didn't know what to do with it. You know, this, this, this whole shift that's happening in caring for for mental unwellness you know, it's just amazing. So yeah, I was really pleased that they asked me to do this. I really Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that's the thing, the more we can talk the better. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge. We've been had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Julie Denton Australian yoga teacher S1 Ep03 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julie Denton is a creator of a different kind, having worked in the fitness industry since her teens and more recently as a yoga teacher. A mother of 3 adult children from Mount Gambier SA, Julie talks about how society's view of the mother changes as we age, the unique perspective she has now her children have moved out of home, and we finish the podcast with a beautiful Metta Karuna mediation. **This episode contains discussion around an eating disorder** Julie instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used by permission in this episode from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. My guest today is not your run of the mill artist creative, or the first thing that may spring to mind when you think of a creator. Typically, your mind goes to painters, writers, dancers and more like that Today's guest has a long history of creating in another way. And I invited her on to share one of the many ways that mothers are being creative today. My guest, Julie Denton from Matt Gambia, South Australia has many years experience in the fitness industry, as a business owner and more recently as a yoga teacher. Work. Julie, it's great to have you here. Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here. Yeah. And my first face to face interview too, which is very exciting. Obviously, I know you quite well, and I've known you for a while. But would you like to share a bit about yourself how it maybe what you've been up to, over the years involved in fitness, maybe how you got into it, what you've been up to, with the yoga, that kind of thing? Sure. When I was 18 and working in my first job. One of my co workers dragged me along to what was an aerobics class back then, at the local was just the squash center. And I was hooked. I loved it. And until that point in my life had been quite lazy. I was the girl that wags sports day at school. But I just loved it. I loved the music and the movement and the way it was all put together and I guess I love the creativity of it. So when I've literally been going for maybe a month or two this aerobics class went out bought all the gear, how will you no idea? Like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So the days where your oily attire over your leggings and it had a G string and the leg warmers and I had the hair that went with everything was float? Look, my kids look at the photos and go Oh, Mom, have you still got some of that stuff? Because that's heavy. I have it doesn't smell very good. Like anybody um, the the woman who was taking the classes a month in the woman that was taking the classes was leaving town. And she literally said to me, Julia, would you like to take over and I said, you know, you didn't need qualifications in these days. And I said, Oh, yeah, that'd be great. And gee whiz, I, I was really thrown into it. And I remember making my first little mixtape of all I could say, took my little boombox and press play, and away we went. And it was dreadful. It was horrible to everybody loved it. And I loved it. And you know, there was nothing to compare it to. In, you know, small country town at the squash center, it was, you know, we were having a hoot. So, from there, you know, I definitely went on to become qualified and more experienced. And eventually, it led me into personal training. I opened my own personal training studio as a business. And then around about three years ago, now I left the fitness industry and opened my own yoga studio. I've been teaching yoga for about 11 or 12 years, but thought it was time to morph into something new and yoga was definitely my passion. So had you always had that sort of feeling of it? And I'm jumping right ahead here to something I'll probably ask you later. But the the spirituality that comes with yoga, was that always something you had already? That come later? Or how did you come to that? Yeah. It's funny that you asked that because I was raised as a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School. So I guess that religious spirituality was there. And when by the time I had, you know, I was well into my 40s and I did my yoga teacher training, and had sort of left religion You like by then I sort of, I guess become became a bit disillusioned with it all and was perhaps looking for that spirituality again. And that's what led me to yoga. And I know, yoga facilitated a lot of change in my personal life at that stage that I really needed. I guess it was my next level of growth. And in the yoga teacher training, even though yoga is definitely not a religion, there was so the spiritual concepts took me right back to being at a Catholic Primary School, you know, that, you know, just the underlying current, I guess of love and compassion and kindness. So yeah, it was it was, I guess, my next step in my spiritual growth, and I think we're all we are I know, we're all spiritual beings. It's just some of us perhaps, don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge perhaps in a bit of denial, doesn't you know, embarrassed because it's a misunderstood concept. It's, you know, it is connected to some people connected to religion, but you can definitely be spiritual or religious. Absolutely. So, tell me about your children, Julie and your family? Yeah, um, I have a husband, Andrew have three adult children, Brittany, Tara and Liam 2927, and 22. So, I guess, from the perspective of motherhood, I'm in the, I'm in the advanced stages, I guess I've got I've got the wonderful gift of hindsight. So when I sort of had a look at the content we'd be discussing today, I've felt really blessed in that, you know, I can see it from all angles, having, you know, the pre pre kids life and then the during kids, and now almost the post kids in some ways. You've lived it all I have. Yes. So. So how do kids fit in with that? Obviously, the fitness industry and you're quite mobile, and you're moving a lot. How did that all fit in pregnancy? Well, oh, gee whiz. Well, with Brittany, my oldest I was when I was sick with all three of them for over half of the pregnancy, particularly with my first with Bret. So that was a huge steep curve, I had to sort of set aside the more high energy classes and I ended up moving into aqua aerobics teaching in the pool. Loved it. And I think what happened is I evolved into a definitely evolved into a better fitness instructor through it, because I perhaps appeal to a different demographic as well. Also have more empathy and more compassion for what other people are going through rather than just oh, look at me, I'm fit, you know, and I've got a G string. Suddenly, I was dealing with real people and real issues and mothers that can't do star dance because things happen when your mother. Absolutely. So it was, yeah, it was what needed to happen. Bring me into the real world. It was tough. You don't always get sleep when you've got a baby and Brittany just didn't sleep for the first five years of her life. So I was off and running on empty. It was it was a tough job. Even though it was so rewarding and really a super job for a new mom, because there's often a crash or a childcare involved at the gym. So I was lucky I had that support. Also could work my own hours. So we're working around when Andrew was home, unable to be home with the kids. So you touched on the tiring, so obviously your body was tired, but mentally How did you go then creating the classes? How did how did you approach that? I suppose if you were feeling a bit, not yourself, and perhaps didn't have as much time? Yeah, pre. I'll talk about pre my pre Les Mills days because before I became a Les Mills instructor, all of my classes were created by me. So the music and the choreography. Everything Yeah, usually knew who my audience and my class were going to be so I could tailor it to them. So it's probably the beginning of my personal training career in some ways. And I probably sort of prided myself on every class was layered with things we'd already visited or practiced, but then there was a new element And you'll never be. Yeah, exactly. So there was this continuation, there was a sense of familiarity from previous classes, but also a sense of adventure, and we're going somewhere and we're improving. Well, that went out the window when you baby because it's like, you have to use that tape again. And that that choreography because I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't, you know, find the time to think about it, let alone practice it, and you didn't have the time or the energy. So bit of treading water there for a year or so. But most people, you know, understood that and they were in the trenches with me, because a lot of them were new mums as well. And through that came great friendships a lot of support. Yeah, exactly. Which is so important. Even just someone to understand who can empathize is just, you know, can make the world of difference. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So before you set out on your having children adventure, did you sort of think about how your fitness life would change? Or did you sort of think, like, did you have people around you maybe that role model power to make it work in the fitness industry? Or just No, no, not at all. I was the first in my friendship group to have children. So honestly, our when I had bread, I'd never changed, or maybe even seen a nappy bean change and change one. And I rang the buzzer, and asked the nurses stitch, show me how to change the first nappy. And I had no qualms with that, because I really did not know what I was doing. Gee whiz, that that floors me right now. Go jokes about jumping into the deep end. So no, I didn't consider it, I probably the changes to my physical body would have been probably my number one concern. And, you know, I feel probably a lot of us did the same thing here in that it's focused on the pregnancy. And you don't focus so much on the actual motherhood side of things. And that goes for a lot longer than the pregnancy, actually, when you look back at it. Same with weddings and marriages, you know, the wedding, and then y'all hang on a minute, I'm gonna be married to this guy for hours. And so. So, yeah, I didn't I think the physical changes to my body were what sort of engulf me at that time. And having come from a background of having an eating disorder when I was in my late teens, and interestingly, getting into fitness is what brought me out of that hole. Because I started to respect my body more. So it was, yeah, I sort of been through that journey. And then suddenly, it was all going to change again. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was confronting for me. And that was probably my focus. And then once I learned how to change a nappy and feed the baby, like, sort of with all three kids, I went back to my work at the gym. Fairly quickly, I had other jobs on the side that I'd hadn't any lead from, but I all I've always worked in the fitness industry is at any given time, other than perhaps three or four weeks after giving birth. I retired when I had lamb my third and then they dragged me back. Keep your way, you know? So your children are late. You've just brought up laying? Yes. just reminded me. So your children spending a lot of time around the gym. It's rubbed off on all of you. Well, yeah, all of them. Yeah, it really has. It's funny because I tell the story Liam's first full sentence was we will we will rock you because because at this stage, I was teaching those meals classes and one of them was body pump. And of course learning choreography is a big part of it. music So wherever we went in a car Sorry kid. You know, the music was playing and bless him. I think he was you know, probably was old enough to string a sentence. Obviously, not very old. He was in his car seeing the back of the car when I pulled up and I heard this you know, right at the right time with the chorus, but I tend to motor off so that the music went off and there was still this little from the back behind me. We will we will walk you it really was at the same time as i Oh, my goodness, what have I done? So yeah, and I also my girls would play aerobics instructors, step instructors, and they would, they'd go around so we go to our friend's house and with my friend Louise also in the industry. My daughter's and her daughter would be moving on girls running their own little circuit class, really so my creativity rubbed off on name as well. And since then, my oldest daughter works in, in media bit for the Melbourne Storm Rugby League clubs. So, in sport, you know, she's she's, she's connected to sport and goes to the gym, loves, loves her fitness. My middle daughter Tara is a school teacher and also a yoga teacher. She went away to Bali a few years ago and became qualified as a yoga teacher. And then Liam is currently works in a gym in Adelaide, and he's a bodybuilder so yeah, he's he's gotten pretty good too. Oh, he's gone great guns. Yeah. Yeah, he's I don't know how he does it. Yeah, it's you obviously feel very proud of him. Yeah, super proud of all my kids. And I feel that, you know, dragging them along to the gym, and I never once pushed it on them. I certainly let them eat, like normal children. I wasn't, you know, pushy with their food or, you know, their, their exercise in any way. I just modeled what I would hope for them to absorb. And they have Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. So let's chat about the fantastic word that we get thrown at us all the time that this mum guilt. Well, how do you feel about that? Julie? Well, I guess I touched on it a little bit a moment ago. My kids did get brought up in the gym. But I was incredibly lucky that I could take them to work with me. And that they could see me I guess achieving something. And being a mum, is my greatest ever achievement, let's let's not get that wrong. I feel that mum guilt is perhaps a label or a clump that we're all invited into. Once we become a mum, and it's expected of us and it's I don't think it's it's something that's unique to any of us where we all feel it. So therefore, is it a thing? You know, it's, you know, tree falls in the forest? Does anyone hear it? Is it a thing? Is it something? Is it just a label, it's I don't think it's an emotion, I don't think it's a feeling I just think it's a thing. And studies have shown that guilt doesn't necessarily reform your future behavior. And I thought about that, and I because I knew that this was one of you your topics. And I thought if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I've stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lighting me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children, I changed, I let go of it, I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So and I mean every you know to say that you've got mum guilt, everybody experiences guilt differently as well. And for me, the feeling of guilt is kind of like looking forward to some sort of future resentment. I know I'm gonna feel bad one day that I missed out on that first smile or the first step or whatever. I that might not happen. And be I'm going to I'm going to go with my yoga and meditation roots here. We can only live in the here in the now. So when I was with the kids, I tried as much as possible as possible to be with my kids. And when I wasn't with them, I tried to do the best job that I was doing with the support that I had. And I think I did and I guess as I said earlier I've got the the luxury now of sitting here with three grown adult children looking back going it all turned out okay. Yeah, maybe if you interview them it might be I don't think so. No, no, I think what we what we do worry and have these feelings and challenges in the here and now. We just got to stay in the here and now. Do the best we can. Do you think a lot of that comes from society's expectations or how you perceive yourself being judged by others. Definitely. I think it's expected that we will feel guilty will have mommy guilt RDMS them and oh you know how do you go Being away from them all day. And, you know, what's it like when you get home today, you know, and it's there is this expectation that that's how you're going to feel. So we feel it and it's like, you know, I think you maybe feel it, but Don't wallow in it. Just go, okay, everyone's feeling the same way I am. So just do the best I can and really be with your family when you're with them. And when you're not with them know that that's part of their journey to where if we've created this beautiful, amazing human, and we are meeting their, their needs as far as food, shelter, love. That's actually all they really need. As long as you're meeting those, the guilts really a wasted feeling. I've said that so well. Did you? Did you find that your that you needed to have something for yourself? Was it important for you to maintain that? Yes. Your sense of identity as Julie? Yes. Not just Julie mum? Yes, not Julie mom, not Julie wife, not Julie daughter, you know, it's interesting with the mom guilt thing, you move on into my stage of life. And now I have parent guilt. And for all the bad things I've ever said to my mum and dad, the way I judge them when they were bringing me up for not spending enough time with them now that, you know, my mum passed on in March and you know, the time that I didn't spend with her or couldn't spend with her or, you know? Yeah, I think I think we beat ourselves up too much. We can only be in the moment that we're in. That's wise words. So, you've mentioned you yoga, just February flee, I want to sort of bring that in. Even though you weren't necessarily practicing a lot of ego, you're when you had your children. You were doing your fitness and you came into yoga, or 1211 12. Zero, yeah. Did you find then being a mother, and this whole connection to Mother Earth and other concepts in exploring yoga, that you found a really deep connection that you could understand, or feel those concepts strongly because you're a mother, everything has evolved since becoming a mother. And speaking of Mommy get to do my yoga teacher training, I had to go, I had to go and live in Boston for a month. And I had incredible support to be able to do that. But I nearly came home after the first week, I was in tears every night, it was so hard. And it wasn't even really mommy guilt. It was I just missed them. But again, the thing that kept me there was that, you know, they I think Liam was only about 10. And the girls are a little older, sort of in high school. And I could see that me being away was enriching their relationship with their dad. And seeing him as part of their, their care is not that wasn't always just gonna be me and didn't always have to be me and their grandparents as well. So when I came back from that, I think all of our relationships changed a bit. We all appreciated each other a whole lot more. When I became a mum, say in the fitness industry, I definitely had a greater awareness and appreciation for the female body and started to research more about that aspect, you know, the hormonal hormonal fluctuations as an example, on a woman that might be training, you know, in the gym, or, you know, running or, you know, participating in sport. So that came into my personal training that came into my, my field of vision. Suddenly, yeah, and then of course, as you head towards menopause, that's now also coming in. And then of course, with yoga. Yeah, when you become a yoga teacher, you realize, you really realize this connection to all beings. You you also realize a connection to think something that's greater than yourself. And realize you have this responsibility of passing down your wisdom. And I'm going to talk a bit about perhaps, hear the, the maid and the mother and the crone and the cranes a horrible word. I'm gonna get creative and come up with a high priestess. Oh, yeah. Because I'm a crane. And I want to be called a chrome. Thanks very much. Yeah. So the maiden is, you know, the years when as a female, you're a child or adolescent. You're going through puberty. You're laying the foundation for your the future. You're You're growing and developing physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And then you move into that creative time when you're the mother, where you you're nurturing, and you're, you're providing the shelter, the food, the life sustaining elements to either your children or your family or your pets, whatever it might be, that's your stage in life. And then you move through that into menopause and beyond. And unfortunately, as in Western society, unlike perhaps a the ancient societies in India, where yoga originated, where the the elders are revered, for their wisdom and their guidance, where in our society, we're kind of cast aside we're not cool. We're not Instagram worthy, where, you know, yeah, that was, you know, back in your day, that doesn't count anymore. And yeah, it doesn't. You know what, I'm so glad that I had my kids when I did, because I think we got it easier. But I'm in that stage now where my job I see it is to provide some wisdom and guidance and a shining mite. So that, I guess that's why I came into yoga, because I felt that there was no more moving on girl for the locker room, there was so much more in me than that. And what was the next thing so? Yoga was that that awakening within me? I really miss it. I'm like, in a hiatus at the moment, I'm calling it my chrysalis. I might have been alone, perhaps I was having that come out as a moth. But Kevin? Yeah, my studio, I had to unfortunately, close because of COVID. And then I've developed type one diabetes. So I, you know, divine timing, because I would have I was really, really ill. And it would have been a real struggle to run a yoga studio. So I figured, okay, I've been almost shoved into this cocoon. And um, I was I was fighting that for a while. But then we know what happens inside cocoons. Amazing things. So I'm just going to settle in here for a while. A little bit longer yet. Yep. Build up my strength a little more. And don't worry. There's there's things happening. If there's ideas, and I'm being so creative, right now, probably more creative than I've ever been. It's just that it's all in my mind. The mind is ready. And the body's saying I haven't your wings aren't quite ready yet. That's right. Yeah. So let's talk about then the creativity involved in when you you organizing your yoga classes and the thought and so I've always admired and to tell people that Julie has this beautiful, big, it's a double like a full big book. And she sets it out in front of every class. And when I realized what it was, I used to get a bit sneaky and have a look, because I'll always like to bring up the front. Oh, excellent at doing that posting. And it's all color coded, which is like, it's beautiful. And so much thought and effort and passion goes into that. So if you wouldn't mind divulging some of your secrets of how you come up with your classroom. In some ways, that's my favorite part. And that's the creativity. You know, I can't sit here and say that someone's got that hanging on a wall somewhere or that someone came to, you know, see my show, but I guess they did in some ways. And I've often joked that I'm, I'm my, if I could give myself a title, it's facilitator of change. That's what I've always helped creating bedding to create create some change in people whether it was through sit ups and burpees or, or yoga practice or meditation. And my favorite part always has been when I think about it, and thank you for making me think about it. Allison, has been creating what I'm about to present. And I guess when I think deeper about it, everything I've done, whether it's that aerobics class in the leotard or now my yoga, it's almost a performance. I that I've planned and choreographed and researched and scripted. You know, back in my aerobics days or the Les Mills days, you spending an hour on stage, smiling, pretending something doesn't hurt when it's killing you inside. is doing a good job of stringing people along for the ride if you and no matter what happened that morning if the kids will run like we need them breakfast or you throw him in the car or car break down whatever it literally is, it's a performance you need on your happy face. And pretty much everyone in the class was creating that same sense as well in that you know, their kids might have been the ones that wouldn't eat their breakfast but that's okay because right now they're in the kids club and I'm having an hour to my set Yeah, so and then yeah with my yoga book, if you want to call it that the volume of my my lesson plans are go with a theme and I attach my theme to whatever's happening in nature. I'm very much connected to the natural world love love the ocean love the moon love the sun, love the seasons love a forest love a mountain. So I'll work out what's going on maybe astronomically or with the moon cycle or with the season you know, maybe an equinox or a solstice or whatever is going on. Or maybe it's a current world event. I remember I had to teach a body balanced class on the day that we all woke up to 911 has possibly been taken but people still turned up for it because they needed something. And that's what tells me that spirituality is so such an integral part of us so yeah, that's that's where I start and then sometimes the colors are a code sometimes they're just pretty colors to be honest. And just changing textures over but sometimes they are a COVID or I might be working with shockers or with a season or or just my favorite colors so yeah, from that that foundation of where I'm coming from then research okay what you know, I know the basic structure of a yoga class I mean learn the very basics and fundamentals through my yoga teacher training. So research okay, what physically do we need in our bodies to perhaps deal with this time or settle any negative things that might arise from say a full moon or or enhance things you know, that we might want to bring to the surface and deal with or shine light on? And then from there, you know, working out okay, how does one pose fit with another? Am I is there is it a balanced class physically? What am I then, you know, what am I going to say? How am I going to present this? beginnings, middles endings, you know, is there a meditation that could go with this? Is there breathwork? What breathwork can go with is each all of my classes will have those elements. It's not just oh, moving on, girl. Yeah, it's definitely this, you know, it's the whole shebang. Yoga should always be breathing, movement, mindfulness. When I owned my own studio, I had the luxury of being able to look at who was booked into that class, and then maybe working out any modifications I might need to offer for people or perhaps just, again, tailoring it along to whoever I I knew was going to be in the class. Did you find that your how you were feeling came out in like, if you feel like you need? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, so many times, and I've said it to yoga teachers, when I've been to their class, people will say, Oh, how did you know that was exactly what I needed. And I you've seen I've said it's because, you know, we're all connected together. Yeah, you know, often, I would have, I've probably admitted in class many times, this ain't for me, this is for you. This is for me. I know you don't want to expose but I do. Or I need this. And so you know, it's tongue in cheek, but yeah, we, we, you know, if I'm feeling the effect of, let's say, the autumn equinox, where we're about to shift into winter, where, you know, letting go of those warm balmy days and you know, the joy of summer and from smart meters like and we're, you know, physically we're shifting, it's getting colder. We're feeling we're starting to eat stodgy foods and it's just like, oh, here we go again. And, you know, we're all feeling the same. So no matter what I present, whether I think it's, you know, for me or them, it's for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just want to touch on your, your name of your yoga studio, one lifestyle, one yoga and lifestyle. That is important to you to embody that. It's not just the poses, the shapes you make, it's an You take it away from the mat and put it into your life integrated into your life. That's something you're passionate about, ah, so much. So, I mean, I think because I came, because of that journey I've just spoken about I came from, well look at me, I'm fed to, Hey, sit down, be humble, you know, there's more to it than running around like a crazy person, you realize, you do realize that when you've once you've had children, that's for sure. There's more people in the world than just you. And everything you do, has an effect on other beings. And if we want to focus on the lifestyle, part of it, so one yoga and lifestyle, I wanted to include the word lifestyle, because Yoga is a lifestyle, it's, you know, it's not that people think, Oh, it's a religion, it's a cult, it's just, it's a form of exercise. It's none of those things. It's a lifestyle. It was, you know, founded 1000s of years ago. And it's still around. So it's not a fad. It's not, it's still very relevant, more and more so. And what we do on the mat, the lessons we learn about our physical body to start with, and then as we evolve about mental, spiritual, emotional bodies, we can take into our everyday life. And it's really as as as a yoga practitioner. It's important that we do that, because then we make the world a better place. And that just sounds so Walt Disney, but honestly, that's what it's all about. It's about being the best person we can. So that everybody around us, and if you get if you get that many people trying to be the best, and do the best nicest things, you know, the the I don't know what the remarks are. Yeah, the ripple effect. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important to me that people come to yoga. It's there. There's, that's a whole sentence, it's important that people come to yoga force. Yeah. And when they do consistently, they will realize exactly what I've just said that they might come for the stretch, they might come because they're tired. They might come because they can't sleep. They might come because they've got a pain in the back. And if they keep coming, they'll eventually look back and go, Well, I'm coming for a whole different reason. Now. I'm coming for that story about Goddess Kali. I'm, I'm coming because I need to slow down and breathe deeper. I'm coming because my mind is so full. I need to just be still and silent. And like you said the people that came to that body balance class on that night of 911 Like just needing comfort, I suppose. And community connection in a really positive way. Yeah. And they probably need to needed to do it. In a space that felt safe. A yoga class always feels safe. Yeah, and they needed Yeah, they they needed perhaps. That mothering. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd love to share to leave, it's important to you that we might not have mentioned? Yeah, I think apart from like my work, if you want to call it that, I've never felt like I've worked. I've been so blessed with it all over the years and had great support, so that I could always do what I've always done. And looking back, I'd like to think I'm a good example of a mum that knew what was best for her knew what was best for your kids and let go of any guilt or expectation and just did it when it felt right. And that it can all turn out well in the end. Moving away from that, though, the way other ways that we can be creative because, you know, there's there's a lot of pressure on us now. And you know, because of social media as well, we're always expected to achieve you know, and to show what we've been doing with our time heaven forbid that we might just sit around and not do anything. Yeah. And you know, the only thing we did today might have been mopped the floor that's not good enough, you know, well, if you didn't post it on Instagram, it didn't really happen. Exactly. So you know, I sort of again if this coming on this podcast has been great for me because you made me reflect back on how did it change when I do you become a mother and I was at home or and I just got into baking and cooking and the kids would do that with me and and craft was big on craft as in craft groups. And I was like, you know, I was managing a big craft group at one stage. I didn't get any craft done. As usual was like I was never as fit as I could be because I was I was at the front like yelling and everybody. Well, there was not getting any craft done because I was organizing for everybody. But it was it was great. I It's creating a crop group. And yeah, so you know, yeah, I've got quilts. And honestly, if there hadn't been Instagram back, then every day, my house would have had different decor because I had, I just was rotating the rooms all the time. I just loved being home and doing that. So, you know, that's if that's how you're being creative. That's how you're being creative. And you know, I think we're all creative. Oh, I totally agree. You know, we we've all got art and music and performance inside of us. And you've really got to acknowledge that no matter how grand it is, or how, you know, mop the floor and sing the song. With you and you created something. Exactly. Yeah. I didn't want to ask too. How is it different now? Your creativity, and obviously the, the ways you can do it and how you do it. You don't have any kids living at home now. So that must be a different sort of vibe and feel at home. Yeah, I mean, also, because I'm not regularly teaching at the moment. I'm sort of doing a few pop up classes here and there. So yeah, everything really has changed. But yeah, now if I've got a class to plan, I, I'm sorry, not organized. I procrastinate to the last minute because you don't have to be and quite often, what will happen is like Tara being a schoolteacher, she'll come home for the holidays. This isn't like, Oh, hey, my glasses have been caught out with my pants down. So you tend to get a little bit laps at AZ cool, I think. I think you're at your peak of organizational powers when you have kids at home. And yeah, also, you know, like little things like if I'm trying to make a new playlist or something I have, I've had to learn how to do it. Just get the kids to help me ring him up. Brother Yeah, so it's definitely changed. Yeah, yep. We're very, very lucky today on the podcast. Julie's gonna lead us to a meditation. And it's one of my favorites, actually is my complete favorite. So over to you, Julie. Thanks. So today's meditation is metta Karuna. And this literally means a loving kindness meditation. So I will begin by finding a comfortable position and this is whatever is comfortable for you. So you can be seated you can lie down. I recommend that you make yourself warm. So find perhaps something to place over your lap. Make sure you've got socks on or some long sleeves and as you find yourself comfortable, close down your eyes. Remembering that in meditation, all we really need to do is just to be present to just stay alert and aware. Just listening to my voice being in the here and now the meta Karuna meditation I'm doing today begins with shine, showing love kindness and compassion to the self. So as is the Buddhist tradition, we will send our love or kindness and compassion to ourselves first. So I'm going to recite a small mantra and what you need to do is listen and then repeat the words silently to yourself lying as you are, visualize yourself, smiling, happy, peaceful and free. And as you visualize yourself smiling, say to yourself, may I be happy? May I be peaceful? May I be free of all suffering? Next, we will visualize before us somebody that we love unconditionally, who loves us in return This can be the first person you think of because I'm sure there are many people and very people, perhaps pets that you love so just the first person or pet that comes to mind visualize them before you smiling back and send your loving thoughts to this person may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering now we'll bring to mind somebody neutral somebody that you know and acquaintance, somebody that you don't have any strong feelings towards. So this might be somebody that serves you in a shop might be somebody that you see on television, it might be a sporting hero, somebody that you don't really know but you you see them often and you have neutral feelings for them. Visualize this person smiling, happy then send this person your love and your kindness and your compassion May you be happy May you be peaceful may be free of all suffering and now, for a challenge we visualize somebody who challenges us it might be somebody who you've had a disagreement with it might be somebody that just rubs you up the wrong way pushes your buttons if this is too painful for you, that's okay perhaps just return to visualizing yourself and sending yourself the love and the kindness and the compassion. But if you can visualizing this person who challenges you and see them happy and relaxed and smiling and smile at them in return and send them your metric arena May you be happy really peaceful. May you be free of all suffering and finally as vast as it is, visualize the whole world all beings the entire universe before you all beings deserve to be happy and peaceful and free So visualizing all beings we send out our meta Karina May all beings be happy May all beings be peaceful May all beings be free. Son, the Shang, Asian baby keeping your eyes closed, just becoming aware of your surroundings again. If you're lying on the floor, just roll over to your right side body and curl up there for a moment. And then taking your time whenever you're ready. Use your hands to brace yourself back up and take a seat so that we're all seated. Just pause for a moment eyes remaining closed and just noticing the effects of our meditation may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering thank you so much for coming. Enjoy. It's been an absolute pleasure and sharing your thoughts and experience because we That's thanks, Alison. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic man

John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jo Maloney Australian singer, songwriter and musician S3 Ep94 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My final guest for Season 3 is Jo Maloney, a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne Victoria, and a mum of 3 boys. As a child she saw any raised platform as a stage, and would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu, it was the moment Jo knew she wanted to be a singer. Jo has enjoyed an extensive voice career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After 9 years of gigging the pub and corporate scene she relocated to London where eventually she found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn’t until she moved to Melbourne in 2012 after 10 years in London with 3 kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 that she decided that she wanted to try her luck at writing her own music. It’s only been in the last 4 years-just before Cover and now that her 3 children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort. Under the guise of Dragnfly Industri, her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop- infused instrumentals, Jo released her debut single Ghost last year, it reflected Jo's life of once believing that dreams are risky and unattainable and only for the lucky few, to realising that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and a core fanbase alike, winning the Real Songwriters of Melbourne Community Award, as well as earning a Top 5 spot in RSOM’s song of the year. 2023 will see Jo continue to embrace her development, set to release a self-produced debut EP in late 2023 as well as a slew of new singles. Jo exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions, find your legacy and live your purpose every day. Jo - Instagram / Music Podcast - instagram / website Jo's music used with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening all around the world. My guest this week is Joe Maloney. Joe is a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, and she's a mom of three boys. As a child, Joe saw any race platform as an opportunity to perform. It was his stage, and she would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu. Joe knew it was the moment that she wanted to be a singer. Joe has enjoyed an extensive vocal career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After nine years successfully gigging the pub and corporate scene in a covers band, she relocated to London, where she eventually found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn't until Joe moved to Melbourne in 2012, after 10 years in London, with three kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 That she decided that she wanted to try a look at writing her own music after being inspired as a 14 year old. By a 16 year old Debbie Gibson song lost in your eyes. It's only been in the last four years just before COVID And now that her three children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort under the guise of dragonfly industry. Her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop infused instrumentals, Joe released her debut single ghost last year. It reflected Joe's life of once believing that dreams are risky, and unattainable, and only for the lucky few to realizing that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and core fanbase alike, winning the real songwriters of Melbourne community Award, as well as earning a top five spot in the real songwriters of Melbourne Song of the Year. 2023 We'll see Joe continue to embrace her development. She's set to release a self produced debut EP in late 2023, as well as a slew of new singles. Joe exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions. Find your legacy, and live your purpose every day. Throughout this episode, you'll hear Joe's music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's the final episode in Season Three of the podcast I know you walking through wilderness feeling lost on the ground, darkened scaly is a fever in chest cause you always thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's such a pleasure to meet you and put a face to the to the voice. Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here Allison. Yeah, it's lovely. And your whereabouts are you in Australia? So I'm based in Melbourne? Yep. I just outside of Melbourne. Yeah, in Larabee. So I guess it's western suburbs. So yeah. My nana used to live in hoppers crossing. Okay. Yeah, there we go. How long have you been in? Where before? I only eight years. I'm not originally from Melbourne. I'm actually, I've kind of been all over really. But I guess I spent most of my childhood up in New South Wales, just south of Port Macquarie. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, really, really lovely spot. My mum and dad is still up there. And it's yeah, it's it's beautiful to go home. I wouldn't say to home, I've lived there for a long time. But it's beautiful to go and see them and have a holiday as well, because it's right by the beach. And so I've only been I've been in Melbourne for 10 years, but I've been in wherever for eight. Yeah, yeah. But isn't Port Macquarie, like the place in Australia that has the most number of like really good weather days or something? Is that salutely No idea. Someone told me that once because we're I mean, Matt Gambia and the weather is just fair. I mean, you'd be familiar with that being in Melbourne. It's pretty Yeah. Yeah. And I remember watching one day about the weather. And they said, I'm sure they said Portland quarry had like, because I said, I just want it to be like 25 degrees with sunshine. Like, is that too much to ask? And they're like, Yeah, I know. I don't think it's quite like that up there. Certainly not. Now. I think they get very, very hot and humid up there. Now. I think it's definitely a lot more humid than what it used to be when I was living there. So it might it may have been like that once upon a time. Tell me about your music. You are a musician, a singer songwriter? How did you first get into music? When do you have this moment of like recalling when you sort of first discovered music? Ah, I remember always being a show off. Right from sort of being kind of like three, four years old. I loved being the center of attention. And I think a lot to do with the fact that not only was I the oldest child, but I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of the family. Yeah. The distinct memory I really have is, every time I saw like a raised platform, I was singing, whether it be my grandparents balcony, or the front veranda of their house. So I can remember being in a shopping center and like seeing sticks somewhere. And I'd be on the steps thinking my little heart out because it felt like a page. And I don't think it was like, watch me, this is what I can do. It was just something that I gravitated towards. When I saw the movie Xanadu. That was the moment that it it clicked for me that I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I want to sing I want to I want to just be this person that just sings and is beautiful and and I was obsessed with that movie for such a long time growing Yeah, absolutely obsessed. My, my whole family would still tell me to this day, how long I would spend swinging on a swing, singing Xanadu hours. The first time I think I felt like I really wanted to be a songwriter was when I was about 14 I think back in the late 80s. And there was a 14 year old singer songwriter named no she was 16 Sorry, Debbie Gibson. Oh yeah. And I fell in love with her song lost in your eyes. And I thought, Ah, I would love to play the piano and sing like that. And so I tried to emulate that for a few few years. And then I think I just got too nervous with writing and just fear of judgment. And so I just decided I was just going to be a singer. And I actually put away the songwriting for a really really long time and only identified as a vocalist. So it's only really been actually in the last three or four years that I've started who want more and think actually, I think there's more in me than just being a singer. And that was when I actually started to really take some writing seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying, like completely. You it's like, I don't know, like, it's almost like life's happening around you, like you have your kids and you're growing up, and there's all this other stuff happening. And it's like, you sort of have forget that you have these skills almost, excuse me, that you actually used to write when you're a kid, and then all of a sudden go, why am I doing that anymore? You know? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, because it comes writing comes from somewhere else. And singing and performing is such an outer thing. It's what's on the outside writing is what is on the inside. And it's learning. For me, it was learning to tap into that, because I had spent such a long time living outside of myself. And so that's been a whole new experience for me, which has been really, really exciting just to find my dip. With it all. And I still don't feel like I've quite gotten there yet. I think. I mean, no one really ever gets to that destination, do they? Where they're like, right? Yes. I've got it all figured out. Yeah. But that in itself is pretty exciting, isn't it that you've, you're on this journey. And I'll make for one of the better word. If one uses that with you. And you're like, you're learning these things about yourself. And you're discovering more and more and you know, like, from what you're just saying there, you know, there's more there. And that's pretty exciting. Isn't that? Absolutely. Yeah, it is it is. It's like going on an adventure. Yeah. And I try and use the word Safari because it can get pretty wild in there. That's a cool analogy. Dude. Cuz, yeah, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Stop with the music that you're writing. Now, what's your sort of, I guess your inspiration coming from? Um, I think a lot of it is. From music theater, I've realized. I listen to a lot of music theater and a lot of power vocalists as a teenager as well. And I think I, at this point in time in my life, I think I try and write like that. Even though I don't feel like I have that kind of voice. It's just I suppose it makes it easy for me to concoct a story in my head and visualize what I'm trying to write about. So, yeah, I like to sort of think of it now as being a bit more music theory or music theater oriented. Yeah, quite dramatic. I think I have a bit of a dramatic voice very dynamic. So I tend to like to have lots of dynamics in my songs with lots of little quiet bits, and then really sort of loud. Yes. And, yes, so at this point in time, that's, that's the influence for me. And it took a little while for me to realize that because I was just writing, I was just writing what I was hearing in my head and not really attaching any label to what or any genre. And now the more I think about it, that's where it comes from, I think, yeah, cool. So I think that's the awesome thing about writing your own songs, you can pick where you want the key to B, you can pick the range, and like you said, you can really like accentuate those like really exciting parts of your voice like using the dynamics that's something I've think's really cool even though it I think, clicked into right most of my songs in the same key are so many people do and I I sometimes do as well. I think it just kind of puts because as being vocalist, you know where your voice naturally said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is it's a lot. It's really easy to fall into that trap of oh, just writing in D major. I know it sounds good. Yeah, that's pretty. Good sled down with a young Do you have a day job or is music, everything that you do in your life? Music, I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate that aside from mothering music is the other thing in my life, my husband, and has been insanely supportive of me focusing on music. Because he knows that's what makes me happy. And I, he, he actually wouldn't want me to, to go and do another job. Because every time I come to him and say, Hey, I've been offered this and I and he'll be just like, is that really it? Are you gonna have time? Like volunteering for my kids basketball, like to be the manager of my kids basketball team. And, like, seriously, it's not going to take that long and not take that much time out of my week. So he does get very quite protective of my music. Fear, I suppose you could say so yeah, I'm really, really fortunate that music is is the be all and end all for me, which is great. No hobby at this point in time. But I have I have done some gigs and earn a little bit of money from it, which has been nice. So it's just building on that. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, isn't it? It's a it is a constant. Like you said, it's a safari, it's like it's an adventure. So tell me about your kids. How many kids have you got? I've got three boys. One wants to remain nameless. So I have Max who just turned 13. Last week this week. And I've got twin boys. So Zach, and twin one. And they are 11. So three boys. Yeah. And a set of twins in there. Like that's pretty cool. in there as well. Yeah. So for a little while. I had three and a two for about six weeks. Straight. Oh, man. Yeah. Thankfully, for that whole time. We were over in London at the moment that at that point in time, the kids were all born over there. Were in hospital for three weeks, my husband had the luxury of working for himself and was able to take time off to be with Max while I had to go into the hospital every day. And then my parents actually flew over for six weeks as well. So I think really for the and then my husband was able to take some more time off work. So for the first three months of the life, I had help around me, which was amazing. And then everyone's life just kind of went back on track. And I was at home with three little ones. I can ask a question. So you had you had the twins, after you already had one child? Is it better or worse? Because some people have said this. It's better like their grandpa had twins first because I didn't know what they're in for. Is it better or not worse? Because you know what I mean? But what was the perspective? Yeah. For me, obviously, I can only go by my experience. For me. I am glad that I had the twin second. Because I felt like Max was a really tricky baby. I felt like he never really settled properly for the first six months anyway. And you know what it's like when you're a first time mom, and the moment they're crying, you're thinking, what's wrong? What what do I need to do? Yeah, when I had the twins, I had no choice sometimes, but to leave one of them to cry. I be kinda you know what, you're fine. I'm sort of elbow deep in your brother's nappy at the moment. And I felt it was more about micromanaging the three of them. Yeah, right. More than anything else, but in terms of them as babies and me as a mother and then being second. I feel very fortunate that they were actually second because I felt a lot calmer and a lot more confident as a mum. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I don't I honestly having I do remember one night and I tell this this story a lot to people where I think one of the twins had been crying maybe for two hours, they just wouldn't settle. And just as he settled, his brother decided to kick off. And so when you think oh, great, awesome, you're about to go to sleep. That's great. It's midnight. Okay. Yeah, I can go to bed and the other one kicks off and, and I remember being upstairs and, and they were still in like my baskets. Picking up the basket, trudging downstairs to my husband, who was feeding the other twin who'd settled and just been saying to him, I am so sick and tired of crying babies. I'm just sick of it. And there were definitely moments like that where I just thought it's just too much the feeding I at night time. I remember not doing as the books telling you to do where if you feed one child, one twin wake the other one up to feed. I remember just thinking, oh my god, I'm so tired. The moment you fall asleep, I'm gonna go back to bed but which was so stupid, because half an hour later, the other ones woken up anyways. So I've never ever noticed sleep deprivation like that i So even as unsettled as Max was as a baby. I certainly didn't have the sleep deprivation with him like I did with Zach. I couldn't talk. I couldn't. I couldn't string a sentence together. I was just that tired. And that was yeah, that was pretty tough. Even with help for the first few months. Yeah, gosh, it's full on. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And also managing, as I said, managing the three of them. I did a lot of reading about that. Before that came along. And you have absolutely no control on managing your children. When you're out and about we look like an absolute circus. Walking around. It was just me and this wall of children I had, I'd usually have Max and Zach in the stroller. And I'd had because he was really tiny when he was born I'd had strapped to me. So it'd be like baby on my chest. Two little ones in front of me and just walking. And it wasn't a like a front and back pram. It was a side by side. Yeah. Yeah, I was literally a circus everywhere I went. And so people would often stop me obviously, as they do they see twins, or I'd have both twins in the stroller and Max, I'd be holding my hand, people would gravitate to the twins. And it's initially and oh twins and Lincoln, Irene, which is fine. But inevitably they score. How old are they and books but always say that this is going to happen. And to always include your oldest child first in the conversation and say, Well, I have max here. He's too Zakka. Whoever meant sold, they were but again, people would then say to max, oh, you're a fake brother, Aren't you lucky, you've got twin brothers. And he's not stupid. He wasn't stupid back then. And he knew immediately that this conversation is still about them. And it's about me. So for that first kind of 12 to 18 months for Max was very difficult as well, because he just hated being stopped. He got to a point where I'd pick him up and he'd be grabbing my face. And he'd be saying, Go, go, go, go now go because he just hated it. Yeah, totally understandable, because I left out and what what can you do as a mother in that situation when other people's actions are beyond you? And that's it. You're trying your best, you know, you're saying, you know, you're including him, but people are just still when, you know, twin land and all lost in our heads. And yeah, that's one isn't it for a little filler like that? Yeah, yes. He has he recovered from that, or does he still feel? Yeah, right. Now, yeah, he not that he would understand just yet but I think there is a lot of trauma in him. He doesn't he he, he really sometimes is quite venomous to to one of the twins in particular. And he, I mean, look, he's a teenager now and he's going through teenage angsty sort of stuff. Very like me. I'm in terms of trying to be the black sheep of the family, which he is. And that's fine. But I do sense that a lot of his actions and a lot of what he says is some very deep trauma that, like I said, he doesn't even know exists yet. And also to, I think, I obviously was doing my very best to cope. But I was tired, I was tired. And so when I had Max in bed and wanting me to stay in cuddle him, all I could think of was, I need some time out. I, you're in bed now. And I need to walk away and just be me for a couple of hours before I go to bed. And I look back on that now and I feel terrible. But but the thing you got to look after yourself, don't you? Well, you can't look after anybody say absolutely, absolutely. My husband, very early on after having Max. Five weeks into it, I was sort of wasn't really sort of singing at the time, but I was actually managing the band that I was singing in and, and I remember being a band of I was the only female and it was blokes. And obviously, they're not really understanding what it is to be a new mum. And trying to juggle that and trying to juggle having my first child and I just remember just falling in a heat one afternoon and my husband actually saying to me, remember when you're in a plane and you have a child and those oxygen masks come down, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child. Otherwise, you're useless. It's like it's an oxygen mask. And even now, he'll still say to me, you have to put your mask on first. And it makes my day just to know the aura around and it makes my day just to see your face, then a bullet in my body ricochets and it makes my day just to see you. And it makes my day just to know that you're around and it makes my day in those those early days when you're in the thick of it. Was there any music was there an outlet for you. Um, I was very lucky in those early years when I was in London. Even though I had no family around, I had an amazing support base with other mothers that I had met at a at an antenatal class. And they they were like family, I had a couple of other friends as well who lived a bit further away. But all I needed to do was just call them day and night if I needed to. And they they would do whatever they could to get to me. So I felt incredibly supported in that way. And because I had a really lovely network of other bands that I was working for as well, I was able to I was really lucky, I was able to actually pick and choose the gigs that I wanted to do so I was wasn't doing music on a full time basis like I had been. But yeah, I was in a really really fortunate position of still gigging when I wanted to gig. And I didn't have to travel very far if I didn't want to. So it was amazing. It was when I came back to Australia was when things got tough, and I did nothing. I didn't know anyone down here the two friends that I had, he lived right over the other side. So it wasn't like I was seeing them all the time. And it was me and four walls and three little babies. And my husband was working in town so he and he was doing long hours and they jet sack took a little bit of time to walk so they weren't really essentially very mobile when it came to getting out and about. I was going to a playgroup, but the playgroup the mothers, there really weren't the people, they weren't my people. And it was just something to do. And I set up a studio in the spare room, but I didn't really do anything with it at all hardly. And I think, because I didn't have the tools to write I knew that that's kind of where I wanted to head but I still had such incredible creatives create writer's block. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know how to access that either. So not only was I not really accessing it, physically, I didn't know how to access it mentally either. So it was really tricky and it wasn't really until I turned 40 And Max It started school. And I wasn't doing any singing at all. I wasn't gigging. And I thought, right. What do I want to do? What? It's come to a turning point for me now? What do I want to do? Do I want to just keep singing covers in cover bands? Or do I want to explore something a little bit further? And that was when I decided that I wanted to start exploring, creating for myself because I hadn't done it for such a long time that I wanted. Yeah. It felt scary. And as I said, it felt wild. But I it was just kind of this internal pool for me, I think, yeah, to do it. But again, I didn't know where to start. And I actually started, I found I realized I wanted to sing in a choir for the walk. harmonies, and I thought, ah, actually, singing in a choir may write a bit right about now would be incredible. And I think it was back in 2016, the stars aligned and I found on the ABC News website, this new choir that had started up called Melbourne indie voices. Oh, yeah. And yes, yeah. And they've only just started, I think they'd started the week before. And yeah. had was with being interviewed. And I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I don't want to sing anything like that. I didn't want to go there. The whole idea of singing arrangements of songs by independent artists, I just thought, ah, that's it. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And, ah, it was so much fun. And I met some incredible people. And Sofia and Joshua partner were just so insanely or are so insanely talented. And it was just lovely to sing, again, sing with people. And so I did that for a few years. And that also did start to encourage me to start writing as well. And I was getting lots of inspiration just from seeing what fear had created with her arrangements for songs and, and yeah, that's it, that was a real inspiration to get moving with it and start just looking at how I can start, what are the tools that I can find to get me moving with it? And yeah, and then eventually, I thought, I don't, I moved on from singing in the choir, I thought I just want to invest in myself now. And COVID hips, and it was for me, it was probably the best thing ever creatively. I was able to actually, the boys were great with remote learning. And we had some hiccups with with Max the eldest for a while, but that just yeah, that just really gave me a chance to start really exploring and just through the power of social media, meeting people and yeah, so that's been that's been it really? Isn't it funny how things come to you at the right time? Like when you need stuff, and things just appear? I just love that. That's an awesome, yeah. Oh, it's something that I think I've I've really become really interested. I mean, I've been interested in it for a really, really long time. But now I'm really delving diving really deep into it is like manifestation and spirituality and meditation. And I find that I have a really, really amazing routine now of meditating in the morning and journaling and object writing and really learning about and harnessing the sun. I'm looking for just harnessing the energy to create and to open up that channel and be the antenna and take all conscious thought out of out of it all and just allow something else to take over. So yeah, so I really have this huge belief now that and as you you've probably read and adapted yourself where yeah, when you when you speak something out loud. And you have a feeling connected to that. That sentence or that voice. It does. It's an antenna. It comes to you. Yeah, it makes it real. Now Yeah, absolutely. I've had too many things in my life occur that I have wanted to happen for me to think this is not coincidence. Yeah, at all. I've called this into existence. Yeah. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Like, I remember once I remember who it was, someone told me, because at this point, I was just doing gigs. I wasn't writing, but I was just doing gigs and doing whatever just sort of floating through not really, with any sort of purpose or whatever. And someone said to me, but what, like, what do you really want to do? What do you what do you what is your focus? And I sort of had to stop and think about it? Because actually didn't know. And I thought, well, actually, I'd really like to get back into my writing. And they said, Well, what do you want to sort of achieve with your writing? And I? And I said, Well, you know, I'd like to write a couple of songs, whatever. And they said, no, no, no. Think about what you want to happen. What do you want? Like, it was, it was almost like, visualize, see yourself, in this point, doing whatever. And I said, I'd really like to write some really good songs, and have someone that's going to produce them really well. So they sound really good. And it was just like, I don't know, I just something completely shifted in me. Yeah. And it's like, now I'm just about finished this album. And I'm so happy with it. Because it's just, I don't know, it just you Right? Like when you when you put it out there and you actually allow yourself to be open. And yeah, like taking away how it's going to happen. You know, necessarily planning things down to the nth degree, whatever, you just get clear with what you want. It's amazing. Like it is amazing. Yeah, blows my mind. It does. And this is something that I'm trying to teach my children as well. So the twins responding really well to it. Yeah, Max, not so much. Yeah. That teenage isn't? Yeah. And I think also, too, it is, as I said to you before, I think it is a little bit of that trauma that's in him because he at this point, and he was always a happy child, I look at photos and he had, he was always smiling and loving life. But I, he at the moment has sort of is walking in the dark path in terms of the world is a horrible place. And there's nothing good about it. And human beings are awful to each other. And what's the point and, and so he's not wanting. And it's just the stubbornness in him as well as he's not wanting to respond or taking anything that I say about, well, whatever you look for, it's what you're going to find if you're going to look for the bad stuff. That's what that's what's going to present to you if you if you look for the good, it works for the good stuff, too. But at the moment, he's he that's not the track that he wants. And I'm not worried at this point in time. Yeah, yeah, that's part of his outlier kind of persona that he likes to revel in. And he's always liked to be that type of person who wants to walk to the beat of his own drum, which is amazing. Like, it's something that I want him to continue on. And it's, I guess, I was like, That is a child to, like, you can't tell me what I need to learn and think and do and you've just got to make the mistakes yourself. And eventually, something will click and I know that will happen with him too. And it's just him knowing that they're here to be the place that he can learn. Hmm Yeah, but it's it's true, isn't it? Yet you call it into existence, you become accountable. I think that's what it is to like when you're I think as creatives just what you were saying it's, it's almost like you and you've probably had loads of other people say this to you as well. You have to give yourself permission, don't you? Which is so stupid. To want to have those things. Yeah, to want to be the songwriter to want to have that album released and to know that you're just as deserving of that as somebody else. And it's not folly. It's not stupid. It's something that you really want to do so why can't you do it? Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that it sounds so simple. gets in the way of that it's actually yeah. I'm conscious. Mr. Something else I've been really sort of studying as well as is brainwaves and and how they affect us in everyday life. And why is it that when we're about to fall asleep is when the songs come to us and and I think from what the minimum minimal amount of research that I've done, I think your brain way seems to have a lot to do with it. When you're in a better state is when you're the most relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. When you're relaxed is when the ideas and the creativity come to you. I find, like over the years, like, like you say, when you're about to fall asleep, but also, when you're in that meditative state where you're not thinking about anything in particular, I know how many times over the years, I did a lot of yoga. And I'd get up from Shavasana. And be like, Oh, I've got the best idea. It just literally. And I think, I don't know if it was Einstein that started it was the first person to talk about this theta state and your brain the way that your brain is, and you're just Oh, okay. I can't remember that just rang a bell. As soon as you said, I thought, oh, yeah, you're going to talk about the theta state. And for some reason, I've got Einstein in my head. But yeah, it's like, you literally change your brain. That's just I don't know, because that's the thing I've always, I always find so fascinating, is how you can literally just get stuff in your head, like, yeah, it just comes in and it and it doesn't just come in like one thing. It comes in, like an entire tune and all the words and you're like, where did this come from? Exactly. Right. Yeah. It doesn't it so when, when I'll, so for my single that I released last year, and and people say oh, so what was the process? Blah, blah, blah. And when you when I tell people, it sounds so simple. It's like, oh, yeah, it came to me in 10 minutes. And it's the living daylights out of me, because that's not that's not what happens. Usually, when you sit when you write a song or create it, it doesn't always happen to you in 10 minutes. But yeah, it's funny how you could just be doing like the simplest of tasks, like sweeping the floor, or vacuuming or whatever. And I find actually hanging out washing, I get lots of ideas on a hanging of washing. Yeah, yeah. It's like those simple repetitive moves that your body just does like that muscle memory. Yes. And then brains. It's like, a walking meditation basically, like, yeah. But your brain is in that other state. Because, you know, if you sort of switched off from that, you know, the consciousness. Yeah, I wrote a song about what it what it's like to write a song. Cool. music in my head. It's literally like, like, it just, it just comes to you. Like, I think there was something in there like, I could be walking or in the shower, or, you know, wherever and like, it just comes to me like, it's just, I find it amazing. It's the worst thing. It is, is it and it is just because we're relaxed. When we try too hard. It's like we're just blocking ourselves and you feel it internally as well, don't you? You feel like your stomach's just, and your heart space is just gonna drip. Yeah. And it's open to receiving anything. I was watching an interview very quickly. On a real yesterday actually about Jack White, what you were saying about as creatives we are or songwriters, we are antennas only. And Michael Jackson said something about the fact that when we're creating we have to let God in the room. Yeah, and I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I get that I get that. We have to just let the energy come to us all. Yeah, you can't force control. Yes, you can't. But as soon as you start to force stuff, it's like you're literally banging against that. Yeah. It's like, like you said, you close off. That vessel is is not a thing. Yeah. It's amazing. I love it. I do I, I am I over COVID. I remember giving myself a challenge to write a song in 24 hours, I was sort of all about the challenges at the time. And because it was it was making me accountable. And it was helping me manage my time. And I already had a bit of the chorus anyway, but I didn't know what to put around it. So I thought, right, I'm gonna write a song 24 hours. And the next day happened. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a second verse. It was that dreaded second verse didn't know what to do. And I was putting so much pressure on myself. And eventually I just thought, right, I'm gonna go for a walk. Actually, no, I'm gonna go for a run. And I went for a run and I came back and bam, there was my second verse. All of it. I did certainly. Well, one time I was writing. Pardon me. I just went for a walk. And I don't usually take my phone with me like I leave at home because I like to not be distracted and I don't like to listen to music when I'm walking. I like to just appreciate the world and hear the birds and you know, whatever. Yeah, and I literally wrote the song. And I was like, Oh, damn, I don't have anything to write it down or Oh, no. So I was like, repeating repeating it repeating it repeating. The house was like Don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Clearly good. All right, good. Oh, I can relate. I can that's a hard relate there. Yeah, it's, uh, I was talking to someone else on this podcast. Katie Callahan actually is a singer songwriter in in the United States. And we were sitting here. And like, sorry, like, in the middle of not the middle of the night, but that moment where you, you about to fall asleep, and you get stuff and you're like, I have to record that I have to get that down. And like she'd have a phone. And she'd like, be hiding in the bathroom something to remember. And then you listen back to it, and you let that understand myself. I've got so many little notes on my phone of just random. Random so or I'll whistle it or try and whistle blowing into the microphone. Oh, God. Oh, absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I do the same thing. I'm like, I write down to the lounge room and get settled the same thing. And then as you said, yeah, the next morning and like, Yeah, but that feeling when you finally get it down, and then you can relax is like the best feeling in the world. Like, I don't have to keep this in my head anymore. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess it's that that age old thing where like the tighter you grip onto something, the easier it is for it to slip out out every fingers. Want it to leave me? I get like that sometimes. I had one the other day where I literally had a song in a dream. I was singing the song in my dream. But do you think I could get it back? No. That's so frustrating, isn't it? Sure. It was a really really good song to cage that's around you. So locked inside there's a voiceless paradise to break them. And then he's the stories of like Paul McCartney dreaming yesterday. And that's how do you do that? I know that that's yeah, he's pretty special. I think he's awesome. I'm a big Beatles fan. But Paul's My face is Hey, see, I was listening to your I was listening to the episode with Georgia fields the other day. Yeah. And I heard the conversation between the two of you and and, and I thought to myself, John's always been my favorite. Yeah. Even though I know is that of there are things that may be called into question. Like now by Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that he was very I liked the fact that he was quite controversial. Yes, everything was very clear on the statement that he wanted to make. Yeah, yeah. He really pushed those boundaries. Sydney. Yeah. And just did not give a shit. Yeah. Why didn't anyone else thought at all? But but then looking at at just the talent of Paul and watching that that. Go back. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn't that amazing. Incredible. And, you know, you knew that obviously that they were kind of like the perceived powerhouse of the the writing side of things. But just to watch Paul, direct everybody. And it's almost like if he wasn't there. Yeah, they would just kind of be floating around and he was the focus. He was the one that was able to go right. Come on. Let's let's I tell you what, when I watched that, I watched it. And I just sat there thinking How the hell did these plugs ever get anything done? Because the amount of stuffing around I said to my husband, it's a miracle we've ever got any Beatles records because I know. Sometimes I thought, like you'd guys like I'm watching it like, you know, I've never seen footage like that, that extended footage, you know, just no learning, you know, not just cut out the nice bits or the productive bits, but just everything. It was like, holy moly. Like, I don't know, it just it really. I've just thought well, you got it friggin and then you've got Ringo sitting there on the drums virtually stoned out of his brain every day. Like, are we doing something now? Like I know exactly like him. I think but yeah, I think to like, when I was younger, before, you know, as you know, you sort of think as you grow up, you get more mature and you can understand people more, and you have more perspective, whatever. I was always really cross at Yokote. But the older I got, I just thought it was inevitable that they were going to part ways like I honestly was a miracle they did as much as they did together. Because yeah, I was so opposite. Like, the more that John basically enlightened himself. And the more that he was able to explore that there's no way he could have stayed with Paul. You know, it just made sense. And yeah, so I think any crutches anymore? Oh, absolutely. No, no, if you're listening, okay. Good. No, I 100% agree. And I think that just kind of, as you said, it comes with maturity and your own experiences as well. And understanding Oh, hang on a second. We, we aren't always the same person as we go through life. Yeah, and there are some people that we will remain in our lives, but potentially will remain in our lives in a different way or Yeah, so yeah, you do understand exactly what happened there. It was literally like, yeah, like a couple that grew apart. You know, like, yeah, that was it. But it did freak me out a bit. How she was just sitting right there when they were playing. No, I sort of felt that was, uh, yeah. I sort of and she was really sort of putting her two cents worth in from time to time who wasn't she was quite interesting. Yeah. I didn't like it. She hadn't been derangement. Yeah, I say, yeah. You had an inducement come in. Yeah. And she was the polar opposite. She's just sort of like this breath of fresh air that was just quite happy just to sort of sit there and have a chat and understand that it was Paul. Yeah. The space. Yeah, I think she's a creative, you know, with that photography side of things. So I think she got that. Boundaries, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Saying that Yoko is quite creative herself. I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing. I don't know. Now. I'm just, you know, making judgments about people that I have no idea. Anyway. Conntrack not what do you have to ask what's your favorite Beatles album? I think it's Abbey Road. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was probably the first exposure that I had to The Beatles. When I was young mum, mum, my mum had the album. And I used to love listening to octopuses garden. Yeah, love, love, love that as a kid. But as I got older, when I was a teenager, I really got into them as well. And I just I did like the fact that it was very two distinctive writing styles. Very much. John side and Paul side and, and my favorite part actually, in the whole album is Maxwell's silver hammer. I'm so glad you say that. That is my favorite. Because we actually used to think some of the Beatles songs to the boys. So we'd always sing, bang, bang Maxwell's silver hammer or Max's silver hammer. We would sing to Zack get sack. So it made me actually seem it made me listen to Maxwell's silver hammer quite intensely at a point in time. And there's this little moment. I think it's in the third second or the third verse. Paul singing it and you actually hear him laugh? Yes. Yeah. Have you heard that? Yes. You can just imagine. Yeah. What is the clowning around in the control room? Trying to make him laugh? Yeah. Oh, yes. I know. It's funny. Paul does that every now and then there's a few other songs. It sounds like he's laughing too. And I just think yeah, now that I've seen that whole you know, the whole thing, I think, oh my god, what were they doing? Like, seriously, someone's praying with their silver hammer been silly. But ya know, that happened just has some of my favorite Beatles songs. Yeah. Yeah, come together something. Oh, I just love something. And I know that was George Harrison. And the very end of the whole album with that medley Yeah, gold. I get goosebumps when I hear that like that. No, I'm getting goosebumps now. Just that that that Latin that last that last little line like the love you love you make is equal to you take it was like oh my god, it's so far cry. Yeah. And I love those last few. How many like the last few chords? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just genius. Same Oh, absolutely. And I wanted to I knew I wanted to write a song. Maybe that was something that could be like the very last song in a concert or the closer of an album like just that song that just made you want to go wow, yeah, yeah, that that's big finish that big finale. Yes. Captured in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you done that? Have you written a song like that that you feel like you've cut I felt like I felt like my single last year was a bit like that. That was what I wanted to try and achieve with that even though it was my debut single that just huge. What was that song? Was that ghost? Yeah, that's those guys. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Yeah, so I I was a co produce with another producer, I sort of I wrote it and just produce the demo and the producer that I hired basically just tightened it up and just put on some better drums and some actual organic bass and guitar and that was it really the rest of it was was all me so. So do you do it on you play the instruments? Or is it you do it on the computer? Or how do you? How do you create that? So I will start on the piano. I'm not I'm a bit of a hack. When it comes to playing the piano. I'm not that confident with it. So I do find having the access to my DAW to be really being able to talk feeling like to be able to enunciate and articulate exactly, well not exactly because I'm still learning how to use it. But it I find it a lot easier to to express what I want to actually write with, with my songs through the through the studio and have access to the layer after layer and track after track rather than just relying on a piano. Yeah. But when I'm when I'm gigging and when I'm doing open mic nights, it is just me and my piano. So I do have to I do write, I will actually compose a song, a piano part on the song that I know that I'll be able to play when I'm singing rather than just being sort of the chords. Yay, me singing over the top. But it's certainly something that I don't naturally feel comfortable and confident. It's taken a lot of work. And I'm still working with that. I mean, I actually bought a, a headset. Oh, yes. Because I just find it's so stressful when I'm playing the piano and singing in public. So not only see where my hands are on the keys, like to remember where the microphone is, and being totally conscious of where that is. And if it's sort of slot starting to slip down, or oh, I've got it in the wrong position, but I can't move it. So I'm kind of playing and thinking and then I'm making mistakes, and I just find it just too difficult. So I thought get a headset don't matter what looks like stress out of it. And yeah, yeah. Because it's quite a spatial thing to like, knowing how far away you are from a mic, like how many times I've buddy hit a mic with my teeth or because like, I've just lost track of where it is. And you know, and that's not even playing as well. That's not accompanying myself. That's just me. Right? Yeah. You turn back around and go oh, there it is. Yeah, exactly. Every morning when I wake up, I keep my eyes closed as on picture in my day, all the carbons of my body and to the touch the phone. So I want to ask you, the rules songwriters of Melbourne that you've been doing some stuff with. Tell me about that. I have, ah real songwriters of Melbourne has been a lifeline. I first got exposed to them through COVID on Instagram, as I think a lot of people did. They've been going now for nine years. They're about to celebrate their ninth birthday. But do then are who started it? And is the CEO, I guess you could say CEO. She, it's her it probably didn't take off until COVID, either, because we were all looking for something outside of ourselves that as creatives helped us to feel like we weren't alone. And I mean, I was in a very fortunate position where I hadn't lost any money I knew lots of I got to know lots of people who lost so much work. And it started out as for me as being a way that I could meet other creatives because I had no, I knew no one. Yeah. I had other mums around, but they weren't singer songwriters, or anything like that. So it was lovely to be able to start to network online. And I guess because of of the confidence that I have in myself now, just, I guess, through getting older, I found it very easy to make myself stand out, but not in a bad way and not to tread on other people's toes. But just being friendly and being supportive of other people and wanting to get to know other people and wanting to get to know other people's stories and realizing that, hey, I've got a story to tell too. And I think I could actually, I think a lot of people could who are younger than me could benefit from listening to my story. And they are amazing at being able to point you in the right direction, to releasing a song or finding in through finding information for you about the industry, the networking nights that they put on, they always have a speaker. And they've had people from publishing companies have had people from Apple or m cos they've had people from music, which Toria just all these amazing people speaking that you would not even know where to start looking. Or you wouldn't have that personal contact with them. Even if it's through an email or sending a bunch of emails or getting on DMS or whatever, then you just, and sometimes you don't even know these people exist or what they do in the music industry, because it's so complicated. There's so many different different people that do different things. And that's yeah, like, that's the thing I find a bit frustrating, like, there's no straight line of how you do stuff. Like know, whenever, like I discovered all this stuff by accident. Like just by, you know, like you register yourself with a pram cost and you can get paid when you perform. I didn't know that before, you know, and put it on the air at stuff on the radio. So the community radio he's like can get access to. And so now if I ever come across anyone who's releasing something who like I just tell them all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but do this and do this and get this number and do that. And you know, like there's just absolutely, there's no way you can go that just says this is how you do it. Yep. No, that's right. And that's something that I have found with the real songwriters. They are that that's the Yeah, that's their role. And they have released academies where people can just basically be given that timeline of what to do from the moment you start recording or even like finding a producer or finding somebody to collaborate, collaborate with and right down to promotion and release dates. And yeah, so we've been we're really fortunate here in Melbourne and even regional Victoria as well, that there is that access to all the information that you need, particularly as an emerging songwriter who is doing it on their own. Yeah, yeah, I've learned that everybody has a place at the table that it's all about collaboration, not competition, like it used to be and that's been really reassuring. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was in need. I am not going to say this in a nice way because I'm a similar age. too, but do you feel like at some point, people think you're irrelevant in music? Because of your age? No, because I don't let them. Yeah, good on you. I don't let them at all. I refuse to believe that I'm irrelevant. I refuse to sit back now and go, nope, I'm too old. And I think actually, that it works in my favor. Because I do feel very strongly about the fact that as a woman, and as a mother. We aren't irrelevant. We still have so much to say. And we probably have more to say, because we have lived more. Yeah. And I think it's our responsibility as older women to forge the path for younger women, something that I've learned a lot just in conversations that I've had with lots of other younger female songwriters. And I mean, we only only had a conversation just really recently, at a performance that I did fall real songwriters. And it was one of the other artists that we sat down, unfortunately, the conversation was interrupted, but she was asking me how old I was, How many children do I have? How old was I when I first started having children. And she said to me, she said, It's just inspirational to listen to somebody who isn't who who has had children later on in life. I mean, I was 35 when I had Macs, and she said that she had just broken up with her boyfriend, she was 29. And there was a part of her that sort of wanted to go back to him because she felt like she was going to miss out on that whole, having a child experience. And I've had lots of conversations with lots of girls who have gone like, I'm seeing my friends getting married and having babies and I'm feeling like I'm missing out. And it's just like following your heart. I'm here to tell you, it doesn't matter. There is no linear timeline as to how you do things. If you want to keep creating, everything will just fall into place. Yeah. Yeah. So I Yeah, and that's been a big thing for me. Now is to just be that advocate to go pay. I started doing this seriously. When I was 44. Yep. So it's never too late. Yeah. Yeah. No, good on. Yeah, that's great. I guess maybe? I think probably I haven't, I haven't been, I haven't been in this side of the music industry long enough to see things occur with attitudes of, I guess, the patriarchy. Having an attitude that you're done by the time you're 21. And if you haven't made it by the time you're 25, then you're no one and I haven't been exposed to that side of things. So I'm lucky that I can remain optimistic. Whereas I think there's lots of other female artists who have been in the music industry who have seen a lot more than I have. And potentially find it a lot more difficult to, to keep going. Yeah, it's interesting, I've just started working with. I mean, I knew that the music industry was literally to business, right? The commercial radio, the signing, record labels, whatever, then just for this album that I'm releasing, I've just started working with a proper rep that I've never done, I'll never forget before, because I want this, I mean, this is what I say every time I don't know if this will be the last album I get to make, you know, so I want to do it properly, I guess. And and so it's amazing. When you they sent me this this like a you know, like you have a family tree with all the bits going everywhere. It was like that of the music industry. And it's like, if you can stay away from all that other bullshit and be independent, you've got so much more chance of remaining true to yourself, not having to do with all the the white men that make all the decisions for you. Making really great connections with people in community radio, and, and getting your music to the people who will genuinely be connected to it and be being flipped not influenced by that I'm affected by it and feel something by it. And it's like why the hell would anyone ever want to sign their life away? You know, to these big businesses like it doesn't make sense. And I was even saying so Max's has been wanting to play guitar now for the last 18 months, and he he's insanely good. Yeah. I mean, I know everyone says that about their kids. Yeah. But as a musician, you sort of know whether they are or not. Exactly, yeah. And just seeing the passion that he has for it. And he's still, because he's still so new at it in his little mind. He, he's thinking, it's all about sort of like getting the record company and signing the contract. And that's what it is. And I can't remember what we were watching. But we had a conversation very quickly about the music industry and, and the business behind it. And, and he was talking about, like, bands selling out and singles and blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, this is what happens when you're signed to a record label, you actually don't get the voice, you don't get a voice, you don't get a choice as to what song you release, you are told and you are a product. And you are dispensable and disposable. And as you said, it is an asset. It's a business. That's why it is called business. Nothing to do with the music is just there a product it the music is the thing that you're selling, like if you sold shoes or something, you know, I hated shows like Australian Idol and that it's like you're literally trying to find someone who's going to make money for you. You know, and over the years, like my sister and I both sing and peoples are you guys should go on Australian, I was like, I was so firmly against it. Because I just was so cynical of that world with good reason that, you know, they're gonna take you they're gonna turn you into something else that they want, that's going to make more money that's more marketable, or, you know, and I just go night that that's not for me. I don't want. And I also I don't think, I don't know, I just want to be who I am. And that sounds like it's a cop out like, I don't know, no, no, no, no, not at all. I don't want to I don't want to go wear some clothes that I don't that don't suit me or change my hair. Like I just want to be who I am. That's it. And I think you're happier that way, too. Yeah, thank you for being like that, Oh, I hate those shows with an absolute passion. And yeah, and anyone who knows me know, who's how I don't like to rent I used to when I was younger, but I don't like to rent anymore. But if you really let me go, I'd be like, All right, let me tell you. But I guess to the general population who don't have the kind of access that we have, I mean, we're in a really privileged fortunate position where we have first hand experience. What it is, I mean to someone, there's so much to think about, like standing in a recording studio is just so beyond the realms of fantasy for most people. Whereas for people like you and I, it's nothing to die young going into the studio when she's dead. Yeah, like literally like, Yeah, ah, yeah, it's funny. And but that's the thing once you know, it freaks you out. Because you know that, you know, when I realized how songs got onto commercial radio, I was like, that they're paid. Like, it's to do with the deals that they make with the record companies to play this song, like, and I was like, There's no way I'm ever going to hear my music on that. And it's like, well, that's great. So I'll forget about that. And I'll just, you know, focus on the things that, that I can do. And it's like, yeah, when not everyone wouldn't know you that, you know, like, no, absolutely not, particularly, I think when you're younger, as well. And you do just have that. That idea of, that's what it is, and you're famous, like I remember teaching singing for a little while back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, and I remember a couple of students sort of Britney Spears was massive at the time and I show my age and and I remember a lot of them sort of saying I want to record contract and and saying, You know what? It's not about having the record contract, and then everything falling in your lap and just explaining to them as best I could before they just sort of saw it has been white noise, what it actually entails and it's someone literally giving you a loan that you miss how you have to pay back. Yes. And if you don't pay it back a bit through record sales and touring, then you aren't you're still owing money. No thanks. Yeah. So yeah, it's just it's, that's what people are exposed to when they're young. They're watching Australian Idol and things like that on TV indefinitely. millionaire thinking oh, this is what it is to this. This is the way to become famous. And this is the way to to be a millionaire. And yeah, it's easy. Easy. Yeah, exactly. And I think what sort of makes me really annoyed about those those sorts of programs too is when they they lock on to say an old person who says, This is my last chance. That's like, yeah, so for bloody television play. Yeah, that'd be the less than about those shows about that. Yeah. And, look, I could, no, I'll stop now. I won't stop again. I know, saying that's the thing. I know, actually. Just Just to quickly, yeah, one more point, I do remember going on to the application form of the voice just to see what it was about. Because I, I remember googling about what the actual contractual obligations are of the contestants. And, and I went on to the onto the application form, and there is actually a bit on the application form that asks, Who would you dedicate this performance? To? So they're fishing? Yeah, for the story? Yeah. Yeah, that story? Yeah. And I thought, there it is. That's what they want. They want that sob story. Yeah. So like bullshit Sarah? We're changing tack slightly, I want to talk to you about something I like to talk to people about the value of their art or their creativity. And you mentioned before that your music is a hobby. How do you because you don't necessarily earn, you know, a massive income from your music? Does that, in your mind diminish at all? The value of it? Overall? No, not at all. Yeah, I think because I'm still learning how to do it with the object in mind that this is how I do want to earn money. So I think I'm still sort of walking up that ladder, to get it to that point, and to know that it's okay to want to earn money from it. But that it is, it's, I think, also, too, when you have that in the back of your mind, sometimes that puts a bit of pressure on I know, it puts pressure on me. So I'm quite happy to know that my art still has value, because I'm still putting out putting it out into the world. And it's something that comes uniquely from me. And it's wonderful If people hear it and relate to it, even if it's just one person. So no, I don't think it does diminish it at all. And I part of the reason why I wanted to start creating and learning how to access that part of myself was to show my children that it doesn't matter how old you are, you are always learning and you can always learn a new skill. And we are never taught at school, the process of learning at all. We're just expected to sit down and absorb information where it's not linear. It's not like once you've cracked something, oh, I can do this now. And you keep doing it. No, it's always two steps forward one step back. There's always frustrations there's always that feeling of oh, I did this yesterday. Why can't I do it today? Yeah, that feeling so I think that in and of itself is art. Yeah, that learning process. So it's all valuable. Yeah. in any form. Any money from modern art? Yes, that's I knew you were gonna say that. I sort of I've got to work out a way of wording that question so it's not so walking you into it? Yeah, no, that's fine. Oh, yeah. No my arts crap because I don't make money from it. and also to I see, I've got a cousin, who is a singer as well. But she is a completely different style to me. And we really, sadly don't have a lot to do with each other, which is quite sad. But at the same time, she still is in the old music industry mindset of competition. And I think that's potentially why we don't ever really get on. Or she sees me as a threat. I don't know. But I kind of feel like she's feeling like that we're in competition. And I see how much stress and pressure she has placed on herself in the past with making albums. And I think the last album that she made one of the songs that she did actually got a nomination for Best song for the golden guitars up in Tamworth, I think back in 2013. But she had placed so much pressure on herself that if this album didn't do any good, she wasn't going to do it anymore. No. And I think that's really, really sad. Yeah. That she was just it for me. That's not art. No, that's that's running a business isn't like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think now she is actually a surgical nurse. And I think like any creative, you put it on the shelf, we put it to bed for a number of years and kind of go up and up. But I don't want to I'm not ready to do that yet. It kind of hurt me a little bit. But I think now she's at that point where she's, she's wanting to start to get back into it. I know, she is actually singing in cover bands up in Tamworth now. So she's getting back into that side of things. But I think she's actually really from what I hear. She's actually really keen to get back into writing again. But yeah, just I think it's really sad when we placed pressure on ourselves that yes, we have to make money and this has to do really, really well. And yeah, no, not that's not for me. I think that that whole thing, it just takes away that ability to like we were talking before about being in those states or being in those, you know, mindset to be creative. It just shuts all that down. Yeah, exactly. Just doesn't doesn't work. That's it. I mean, it's it's gonna be fun. Yeah, absolutely. God, I can't be stressful. No, I want it to be stressful. That's the thing like you've got enough stress in your life with you know, families and kids and jobs and whatever else in the thing that you do for fun. You want it to be fun. Yeah, exactly. Stop stop. Your stub stub stub that you mentioned you, your boys there how you sort of showing them, you know, different things. Do you feel like it's good for them to see you as not just mom and I always say that Jasmine, because you're not just mom. So we're never just man, but that you do things outside of your mothering role, I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. It took them a long time to understand. They would see me go to choir. Yeah. And every every Monday night and it would be sort of quickly shoveling going down my throat and off I went. And for a long time it would be like lag and leaving. Why are you going and they just didn't understand that and I distinctly remember one day doing something writing something and and Max coming out I don't even know how old he was he probably about seven or eight coming into me and just going mom, you shouldn't be making music. You should be making my lunch so no, I think it's very important for them to see that. I have other interests outside of being a mum and I know lots of mums will agree when when you say that it makes you a better mum. Because you're happy and it will there will come a time when they will understand me they understand now I fully but yeah, when they were when they were little they didn't obviously but I I know after releasing my single last year, that they are our are very proud of me, even though Max probably wouldn't admit it, but it was one of the twins, Zach was always he's always telling people at school that I seen and he's always showing what I do on a showing Spotify and showing all his friends and everything that I'm doing. And I helped out at a cross country thing for one of the twins classes a few weeks ago, and a little girl came up to me and she's just like, you're on the internet. So, yeah, I think they need to see that I am doing something that I really enjoy. And it makes it makes me happy. It's part of who I am. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is very important that I'm, I'm particularly too because I don't work. So it's, it's even more important for them that they see that I am, Mum, but I am also me, as well. And I have an identity, because you know what it's like when you when when you first got children, you're known as Max's mom. And it's like, I don't have a name. I was gonna say that earlier, actually, when you're talking about the twins, when you get to talk with in the street, like I recall, you know, people see you and they'd straightaway just latch on to the baby. And it's like, I'm actually here, you know, I'm the one that thinks like, I'm the one that's keeping them alive. But you know, to worry about me. And they'll be with the three of them get to like Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you are, you do just kind of become this soulless figure, don't you when you first become a mother. And that's really, I think it's really, really difficult to reconcile with. Because so suddenly, everyone else's life, I remember being pregnant with Max and sitting in the lounge room one night, just in tears, because I just thought, I'm the first one in my friendship group to have a baby. I hadn't met my mom's group at this point in time. And everyone else's life will go on as normal. Even to a certain extent, my husband, he still gets to go to work and come home. Whereas my whole life in the blink of an eye is going to change. And I think that that was a really, really difficult realization for me. And I remember actually feeling very angry and very upset about that. A little while, and just feeling this is not fair. Yeah. But you get over it, don't you? In your arms, you're like, Oh, fine now? Well, not really. I know you made it. So fat in the end, eventually, I think it through the help of, you know, continuing your creativity, just to remind yourself that you still have these skills and abilities and gifts. It's like they don't just disappear suddenly, when the baby pops out. Like no, no. Exactly, absolutely. I was even. I've been doing some some tuition with with a producer over in the UK, Aubrey Whitfield, and she is just about to have her first child in June. And she is an incredibly busy producer. And she cannot get over the attitude towards her with some people in terms of if she, for example, isn't able to get a song to an artist on time because she's been tired or she's had morning sickness. And it's amazing just how unforgiving. People are like it's yeah, we know we're not sick. But you do just have to cut pregnant women a little bit of slack. And even when I was really heavily pregnant with the twins, I got onto the tube and the train. And I had a little like baby on board badge and I was quite big at this point in time. And there was a man sitting in the special seat. And he was surrounded by bags and I looked at him and I say Excuse me, could I please sit down? And he looked at me and he was French, just from the accent. He was just like, but I have all these bags and I was like bye Baby bags get off. Oh my god. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like, like a hug to someone else the other day like, we're literally continuing the human race, you know, without us having children birthing children, the world would end. But no, you can't sit down because my bags are on the floor. You know? That's it. I know. And I know that there are some people, some women that potentially do come across as being entitled, because they are mothers, and they have birthed children, and they feel entitled for the world. For them to park the seas and the world to revolve around them. I do get that. But at the same time, yeah, it's just like, rolling a person in me. My choice, but I just don't get that like that she couldn't happen. Like you lose sight of the of those the amazingness of the whole thing? I don't know. It's really sad to think that we're just not supported. Yes. Yeah. We should be. Yeah. And I think it's again, it's a it's a Patrick patriarchy thing, I suppose where we're, this is what we are meant to do. So yeah, why do we feel like we should be needing like, preferential treatments? And I think that's where it stems from? Yeah, I think so it is a lot going on there. But I'll stop myself. Because if I start Oh. Bla. Jana, you just I want to ask you, if you've had sort of anything experience with mum guilt, over the years, when it comes to your music it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, maybe from time to time in the early days? I did. Because they were little. And they were needing me. And I didn't have the help around me. Where I didn't have like a mom close by or a sister close by who I could just be like, Look, can you take the kids for the day just so I can do this? And I'm fine. So I think in the early days, I did, particularly when I first started like doing choir, for example, and leaving them and thinking that yeah, I feel guilty for leaving them. But thankfully, with the help of my husband as well, I was able to let that go quite quickly and understand that I need to do this. And I'm not going to be a good mom, if I'm going to put that guilt on myself. Because they the kids get over it. Don't they like that? They might be like, Oh, Mom, where are you going? What are you doing? But then to seven years later, it's just like, Oh, look at that. It's like jewelry from off to the next thing distractions did exactly, exactly. i My eldest for quite a long time. Actually, it wasn't just the music thing, it would be like if I put into bed and then I'd quickly pop off up to the shops because it was easier to do it on my own obviously, because I didn't have to haul three kids out of the car. So it would just be ducking up to Kmart or something like that to do something and I would come home. And Max had been in bed for an hour or more and he'd be waiting for me to get home. And then the moment I'd walked through the door, he come out of his bedroom and give me a hug and say to me why Where did you go What I didn't, why are you leaving that kind of thing. And that happens a lot when he was little. And I couldn't work out why but my husband and I like why are you doing this? Like why Mom's coming home? And I spoke to my grandmother about it. And she said to me she she made a really good point. And she said to me, maybe because he's always told that if he goes out on his own, that he has to be careful and something might happen to him. Maybe he feels that something like that is going to happen to you and I thought oh my My goodness may potentially be what it is. Yeah, right element of worry of this is a date not a dangerous place because you don't want it to be just a dangerous place. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, I'm not allowed on Maya out on my own. So I don't want you Yeah. Which I've just thought that's a really valid point. And the moment I started to reframe it in that way, I became a lot more empathetic to him. Yeah, rather than getting frustrated with it. Yeah. Hmm. At the moment, my seven year old is going through this Age of Reason where he discovers that he's a, I don't know, a sentient being, and he's controlling his thoughts and also realizes that people die. And that when his parents who died, oh, wow, conversations of evenings, like, Oh, of course, at bedtime, you know, when when there's nothing else to do but think. So yeah, he's had a shocking few nights, I've actually had to be back in there with him, helping him to fall asleep, which I haven't, you know, years and years and years and years. Yeah. So to my husband, we have to be really kind to him and not tell him off. And even though we're frustrated that we've, you know, can't get some time to a sales, but you know, it'll pass but yeah, that's it, isn't it? And it's very easy to look at it from an adult perspective. And think, why you're doing this for like, yeah, you're being really illogical. And you're being silly. Like, it's, that's Yeah, but when you look at it from their point of view, and then I think that happens when you start to just be kind to them and understanding and Yeah, Mike appealing rational to us. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very real problem. Yeah, that's it. He said to me the other day, he just wanted to sit with me. So I just want to spend as much time as I can with you before you know. And then I thought back to my, my eldest who is 15. And when he he went through it a lot younger. He was like, everything he did was early, he talked early, like everything was early. And I remember thinking, God, you weren't like this. At seven. He was like, a lot earlier. And he said a thing to me, he said, are when you die, I don't want them to put you in the ground. I'll go in the ground with you. So I don't miss you. And I've always remembered that and I think oh my god. That's how that's how he's rationalizing. Losing, you know, people. Yeah, God, it's big. Isn't it? Like, being a little person and having that massive thing? So? Oh, yeah. That just reminded me when you're talking about your little man, yeah, it's a real version of an existential crisis read literally, isn't it? Yeah. All of a sudden, there's this whole extra thing happening. And you're aware of so many other things that you didn't really get like, you knew it was there. But you didn't understand the magnitude of it, I suppose. And how it would affect you and your your emotions related to it. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. Tell you what betimes makes you think it does bring you back as an adult to think about important things like that, I think to think, I don't know, you take that stuff for granted, I guess. And then, when someone little person says that you think Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Because I guess it feels like such a long way away for them to be dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's when you sort of start to think, oh, hang on a second. You see your grandparents passed away. If you're lucky enough that you're an adult, you still have your grandparents. I mean, I'm lucky enough. I've still got one grandmother, she's 91. And I just think to myself, once she goes, then it's my parents, and they're in their 70s Now, and they are facing their mortality as well. And my dad had a cancer scare last year, and that's really changed him profoundly, as well. So just kind of thinking wow, like the last 20 years have gone really quickly. And if I'm lucky enough, I've still will have hopefully my parents in another 20 years but at the same time, what is their health going to be like? And it's sobering, isn't it? Yeah, that it just it's Yeah. And to be like my grandmother and think to yourself, I wonder how much longer I have left? Yeah, I do. We have haven't we've gone down this path. But I do that and I think I have these like every few few years. I guess you have this time. More, you just literally take stock and you like what you've just said they're like, Okay, so I'm 40 nearly 40 5am I halfway through or am I, you know, three quarters of the way through? Like, will I get to see my children to have children? You know, will I be grandmother? And you just think, oh my god, this is like life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes you and I think when I turned 40, I thought to myself, I've tried not to sort of see the new decade as being this threatening thing. And I was fine leading up to my 40th birthday. But I remember when I did turn 40 All of a sudden, it just hit me. Oh, who am I? Who am I? I'm not this sort of bouncy little kind of like blond haired Jojo, that everyone has known me. I don't identify with her anymore, but I don't know who I am now. And it very, it was a real shock to the system to go. Whoa, I don't think I'm actually not having a midlife crisis. But I have actually hit the next chapter in my life. Like I am actually all grown up now. Yeah, yes. But yeah, with that sense of maturity, you you do stuff. Right. Well, I don't know how much longer I do actually have. Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously sort of start weightlifting. As I say when it's daring definitely. Right anything coming up that you'd like to share? I am. I haven't decided yet, which I'm going to actually release some singles or whether I'm actually going to release an EP. My goal for by the end of this year is to actually release some music, some more music, but I'll be doing it completely self released in terms of honing my own mixing and mastering skills, they're not getting any outside help. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And just to, to have that catalog of songs on Spotify, a friend of mine did some research really recently. And I don't know what she was looking at. But it was basically saying that when people look at your Spotify profile, they actually want to see that there's more than one song, they want to see a catalog of songs, which I don't have. So that's what I want to do, I want to just have that catalog. And just, they don't have to be perfect. And I'm not going to promote them as heavily as what I did with my last single know that I have done it. And I've gotten more music out there that I've shared properly. And I will actually release another single where I will really promoted heavily like I did with my single last year, but and I will actually get some outside help with that. Because that particular song, I feel like I won't do it justice and I just doing it myself. It's not quite how I want it. And my skill set at this point in time can't elevate it to the level that I want it to be at. So yeah, I will do that, hopefully by the end of the year as well. But it's, as we all know, it's just finding the time to fit that kind of stuff in and in between like running the kids to basketball and volunteering at school and doing all that kind of stuff as well as running patients in the house. So yeah, so that's the goal. Stay tuned. Yes, that's exciting. That's it and I can appreciate that it's quite daunting to take that next step. and do stuff by yourself, then to trust that you have the skills to be able to do and believe in yourself, too. I think that what do they call it that? I always forget what it's called. Now this gone, but when you don't think you're good enough, you think that are important syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Get over that and say actually, no, I do know what I'm doing. And I am going to do it. I think that's awesome. Going on. Yeah. Well, I, I would like to start producing other people's songs as well, eventually, I'd love that. That's kind of the dream for me is to not only write and produce my own stuff, but to also help other people as well other artists and collaborate with other artists in that way. I'm and I feel like I'm a long way away from that at this particular point in time, but I think I've thought for a while now, I've always thought to myself, it's an expensive hobby, releasing music. And so if I can learn to do a lot of it myself, yeah, rather than spending $1,000 on someone else doing it for me, I'd rather spend that $1,000 and learn how to do it myself, as they say, teacher, give him give a person a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach a person to fish in the lake for the life for the lifetime. So that's how I see it. Yeah. And learning continuing to learn like that. So yeah, I think that's a very recurrent thing that I've heard just, you know, it's a theme that's coming through a lot today. It's great to keep, keep learning and yeah, not settling, I suppose. Yes, the hard part is not being distracted and thinking, Well, I'd like to learn how to do that too. And I was learning the drums. And I still want to keep learning. But I actually started to think you know what, I'm getting off way more than I can chew. I do need to start honing in on some things. The producing side of things under the belt first, and then we'll go back to learning the drums because that was fun. That was so much fun. with like, the, all of that sound engineering side of stuff, like does your brain work in that, that way? It's starting to, yeah, it's really starting to. It's starting to really listen to things now and think about like the frequency spectrum then. And I haven't really quite nailed down compression yet. I'm getting there. But these courses that I've been doing with this producer over in the UK, she's completely self taught. But just the way, she teaches everything, it just makes it sound so easy. And it is easy, the way she just kind of breaks things down. And articulate articulates it it just takes away any of the complicated stuff that you may find on YouTube, like it's taken me, it took me a really, really, really long time just through like YouTube tutorials to get a grip with a get a grip on lots of different things that I wanted to try and try and do in my studio. And I learned more in three months with Aubrey than and got more confident with it in three months. And what I did in three years is insane. Yeah. So now, I know that I can lift up the laptop. And I can listen to something now and be like, right, I want to have a little bit of delay at this point. And I know how to do it. Yeah, rather than Yeah. So it's learning another language and I find it fascinating. So now, the way I listened to music is totally different. Yes. So what I used to I used to just listen to it from a singers aspect. Words and Music words and Melody top line. Now, it's like, right, so how did they achieve the excitement in this space with the music? So what sounds did they use and how many layers and all this sort of stuff that I that I was I was being taught in high school, that at the time I didn't care about like, why is the cello there so but now it's like, oh, right, I can I can see the I can hear the intention behind why they're playing particular things. Like I'm probably a little bit too analytical. But I don't see that for myself as being a downside. If I I guess if my husband's sort of going I don't like this and I'm like yes, but you have to see why they don't. When you have that knowledge, it's almost too much. Yeah. Oh, I can I can relate to that. was just listening to the singer. And I was totally the same when I made my first album. When I was working with the producer I was working with he was like now what? What sort of sound Can you visualize for this? And I'm like, I was coming at it from my point of view. He's like, Oh, no, but what about the instruments? I'm like, I don't know. Isn't that what you do? Like it was, like saloon and understand. And now the second album, I'm like, telling them what I want. Because I can, it is another language like I can actually feel like I can communicate in that way. Now, it totally different, totally different and it's great. I love I love that, that awareness. But with this sound, sound engineering stuff, literally, I just go. I know how to make the things work that I know that I want to do. And then I don't fiddle with anything else, because I've got to touch things. I don't move things that don't fit. Oh, yeah, that's good. Leave it like that. Yeah. I know, it's funny. When I when I was working with with my producer, for my single, there was a certain part in the song that he must have sent it back to me maybe six times, and it still wasn't achieving the sound that I wanted it to achieve. And, and I kept sort of saying to him, like this naturally sort of pushed up further and this. And I mean, I know as producers, you do get so used to working with vocalists and artists who don't know how to get the desired effect that they want. Yeah. And it got to a point where I just thought, oh, you know what, it's just going to be so much easier if I just go back into the studio, and we actually just sit down. Yeah, and go through it. And I had this epiphany of thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to do more, more more. Why don't I actually figure out what can be taken out. So make this part stand out. And it was just a totally different perspective that I had never even it never even entered my mind that that's sometimes what you have to do. And so, we got it done in half an hour, I went into the studio, and I was like, right, I thought about it. What are the instruments that are there? What can we take away? And we worked out what it was and bam, the sound appeared. Oh, there you go. I love that. That's so yeah, but as as Bruce said, in the tutorials, she's she's, I'm doing actually funnily enough a vocal production thing now and like so getting up at like one in the morning because it's a live zoom session at four o'clock in the afternoon UK time. She had we did she did a whole module last weekend on how to work with singers who really don't know what they're doing. They, like don't even know how to sing to a metronome. And I I know Right, exactly. You just sort of think I could you know yeah, that's it. That boggles my mind. But she said she was actually saying that it happens more frequently than what you expect. Wow. So learning how to literally be prepared for anything. Whoa. I never thought about that before. Yeah, so there's there's been quite a few times where my I've gone to bed and then my alarms gone off at like 10 to two in the morning and then I'm up until 330. The couple of weeks ago actually I had a gig about an hour and a half away and we didn't finish until 1230 and I got home at two o'clock and the session was starting at two o'clock. Oh, like jumping in the shower because I was really really sweaty. Jumped in the shower and quickly logged on and got to bed at yeah at 330 Oh yeah. Have to ask your your Instagram is like Dragon Fly industry dragonfly industry. Yeah. Where did that name come from? Right. So I wanted to actually separate my identity of myself and the project because I felt if I had a little bit of detachment from that it wasn't it wasn't including my My whole identity in the project. Yeah, and, and I was fascinated with people who had artist names that weren't a name. And the one that kept coming to me was Japanese wallpaper. And and that's just one guy. I can't remember his name now. I thought it'd be really cool to have an artist name like that. I can hear it on the radio now, like, debut single by dragon flying industry. And I thought it had to be sort of something that potentially could be visual. And I wanted something that included like the idea of me taking off like growing wings and flying. Yeah. And I thought birds and butterflies, cliched overused. I wonder what else there is. And I meditated. When I just didn't remember this. I meditated one Saturday afternoon, it wasn't like I was meditating on it at all. But I was meditating. And I started having a discount, like just a conversation with my late grandfather, mid meditation, and was washing up maybe half an hour later. And then all of a sudden thought, Oh, my goodness dragonfly. I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning. And so I looked it up. That means things like maturity and adaptation, and let me have a look. It just it really, really just resonated to a point where I was just like, shot. Real? And yes, so then I thought, right. Dragonfly. Hmm. I'm building as well. And, and then I thought industry. I wonder what the Oxford Dictionary like I wonder what the actual definition of industry is. And it was something like manufacturing and building from raw supplies. And that just, Oh, that is perfect. And I had felt in the conventional way. And then I had someone say to me when they saw dragonfly industrial in a lineup for an open mic night, that he was really intrigued to find out what it was because when he looked at the words, it actually looked like it was something from the corporate world. No, I don't want that. I don't want no. Yes. So I thought I would change the spellings a little bit. But little did I realize that I was potentially shooting myself in the foot because I'm continually telling people out spell it will be okay. And every live it's all a dream. It's like exploring canvas on one screen. A Chat is the truth of broken lines. The bedtime story is that a threat has only drama. Thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, thanks for sharing all your bits and bobs and, and indulging me where I've wandered off on the tangent. Oh, don't worry, I've done the same thing. That's been great. And yeah, I'll put all the gather up all your links and put them in the show notes. So people want to follow along with you. Safari. Here. Barry. Yeah, and all the best. I hope you Yeah, have a have a good time making new singles and or deciding it's an EP, whatever you just keep an eye out for. Yeah, thanks again. So much. It was great. It was so good fun. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Shweta Bist Indian born photographer S2 Ep51 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) , Spotify and Google Podcasts Welcome. This week my guest is Shweta Bist, a photographer currently based in New York City, USA, and a mother of 2 girls. Shweta was born in New Dehli in India. Both her parents were artistic but put it aside to work. Shweta painted a lot, drew, sang, was in the theatre, acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child, spending time doing oil canvasses . Art was a way for her to find solace and process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007 Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and lived there until 2013 when she moved to New York with her young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light. As her experiences with photography developed, Shweta found that the pictures became more art-like, and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings, more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity and the intimate relationship she shares with her daughters, Shweta stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labour of mothering, highlighting maternal love and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavour is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety, and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children, told from their perspectives. **This episode contains discussions around anxiety and depression** The COVID Family Portrait ©️2021 Shweta Bist Motherhouse ©️2021 Shweta Bist Caught in Single Use - from the Plastic Series ©️2021 Shweta Bist Shwetas article in The Lockdown Mothers Spilt Milk Gallery / Great Pacific Garbage Patch / Andrea O'Reilly Susan Maushart - The Mask of Motherhood The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Rachel's Art of Being the Mum podcast interview / The Museum of Motherhood Connect with Shweta Connect with the podcast Music heard today is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... My guest today is Shweta Bist. Shweta is a photographer, currently based in New York City in the United States, and a mother of two girls. Shweta was born in New Delhi in India. Both her parents were tested, but put it aside to work. Shredder painted a lot drew sang and was in the theater. She acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child spending time doing oil canvases. Art was a way for her to find solace and to process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007, Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and live there until 2013 when she moved to New York City with a young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light as her experiences with photography developed. She later found that the pictures became more art like and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity, and the intimate relationships she shares with her daughters Schwitters stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labor of mothering, highlighting maternal love, and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavor is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children told from their perspective. So whereabouts are you from originally? So I'm from? I'm from New Delhi. I'm from India. And yeah, I was born in in New Delhi. And I lived there for for most of my life really? Up until now. Yeah. Yeah, I left after I got married two years after I got married to my husband. We first moved to Dubai, from Delhi. And then after that, we moved to New York. From Dubai. Yeah, in 2013. So yeah, right. And I left home in 2007. So it's been a while yeah. A company that managed were basically a manufacturer of garments and protective wear for corporate clothing and industrial clothing. And I only had time on the weekends, and I loved taking the camera everywhere I went. And gradually over a period of time, I'd developed much love for it. And you know, when you have children, you know how moms are, and we're always taking pictures of our kids. And that happened with when my first one was born. And even then I didn't think I do this for a living. But, you know, we moved to New York, and after the second one was born, about eight weeks after she was born, we moved here, and I was home with the kids, and, you know, of course, snapping away. And I think somewhere after a year, I kind of thought, you know, I love this, I should, I shouldn't do this for a living. So, but I never really, you know, you know, when the kids were little it was I didn't, it was hard for me to kind of pull myself out of where I had gotten, you know, as a stay at home mom. And I was really very focused on building a life for them and a community for us, because we didn't know many people when we moved here. And so when the little one started going to kindergarten, that's when I, that's when I went back to school a little bit, I went, I took evening lessons at the School of Visual Arts. And, and I started taking pictures for small sums of money, you know, just working freelance, like, family photographs, shooting events, performances. And, but, but I wanted to do something else is what I realized, while doing all this, I was thinking I needed to make art. And because I had so much to talk about, I felt you know, about what I had experienced about being a mother. And it just became important for me to reach out to other women, perhaps, who are going through what I was, in a sense. And for me, it became became mostly therapy. And what I do is I staged conceptual photographs that are that talk about my experience of mothering and my experience as a woman and a mother. Really, basically, that's what it is. And so my work basically evolved over a period of time where it came from a place of necessity, to process what I was going through. And also because I was interested in making art, rather than just doing freelance paid paid work, yeah. Yeah, something like meaningful and then something, I guess that would satisfy what what you needed to get out of it. Like you said, you needed to make art you needed to, you know, communicate to others and share your thoughts, I suppose. Yes, yes. And I think, Well, I think of myself as a thinker, and an image maker, I, I've always thought a lot. Since I was little, my mother was like, You think too much and everybody was mad? Almost You think too much. I'm like, in the beginning, I used to think that something's wrong with me. But, you know, now I've come to a point that I'm like, I'm so old. No, I don't think this is going away. This condition is not going away, I should do something about it. So um, so you know, I, I harness all of that now, you know, because you must, I guess some of us such as thinkers, and it's important for me to make pictures to visualize my interiority. I think that's, that's what I'm doing really. And taking pictures is it's meditative for me. I use it as therapy. Like one might experience flow when you swim, or you run and some people meditate. For me, this is meditation. And in that moment, I connect with the world in this uncanny way. That I'm so aware of the present, you know, in that one moment where the future doesn't exist, and the past doesn't exist, either, really, in a sense, because everything I've known up until that point, is already influencing how I'm thinking and feeling in that moment. And so therefore, it's just that one moment for me at that point and what I do with it, so I just find photography, a very meditative exercise, and I engage in it to shut everything else down. The noise, if that makes any sense? Yeah, no, it does. And I think in the beginning, when I, when I started, it was take pictures of what was in front of me waiting for a circumstance to emerge, you know, the wait, wow can be endless. And, but I think now what I do is because I want to use this as a tool to convey how I feel, and I think, so I construct images, instead of waiting for the image to happen, I, I construct them. So you use your daughter's a lot in your work, it's a wonderful connection between your art and your children. And I guess it's sort of makes sense because of what you're trying to convey. Can you share a little bit more about that? Yes. I think that when I started taking pictures of the girls in the setups in the state in the the stage photographs with the children, it was at the start of the COVID pandemic. And, you know, we were home and the kids were wanting to be busy. And I thought, well, instead of the iPad, why don't we just why don't we take pictures together. And they were quite excited about the idea. And, you know, they still like doing it with me, although now kind of waning from it, you know, the excitement is dying down. But how it started was that basically, and, and over the course of taking pictures with them, what I realized was that when I was sitting with the work, after that, post, the fact I realized that I've been living through them, in a sense, reliving my past, and reliving my childhood, you know, as we do as mothers, I write Allison, like, when you're raising your kids, and you're thinking back, like, how was I when I was how I was, you know, how was I raised and I think all of those questions are raised. And, and I think slowly, I was kind of trying to express that through my work with them. And for me, it became essential than to, to, for them to, for me to give to allow them to have a different experience than what I did in the sense not that I had that my parents had anything to do with the poor experience, but just the fact that I had when I was a little girl, I was in Delhi and you know, life is hard there for girls and I think a lot of people are aware of that. And I wanted them to grow up feeling strong about who they were as, as who they are as girls and you know, and I think therefore, for me now it seems that we take pictures together and I take pictures with them for a sense to role model how you know, that they should feel empowered and feeling in being girls and also to because I talk about motherhood and I talk about how how I feel I think it's essential for them to see that it's okay to talk about the hardships of of being a mother and not pretending that all the time that it's all fun and games and that I'm happy all the time. I think it's the role modeling aspect for me is important because I want to raise empowered girls. So when you were growing up in India, you sort of touched on the way that the guilt life for girls is hard. But you've also talked about being a deep thinker, that and your need to express and to I guess work through things you know, you've talked about your your art being a therapy. Did you have any sort of outlet or any sort of creative things that you were doing as you grew up? Or was that not even an option because you were a girl growing up in India. You know, I was very creative actually, when I was young, I actually think most kids are but especially in my house, I think because my father and my mother both were quite creative themselves. But I think they didn't have the opportunities, you know, they had to make a living and, and also for girls, and anyone in general, I think pursuing a career in art is not something that is considered as a career choice. In India at that time, it wasn't I think, now there's one liberal arts school in, in north India, the first one of its kind. So, um, but I did have a lot of artistic pursuits when I was younger I was I painted a lot. I also sang I was, I was in theater. And, you know, I used to act and I had to Hindustani classical voice lessons. So I had a very my extracurriculars, were all creative. There was I really didn't, I was no sports, nothing. It was all creative work. So I loved it. And I think that, even then, for me, art was an outlet I used to make, I remember these massive oil paintings, which I hated eventually, and I would paint all over them. Again, like my canvases. I call my mother the other day, I said, Do you still have any of my canvases, she's like, which ones. But because I was so such a perfectionist, I would paint and then I was like, Oh, this is rotten. And then I would go paint over them again. But I remember feeling like an oddball. Always because I was such a thinker. And remember, I said, I was told I was thinking too much. So I would spend time by myself a lot. And I would paint and I would listen to music and, and draw, and I think I would just spend time with myself a lot. Yeah, so it was it was a way for me to find solace. And, and process things that weren't going right with me as as a teenager or as a as a young girl. Yeah, yeah. Coming back to your photography, I'm really fascinated by some of the work that you've done, I've been having a look on your Instagram account. And I just want to go through a few of the, I guess the titles in and the projects that you've done. There's one that you did, called the COVID family portrait, which I thought was really, really cool. Tell us about that? Well, you know, I mean, do I, what happened to all the mothers during COVID, it was just, and when I say mothers, I don't want to limit it to just women who are taking care of like, I opening it up to anybody who cares for other people, you know, and I just feel like we were all exhausted. And I remember in the beginning, it was, it seemed like a we're on a holiday.It didn't last too long. And very quickly, I realized that this is not looking good, because we had groceries coming into the house. And I remember there was a scare about it spreading from surface since and my husband and I were like washing bags of stuff. And it was just really so really so frightening. And so there was a lot of work and we all know that and I was exhausted, but then I was so angry too. And in the middle, we started we started the project, I think in some in the summer, the one with the girls, and and then I was like wait a second, but I feel so angry. And I didn't I don't think I got to express that frustration until later. When I was like okay, I think I should make a picture about this. And, um, and so but I had to wait to be less upset, I think because in the moment, it would have been I wanted to I wanted it to be just something whimsical because I guess when I make work I also think about it Being somewhat beautiful for me like it has to it has to communicate something essential. But it also, for me, I feel like I needed to be beautiful. I mean, and whatever my concept of beauty is, is what I'm obviously going out here. And so it took me a while to mull this one over. It's like, how should I shoot this one? And I love pink. And it was springtime, when I shot that one. So, you know, then it became a no brainer, fatigued, mom, kids on their devices and father on the phone all day. So that was that. Yeah, so that was a, you know, an interesting one. And I think a lot of people related to it. It resonated with a lot of families. Yeah, so interesting. Shooting that one with everybody. They were laughing my whole family, they were like, are we really doing this? I said, Yeah, isn't this the truth, though? Then the kids looked at me. And they had a nice laugh. And my husband's like, I do not, do not circulate this. If my colleagues see this stuff. I'm like, relax. It's only the truth. You're not You're not showing anything? That's not, you know, real. Yeah, but just on on that, when you said about how you're really angry, and then you sort of waited before you did the shoot? Did you have any sort of idea in your head? How that might have looked if you had a shot at when you were angry? I think the reason, there's two reasons why I think I don't, I don't make work when I'm extremely. When I'm when I'm in that emotion. I think the one reason is that my thinking brain doesn't work quite well. It's a very basic and a very standard, like a really technical reason is that when I'm really emotional, I'm not able to focus very well, if that makes any sense. I wouldn't be able to make it fun for the family is the second reason because I think when I'm taking pictures with the kids, I need them to know that even though that this is something that is difficult, difficult emotion or a difficult message, that we're going to do it in a way that's light and acceptable for the children, because I don't want them walking away feeling that they did something that was upsetting to them. Yeah. And I'm actually overall quite conscious about that when I work with them, because I want them to have good feelings. And I'd be agreeable about the work we make together the work they make with me. Because they're old enough to have that conversation with me. You know, it's not like they're there. You know, when we started, they were I think they were seven and 10. So, so they were old enough to understand what was going on. And so it's always been important to me that they that they're okay with what I'm sorry, that's such a long winded reply to me, no, this is perfect. This is where I'm trying to go with it. I think that you don't just use your children as a prop, you don't just put them there and say, look like this, you're actually explaining to them what the message you're trying to convey so they can understand their part of what you're creating, I suppose. Yes, yes, absolutely. when they were younger, of course, and I was taking pictures of them playing on the beach or doing something like that. It was different, you know, and but I've always been quite conscious about their agency, you know, I want them to have that agency. And I think it's because when I was young, I didn't and I feel also that if I want them to be people who express themselves and ask for what they want, then they then I have to, I have to start giving them that authority in their lives. Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? Yeah. Well, this was, you know, Well, initially, this was a part of community where, you know, my daughters and I made over the pandemic, massive, it was a very big series. And then I think later, I thought about the little bits that we did talking about plastic pollution with a an eye that I did, specifically, specifically, just with the little one. And I saw I pulled it out as another set. But, um, in that we, the little one was had assignment from school, she was very interested in the pollution of our oceans. And she became very upset when she watched the video on the, you know, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Yes, yeah. And she couldn't believe it. She was she was beside herself. She is also she's between my two children. I think she's also quite, she feels a lot more she's kind of like, she's kind of, you know, how can I describe, she feels the pain of everybody that lives. And so when she read that, and she learned about all the, the sea animals than the sea life that was being harmed, she was upset. And I think it gave me an opportunity to go in there and, and talk about that a little bit more. And we talked about things like using straws. And using plastic bags, and plastic water bottles. And I said, Listen, you know, I think that we, we can agree that we should refuse the straw when you go to the restaurants and they seem to agree. Yeah. So I think I just use that as a moment for them to educate them and to, to solidify what they learned and, and specifically with a little one, she and I thought let's make pictures with it. Because that's what, that's what I do. Let's make pictures. No brainer. So So I think with the series, we were just trying to communicate how you know, this how a sea creature or a sea animal or a turtle or a you know, a pelican might feel or a seagull might feel when they ingest plastic or and how enlightening the suffocation of the planet to the suffocation of this little girl, my daughter who's in who's in the series. So kind of drawing attention to that subject. And having my daughter who is seven to present the subject to kind of to convey the the the need for people to consider this being you know, a significant issue that our world faces today. Yeah yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. It's absolutely that because I'm I mean, I'm you know, in my case, I don't you know, might be different for but I think mostly it is. It was like that. My mother didn't we didn't ever talk about it. My mother never talked to me about how it was. And I remember I had my my first my daughter and I came back home. Obviously I thought now I know how to feed my child. Because the nurse showed me how to do this. I can do this. And I came home and that night I remember I was sitting on the edge of the bed Then I was sobbing because I had no idea how to breastfeed my child. And I was like, Oh, I have no milk, I have no milk. And I remember sobbing, because I thought, I'm not lactating. And, she looked at me, she says, You have, she just comforted me, and she just sent me back home, give me a big hug and said, you fine, everything's fine. Go back home. But I guess what I was trying to say was that that was the first time I ever felt guilt. I was like, I'm a horrible mother. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to have milk, which is like, so stupid. Why would I know how to have milk? Why would I? Why would I know this stuff? Like, yeah, oh, no, no, I'm supposed to know it. Because like, this is natural. No, it's not. I don't, you know, so I. Yeah, I think that I'm not even. .. In fact, I'm gonna say this. I don't, I don't think that I ever thought about who I was before I realized didn't know who I was. You know, I mean, it was. And I think the loss happened over a period of time. I remember I quit work when the older daughter was born when our oldest daughter was born. Because I didn't have adequate maternity leave. And I couldn't imagine leaving her in like 40 days and going back to work. So my husband could support us. And I said, Okay, you know, I'm just going to this was in Dubai, and I said, Okay, I'm just gonna stay home. And I was really excited to be a mother, actually, I was really looking forward to it. I always wanted to be a mom. And so this was very exciting time for me. But, you know, over a period of time into the birth of the second girl, I, I started realizing how much I was losing control over elements of my life. Does that make any sense? But my, my little girl was about one and a half, I think it was 2014 some time. And I started to realize that I was so fragmented. I didn't know who I was. Like, who am I, I was always so invested in everyone else's life. And I think we were out to a friend's house. And we were, you know, talking and my friends and my husband, they were engaged in this very riveting conversation about something current, which I was not current with. And I was trying to follow through desperately, the conversation and my kids came over. And as always, you know how they come to you when they my older daughter, and she started, you know, I need to go to the bathroom, I need to go to the bathroom. And so I took her. And when I came back, I was totally lost. And I realized that, in that one moment, it hit me when I realized and probably, you know, you'd wonder why. But I think I'd been feeling it for a while feeling like, I don't fit in feeling like I don't understand what's going on. And I think in that one moment, I was like, Alright, that's it. I need to do something about this. Yeah, I can't, I can't live like a normal like, I don't who am I? I need to find myself again. I think that's what happened. Yeah. And you weren't going to perhaps let the fact that you were a Mum, stop you from that, like in that that actual physical act of your child needing you and removing you from a conversation was sort of an analogy of you've been removed from the world because you are a mother. And if I don't put words in your mouth, but that's how I guess I'm hearing. It's like, that's a really powerful thing to connect and go. Ah, not not liking this. This is going to change. Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. I think you phrase that very well. And I think I think what happened was that it was a crisis. Really, when I think back at that time, I didn't think I really had to. Even now, like every day that passes, I, I see it better. I yeah, I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost, and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and and saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing that It was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that. And, and, and I knew, and I knew that it was because I, since I was about 16, I had been working part time. And I think that being dependent, and being and being on, and, you know, kind of losing myself was very hard for me to. And yeah, so I decided that I'm going to take pictures for a living, but I had to wait a bit, I had to wait for the little one to, you know, get to a point where I can kind of pull myself out, it takes time, once you decide, but then by the time you get to it, you know, that you made that decision. And that's, that's the most important step, I think. Because without that, you nothing else come. So, you know, you've got an in your head that this is where I'm going to be this is what's going to happen, and you can make it happen slowly, you know, over a period of time. And, you know, physical barriers, you know, you still have to actually, you know, you've got a child here, you you can't just go off if you sort yourself out while I go do this, you know, physically, you know, limitations that life gives you, but you made it happen. You did it. And that's just tremendous. Just love that. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's, I think I think eventually in life, as you said, it's just essential that we all try, you know, trying is all that is needed. And I think no matter how hard it is to balance your professional life or whatever, your whatever, something for yourself with being a mother, because that's not just who we are. We're so much more than that. And I think that it's very important, even if we have to, even if it takes time, like you said, no matter how long it takes, and we may not get there. But I think as I'm saying this, you know, it might sound crazy, and I mean it get there like, but I think the trying is what is most essential. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah that's. I find it so fascinating that there can be such liberated women that have been raised by women that maybe weren't like that. It's like, you must have got a sense of it from something, you know what I mean? Like, where did that come from? And yeah, yeah, and I just find it. So think that it's very interesting. And I think and I think about that, because I kind of all my role models were women who, who have, you know, mothered in a patriarchal world. And I also mother like that for for many years. I guess the time that I realized I needed to make a change, quite frankly, was when I when I got introduced to I don't know if you know about her birth name is Andrea O'Reilly. She's, she's written. She teaches motherhood studies. In Canada in I think it's York University. Don't quote me on it. But um, she she's written a book about theory and practice of Metro centric feminism. And probably taking this totally off tangent. Oh, no, but I guess what I was trying to say was that I think that when, you know, when I was making work about mothering and motherhood, I became introduced, I got introduced to a whole bunch of, of my other artists who, you know, who I met, just because I, you know, spoke at a conference, I think in 2021. Oh, yeah. Last year. Yeah. And and I gradually learned about these. I mean, I was making look about put the mother first you know, like, let's talk about what it really looks like without knowing that. There are so many people out there who do the same thing. Of course, you there are others. photographers as well, who've done it, who you know whose work I was aware of. But that is a movement now and that more and more we're talking about this, and how important this identity is, and how important it is to kind of live the life that you want your children to have. And I think reading reading the books that have read now, and reading the, you know, opinions of, I think there have been some psychologists who have talked about this, that you have to model the behavior that you expect, and it's not enough to, like I was telling my kids all the time, should never compromise, you should never do this, you know, but it's all just talk unless you actually live it. So I think then it became really important for me to have a life and a career and pursue something that I love to do, notwithstanding my circumstances, and, you know, trying really hard to make way for myself and speak my mind. And yeah, so I guess that's how, I guess we all we all. And also, I think it's when I stepped away from where I was the environment in which I was, which was, you know, India, or, you know, the family that I was surrounded by, that I could actually see it objectively from a distance. And I think that kind of then helps, then it helped me kind of put things into perspective being the distance helped. And yeah, yeah, that from a different angle from a long way away, yes yeah. Alison : I had a sort of similar situation to some degree, when, when my first son was born, and I'd worked full time since I was, I left school, and I actually got a job before I left school. So I basically just went into work, and I'd worked full time till I was 20. He's 29 When I had my first child, so that's a long time. And I was very independent, I was raised. You know, I had a lot of strong, independent women around me that always said, make sure you have your own money, you know, this, that and the other. Even my husband and I, to this day, we still do our own washing, you know, we don't I don't iron his clothes, because I don't know how to because he can do it better than me. You know, we're very, we've got a weird setup, but, but when I actually had my child, and I was sitting at home on the floor one day playing with him. And I had this realization that this is my life now. Like, there is nothing else for me to go and do. I was thinking I've got to what do I need to do? I had this sense in me like, What have I got to do? There was like, you don't have to do this is you now this is this is your life. Now I just sort of sat there and just thought, Oh, God, like I had this. It just made me feel so almost defeated. Like, I'm not independent anymore. You know, I've got this little person to look after who I loved, you know, obviously, but I just thought, oh, wow, this is me now. And I felt really defeated. It was just a really feeling like, Yeah, this is you now like, yeah, and that's horrible to say it out loud. But yeah. And so then I had to make myself find things that would be a part of my life now that would make me feel uplifted and give me the feelings that I had, you know, being an independent woman and going to work. How else could I get those feelings that I wanted to feel? And like and same thing over time? You know, over time? Shweta: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to talk about that. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that. And I don't think that it's horrible at all. Like I just I feel like it's so real. Because you're someone right and then overnight, you're not that person anymore. Yeah, it's pretty. It's huge. And it isn't like it's just so why doesn't anybody talk like, why don't we talk about this? It's such a significant thing the mental Oh, no transition. It's so significant. And there's no conversation about it. And I remember like talking to my mom, like, why wouldn't you ever tell me? And she said, Well, there's no, there was nothing to tell you. I'm like 50% of the population go through it. She looked at me. I said, that does not make it any less significant. Hmm. You know, that's the thing that I don't I'm like, Just because people just add weight that 50% is women. If it was men. My elbow hurts. I'm like, just you know. I thought kids out, buddy. You don't get to talk about your elbow. Yeah. Yeah. Like CSC is like, if those 50% were men, it would be a diff. This would be a different. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we would be having like, classes for these things. Like, many are about to pop babies out. Come and roll yourself. Yeah. You. This is how you're going to feel lessons. Yes, yeah. Oh, boy. Oh, you're spot on that you spot on? And I think, yeah, like, you're a little bit crazy there. Oh, no, oh, my god, grab this opportunity to make fun do it. You know, and it just sounds like I'm not a man hater. I love him. You know, it's, it's just that it's just that I feel that it's high time we just, we were, you know, talking about these things and not, and moms and I want to mention this, this. I was reading a book, I think it's this Andrea Riley's book where she takes a little excerpt from Susan Maushart. yeah, who talks about the mask of motherhood, basically, Mask of Motherhood. And it's basically is not just a mask, it's not just a facade of what, you know, a facade that which we hide behind, you know, telling ourselves that everything is perfect, and everything is beautiful. And not only are people around us responsible for that, but it's also us that we have to take ownership for, for putting on that mask for letting it propagate. So I think that it's essential for us to be more honest about how we feel and, and talk about it. And, and it's okay, because we love our kids. You know, it's, we love them. We I mean, if if, if there was a bison coming at us, we would we would be the ones under the bus, not the kids like we would give our lives for our kids. But the ambivalence, you know, there is ambivalence, and it's important to talk about that. And it's human to talk about that. Yeah, yeah. I think the way I sort of make sense of it, like you were saying before, it's meant to come naturally, you know, you're meant to know how to breastfeed you meant to know how to feel you're meant to know what to do. And because I think there's that, that what's the word, expectation that you're meant to know what to do? So everybody just goes up? She's got a baby now, she'll be fine. Because she isn't, she'll know what to do. You know, it's just, that's what I think sets everything up for, for all this, these feelings. Because then when we don't know what to do, you know, we get that guilt we get, we feel like we failed. Alison: You know, I felt like, like I had trouble breastfeeding my first child. Turns out, it's because he was so sleepy. He just wouldn't wake up to be fed. He was ridiculous. And then all of a sudden that six weeks he woke up and we were fine. But in that time, when it was a struggle, I felt like an absolute failure because like, I'm the Mum, I'm the one who's meant to feed this child. And why isn't it happening? It must be my fault. You know? It couldn't be anybody else's fault. It was my fault. You know, this is what we put on ourselves because we're conditioned to think that we were meant to know what to do and it's all natural and normal. And, you know, we've got to Change You're listening to the art of being a mum with my mom, Alison Newman Shweta: I don't know if I'm raising you up to this, but I thought this was a great time to talk about mom guilt. Oh, yes. I just, you know, and I could write a book on this. Because also, like, it's such an awful emotion guilt in itself is such an awful emotion. And, and I'm saying this, you know, off the heels of what you just said, guilt is a socially enforced emotion. And it's, we're raised to experience guilt as a marker that will guide us towards more socially acceptable behaviors. Yeah, all humans feel it. But but because those who mother feel responsible for a huge variety of things. Right, it opens up more avenues for us to experience guilt in our lives as carers. Yeah, absolutely. It's like just so much more that we do and taking care of other people's lives. And, but, but the truth is that the practice of of mothering responds to circumstances in which we raise our children. You know, like, if you're a mother in India, you're different than a mother in the US. Or if you're a mother in the UK, you might be different than somebody who's raising their children in a tribe in Africa, like, or Japan like, I think that motherhood is a socially constructed. Institution. It's a patriarch, I mean, I think it's Adrienne Rich, who, who distinguishes the institution of motherhood, from the practice of mothering. And the fact that mothering is in response to circumstance and to the needs of the place where you're raising your child. And it is, and the institution of motherhood is influenced by the expectations loaded onto us by society, by cultural representations of what mothers should look like, like, oh, you know, you should know how to breastfeed really? No, I don't. Or you know, like, things like that, and, or, like, you know, mothers are supposed to, I don't know, making this up, stay home with the kids not go to work. And but in places where neoliberalism is all the rage, mothers are supposed to go to work and take care of their kids and take care of their husbands and have beautiful, shiny homes, and do all of it all, like, How can you even possibly do it all and feel like and feel like a success? Like something's got to give, you know, like, you're going to understand the problem with this is that no matter how you look at it, because of all of these expectations that we're trying to live up to, we will never feel like successes. You know, it's like we're in a sense, we're set up to fail. Yes, we think, yeah, no, I agree with that. It's interesting. You're talking about? It just reminded me of it. I had a guest on probably, I think it was episode three or four. Her name is Rachel power. And she's written. You know her! I loved that. It did. Oh, yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah. I love that one. Yeah. And she was her book, The divided heart art and motherhood for anyone that's interested. It really goes deep into this. And she the way she described the, you know, the feminists have had sort of led the way for us and told us that we could have it all we could have a job, we could do this, we could do that. Yeah. But then the moment you become a mother, you know, what happens that all of it just disappears. And then you're left questioning yourself, like, I thought I could, I thought I could do this, but now society is going actually no, you can't like, you know, it's really challenging to lose, we lose all the gains of feminism when we become mothers. And, and, and, you know, Andrea O'Rilley talks about this in her book, and she talks about how mothers need their own feminism. We need our own because we have different needs. You know, yeah, women have mothers and mothers have their needs and mothers and mothers including anyone, em slash mothers, mothers, you know, like anybody mother and other who's taking care of, you know, because now there's different ways of being of being a mother and doing the job of mothering. Yeah, but I think, you know, absolutely. Spot on there. You know, that there is no gain when it comes to us and we need we need a feminism of our own innocence. Hmm. So Andrea O'Reilly I'm going to look her up because she sounds like someone that I want to talk to. Goddess. Goddess in the flesh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think oh my god, it would be quite smashing. If you'd If you can, if you can have her because I mean, I, I just I think there's so much of what I read that opened me up when I read her books. And I think it's it's what I've drawn from what I've drawn from it really is that we have to really be open to talking about this and asking for what we need. And I don't know how far you can go to exert political influence, because at the moment, you know, as far as where I live in America in in, you know, the US, we don't even have universal maternity leave. It's it's absolutely bizarre to me that look, this country does not have. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, I mean, I remember being here and coming here and thinking, I really honestly think if I was somewhere else, my experience would have been different. And what I realized over here was that women mothers were doing so much, so much, so much. And overwhelmed. And the ones who were home with the kids like me, when I was a stay at home mother for a very long time, I still think I am one, I don't think that's ever going to, you know, my kids are my central focus. But, uh, you know, I, you know, when I went, and those women were so isolated. And yes, you might come out and meet other moms in your coffee chat groups and things like that. But it's, there was no real, like exchange of conversation where you could say that, what do we really need? And how can we get there? I think one cannot really get too far. If, you know, the, you know, you don't have much support. Apparently, we have no political consequence. You know, so yeah. Alison: And honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna sound like I'm bagging America, do it. I don't know, Australia is an amazing place. When I compare it to other places in the world, you know, we have universal health care. We have paid maternity leave system, we've got paid paternity leave system. And then you think America is supposed to be the best place in the world, the greatest country on Earth, and you think you can't even go to the hospital and get fixed up without paying a bill of 20 $30,000? And I just don't understand, I just think how can you not be up with the times of the world of what people deserve and expect and worthy of, you know, like, how hard is it? You know, we we've got this Medicare system over here where everybody, you know, that earns over a certain amount of money, a portion of their tax goes to Medicare. And it's simple. I mean, and it's not simple, but you know what I mean, it sounds very simple and traightforward. And I know this, there's still issues with our health care system, nothing's perfect, and nothing can ever be perfect. There's always things that can be improved. But I think, God, the amount of times I've taken my children to the hospital in the middle of the night, because they've had a bit of a croupy cough, or they're in pain, and I'm not sure why. If I had a barrier of money, in a way, I would never have done that stuff. And you just think, How can a society a modern society functioning that way? Where money Is the the thing that stops you from taking care of yourself? Shweta: Yes, I think it's definitely something of concern. And of course, they're riding on the backs of so many women who, who, who basically raised the next generation without any support, in a sense. And it's essential, what recently what is bugging me is that we do not have good mental health insurance. And there's an there's, there's a different pandemic now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's really upsetting that I go to the doctor's like, oh, I need a therapist. There isn't any good therapist that your insurance covers. I don't first of all, I don't even know, good, bad. But I just feel like if I start the process with someone, I should trust that person. And I'm not going to go, oh, after three sessions, you're no good. I'm gonna go. Like it's very hard. I think for people who like for someone who like when I go into depression, or when I have anxiety I have, I've always managed anxiety for many years. And for me to actually pick up the phone and say, I'm not going to call a therapist and make an appointment takes a lot of effort. And when you don't have faith in the system, it just gets so much harder. And then I'm sorry But he who can probably even afford to pay? You know, a few, a few sessions, and I think about all of the millions of people who can't. And it's when healthcare becomes a thing of privilege, it's frightening. Yeah, it is, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, it is. I think it's quite, it's quite saddening, and I think the fact that even if there have been many ways to have physical health care, I think, I think what's really very important is men's mental health care. And which I think we're really far behind on. It's frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Look, honestly from observing from across the world. It's just it makes no sense. It really makes no sense. I think if you are going to be a capitalist, sorry, sorry. No, go on. Go on. I was just going to continue going. Oh, it makes no sense. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I can totally understand how it looks from far away. And I mean, I honestly, like I just feel like because we are such a capitalist country, like, the most. Something has to suffer.We're about making money. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah. matriarchal systems of business, where you're, you're basically respected for how much? How much money can you make. And so therefore, in a place like this, where you're somebody who's paying attention, just raising your children, and raising them to be good human beings, and with values and, and all of this, none of that has value? Yeah. You tell the mother that she's noble, yet, you know, you create a circumstance in which she cannot feel fulfilled, because what you really value is money, and money making. Yes. So I think that that's very demoralizing for so many people who, who care for other lives and compromise on, you know, livelihoods. Absolutely. And then you add to that the fact that there's so many makers, you know, that make art or, you know, music or any sort of thing, and because they're not making a living from it, then that is devalued, as well, because you're not making money. So it's less worth than someone who is making money from it. You know, that's a house, I think it's really hard to balance a Korean art and be somebody who's, who's caring to occur. Because just by the nature of art itself, right. Like, it's, it's difficult to know what you're doing and how it's going to be appreciated. And when you're making work, it's so personal, sometimes the work you make, and, and soI think that circumstances, make it so difficult for artists, mothers, and you know, so we need each other basically, you know, we need to lift each other up. And I think that's, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. We've got to feel like, we've got to sort of the change has to come with from within first, I think, because the outside have their own views, and they're the ones continuing to hold these views. But then if Yeah, all the mothers say No, that's wrong. And everyone, you know, revolts against that, if for one have a better word. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know why was saying that, you know, like, you know, that the fact that we actually turn a blind eye to others and things like that, and I remember, it's like, you can obviously see them at drop off cant you see their faces? You know, I mean, sorry, I don't know where that came from. No, but I was just thinking about that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's quite obvious that they need that, you know, and I and I, and I feel sometimes like we live such isolated lives. And the whole idea of the nuclear family and living in you know, a capitalist country and a nuclear family is the fact that you're isolated in your experiences. And, you know, and so, I think that, that just aggravates an already difficult situation. Because I was like, always imagine and fantasize, oh, my gosh, if my mother lived across the door from me, how wonderful would that be? Yeah, I can't handle this get any more "throw". Catch mom catch!! Oh, I love that. But that's true, though, isn't it? It's like in years gone by, you know, this the saying of, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. That was true. That was actually what would happen. You'd have people all around you all the time. And it's like we're forcing people apart seems to be no way the world is really a lot and I I'm glad we're talking about it. It's you know, yeah. He said what's the first steps to making changes? You know, yes, in deciding Think it was to 2021, there was a conference that was held by the University of Bolton and in the UK. nd we talked and the conference was about the idea of the missing mother. That's what the conference title was. And how the mother has been missing in the representation of the representation of the mother has been missing in various disciplines and in art in particular. And the invitation was for, you know, academics and artists, to researchers to come and talk about to talk about the subject and share their work. And yeah, I so I, you know, talked about my experience and how, how, basically, our helped me pivot, in a sense, that's what I used it for. It was my lifeline, to be quite honest. Yeah. And, and it brought me back to life. And, yeah, so yeah, I, I also present people's I talk about, I talk about my experience, I can, you know, that was one conference, I talked. And just quite recently, there was a conference that was held by the Museum of motherhood in Florida. And I also presented a paper and my work at that conference. And basically, the idea is really to, you know, to talk about my experience to meet other, you know, individuals who, you know, have research to share, constantly learning about wonderful issues related to the lives of mothers and mothering and, and, you know, because the representations come from various fields, it's always enriching to learn about, and hear from such people. And I think, because it was always important for me to, I had decided I'm going to talk about this. Because it was important to me, because I felt that I didn't find many people that would talk to me, and how I felt. So I think I, for me, it's not just enough to make, you know, work like photographs and, you know, stage photographs. I also like to present and talk and listen to other people who are doing research in these areas, huh? Oh, good on you. That's great. I'm gonna have to look some of these things up. You've given me so many things. I'm happy to share. Yeah, I'm gonna share some I can share some links with you and right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you, that would be wonderful. I was, I was thinking about this when we talking about the guilt thing. And I thought that a lot of a lot of mothers who end up working, while they're kids a little will will say to me, you know, I, I'm a better mother when I go to work. And I always used to wonder about that. And I still do, and I just feel that I always, you know, you know, consider that you're a better mother if you go to work, but then why do we Why do we always have to make it about the kids? You know, why? Why not for you? Like, I think that because society has so much pressure on us for putting the kids first, you know, so everything that we do is for the kids, but I actually hope that we can come to a point where we can say I go to work or I do this because it makes me happy. You know, because I need it for myself. Exactly. And not and not say because, you know, I'm not saying that's the wrong thing to feel. I'm just I'm just hoping that we could claim we can claim that thing that we do for ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting perspective, isn't it? It's like, we have to be feel good for somebody else, you know, not just for ourselves, if that makes sense, right? Yeah. I yeah, I think that really it is what it is, is that I think, once your mother that that's the only identity that you perhaps feel very strongly about, but we're more than mothers and wives and, or partners and, and daughters, where we, you know, like, individuals? Yeah, no, I haven't heard any dads say that. I'm a better dad when I go to work. LOL Now that the girls are older, I have more time to spend on my practice. But when they were younger, and until almost a year ago, I was doing a lot of housework and Mother work. You know, and I think during the pandemic, I developed a practice to journal every day, and make, you know, Things To Do list because without that, I'm just like, headless chicken all over the place. Um, so, you know, I make a list, and I and I, and the list has a lot of chores on it, it has, you know, freelance work stuff that I have to do on it, it has, you know, make creative, make room for admin work on it, you know, so it's a, it's an extensive list, but everyday doesn't have too much on it. Because I've realized that there's only so much time you have, right, and, but I follow the list, and I, and I put tick marks on the list, like a little child's like, yes, yes. Yes. That's right. Like, it's so satisfying, tick things off. And, and, you know, and then of course, I also write whatever I didn't write down on the list, also, that I ended up doing. Because sometimes once you feel like, oh my gosh, where did my day go? I just did like two out of five of my list. But what was I doing? So I think that earlier, I would feel defeated. But now I just write it all down. So, you know, I end up with some sense of accomplishment, like, alright, I was doing this. And I stopped being hard on myself, really, I think I, I have, you know, take it with a little grain of salt. Okay, I didn't get to doing this today. So I do tomorrow, you know, so I, I think that you also have to build in a little humor in your life. You know, you're like, Okay, I got rejected by this residency. Alright, on to the next one. And I just got, you know, got a rejection letter for an exhibition. And I was really bummed for about, like, I don't know, 16 hours. And then, of course, I have such a wonderful support group. And I reached out to my mentor, and, and I reached out to another mom, and she's like, you know, what, sometimes you just need people to remind you of the stuff that you already know. So it's so important to have like people in your life who will, you know, lift you up? And you know, just give you that little bit of a lift when you need it. Yeah, like, this one's not going. So let's go on to the next one now. So yeah, yeah. And I think the important thing that I, that I didn't do before that I do now is that I asked for what I need from my family and my kids. You know, like, it's not all about them. Obviously, but you know, you're Yes, yes, you're setting them up for failure. I think if you just, you know, I'm the same if I'm in here, editing or recording or something, and someone will come in and say, Mom, can you do this? I'm like, actually, I can't do it right now. But same thing, you know, give me five or 10 minutes, and then I'll do it. You know, and it's like, yeah, that's reasonable. You know, that's a reasonable expectation for your child to to understand that. That is actually okay. You know? Yes, absolutely. You know, I think that in the beginning, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do that at all. And I had, right, I was like, I and I, and I still know a few mothers who, who live like that. And, and, you know, it's hard, because then you it's said, what about me? Exactly. And I think that that question is very important. You know, what about me? What about what I want? And I think that you definitely cannot hope to achieve anything for yourself, if you don't set the boundaries. So that I think that's pretty. And it's good for them. I think that the children also will learn when they if they choose to become mothers, that, that it's okay to do that. Yeah, I remember when I, when I was little, my mother would, my mother would be like, I'm drinking tea right now come back to me later, you know, so she was definitely not there. Because, you know, she also worked and, you know, she was not there for me all the time. But she was lovely mother, and she still is. And I think that. But you know, I kind of got into the trap of saying, oh, whatever you want, guys, whatever you want. But I think the significance. Yeah, so just simple things, writing everything down. I journal every day. And I make lists. And I asked for what I want. And I also think that everybody's experience is different of mothering. And what they need is different. So I think the real need is to sit with oneself and ask oneself, what do I need? What do I really need? And go for it? You know, like, you matter? I think that you matter, and you're important. And you know, I'm just asking for what you need is important, because because a lot of times we don't ask because we're afraid of we're afraid of what might happen. You know, what the answer might be, but I think that it's we don't mothers don't really ask the things we just give and I think that's, it has to you, we have to ask for what we want. Yeah, I agree. I think I think we're also afraid of inconveniencing other people, because the mums job is supposed to be making everybody happy and making everything good and right for everyone. But then if we sort of upset the applecart so hang on a second. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot to be said. Yeah. And I think, and I think the other thing is that there's no straight path to this. And we all have to pivot. I think because of what we do, and the nature of what we do is, and every moment presents itself differently, sometimes you don't know, like, suddenly my kid is going to fall from the swings, and I have to rush like, this has happened right? With you, too, I'm sure where you have to rush your kids to the doctor, like drop everything and go. And usually it's me because my husband has a corporate job, and I'm closer to the kids locationally You know, school is closer to, to our house than it has to his office besides, you know, he's in calls and, and, you know, like, it's my primary responsibility. So I have to drop everything and go. But, you know, in the beginning, I would be like, quite, you know, helicopter in a sense, I would be hovering around them making sure like going overextending myself and, and I still do those things, but I don't, but I but I have, you know, everything what i've what I figured is that everything will be all right. You know, eventually, you know, like, we, you know, like, we don't have to lose sleep over every second of the kid's life, like, you know, it will be alright, and I think that I have to be ready to pivot and to take everything, you know, lightly laugh off some serious things in life. And the kids also learned to do that with me. So now, they also learn to pivot so I think it's a it's a work in progress. You know, it's still hard but we make it work, and I'm good on you know, yeah. So if you've got anything you're working on anything coming up that you want to share with the listeners to sort of look out for any, any sort of projects or work? well, you know, these days I'm I'm working on a new series, I haven't started posting that on Instagram yet, I've suddenly feeling quite protective of the work that I'm making, you know, because everything is just so personal. And it comes from a place of deep feeling. And I you know, that with this particular work that I'm making with the girls. They'll walk up to me, and they'll be like, so what are we doing today? It's funny, they'll come to me. And you know, the way I've trained them, so Well, I feel like they'll come to me and say, so what are we shooting today? Because when I set the lights up and things, and then I'll say, and I'll tell them, then they say, then the next question is, so what is that supposed to mean? Like, do you really have to know every time? But that is absolutely I love it. It's amazing. And sometimes I'm like, can we just get through it? And then I'll tell you, No, Mama, how about you tell it tell us first? And then and then well, I'm like, Okay, fine. Stop being lazy. And like, so I tell them? And then and then my next question always is, are you okay doing this? And then they'll say yes. Or they say no. But usually they'll say yes. Because I'm, you know, I'm quite clever in the sense that I don't, I don't pursue subjects that I know will put them in a spot, you know, because I don't want because they will they. I revere my kids. I mean, this might sound crazy, but I have this deep reverence for them. It's not just love, I, I really respect and look up to them for so many things. Like, they're just so wonderful. And they're so innocent, and they're just so loving and so inclusive. And so they're there, you know, when they're agreeable to do something, and when, when they're not, they will still look at me and think, Is mom gonna get hurt? Because I say no. So sometimes, they will say yes, and I don't want that. Because I don't want that. I don't want them doing that. So I'd be like, Are you sure? Anyway, so So these days, I'm making something, and I'm, they both are growing older, and my older daughter has started her periods, and the little one, you know, she, she's now nine. And she suddenly changed over the past year or so. And, you know, like, how we talk about kids having coming to the age of reason, you know, I was the kind of, I think it's kind of between seven and nine years old. And she, she knows her place in the world, and she knows, you know, if and when, you know, consequences, and of actions, and good and bad, and morality, and she's quite in that space right now, where she's thinking about all these things, and she's no longer a child. And, and I can see that they're becoming more independent. And I've become obsessed with, with time, I feel I can feel my biological clock. And I'm so concerned with time, and it's impermanence, and how my daughters have my time in their hands, you know, and the fragility of this moment, and how little we think of now, you know, like this moment. And I become so conscious that they're letting go of me in so many ways. And so, so I'm thinking, I, I want to let go, but I also want to hold on to them. And, you know, I'm aging, and they're blossoming. So these things are happening all at once, and I'm thinking of all these things, and you know, they're maturing, I'm happy, but I'm also I'm also Chad melancholic, you know, at the loss of their childhood. And I'm relieved that I have more time, but I'm wistful for the tender moments that I've spent with them when they were little. So there's this we're in this liminal space, and I'm curious about it. And that's what I'm hoping to explore. Hmm, yeah. Theres this song. One of my guests, wrote. Jen Lush she was in one of the episodes last year and she wrote this song and it started off with I want to put you in glass. And that was the way she wanted to stop her children from growing and it was just this. When I when I heard that I was like, oh, you know all the pulls on the heartstrings like oh my gosh, my babies are growing up, you know, and it's just you just want to stop like every, like, every time you look at them. They're growing. They're getting older, every moment that goes past they're getting older and you just think no, slow down. No, no, it's Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is quite a difficult. Every, every every time as the ages is presents something different to us. And a different volley of emotions again, you know, like, I feel like it never ends. It's like, I need to breathe. Like, wait a second. Can I ever be happy? Like my kids are not finally growing up. I don't have to clean their bums. I don't have to stand in attendance. I don't have to say, now write this down. And like I'm like, oh my god, can I just do that again? Lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing how that presents itself. That will be very exciting to see. Oh, yeah, I love that. Let's listen this has been a delightful discussion. I've it's been beautiful. Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me. It really is a pleasure to have you. This episode contains discussion around anxiety and depression, and was recorded prior to the United States Supreme Court's overturning of Roe versus Wade. Music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age trio, LM J, which features myself my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and is used with permission. I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Alison. Yeah, it's lovely to meet you. Likewise, you at the moment you. You're in New York City. Is that right? Yes. Yes. I live in I live in Manhattan. Wow. So like right in the thick of it? Yes. Yes, it can get busy here. So you're a photographer, but not the sort of necessarily the style of photography that most people would think of when they think of a photographer. So can you share with us what your sort of style is and and perhaps why you do do things the way you do? So well, I when I started taking pictures, it was before the children were born. And I remember I bought my first camera in actual camera in Dubai in 2008. And at that time, I worked for love. Thanks. And the other one I want to ask that is, you did a plastic series? I'm glad you brought up about that, what you're just saying about the identity, because that's something I really love to explore with moms on this show is how, how violently your life changes and how you see yourself changes. You know, and that analogy you said, Have you felt like you've been hit by a truck. You know, that's literally what it is, isn't it? If you just Yes, you just get belted. I'm having tea right now, give me 10 minutes, come back to me in 10 minutes. Because, you know, they see us and they just come running into the room is like, I need this right now. And I look at them, and I'll say, you need to give me 10 minutes, and I will come to you. Or, you know, whatever you need to do you need me to do per posted on my computer. So they write what they need. And they stick it on my screen at the bottom of my on the bottom of my computer screen. And so that's like a reminder for me. Alright, so when I get done with my task, then I do what they need me to do. So I think that I've built up a system where the kids also know now that they just can't walk into the room and declare, I need grilled cheese right now. I'm like, sorry, you're not gonna get it. You need to wait. Yeah, you're just asking for things. Yeah, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting your boundaries with your children. I think throughout my work in childcare, I think parents have this idea that they have to be at the beck and call of their children. They have to keep the children happy. And you're actually an you know, you've you've you've got to set them up for for the real world to like, you know, when they get out in the world. The world isn't gonna stop for them when they want something, you know, I think it's actually responsible of a parent to SET set boundaries and expectations around where children fit into the world and not in a kind way. Wipe your bums. But can you hold my hand? Exactly. Yeah, it's just like, it's it's it's a ride. We're on a roller coaster here. I guess. Yeah. I'm you know, it's just something all of us. I think as you know, like mothers, we go through this and it's, it would be interesting to see what response I get once I put the work out there. But right now I'm, I'm just quietly making it. It's been fun. Yes, it has. Thank you. You have something good to say, you know, one with and oh, so nice to talk to you. My lovely. I've just had such a lovely chat. I get so much out of everyone that I speak to I take different things from it's really it's such a wonderful thing, personally, that I love to do. I just love to talk to people and, you know, challenge ideas. And yeah, why? Why did we do this and all this. I just love it. So yeah, thank you for indulging. What you do is wonderful. I think I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And so I'm so I'm so happy to be here and talk to you. Thank you so much for forgiving me for giving me your time. Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 Hello! I'm Chelsea McCrae (she/her), a mother, teacher, and, more recently, the founder, producer, and host of my podcast, Definitely Baby. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a deep love for podcasts. However, it was only after becoming a mother that I felt compelled to start my own. During my pregnancy, I found solace in listening to birth stories, and after giving birth, I longed to hear from other parents about their postpartum experiences. As the first among my friends to have a baby, I often felt isolated in those early days of parenthood. Around 3-4 months after giving birth, I experienced a surge of creative energy, leading to the idea of writing a children's book with my best friend and creating this podcast. However, I soon found myself grappling with my anxiety, and parenting became all-consuming for a while. Balancing this with running our own English tuition business, my partner and I resumed classes when our daughter turned 4 months old. Creating the book never took off, but the idea for the podcast stuck. But it took until her first birthday for me to fully dive into recording episodes, and it was another 3-4 months before the pod was launched. Despite having a minor in journalism from my undergraduate studies at Monash University, I quickly realised that I was ill-prepared to produce a podcast as a one-woman show. It has been a tremendous learning experience, but I am grateful for the supportive community it has created and the connections I have made with fellow parents. I finally feel like I'm finding my rhythm with it now. My family consists of myself, my partner Hagan (he/him), and our daughter, Hazel, who is currently 20 months old. Additionally, I am currently 14 weeks pregnant with our second baby, who is expected to join us in late December or early January. Starting a podcast has been an incredible journey, albeit one that has made my weeks incredibly busy. As fellow podcasters can attest, podcasting is a labour of love that offers minimal financial incentives. It often takes years, especially for those without a preexisting social media following, to monetize their podcasts. When I first embarked on this venture, I naively believed that growing a listenership organically would be easier and that my podcast would gain traction more rapidly. Currently, I follow a scheduling pattern where I book 2-3 interviews for a few weeks, followed by a few weeks without interviews. This approach allows me to dedicate my podcasting time to editing the recorded episodes. With about 3-4 days already occupied by work for our tuition business, my weeks are already quite busy, and I have to find a way to fit podcasting into my schedule. Hazel starting daycare recently has provided me with some much-needed ease and flexibility, and I'm thrilled to see how much she enjoys it now. However, there are moments when I worry that the additional workload brought on by podcasting may take away time with Hazel. I question whether it's truly worth it. But then, a heartwarming message from a listener or a guest expressing their gratitude for their experience after recording an episode reminds me of the power of sharing our stories and reinforces the purpose behind creating this podcast. Looking back, I wish I had known the true extent of the challenges and time commitment involved, sometimes with minimal perceived gains. Also, I realise now that I should have conducted more thorough research to understand the vast number of parenting podcasts already in existence. Although I initially thought I was filling a unique niche, I have since discovered numerous podcasts with a similar format to mine. However, this realisation is not necessarily negative, as sharing our stories and shedding light on these topics is an invaluable endeavour. For anyone considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend conducting extensive research, connecting with individuals in the field (fellow podcasters are often willing to share their experiences and answer questions), and identifying a niche that aligns with your values. To be honest, I often find myself editing portions of episodes or working on social media tasks after Hazel has gone to sleep. While I'm becoming more efficient in the podcasting process over time, I recognise the need to establish new methods and dedicated time for this work. It's crucial to avoid encroaching on my already limited "me" time to ensure long-term sustainability. Also, being pregnant again requires me to be kinder to myself and seek ways to lighten my workload, particularly in the coming months as I near my due date. I've considered the possibility of hiring someone to assist me with editing, mastering episodes, or creating social media content. However, given the current circumstances, it's not feasible at the moment. Perhaps in the future, this could be a step I take to continue producing this beautiful content. I have had the opportunity to connect with numerous amazing individuals who also host podcasts. The podcasting community has been incredibly welcoming and generous in sharing advice and their personal experiences. From what I have observed, balancing parenting, work, and podcasting is a significant challenge, and it seems that everyone else faces similar struggles as well. I have drawn significant inspiration from the experiences and advice shared by fellow podcasters in my niche. Their valuable tips have guided me in implementing time-saving strategies for my podcast and have made it easier to integrate into my weekly routine. "I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel." As mentioned earlier, the podcast community has been incredibly encouraging and supportive. Even though most of my friends do not have children themselves, they have been wonderfully supportive throughout this journey. A friend who has their own podcast generously taught me everything about setting up an RSS feed, scheduling episodes, and the process of recording. My partner contributed by composing the intro tune and recording it with a producer friend. That same friend also mastered the initial 4 or 5 episodes of the podcast and provided valuable tips on sound quality. Additionally, another wonderful friend designed the original logo, and a talented photographer friend captured beautiful photos of Hazel and me, one of which I have used for the new logo. Lastly, I am grateful for all my amazing friends with kids who agreed to be part of the first 6 episodes that I recorded prior to the release, as well as all the wonderful people who continue to share their stories on the podcast. I couldn't have started the podcast or continued with it without the support network I have. It has played a crucial role in motivating me to persist and has alleviated a significant amount of pressure in the initial stages. Their encouragement and assistance have had a positive impact on my work, art, and overall creativity. Absolutely. I personally experienced the concept of "mum guilt" during my early parenting journey, especially when I didn't have close friends who were going through the same challenges. Connecting with my local New Parent's Group and spending time with other mums helped me realise that comparison, shame, and guilt were common emotions in parenting. Initially, I felt inadequate compared to others who seemed to have everything figured out regarding sleep, feeding, and routines. However, as we got to know each other on a more personal level, I discovered that we were all struggling and none of us had it all together. One triggering factor for my "mum guilt" was questions about Hazel's sleep habits, as it was a particularly challenging topic for me in the first year. Additionally, when I started working again for our own business when Hazel was four months old, I felt guilty for not being with her enough, especially during evening classes when she would cry for me as I left for work. In the early months of Hazel's life, leaving her would often trigger intense "mum guilt" for me. It was challenging for me to enjoy myself or have "me time" because I constantly worried about her crying, being hungry, or needing comfort. However, as she grew more independent after her first birthday, I started to find it easier to enjoy time away from her, making parenthood feel less overwhelming and more manageable. Regarding my creativity and starting the podcast, the transition felt relatively smooth. While it can be overwhelming at times and requires a significant amount of work, the fact that the podcast's topic is deeply rooted in parenting helps alleviate some of my "mum guilt" when I invest time into it. The only concern I have is occasionally worrying that it may take away more time from Hazel. In summary, "mum guilt" has influenced my early parenting journey, particularly when comparing myself to others. However, as I formed connections with fellow parents and gained more confidence in my abilities, the intensity of "mum guilt" diminished. Starting the podcast has provided a creative outlet that aligns with parenting, and although it can be demanding, it doesn't trigger the same level of guilt as other aspects of life. Becoming a mother brought about a significant transformation in my sense of identity. This change was amplified by the circumstances surrounding my pregnancy, as it came at a time when I was completing my Masters degree and navigating a new relationship. Motherhood has unexpectedly provided me with a sense of purpose that I didn't realise I was missing. It has anchored me and instilled a newfound confidence within me. I now embrace the role of "mother" wholeheartedly and it has become a central aspect of my identity. While I don't specifically resonate with the idea of needing to be "more than a mother," I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel. As she grows older, I want to demonstrate the value of self-care and pursuing passions, and I hope to inspire her through my actions and the values I hold. Starting this podcast has become a significant passion of mine. I firmly believe in the power of sharing stories and creating a supportive and inspiring resource for other parents and individuals alike. I take immense pride in the effort and time I invest in building this podcast and fostering a supportive community. It's something I hope my children can someday admire in me, as it aligns with the values I strive to instil in them. The work of a mother, in general, is ridiculously underrated. The paid maternity leave we are given is so minimal, and women often take off more time than their work allows due to personal preferences. Consequently, there is a significant period without contributing to superannuation. Motherhood is, by far, the hardest, most time-consuming, and relentless job I have ever experienced. As for my podcast, it does not generate any income; in fact, I spend close to $100 per month on recording and editing platforms. The prospect of monetizing it seems distant, and this long-term impact affects how I perceive its value. While it remains my passion project, it demands a substantial portion of my time, leaving me uncertain about its sustainability going forward. Nevertheless, I must continue to nurture my love for it. I firmly believe that the work of artists, especially mothers who are also artists, is highly undervalued by society. "I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations." I was raised by a single mother, and due to her status as a single parent, she had no choice but to continue working from when I was a young age. She worked as an independent midwife, which meant that there were times when I stayed with family members or friends while she attended births. As I grew older, I even had the opportunity to accompany her to some of these births. Since she was self-employed and had a flexible schedule, she was able to spend a significant amount of time with me. Additionally, we had the chance to travel and also moved towns and states a lot. These experiences of being raised by a working single mother instilled in me a strong sense of independence. I have always rejected the notion of the heteronormative, patriarchal perspective that perpetuates traditional societal norms and expectations, assuming rigid gender roles where mothers are primarily responsible for parenting, cooking, and cleaning. As a result, it is extremely important to me that my children see both Hagan and me as equals in terms of our careers and the shared responsibilities of parenting. This value holds particular significance in raising my daughters. I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations. My podcast, Definitely Baby , is available on most major platforms. Simply search 'Definitely Baby' and it should come up. You can also find me on Instagram @definitelybabypodcast, where I share beautiful photos of our weekly guests, segments from episodes, and updates about my life and the podcast. Each week, I release a main episode featuring interviews with different parents, exploring their beautiful and unique parenting journeys. I ask each guest a similar set of questions to capture a diverse range of stories on the same topics. Additionally, I occasionally release bonus episodes where I delve into interesting topics with experts. I'm also excited to introduce two new upcoming segments.The first segment features casual chats with mums and parents discussing various topics related to parenthood. Think of it as eavesdropping on a parent's group catch-up and gossip. The second segment, which I'm incredibly thrilled about, focuses on VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean). As I'm personally planning for a VBAC later this year, I'm deeply passionate about providing a resource to empower others to make informed choices. I already have lined up a few exciting experts as guests, and I believe it will be an incredibly special series. So, for anyone out there who is considering whether VBAC is the right option for them, planning for one, or knows someone who is, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming series! It's going to be a valuable resource. Contact Chelsea Links: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Instagram BACK

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Monika Crowley Irish print maker, oils artist and visual artist S2 Ep27 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Monika Crowley, a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin, Ireland, and a mother of 2. Monika spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home & the changing expectations of modern motherhood. Monika uses mundane objects in a symbolic, transformative manner whereby they become totems & talismans of the past. Monika strives to capture the essence of a mothers guilt, the feeling of being torn in two and the resentment from the other self. A decade on, her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves Mother/Artist. Her work walks a line between anger & love, between despair & joy, her explorations of the everyday are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also have a little chat about the Irish horse racing industry, of which Monika's father and her family were a significant part of. ​ **This episode contains discussions around Cancer, grief and loss of a parent** ​ View Monika's work Space Invaders , - https://www.instagram.com/p/CPlzt6pnaCX/ Motherload - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUki0cdsH9-/ Compart Mental Isation - https://monikacrowley.com/blog/ Monika's website - https://monikacrowley.com/ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/monikacrowley/ Watch a murmuration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f1r80RY Podcast - instagram / website ​ Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest on today's episode is Monica Crowley. Monica is a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin in Ireland and a mother of two. Monica has spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home and the changing expectations of modern motherhood. monarchy uses mundane objects in a symbolic transformative manner, whereby they become totems and talismans of the past. Earlier Prince had their starting point in motherhood as a rite of passage. They served as a memoir comm warning about nostalgia for retro culture at a time when mothers were not expected to juggle jobs and families. Monica strives to capture the essence of a mother's guilt, the feeling of being torn into and the resentment from the other self. A decade on her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves, mother and artist. Her work walks a line between anger and love, between despair and joy. Her explorations of the every day, are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times, finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also chat a little today about Monica's connection to the Irish racing industry. This episode contains discussion around grief and loss. Welcome along today, Monica. It's a pleasure to have you all the way from Ireland. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Alison. And thanks for doing it at my local time when the kids were in schools. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have people constantly opening the door behind me. I can understand that. Now. It's pretty good here. It's almost eight o'clock at night. So it's a pretty good time for me to so the kids will be off to bed and I won't have to worry about doors at my end too. So we're about in Ireland, are you? I'm in Dublin. So it's gray and cold out my window. We had a bit of snow last week, but it seems to be hopefully brightening up this week a little bit. Oh, I'm jealous because we don't get so where I am. It just doesn't. It's not cold enough. And I've spent well I shouldn't say I'm jealous today because I've spent the day swimming and a little bit sunburn you might be able to see. But I never had the story. Like it's something I've never, never done been in the snow so well. Unfortunately, Irish snow is generally wet and sleety every now and again. We get you know decent snow but it's not. It's not a country for skiing snowmen every now and again. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Share with us. What sort of art that you make. So I suppose up to recently have been predominantly a printmaker. I used to work in advertising and design. So I think printmaking was a really natural step for me because they kind of understood, you know, color mixing and separations and plates and that kind of technical aspect of the process. So and also because I was back then, I was renting. I didn't have studio space. So being part of a print, making studio I'm a member of the Black church print studio. And it was a good way to have a place where I could go and work and keep all my stuff and keep my art practice going. While I was still working as well, so, yeah, yeah, in the last couple of years, I've, my practice has kind of changed a bit, I suppose, because of lockdown printmaking, and go into my print studio was a lot harder the studio was closed up. So I did a lot more drawing at home and painting. So I'm, I'm actually doing a lot more oil painting at the moment. Yeah, that's cool. What do you prefer to do? Do you like your, your printmaking better? Or? I don't know, are you sometimes feel like there's this hierarchy in the art world stuff. I'm like, you sometimes hit a wall and you go, you know, am I getting that response, because I'm a printmaker, and the value of printing is perceived as lower. So I, you know, I sometimes come up against it. And I find it quite frustrating that the value of a print even though it's like quite a hard technical process to do, somebody described at one says, like, totally over complicating the process of creating art is so as I think, I suppose, as well, being able to join lock downs, and all I've been able to keep my practice going and being able to draw and paint at home, made me realize, you know, sometimes, actually, that remove of going to a print studio. While it's nice, it's nice to be able to get up in the morning and sneak an hour before the kids get up in, you know, in my home studio. So, and I guess then if, if you have an idea anytime you can sort of act on it, rather than have to keep it till you can physically get to the Fluffies. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose you keep your notebooks going, although I do find myself, you know, sneaking upstairs and saying, I just have to go do something and running upstairs and getting stuck into something. Because now I can. And, you know, I, I tell the kids, I'll be back in 10 minutes, you know, do your homework, and I come back 45 minutes later, an hour later. They're watching TV and the homework isn't done. And I'm like, oh, god, okay. It's very hard to, to thread that balance. I think one of the things people have talked about on your podcast before, and it probably comes up a lot is that struggle between when you're in the mother role, you constantly you never switch off being an artist to your head, you constantly frustrated that wanting to get back to your canvas. But, you know, when you're working at your canvas, if you can hear your children in the vicinity, your mother had never switches off either. So there's just this constant struggle for space in my brain, I feel. Yeah. So you said you had the notebooks is that something a tool that you use to sort of to help, obviously, to make notes, but to bring yourself into this space and say, right, I'm gonna make a note, then I can, you know, relax my brain, because now I've got that written down. I can move on sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're constantly getting distracted and interrupted, and then when I go to sit down or get my students like, Oh, my God, what, what was that? Like, I had this flash of genius. Now, I can't remember it. So, and if I don't have my notebook to hand, like, I will use my phone to document it, or I will use notes a lot on my phone as well. You know, I take photographs and and notate it and then I can come back to it. At least I've recorded it, but I do. I do think keep a notebook. So is it a good practice? So kind of, then you can make sense as you. You see things develop and you go oh, yeah, actually that came from way Back, when I actually have a note of that, it will could take months to act on something that they've actually written down. So that would be fascinating actually, at the end of a project, and then you've got this record, and you can browse back through and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, you can see where it started. Or you might even see something and go, Oh, I sort of, you know, I might have bypassed that, but now I'm interested in that, or, you know, it's, it'd be awesome to have that that record. I worked in advertising and design for about 20 years, when I, when I was a kid, I just always wanted to go to art college, I had, which I got to go to art college, but I had to persuade my parents that, you know, I would get a job at the end of this. So I studied, I actually went to art college studying Industrial Design, which is product design. Yeah. And, you know, until my mother Oh, I mean, practically engineering. She, if she did that, then I kind of segwayed and took a very, you know, a long route through art college. And I actually finally graduated in Visual Communications, which meant I went into graphic design and then into advertising from there. So, so that, but at the same time I was working, and it was creative. And it was a really good grounding. Like, I don't regret the course, or the, the journey my practice has taken because it's really good grounding in notebooks and research and because you always have sketchbooks on the go, and you're always sketching out ideas, and, you know, and having to articulate ideas and concepts. So that's, and I even, like, even when you're designing, I always felt there had to be thinking behind it and concept behind us. So and that's how my art practices as well. I find it very hard to do a picture that doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. It's just, it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe, I don't know, is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, it started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took and I think when I became pregnant with my first child, it just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished, where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit Battery tech Yeah? I wanted to ask you flooding leading to a beautifully there's there was a piece that I saw on your Instagram account that you called Space Invaders. And I won't try and describe it, I'll let you describe it. Can you just share the background for that and what the inspiration was for that for that pain? Yes. So that was a print actually, I have, I think I have a sketch up on my wall, you can kind of see up there behind me. So that actually was a project that stemmed from the initial lockdown, and I was doing a lot of work at home. And I eventually took over the children's playroom, which is where I am now. And it became my home studio. So all the shelves around me, which is now full of my stuff was was initially full of the kids toys, and it's where they came and played. So I set up a desk here and I started working here. But you know, the kids, there was this constant kind of battleground, I saw my desk as this battleground, like I would leave to go down and make dinner or whatever, and then come back and I would find some of the children's toys like propped up like, obviously, on my desk, either abandoned, or like deliberately put there as almost like, some kind of protest that you undertake, they claim back on their face. Yeah, exactly. It became this disputed territory where, you know, it's like, that's our room. No, it's my room now. So if it was this, so the print behind me there, it's, I think I call that one cutting ties. And it was I came back and my son's toy Hulk fist was balancing on top of my scissors on my desk. And I was like, on it, there's just something so aggressive, but yet so playful about it, you know, and that was you know, and I have another one that I call mother's bottle and it was my child my daughter's doll naked, because they don't know what the clothes from my children's dolls just they never seem to have them on. And, and had knocked over my water bottle and spilled water across my desk. And I just, you know that it kind of brought up so many different kinds of images and emotions like that doll very much represents my daughter, and even just the water bottle in a way kind of represents me and it's that whole being torn into of having these two cells that are constantly vying for your attention. Your art it's that struggle I mentioned earlier, where half your brain is thinking about ideas and half your brain is thinking about what's for dinner. Let's see at the exact same moment. Yeah, it never stops so going back to your early days when you say like you had to convince your mom to to let you do your study. Were you always a very creative child growing up? Yeah, I think so. Well, it's I always loved painting and always loved art and always wanted to be an artist. My family, I live in Dublin now but I grew up down in Kilkenny. And my mom always had this thing my family my dad was a racehorse trainer. And we I have five sisters. So the six girls, we all worked with horses. is all the time. But my mum was always like we're always having broken arms and broken legs and ending up in hospital. And she used to say to us, I don't care what you do when you grow up, you'll have your own jobs and your own lives. I don't want you to work in horse racing, or art of this of the six girls for have ended up in horse racing. And two, I'm an artist and my other sister has an art gallery. So I think I think she could just see the way things were going, like, really early on, and she tried to redirect us. But I think once your brain is set on something, you know, you're going to end up there. If you're driven enough, no matter how much you're kind of diverted, you're going to weave back around to what you really want. So yeah, that's it. There's there's no stopping that. That inner passion. I don't think it's just an even if you try to try and stop it. It's yeah, it still tries to creep out does that. Yeah. Do you? You mentioned your children a little bit too. Can you tell us how many children you have a little bit about your family? Yeah, I have two children, a 10 year old daughter. She's the eldest and a seven year old son. And yeah, they're, they're great. They're the at a really good age, I think. And I, I always, when I was younger, I didn't ever know. I couldn't ever imagine me with babies. Because I was the youngest of my family, I'd never even held a baby. When I was about 16. I went to France and worked as an au pair, where I looked after a baby, it was my first time ever even holding a child. Even I wasn't one of those people in school who went you know, as the younger groups came into school that I would go and oh, the new kids are in Yeah, I actually really didn't care about anybody younger than myself. I always wanted to hang out with people older than me. So I think that's why when I was pregnant with my first child, it was kind of traumatic of like, I don't think I can do this. I could see myself with older children, but never with babies. But obviously, like now, 10 years on, I realized that everybody's just learning as they go along. And you know, babies are quite forgiving. They love you. No matter how terrible you are as a mother. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, so do you, when you when you had your first child, your daughter, where you work while you're doing your art, like a lot at the time, and did have to sort of stop? Or did you manage to keep going? How did it sort of work? Weirdly, I think it amped up a bit at the time, because I mentioned earlier. I, my art had been about traveling and things like that. And then suddenly this fear of you know, motherhood and what was expected of me. And, you know, I worked full time and all my spare time was given to my art. And now I was going to be a mother and working. So working motherhood on art. I was like, how do the three things fit into each other. But like I said, I needed the therapy, almost of doing the art. So my first solo show is is was called domestic. And it was about when my mom found out I was pregnant. She sent me her recipe for brown bread. Actually, she ran me and said, I'll give you my recipe for gram bread now and I was like, oh my god is that who will I will become this person who makes bread. And I just couldn't get my head around it. Because I'm a terrible Baker and I still am. So I just said no, I can't even deal with you've given me this recipe over the phone. So she wrote it down and sent it to me in a letter. So I had this letter. And that was the starting point for doing this whole series. called domestic, which was about the fear of becoming a mother. But it was centered around, I always use kind of ordinary objects to kind of trigger emotion. And you know, this kind of sense of recognition yourself like, like, oh, so I use the recipe for brown bread. And I did make the brown bread once. really badly. No, it was edible. We'll just leave it at that. But isn't that interesting? That's like, your mom sort of had it was almost like this initiation. It's like, okay, now you're allowed to know these these things you weren't allowed to know before. This Fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not that I wasn't allowed to know them. It's like, she just thought I would have no interest in nowhere, which I did. I didn't have any interest in making brown bread. And then when I was told, Oh, now you'll probably want to make brown bread. I was like, oh, so me as a person, I'm going to change completely. Yeah. Okay. I had never even thought that. But actually, I didn't, I never became this person who made brown bread. So I can sort of like, if you're already feeling a little bit anxious about everything. And then to get that and to have that, that moment of going, Oh, hang on a sec, I'm going to these all these changes are going to happen. Like that would have been quite startling, like, not very reassuring. Yeah, like the whole pregnancy and your body changing and all that that's a very physical and normal and well kind of documented kind of process that you can google and go, Okay, that's totally normal. What I wasn't prepared for I think, was just the avalanche of advice, and all these conflicting things that people are telling you and telling you about the person you will become. And I was like, I don't want to change I still want to be me, you so can I not be me, an artist and a mother and still do my job. But, of course, some things do change, but some things don't. I think it's so it's so important to to keep your pre pre pray mother self, it's like, it's so important. And yeah. It's even, you know, my daughter, she keeps pointing out to me that I'm a decade now. So like, I, I can now look at the whole, the whole thing is still very fresh to me a decade later, I still very clearly remember. But the trauma of that change that was happening. And I still, I'm still struggling with my identity, like 10 years later, of how much of me is me? And how much do I give over? And even that guilt of like, am I holding myself? Too much of myself back? When I'm with my kids, I throw myself into it. And you know, I love them. And I love them, Tibet and have great fun with them. Like we have great crack, that really at a lovely age at the moment where, you know, they're interested in things and their brains are just fascinating, like, like my daughter is cleverer than I am. When we were locked down there for the last 10 days with COVID. She learned how to do a Rubik's Cube, something I have never been able to do. And I found myself last night like googling it and doing a step by step guide and I swore I wanted to throw the thing in the bin and I was like, How does she do this? She's 10 Like she has worked a site and I can't. COVID the pandemic started or whatever. I actually took a step back from work. And the work was always an important part of my identity as well. I was a creative director and an advertising agency when all this hat and I just did took a step back and needed to be with the children. And it was just this, like a one stop, it was kind of taken away, I realized how much of myself I was giving to work, actually. And when it was just divided between my art and my children, I actually saw that that's where a lot of the struggle was happening. But also, I realized how much of myself I'd been given away to work. And because I suppose also your job is creative. It sucks a lot of the creative energy out of us so, but I still, I feel like now I have a much better life balance where it's, you know, probably I was gonna say 50% Children 50% Or it's but it's probably 70% Children 30% ours if I was to be totally honest. With the guilt then, do you ever feel like the pool between, like, do you ever consciously have that thought I shouldn't be doing this art now. Because the kids are meant to be doing their homework and I need to check on it. Like, does it feel like that? That Oh, all the time, all the time. It never stops. If when I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing the other. If and then, you know, then I have like a my different kind of selves start to resent each other. You know, I feel like there's a constant struggle in my head, I have to say, where if I'm in the zone painting. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I just I just need half an hour. And I hear myself saying that the children are knocking at the door. Because they're hungry, or, you know, I want to do this or can you open that for me or you know, and I'm like, Just give me 30 more minutes, I swear, I'll be done in 30 minutes. And you know, and then when I'm i if i But if I don't get that time to do my art, I find myself just being this horrible, angry person that I don't like, you know that. You know, even though my seven year old will come and hug me he really knows how to defuse my pent up frustration, he'll come and hug me and go, Oh, Mommy, Mommy, I love you. Please don't be angry mommy, which he sees as a whole other person. And it's angry mommy who comes out when I when I just feel like I haven't been able to get into my studio and do anything. I feel. Actually, I'm just a much nicer person. When I have my art practice running smoothly as well. Like some days you really feel like you're winning and oh my god, I'm totally killing this. I'm like doing everything. You know that like, yeah, I am the woman who has it all. Oh my god, this is incredible. And, unfortunately, it's where those days are rare. But for for the most part, I can resolve the fact of you know, okay, today, I didn't spend as much time in my studio or, you know, things just didn't work out when I was there. But, you know, tomorrow will be a better day, I've become a lot better. I think actually motherhood teaches you the US you know, as babies, you're always told, you know, tomorrow will be better, you know, and not pits reset on everything. So I bring that to my own life. You know, I'm just gonna sleep on this and reset and in the morning everything will be better. So yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I remember having those feelings of when like in the middle of the night I'd just be thinking that's okay. The sun will come up in the morning and we'll just start again and just see how this makes one goes and yeah, that's a really good way of looking at you know, yeah, I don't like and you and your expectations I suppose around what what you want Want to get done and what you life allows you to get done, I suppose. Yeah. And even like just looking at children and IVIG can go to bed being these like really angry and you know, you're having a big row about something. And the next morning, they've totally forgotten about it and you're like, okay, okay, I suppose I better just forget about that too. And move on. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's so true Yep. Wanted to ask you about, there's a series that you did the compact compart mental causation. So it's spilling over the three lines. All right, this was like, personally, my my pop that passed away. Just recently, he was 1994. And when I saw the things like, I just like the birds and I don't know, it's, it was like I was meant to see it because he had pigeons. And so all these all the birds that you had, sorry, I'm talking about this, people won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll put a link up. And then the window. It was just I got really like smacked in the heart by that it was just incredibly moving. Thank you again. And like, like I said earlier, a lot of my work becomes, it comes out of me working through emotions. And just at the beginning of the pandemic, my dad passed away. Again, he was 92. It was just before his birthday is 92nd birthday, actually. And he'd been sick for a while. So my six six girls and my mom, we were down there with him when he died. And there were a couple of days where we were kind of waiting for the inevitable to happen. It was really kind of torturous, long drawn out kind of fairly traumatic, actually the whole thing. And we sat in his room and the these murmurations just started in the evening, which we didn't really have grown up when I was a kid murmuration of starlings. And it became a kind of a thing that we did, we'd go out and watch the birds and then come back in. And it's funny, like you mentioned that your your dad kept pigeons. My dad actually had this like, like, because we had racehorses, he had this thing that the birds were like eating the horses feed and shipping and the horses he used to have this ongoing battle with keeping the birds away so it was just weird that all these birds like that this became a thing and Mike my childhood growing up I won't go into the graphic stories of what happens on farms when people are trying what they kind of considered to be pest control. But my dad was not very nice to birds, I think. And we lived out in the country and it was just he just wanted them away. So it just became this weird kind of thing as I watched him die to see the birds flying around. They just seem to all most come back and I don't know I don't know if it was something that I don't even think it was his Spirit coming back as birds I don't know Was there some kind of karma in but but even even just to kind of watch the birds from his room. So it became very represent representative of him and the idea of compartmentalization was I like obviously I loved my Dad, and we all idolized him for that you could in depth, we kind of put away all the things that were bad about the person, like he wasn't a saint, and he was a tough man to grow up with me. I think he made us all quite tough. But, you know, nobody talked about any of the bad stuff at the funeral. It was all very, wasn't he great? And I think that's a very Irish thing to do. Or maybe it was, it's just something we deal with. In grief, you have to put things in boxes and kind of put them away and go, do you know what, right now I'm just not going to deal with that, I'm just going to deal with this little piece of how I'm feeling. So that's, that was how that I did a window done in the black church print studio, a little display where I actually printed a murmuration on a downstairs bathroom window from my house where my dad used to watch the birds and decide to go out and kill some of them like, to be perfectly honest. And so I actually brought a new thing into my practice as well, where it was like printing on find objects and kind of moving off paper and editions and stuff like that as well. Yeah. So it'd be just like experimenting with with things. Yeah, with materials. And just, I suppose I never really felt the need to. I think that the part of me that isn't a printmaker is I don't need to do, you know, 10 perfectly executed prints in that they are absolutely identical. For me, it's the process of printing and the process of bringing to life an idea that kind of exercises, the feelings and the emotions. And that's my therapy. And once it's done, it's done. And I find it really hard to revisit, I could never reprint anything I've printed before. Once it's done, it's gone. And yeah, that emotion has left me almost Yeah. I had cancer a couple of years ago, and some of my work was was about that. Just, I suppose in terms of me using my art as a kind of a therapy to work through stuff. So that actually was, again, a huge part of recovery. From in fact that I did a show at the time called treatment, which was obviously just coming out of treatment, and it was even kind of linked to this whole desire for things that comfort you like and looking at my children and I think at the time I was constantly like, giving them treats as well. And so the again, the words often the kind of Lincoln spark things in my head and and, you know, whereas at the time when I was sick, I couldn't really stomach sweet things, but I was craving them but like I'm feeding them to my children as a way of comforting them or compensation that mommy couldn't be there because she was in hospital or whatever. So so that was just, yeah, I think I'm tired of treatment about two years and I finished in early 2018. So gosh, four years. Good for you. Do your children. That's sort of a two part question. So your children are aware of your artmaking and your tuition? And if that's the case, is it important for you that they see that they see what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world? Yeah, I certainly don't keep them away from us. Like, on occasion, I've bought them to my print studios well, and I suppose I don't sit down and explain my work to them. But they're definitely they know that they're in the work. And sometimes I kind of talked to them about it. Like the piece I mentioned earlier motherlode where I felt I came across as quite dark and negative towards parenting. It was important to me that my children knew that, like, I love them. Absolutely, wholeheartedly. And that it was about the the accumulation and the drudgery of the little small tasks that that just get on top of you that it's not the mothering part, it's the all the little things that build and build and build. That, you know, so it's important that they know how much I love them. And that if my work deals with the network and negative aspects of motherhood, that, that it's not about them. It's about the role. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's not direct reflection on them personally. Yeah, absolutely. And do you sort of feel like, it's good for them to say that, like that identity, again, that, that mums can be more than, say, just a mom, because whenever just mom, but in your children's eyes, is it? Do you feel like it's good for them to see you, you know, leaving the home and doing your thing? And, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I would hate if, like, when I'm talking about my art, I refer to it as work as well, since I left advertising and leaving the house to like, earn a wage. I suppose I did kind of feel like my art isn't necessarily earning a wage. But I refer to it as my work, because I would hate my children to differentiate between the fact that my husband works. And that his work has more value and more importance, because he gets paid for it. So there's always this balance of my art definitely does come second, as work in the house, because, you know, it can get pushed and deadlines are a little bit more flexible, and we need to pay the bills. But it's important for me that they understand that my work is important to absolutely, he put that beautifully. That was very well put. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that I refer to my music now I say, I'm going to do some music work. Because it's like, I it's so important to me. And it's not just um, fluffing around and having a bit of fun. Like, I do love it. And it's fun, but it's like, I want to get something done. I'm trying to achieve something. So to me, it's like it is work. It's labor, you know? So yeah, I've started constantly calling that. I don't know, when the kids have noticed. Yeah, but I think it just it does, it reinforces something, a degree of worth on what we're doing. And that it's not like he said, just me playing and having a nice time. Like it actually it is work it is hard to it would be very easy just to sit down and do nothing when you know, the kids are in bed or distracted with something else. So it would be easy not to do work. But the fact that you compel you're compelled to go in and work out your music and I'm compelled to go work out my art. You know, it's and I think a work a work ethic is also important. So you know, I want the guys to know that I when they go to school, I get up every day and I'm like in my studio working until I become mom and have to go pick them up and do the after school activities and stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Literally Yep. I can't let you go without asking you about your connection to your racing family, which I did Google actually. It's pretty impressive that your sister married Aiden O'Brien. And this is Joseph O'Brien, who's where to milk and converse. I do have my nephew Joseph Joseph O'Brien. He is called Joseph after my dad's. And he trains on the hill at home in Kilkenny where my dad trained his horses. So basically, my when my sister and Marie my eldest sister got married, she married Aiden, who worked for another trainer Jim Bolger. When they got married, he moved over to us in Kilkenny, and they, my dad kind of said, Okay, you can train on, you know, my gallops and gave them kind of half of the so they built their own stables and they we all trained together. So my dad was still training at the time, and he's super competitive. So he, you know, obviously Aiden is pretty competitive as well. So, actually, my dad had handed my license his license to my sister, who then gave it transferred to Aiden when she got pregnant, which was a she was pregnant, like, very young, she thinks she was 23. So, you know, I think then, my dad just couldn't, like, cope with the fact that, you know, Aiden was in a training on the hill, even though Aiden was like, he wasn't well known back then he kind of made his name then training with my dad, and well in competition to my dad. So, like, the dinner table was always, you know, quite funny. And, you know, then my next sister married a national hunt jockey, travel Oregon. Then my next sister had an art gallery and then my next sister married paths Mullen, yep. And she was well known racehorse trainer as well. And Pat was champion, flat jockey here like, God, I don't know, 10 times in a row. And then my twin sister is married to a jockeys agent and racing pundit on a racing channel here. So that's so my, my husband's like our family gatherings like people just talk core. So I like that horse racing is always on. Probably on about three different TVs in the house. You know, when when we get together like that, people just talk horses. Yeah, I can imagine it'd be bad. Like if you didn't enjoy the trophy, just to sit there and take it. Yeah. I mean, I worked with the horses myself, like up until I was about 18 or 19. I had a jockeys license I wrote as an apprentice. Oh, yeah. But I think a lot of it was just trying to prove that I could do it. I really did not have the interest or passion for horses, like I know, I loved horses. It's not something I yeah, for the industry. I didn't want to spend my life in horse racing. Yeah. Is it really scary writing, like, riding them that fast? I'm sorry, that just came in and no, yeah, it's, do you know what it's actually it's not the speed you're going us. For me? It was the sense of control I. They're, like, it's this muscle of machine that you have to be in control of, and I just never felt in control of the horse completely. And, again, it was it's kind of a battle of wills as to whether the horse is allowing you to control it and you know, I always felt like if they weren't allowing me to, so I used To get run away with all the time I was kind of small and light, so and the amount of times like the horse would just take off at me and I like that is the scary part of it of not being in control. So I it's funny I yeah, I ended up in hospital several times with head injuries and broken legs and actually one of the pieces we discussed earlier one of my art pieces, that's the water bottle knocked over with the dead baby doll. The words bottle actually is a racing term. It's like a jockeys bottle is your bravery. So I would often like have like said to my sisters, no, I've totally lost my bottle. I can't do this anymore. A year. So in a weird way, like bottle is courage and bravery. And and that was the kind of a phrase that was in my head when I was doing that art piece. And it probably comes from my racing background Yeah. Can I ask you what you've got coming up? If you're working on anything in particular? I mean, with the COVID restrictions, I don't know if that means you can't do shows or anything. But if you got anything you want to mention. Yeah, well, I was part of a group show last year that I organized with seven other artists and I did a piece called motherlode for that, which was it was again, one off piece, it was four canvases that where I repeated these three objects over and over and over again to show this kind of build of I suppose the build of the daily burden of motherhood and parenthood. Yeah, that kind of falls to us. And when I stood back and looked at it, I had the pieces quite gray and blue and dark. And it felt like, you know, that was definitely something that was coming out of the pandemic and didn't really feel like me. So I actually have made a conscious decision where I want to do something that redresses that balance of that last piece that I feel, you know, came out of me, but maybe miss represents where I am now, you know, I've been working on a body of work called the kitchen sink, which, again, sounds depressing, and was coming from waking up every morning and making coffee and looking into my sink and going, Oh, my God, you know, there was always like some kind of dirty dishes in there that never either made it into the washing machine or were put in after the washing machine was put on. And it was like building this resentment and frustration in me. And I thought, I need to redress my thinking here and start thinking, and I started seeing the kitchen sink as an art project. So I would look in the sink and see what was in there. And it would become a memory and nice memory of the meal we'd had the evening before. So I started sketching what was in the thing, or taking photographs and sketching it later. And then working out. You know, just while I was doing that, thinking about the meal we had and the conversations we had. And suddenly it became this beautiful thing where again, I use objects to kind of symbolically word these objects in a sink became this symbolic diary entry of my life almost so can't wait. Well, it's something I've been working on for the last few months. And now I'm also just about to I was supposed to move into a new studio, which I have temporarily with Randall Arts at a local arts organization that I work with. So I'm going to take the back room here. It's an it's an initiative I want to bring to other businesses that rooms that are lying empty for businesses that they could do short term art artists residencies in there. So I'm doing a kind of a pilot scheme, I'm going to be moving into the back room of this building today, and start painting from there for a month or two months or six weeks and see how it goes. So that's kind of excited. Yeah, I'm a little bit terrified of moving to somewhere a bit more public as well, you kind of have that fear of exposing yourself of like, because not every piece works actually. Okay. And you're like going, Oh, no, that's crap, I just have to put that facing the wall. So nobody ever sees that again. Or, you know, like I am used to being in my print studio, where other people are there, and you're meeting other people. So but I, I know, was part of this, moving down to this temporary art studio. At the end of this residency, I plan to do kind of an open day in the studio and invite people in and talk about my work. Because I mean, there has to be, I wanted to be of benefit to the arts organization, as well. So there has to be kind of a quid pro quo. So so I'm interested to see how how it will affect my work. And, you know, will I even be able to work there? I'm kind of slightly terrified. It's a new adventure, I have to say, well, there you go. It'll be an interesting challenge. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's important to keep moving forward and do stuff that terrifies you. I try to I try to not shy away from things that scare me. So I always say to my, I always say to my daughter, you know, being brave is being scared, but doing it anyway. That's so true, isn't it because you're allowed to feel scared, but then you have to do it. Anyway. That's actually a quote that one of the girls I interviewed early in season one said said the same thing. He said, You can be scared you can be terrified out of out of your mind. But you have to do it anyway. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been lovely, was great. And it's, it's fascinating. I'm really interested in the fact that, like, sometimes we don't, I think in the art world as well, like, there's this concept of, you know, I don't want to be a mommy artists kind of talking about motherhood. And I made a conscious decision not to shy away from us, because I just, I like, it's who I am. Some people do their work, and it's escapism from, you know, the drudgery and the mundane and the every day, but I I kind of my work is my life in a way. So I just, it's a record of it or so. So I feel like it's, maybe I talk about it too much. But I think I think we don't talk about it enough. Honestly, I just think I think you're right, people have this stigma that you can't have the two coexisting. It's like, if you want to be serious, you got to just put all that to one side and just, you know, pretend it's Yeah, but it's innate. It's a part of you. And it's, you can't help but have it influence what you do, whether you realize it or not, but I think but yeah, it's maths even. Yeah, like, I remember even in work in advertising, you know, some people would, it would almost be taboo to say that you had to leave work to pick up your children, like people almost pretended they weren't parents. That's scary, isn't it? And I just feel like this is like a huge part of who I am. And I can't deny it or pretend it doesn't exist and why would I want to? So I kind of make no apologies for my art dealing with motherhood and it's nice to see that there. I see different organizations around the world. I'm a member of a group in Edinburgh called Spilt Milk. And we're again, it's a support network for artists who are mothers. And not all the work deals directly with motherhood, but it's just, it's interesting. It really makes me feel part of a community. I don't have that direct support in Dublin or in Ireland. But I find the support internationally, more readily available. So that means that's fantastic. So I was delighted to when you reached out to get in touch about it. Oh, that's great. I appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Are you itching for a good story? laughter among friends maybe even a mystery or two? Well, you're in luck. Five Raven kings is a standalone Dungeons and Dragons podcast. Each episode is a separate three hour long story like a movie for your ears. So you can listen to these adventures in any order you like. So join us on a real play d&d quest as we solve mysteries attempt, comedic banter and enjoy friendship. Fiber Ethan kittens podcast, fantasy, action, mystery, friendship