Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. On today's episode, I welcome Shan Rong gana ceviche Torre to the podcast, a violinist and music educator based in New York City and a mother of one. Born in China, SHAN Rong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start Shenron grew up in a valley long way from the city so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so that she could educate her. After just four years of lessons, Shenron was accepted into her high school conservatory talent program. After school Shan rung traveled to Singapore, to complete her undergraduate education at the young suto Conservatory of Music. Shenron then traveled to Pittsburgh to do her master's and four years later was accepted into the doctorate program in New York City. Shenron holds a master's degree and artist certificates in violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music. Shenron also has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of our college and preschool students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching Shenron was a teaching assistant in western music history and rock music history at Stony Brook University. Today, we chat about the unexpected injury that shamrock has suffered since becoming a mother role modeling the wheel to never give up. And the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her eight month old son and the rumble of the New York City trains. The music you hear throughout this episode was composed by a previous guest of mine, Dr. Erica ball from the United States. This episode contains discussion around anxiety.

Is that lady talking to my mom? Welcome Shenron it's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. So you're in New York City. Tell me a little bit about life in New York City. I think it's one of those places that people always sort of want to visit and and aspire to visit. Just tell us what it's like to live there.

New York City is very busy. The living past is really fast. And I don't know if it's because I get I'm getting older. And that I'm a mom. So I just felt like Monday to Friday just like a flying so fast. You just don't notice that. And then time is gone. Yeah, we just live here. Day by day and just very busy. Yeah. Yeah. You are is always very exciting. It's a lot of going on a lot of arts going on and a lot of things going on. I'm really happy that after, you know, we sort of going through this kind of pandemic thing locked down and are kind of dead in that moment. And then everything's getting back slowly. Which I'm happy. Yeah, but in general is very, very fast. Very busy city.

Yeah, for sure. Very good. What brought you to New York City.

Oh, I sort of traveled all over the place. Orange finally I was born in China. I went to Singapore for my undergraduate studies. So I was in Singapore for many years and To come to state is really the reason that I came here to study my master's degree, pursue my further education. So yeah, I went to Carnegie Mellon for my master's degrees. And also my artists deploy my training over there in Carnegie Mellon, and I moved to New York in 2015, just to come here to complete my doctoral degree.

So let's share with our listeners what you do you play the violin, and incredibly well to you, because I've watched some of your videos that were linked to your website, just beautiful. Tell us about how you got started playing.

Yeah, I actually started on this road when I was 10. It wasn't, it wasn't early, because most of my colleagues theory, or starters, like two and a half and why? Well, I lived in your Valley in China. And it's kind of far from CD. So I never actually get a chance to actually get to touch this instrument. But I always see people playing back then in team on TV. So I was holding a chopsticks. Like, I'm pretending I'm playing. And I even like I wasn't sure what I was doing. But I always very excited to see people playing, even to hear just hear the music. Yeah. And just by occasion, that my mom's friend's daughter actually got a chance to go to Sydney to learn this instrument. And then they brought the teacher to the valley. So I actually started a group lesson. And I was one of those overdose coats in the class. And I was just basically running around. I wasn't learning in the moment, my mom was like, What are you doing after half year, I don't even know the open strings of my instruments. She sort of getting into it, it was like, and she started getting all those books. And she started to study by herself. And she started to just teach me and after half year, my mom sort of fired the teacher. And she brought me on this road. And we found a teacher in CT will occasionally go into that teacher's house, like every half year because it's only two hours by bus from the valley. I used to live to the city. So my mom does lead me there, like every half year. But the rest of time she won't be learning by those teaching tapes. And you know, that then, like 20 years ago, then we don't have like DVDs or those kind of things. We have like your VCR like you really big tape. Yeah, yeah, we do. And my mom bought all those teaching tapes and that she just, I don't know, she's amazing. You should learn about ourselves. She got all those books and she watched you have people play on the TV and she just learned how to hold a ball how to read music. She just taught her something and I just after four years and I got into high school consequently, talent, talent program. Yeah, by playing Czajkowski are actually not checkups me. I played school as planning concerto, the first movement when I was 14 years old. Yeah. Well, I started 13 years old. And I yeah, I do not know how I have no idea. How did I do it? Everything for me? Yeah. So that's how I started. And after, you know, years of studies, and I just auditioned, and I got into Singapore. That's long story short, so I got into Singapore finished my bachelor and I started my masters in Pittsburgh. And four years later, I got into the doctoral program is still over. Yeah, that's just the kind of trip. Wow, that is. That's

an incredible story that your mom was so passionate for you to play that she basically she became your teacher.

And she also ended up teaching her having her own studio. Yeah, brought up so many very, so many talented students. And actually, one of them now works for Amazon and she used to be playing a lot but now she's, she's working for Allah. Come like go scientists for the Amazon yeah

what was it like having your mom as a teacher? Was she really tough on you because you were your daughter? Or she was she liked?

Yes. I think she has a lot of patience for me. Because I wasn't an easy kid. I do not want to practice but she asked me do you want to practice? No, I definitely absolutely hate practicing with passion. Yeah. But she believes she believes in me and she trusts that I would have this as my career. She's for some reasons too. So that in my in my life, hmm. Yeah. I do not know how she did it. But that's she had been she gave up a lot to give up her work. And she dedicated to my practice. She gave up TV shows. She don't watch TV. And she just cut off her friends for me to just be with me and practice. Yeah, she sets all my lessons and she sets all my practice.

Yeah. Is your mom still alive now?

Yeah, she's she she now she's a she lives in China.

Yeah, so she's been able to see your whole career like she's she's seen everything you've achieved. She must be so incredibly proud of you.

Well, she was happy time to time well, she will also get very critical comment. So basically tell me I really don't like your dress that you wear on the performance punch you just tie your hair better I think that phrase you can do that phrase again, like in this way. So Interplay playing and she's so into my performance my like a progress. Yeah. Like a performance related or now like nowadays I teach a lot and she sometimes give me feedbacks or my teaching or she will give me some advice on how to handle my students. Oh, wow.

That is incredible. So at that time in China was that something that was out of the ordinary for a mum to do?

Well, that's back then. It's very rare that for someone will quit her job. Basically just to dedicate everything give everything to the child. Oh, very unusual. Yeah. Yeah. People don't seem I understand. People even laughed at her like you know, say Oh, I gotta see how is your young daughter going to be but turned out nobody knows what's gonna happen

So how old you little boy there seven month and last. I love seeing his photos when you put things up on his on your Instagram. He's just the most gorgeous I bet you hear that a lot.

You Yeah, people always like Well, yeah, like if they want people if people know me the result? Ah, he looks like Daddy or you look like mommy. I'd be if I walk on the street. I got someone asked me I knew the nanny. Like there's one day there's a lady random lady come up to me that people find that very respectful but like I just want that for fun. Yeah. Thinking that maybe because my, I wasn't dressed well, because nowadays when you become a mom, you don't have time to think, Oh, I got to put up makeup, I got to dress nicely, I have things first thing on my shirt, or just wear sweatpants and running out, just get some food, you know, like I don't have I could totally actually complain about that

tell us about some of the things I was reading in your bio about places that you've performed and things that you've done and share with us a little bit about some of the things the performances or the things you've done that really stick in your mind that that you're like your favorites, I suppose?

Well, I have to

really say that I really enjoy performing, especially chamber music. And not even mention about solo music. Mean solo means just love it by yourself. So far, I have done a lot of performance with string instruments or piano a lot. And but last year in November, I performed it with a newly formed orchestra in New York City, which is right after, like not too long after I gave birth. I gave birth in August, and then that concert happened in November. I played with this chamber orchestra.

Yeah. Yeah, so that's basically what I do. Yeah, the performance. Yeah. And hopefully,

a new future that I can't have some more kind of like a chamber music series come up. So I can perform. During the pandemic is a little hard. Oh, like a 2020 2020 2021. Back then from 2020 was a first year. We don't, we don't like everywhere in New York City was shut down. Like retrim Metropolitan Opera was shut down and new. New York Philharmonic was shut down. And all the artists has no stage to perform. The concert halls was close. So but the time I still didn't give up. So I flooded positions we performed on the performance on the road on the side of the road. And we put we played a lot of string string works like like trills, Doros and solo violence. Yeah. And we played those kind of outdoor concerts. You have a pandemic, and we have great turnout. Yeah. And also, I also played a lot in church, which our church I played with organ and piano. Yeah. A lot. The only thing that I don't I didn't do much is in to play in the orchestra. I don't consider myself an orchestral musician. Although I love orchestral music. I love to be your audience. Instead of sitting in. Yeah, maybe hopefully, in the future, maybe I will have a different experience. Or maybe my, my feeling will change. But who knows.

I enjoy

chamber music. Oh,

yeah. The only one of the videos I was watching, you're playing the solo for winter by the rowdy from the four seasons. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That performance?

Oh, that performance was in 2013. And I was selected by the school. And that year was the 100 years anniversary for Carnegie Mellon University. So that was to the gala concert. So I was like, there were there was a call permutation is cool. Like, we have like a 10 students playing the same piece. And I got lucky got selected to play that gala concert. And it was it was broadcast at the same time on the wq. Ed. Radio Station classical. Yeah. And to all the December because it will happen in December, right. It was a winter concert and true December. Everyone can hear my flying on this radio station. It was just repeatedly playing during that season. It's like a holiday season. Like, if you hear winter. That's me. I forgot my friend called me. Turn on the radio. You were you were on the plane. Oh, that was wonderful experience for me. And costs a house for a beautiful two.

Yeah, and playing in front of that orchestra would have been quite incredible for you. And

we have a choir, the choir entire choir was behind me. Like it turned out because there's no time for people to stand out from the stage. So I just have to come out play and then off again

Absolutely. So what are your, some of your favorite pieces or favorite composers that you enjoy to play?

Well, over the years, it's changing so much. I remember when I was just out from college, I enjoyed the play. Chuck kowski. Like, you know, those very romantic pieces. And then time passing, right that you grow older and you experience a lot in life. And I figured I I do really, really like love Beethoven. And I love Brahms. And then later on, I started to get into a lot of contemporary pieces, too. And buy new composers. Yeah. But in general, my. My favorite composer, I have to say the pieces to play is Beethoven is controllable. And he's so novice and also Bach. Yeah, that's like, the top. Yeah, yeah. I have nothing to work on. If I have nothing to play, I will just do something. Yeah.

was pregnant 2020 in November? Yeah. So 2021 is the time like, basically, I got pregnant. And I still manage the practice back then. Although the first three months was really hard, because I my body was just off. I couldn't get off the couch. Yeah. So and then after that I still kept practicing. And so I also managed to have rehearsals with my friend. Yeah. And I had rehearsals in my house. And I also did rehearsal with my friend who plays the viola we we've prepared, prepared for the concert to be happening in November last year. Yeah. But we hadn't rehearsed. So in May, June, July, and, like I go to give birthday August, sort of like that. And I managed to practice because I say is pandemic essence, I'm not going anywhere. So I sort of made a list of work that I wanted to practice.

Yeah,

but I never get a chance. But now I got pregnant, so I had a plenty time. And then I just started practicing all those pieces. Yeah,

yeah. Great, great time to work on things that you don't have time for.

But yeah. So like, during that time, I found myself I can sit down and to just focus longer. I do not know. Because if there's a because of hormones or like I have just been changed.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's a beautiful photo that you sent me. of you. I'm not can't remember how many months pregnant now, but you've you've got your violin. And then you've got the baby violin sitting on your name.

Yeah, that was

in June, July. Yeah, July. We're in year two. I watch any beginning of July. We're in year two. Yeah. That's yeah. So like, my friend. I was kept asking me if I want my boy to play instruments. I said no. I saw her daughter swollen. Because my friend she was still photograph. Until I saw that. I was like, oh, like, let me take a photo with it. Yes, I guess maybe we. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman.

You said that you went back and your first performance was when your sound was three months old. How How hard was that to do?

Well, I think the trickiest thing for me back then was when we had to have rehearsal. I had the conductor and I had the other soloist came to my apartment. And the hardest thing is you're rehearsing babies all weekend. So the conductor, so they are they're both are my friends. So the conductor has to hold my baby in one hand and listen to us like it's kind of you Yeah, he was. He was to one month in house. Over two months.

Yeah. It's amazing what we do, isn't it to make things work?

Yeah. And also, sometimes he has to just see through my practice. Yeah, I have to, or like during the rehearsal when the conductor wasn't here, just me and the violist. I had to put him right next to me was not my turn. I sort of

like, like a pedicab.

Like him to calm down. And when those my term and to enter, I have to grab my esteros. Fast and join. Join her. Yeah, that was it was a challenge.

But yeah, but that's the thing, though, isn't it? It's like, I guess you wanted to get back to playing it was important for you to keep that part of your life going.

Yeah. So I have to say, if you if I look back from the time when I give birth to now, the hardest thing and making more than most is actually not because I don't have time to practice or I don't have energy is that truly the ones that I because I have to keep holding the baby and I sort of develop mommy's wrist Oh, third most last November when I performed with this collective 366 My wrist my full hand was really painful. I sort of have to change a lot of Boeing's because that to compensate, but a lot of boys that I do. So I because that reason hurts so much. I cannot do a post ago. So I have to sort of change the bowing that I used to do before I give birth. So now I have to change a lot of things to make it happen. Yeah, for sure. And then after performance, the baby is scoring bigger and I have to carry him continuously to calm him down. Right and, and then my left hand also developed the mommy's wrist. So now that I come to the question that uh, do I have to give up my plane? Now, yes, I sort of have to say a lot of said no to a lot of concerts performance. Yeah. It hurts even when I have to just demonstrate to my students. Yeah, I can do. I cannot do shifts. Yeah, on my left hand, I cannot really do shifts because it hurts the muscle when I have to use too. Well, the good thing is this just a temporary in just a moment. So I, I wasn't giving up the whole whole thing yet. So I'm just basically I'm not taking any performance. I'm not performing or having any rehearsal, but I still happen to manage that to practice self care basic skills. Yeah, yeah. Like to, like I'm now here. I'm actually a new mom taking baby steps. Yeah, I'll make sure to Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, physically, you can use I can play longer. longest time I have some some sort of movements that I can do.

Yep. Wow. Was that something that you anticipated? When, when you were pregnant? No, I

was actually shocked. I didn't know. I didn't do research that I might going to this. Some women, they were experiencing this kind of pain, even before the baby was born. I think it does have something related to the hormones.

Do you sort of feel a little bit like, I feel a bit like it's not fair that I've got to give up? You know, playing or do you feel okay with it?

I'm okay with it. Because children cared for, like, my baby is extension of my life. And it's from me and my husband. I don't really think it's not fair. And I, but I'm not. Also I'm not gonna say that. I'm enjoying every single moment. Fair. I'm not saying that I'm enjoying every single moment. But I'm, I'm just trying to experience every bit of it. Whether it is happy, whether it's tired, or even sad, or angry, or disappointed, sometimes love my husband is here if you're in there. I'm trying to experience because I believe this thing. Having a baby having a child in my life is should be part of my life. Yeah, let's see. Of course, it is very hard for a woman and to be a mom to be an artist to be a teacher to be an educator. It just so much to do even not to forget to be your wife.

Yeah, that's it.

I'm still struggling with how to balance sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I'm just really burnout. Yeah,

yeah. I think that's something I can all relate to.

Yeah, I'm really appreciate that. Although I don't have my parents with me, you know, in our culture, your, your parents can help you. Like, our parents can help us with baby. But we don't have our pants. It's basically me and my husband. So the daytime he is at work. And when he comes home, he will take over the baby then I can have some time to cook. And when the baby go to the bat, then we we finally have some time to eat and to clean it up, you know, just very busy. Oh, yeah. I'm still trying to figure out the time to practice not long, like at least an hour. Because my condition right now. Yeah, I did get angry. That angry and sad that my hands become like this mess, hence saturation. I was a little mad about this. But once I understood that was just gonna be a phrase of my life. And it's just differently. I have to be patient to slowing down with what I do now in life. Actually, actually started to enjoying the process of being with my baby. Because I know this one will never return. He will grow up bigger and this time we'll never return back. I can always go back to play and once he can go to daycare. My goal is not just in time to take here before to,

yes. That's

right. November last year, because it was just the three months, right, three months of after give birth. And then, you know, yes, before four month we are purely breastfeeding. So I don't really breast breastfeeding him. After two months, I was there pumping out so I can get some sleep. And so and my my friend who was of USA, her name is Makayla, and she was asking me, so what are you going to do when you're on the stage?

Are you going to leak or something? Nope. I have.

I said, I'm saying I have I think I have that figured out. So I will make sure that I come before I walk on the stage. So yes, you have sort of hot before you walk on the stage. Yeah. Yeah, because you I also have to dress like your performance dress. Right. And so yeah. I think go to time. Perfect. And cannot be too early. It cannot be too late. Yeah, because you also have to mentally prepared you're gonna do you have to perform. You have to be fully concentrate. Yeah. But then pumping is something jumping before the performance. Yes. Something that I got to figure it out.

You mentioned about your teaching, you're still teaching now.

Yes, I teach a lot. Yeah, I

teach. So actually, I

went back to teaching two weeks after I give birth. You know, it is pandemic. And it's not like I have to go somewhere. Yeah, it was online. So I spread my students to every day. So I have one hour for each student's per day. So it's not a lot work. So in fact, that's kind of like changing my how my brain works. So I it's so for me, actually teaching become a break for me. Yeah, I really enjoy teaching. That's the only time I don't have to work with baby. I don't have to work with baby. Yeah. And here I really have to, to say to my students, and the parents are so, so nice. So most of the time after New York back to normal, like meaning reopen. So I started to have private student come to my house. And the parents are either helping me carrying the baby or they will just allow me to carry my baby we're teaching. So my baby Jacob was exposed to music. So yeah, he will either sing along when I'm teaching. Yeah. Or he will just drag me my students for he is joining us most of the time.

Yeah. That's so nice. Isn't it that he's such a part of it? Yeah.

So I also teach in the weekend, weekends on Sunday. That's the time my husband wants so I have that day. I have that day. Just teaching

Yeah, for sure. When you first had your son, did you feel like you went through a change in your identity about how you saw yourself?

I think this part is very this part of me is very funny. And I don't know if other moms are like this too. After giving birth I cannot believe If I'm already on mom, I can question myself what is going on? And I cannot. Like if people are saying asking me Oh, how is the baby so your baby's fine, but I cannot. I find it really difficult for me to relate me as his mom.

Yeah. Well, I

have to talk to myself that I'm already a mom. Yeah. So, yes, my identity. I realize my identity changed over the months.

For sure. Yeah.

So I wasn't really, really aware of it. Even after I gave birth, I wasn't really aware for that. Yeah. Yeah. If you will tell me all your violinist Yes. You're a wife. Yes. But you're a mom. I was like, Let me think about it. But actually, yes.

Yeah. This is a topic I like to talk to all my mom's about mom guilt. Is that something that you've experienced? Or? Or what's your thoughts about that?

Yes, definitely. That frustration for me? I'm not exactly about because I I have to not been taken care of. It's just because it's because I have to learn how to sort of my What do you say that? Patients? Yeah, yeah. Patients, you know, musicians, artists are very, very emotional. They're very sensitive. We're very sensitive. So whatever.

baby cries will make me really, really anxious.

That's my gifts. Yeah, right. Make anxious and I find myself at the very beginning. I have very, very difficult time to actually sue him. And also calm myself down. And I will be actually crying together with. Yeah, that's the only mommy guilt. Yeah. Yeah. So well, I did my husband jumping and helping me. Wherever he crushed so much. He will just jump jumping in and take

him. Yeah, yeah.

Even like in the car riding like, I sometimes I can't really control my emotions when you know, anxious. That's totally normal. It happens to a lot of new moms. Oh, yeah. Well, like my husband won't help not appreciate and I had my students parents that I can talk to, and they won't give me a lot of advice because she had three three kids. Yeah, she got thing and I'm really appreciate these people in my life. Yeah, my mommy guilt is really just handling the baby. Learning. I just felt like I'm not learning that fast enough. I thought it's come natural, but actually not natural.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.

But that's my mom. I told her this is way harder than playing a violin.

Practice to

protect your next moments. And you're you're actually caring about your past, past, present and future you can control sort of controlling even on the stage. You know how it's gonna go. If you practice a baby, you can't. Oh, yeah, everyday.

Yeah. So that's, it's very challenging, isn't it? Yeah. Challenging.

Yeah. And also, yeah, I just felt like it's having a baby has a very, very big impact in my career. Yeah. But no regrets. I'm happy this I still happy that I made a decision decision to be alone. Yeah.

Yeah, like you said, it's a phase in your life and in he'll grow and change and then there'll be other things you know, As always, your violin will always be there

also, I won't let my identity that's part of me, I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future when they answer their own since I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because rather than teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that. Even through the hardest time I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love, and I always come back to

it. Yeah, absolutely.

And I will go get this encouragement from my wife, my mentor. His name is Philip Setzer. He's the violinist from Amazon, the famous Amazon quartet. He told me that his mom gave up her performance her career in for him to bring him up, spend all the time for the family to be a mom. But eventually, her mom came back and auditioned to kill Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and go into that orchestra and spend the rest of your life with that orchestra still be a professional Yeah, yes, he

wrote

this email to me he says he wants to give me some encouragement that never give up.

Now that's wonderful that is so good.

Hold on yeah

I'm very happy and I'm also very appreciate that the people in my life my friends that I mentioned earlier, the music director of collective 366 That's new orchestra and they are my friend in life that they always told me never give up they always told me well we're gonna play again yeah I'm really really appreciate that those people who you my life wanted to make music with me. Yeah, that I never forget my identity.

Absolutely. Oh, good on you. That sounds like you've got some really good people around yes fantastic. Have you got anything coming up any performances or things that you want to share with us?

So a music festival coming up in May. This is organized by conservatory Lila, named Lila music conservatory and that they have Music Festival in May. And also in August there will be some masterclass happening in the same place. I don't have further concerts coming up yet because my hands addiction. But I have two concerts planned in my

in my mind.

One is a solo works cause that was on the fingertips. And basically I will play a lot of dance music by Bach and also some contrary pieces and collaborated with some dancers. And also there will be another concert just basically by Stravinsky some work by Stravinsky and Bach. Yeah, wonderful. With Anest let's update those informations once I have clear debt on my on my website

oh good on you. That sounds great. Oh look, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and having you little man there too. Yeah.

Is very active. He wants to he already knows how to post them. Okay, by seven half. He hasn't had one taste yet. But he already can. He can already set up by himself. And he wants to pause then and just don't want to be just steel wants to move around.

He wants to go ready to get

very tired, but like Sometimes when I practice I just put him in a walker, or a Noona. Like the chair, and I just play for him. Yeah. Me, like, what are you doing? Yeah, most recently, last Saturday, I brought him to a piano masterclass. The professor played one phrase of Chapin. And it was so it's a it's a sad music. And he was he was so touched by the music. He was full tears in his eyes and start crying

oh I'm gonna let you go now. You can have Mammootty yourself again.

Oh, it was so nice to talk to you. Oh. My mom was a great example for me. Never give up.

And that's the math was like I I learned I saw how that happened.

Absolutely. I hope

in the future, I can come back to the stage again and continue to share great music with people with everyone.

I'm sure you will. I'm absolutely sure you will. We don't yet. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.