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Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on today's episode is Samantha red fan. Samantha is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and three children incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti. Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colors, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied Fine Art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolors, spray painting and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging on swimwear, and she sells it exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in locked down the patriarchy in art, and the economics of a working artist. We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. I hope you enjoy. This episode contains discussions around low mood and miscarriage. Welcome to the podcast, Samantha. It's so lovely to meet you today.

Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me on.

How did you end up in Singapore?

So we so me and my husband we met at university, so I did a fine art degree. And he did maths. So you know, leads make sense? are really bad maps. What do you do? I do maps? Oh, it's perfect pairing. So yeah, we've been together since we were 18. We've been together for a really long time, had three kids. But the third one we had out here. So we I don't know. I think we were just stuck in this. This routine, like, particularly me because my husband was working in London, he only saw the kids on weekends. I was just in this, this routine of just housework, like housework and childcare. And it left me no room to even do anything. Like there was no one to look after the kids. So even in the evening, I couldn't go out anywhere or do even do like a Zumba class or something like that, because I couldn't leave the kids husband wasn't till about you know 1010 at night so really, really long days. Didn't have Netflix or anything like that. So you just end up surfing video chat, just bored. I was just really really bored and frustrated because I felt like I loved to keep part playing with the kids but actually lost who I was or any kind of ambition or motivation to seem to be non stop washing, you know folding clothes. Like all that kind of thing. Which if you are someone who loves homemaking, then yeah, sure. That's that's that's great. But for me, I never loved housework. never loved that. Yeah, you know what was it like for you as a kid? I guess not damn I've always been a massive animal lovers always had a lot of pets and have dogs and you know, love being out walking with them taking the kids for days out. But then this opportunity came along. My husband was offered a potential role overseas and it never happened. And at first I said No, good. No, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. Like what? Like, and then I just thought Why Why am I adamantly saying? No, like if opportunities come along, like, should we have that knee jerk reaction to just deny it and that I stopped thinking I thought wouldn't that be an you know, an experience or an adventure or something that opens up loads of possibility? He's we lived in a small village and Dave Days were quite similar. And then weekends was like, where do we go local garden center? b&q which is homeware store, you know, mowing the grass? I thought, why not? So we, yeah, we found an opportunity. And we moved over here, the dogs and the kids and just uprooted. And it was just the best decision. It was honestly the best decision. Yeah, wow.

That's it's daunting, but exciting. You know, like, it's, you don't know what it's gonna be like when you get there. But you just go on for it.

Yeah, I honestly, I just thought, I don't know, like, I will hate it, maybe will hate it. And I told everybody, we'll be back, we'll be back into the years, two years, we'll be back, we're just doing this for a little bit. And then it's six years now.

You probably can't see yourself going back, probably

no lifestyle who's so different, like, you know, I can run my business, I can see friends, I can do this stuff I can, if we moved back, everyone else's life would kind of be the same. The mind would change, if that's the thing in mind that would be negatively impacted the most. And I don't want to give that up. But I've been working for my business. So hard, put so much into it. And if I had to go back, and then not have time for again, and not, I just I just couldn't get couldn't literally kill part of myself off because I would desperately even feel like, yeah, fight this period of my life. And I don't want I don't want to, and everybody's so happy here. The kids are happy. And husbands super happy here. And it is hard because with COVID We've been separated. So never in a million years that I wouldn't see my parents for two years.

Yeah, but

life. Life happens. And it's been really tough. But it's still the right decision. A lot of expats move back home because of this because it couldn't be separated. But from a family perspective, we feel like it's the best thing to be to be out here and just hoping this goes away. Please go away

Yes, I tell tell me all about your art. I know I've looked at it. I've looked at it on you online, and it's so bright and vibrant. And, and what you said, just through this conversation about you just want people to feel good and make people feel happy. And yeah, tell us all about it.

I actually didn't start off by doing kind of like bright happy artwork. You know, it just kind of evolved. And I realized when we moved to Singapore, and like, there seems to be a gap in the market for abstract art for the older white walls, because most people here you're renting. This is expatriates. Or like you know, not to say most people I'm sure lots of locals but for expats and things most people are renting out here and and you get the bog standard white walls, you know, everything is white. And then people have bought stuff from home or they've left from home ash. So actually, I want something for my wars. Like you know, and I don't want something mass produced and when we're not in a position where we can just go and buy something that's like, you know, 30k or whatever. So I was like, Maybe I should do something. It's been such a while since I actually tried to paint because I'd been doing photography and I've been doing pastoral pastoral drawings and watercolors for you know, just people or myself or like my kids or pets or whatever. But I'm actually really got some paints out since university or other than getting a finger painting with the kids but in that kind of more like guess Okay, let's let's make something Yeah. And first it was like, What do I paint you know when people like can't go out and and go what Okay, so I just thought what, what do I see? And then I I walk a lot and you know, I was going out I've taken all my photos of all the tropical plants and things like that, of course color inspiration. So I was doing maybe plants and flowers, and then it evolved into my city scape series which is the combination of that Uh, the architecture here surrounded by this kind of lush tropical rainforest, the foliage. And then it evolved more into the abstract expressionists pieces with the graffiti style and the colors. So it's very much evolution, but everything kind of spins back, you know, to the beginning with the flowers and the nature and the shapes. So a lot of the shapes I use in my work, and they represent things like they still represent the buildings like a you squares a lot, which represents like humanity and a lot of ways. I've started incorporating

crowns and things that was quite a recent thing. I did a breast cancer painting. It's called yas queen, and it was pink. And it's like,

it's because it had boobs in their crowns in that and it's like a real like, empowering like piece. And I liked that. And that's how painting makes me feel so empowered. It's like, makes you stand out from the crowd. Like you're not just anybody. You're an artist and you're expressing yourself and that does make me feel confident. I like the reaction. You know, when people said what do you do? And you're like, Ah, I'm an artist. And I love that it makes me feel really really empowered. So the Crown's come in as that kind of symbol of like, Yeah, I'm, I'm doing my thing and I feel positive.

Yeah, so that's really cool. I love that so you talked about photography in your past was have you always done a bit of art throughout your whole life?

Yeah, literally, I did. From the my one of my earliest memories of preschool is one of my teacher saying, Oh, well done smells. Really, you know, you've done a good job on this. And I think, you know what, when you have positive affirmation from teachers is so important. Not all teachers are good. And not all teachers are encouraging. But when you have that it makes such a difference for a child. I've been lucky. I've had some teachers that totally dismissed me as nothing, you know, like I wasn't sporty. So the PE teachers and things they were like I always liked English. So my English teachers were always very good with me, and I like creative writing or write poems and little kids stories and things that Lance anything created for me. Yep, not sporty, crap at maths, like terrible maths, I think because it's so it's either right or it's wrong. And I don't like that. I like things that are open for interpretation. And I think with artworks, people see different things evokes different emotions in people, whereas Yes, some I'm sure it does, because for some people who love math, they get very excited about equations. But for me, like, No,

I don't have a massive brain.

Just honestly awful. And then I did it for my GCSE. So I did art design. And then I went on to college. And I did basically a double A level in art and design, which is great, because basically spent most of the time doing art. I did English as well. So I did a level English and I did this double. A level. I loved it, because I think this is what made my practice kind of what it is now because I'm really experimental. I like to try different things. So people were like, Okay, you're doing this now, or you're done this, but for me, that's what should be. It shouldn't be like, Oh, I've nailed something, someone's bought it. I'll just do 1000 of these until I die. It's more. Okay, what else can we do? And I had this teacher called Yuna, and she was always like grass. Nice. Happens If you stick this on it, you know? And that was her attitude. It's like yes, that's a nice painting. What can we do to really make it not just a nice painting but as something, you know, elevated somehow. And that's exactly how I've approached my my work and I started doing the mixed media staff and I love it now. I find it really hard not to stick stuff on my work when I'm painting through this across so spray paint Tanner just just cover it in it. You know, I think when you're not scared of ruining a piece, it enables you to really kind of like, let let go and I think that society can be so so rigid and we're doing our same routine means and for me, it's like this, this big release of energy and everything is just getting a canvas, big canvas, like working big and then just going to town on it, you know, it's so releasing, and anybody can do it. Anybody can do, it doesn't have to be something that's gonna go and hang in the Tate Modern or whatever. It's just part of tapping into yourself and that primitive urge that so many of us have, like with singing or music or dancing, or, you know, whatever, we have this urge to express ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned just in passing just a little bit about your kids and their ages. Can you tell us a bit more about about your kids? Yeah, so

I've got a 12 year old daughter, and yeah, I was 20. I was 26, when I had her. So that's actually like, quite young by today's standards. I didn't, I didn't feel overly young. And in fact, I'm glad I had event because I had a kid later as well. So I've got a four year old. And, wow, your bodies are so much more tired, so much more time in your 30s then it is in your 20s Now, I don't think everybody has to like make decisions based on you know, where they are in their life and like, you know, the situations and circumstances. And for us, we got married quite young. So we were married at 24 I think we just kind of thought, shall we, you know, as so many people do, when you think about having a family kind of tends to be a bit you know, can be a bit of a like a showy, and, you know, worked out everything you don't expect it not to though, with your first you don't expect it you don't have any decent day you don't know any different you don't know about troubles with conception or miscarriages or things like that. You just expect you're pregnant. And it'll go it'll be fine. It's quite a nice easy breezy pregnancy. But with with her like I was working so I had a sales job. And I wanted to make a lot of money so that I could have comfortable maternity leave. So I basically had loads of orders coming in and coming through get the Commission's that in my head, I was like if I go for coffee and a cake or like, you know, want to treat myself to something that's all on I'm paid for it. So I'm not going to be like a financial burden by not, you know, not working and then costing extra. Yeah. But then I wanted to go back and I tried to get that but our company was bought out by someone else. And then my job wasn't there anymore. And they said you just keep applying, like through the portal. And so I was applying for jobs. I mean, I probably shouldn't have to apply for finance director, you know, didn't really have that that credentials, but the salary looks really attractive. It's like sure, I'll go back to 90k. But I tried anyway, I did. I did try. And then we got pregnant with my middle child, my son. So there's literally one month off three years between them. And yeah, I had a miscarriage in between two, I think two in between. You know, so I know then when you have that, that other pregnancies you learn that it's not always plain sailing, and it's not always, you know, given that you just get pregnant and then just have babies. But yeah, so having having taken this when I had a call from a company, it's like coming back to work. I was like, Well, you know, I'm kind of pregnant and they're gonna have another baby, baby. And then with with him, I did the maths of what I would go back to salary wise, what it would cost me to commute to work what it would cost me to have lunch or coffees or get binding work. rope, you know, and then car petrol maintenance childcare. Yeah, I would have made literally like a couple of grand like once you subtract it or taking home that 2000 pounds. That looks so good. You know, that's not like a month. Yeah.

I just don't, actually we're okay. Without my salary. We've managed, you know, we've managed voluntary redundancy, which helped and, and then, so we're okay, we just keep living the way we're living. And then I stay at home with the kids and my husband, you know, he was working long hours. And of course, he would have encouraged me to go back to work, or he would have supported me like, whatever, it was very much my decision. But he did like that I'm there. For the day taking photos, I'm there firsthand with the kids, I can tell him, you know, the little stories or showing the little video clips of what the kids did during the day, rather than coming back, you know, knackered in the evening, and then just hearing it from the childcare. So we were very privileged and very fortunate that could have done that. But everything is positive always has a negative because of course, I stepped away from the corporate world. So I could been climbing and carried on climbing the ladder. Do you take that sacrifice in a lot of ways to spend time with the kids? And then also, remember it you know, it did benefit them hugely. If they don't remember those years, then you get those comments, but daddy works really hard, you know, and that was kind of really annoying. Yeah. You just you just do this. I mean, you just, you know, get the Hoover out. And it's like, okay, okay, you know, you get the credit. You don't get the credit and you feel like you should, you should be like I'm doing everything you know, and I'm not getting paid. I'm like free.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I actually had my I was putting away some washing the other night, my eldest? No, my little one, I've got a I've got a 13 year old and a six year old. My little one says, Mum, why are you always the one that does the washing? And I said, that's a very good question. Digby, why is that? And he goes, cuz, cuz you just have time. And I said, Well, maybe I don't have time. Maybe this is something I have to fit in amongst everything else I'm doing. So why should I be the one that and it got me thinking. And I thought, this is the first time in all these years anyone's actually said that, you know, like, I had this conversation with a, a mum through this podcast. And she said, I don't remember having the conversation with my husband, when I decided I would do everything with the children said, it's just a thing that that society expects, you know, it was like, I'm expected to give up my job. I'm expected to give up my art, my body, my life, you know? And it's like, well, you wanted kids. So there you go. Like, it's just this, this thing that happens to us. And there's

what besides? society isn't very sympathetic. I see this when I read comments. I never read comments, don't read comments. It's like a horrible rabbit hole where you just think oh, my God. Yeah. The age old debate about parent child spaces. Yeah. Can I ask them in Australia, right. So I didn't realize the importance until I had kids. And you realize that actually, and even being pregnant as well, because it was a situation I couldn't get into my car. Because somebody parked and I had this massive bump, I couldn't actually get into my car. But then with kids getting them out, but then you understand that you need to open your doors wider to be able to get car seats in and out and strap your kids you need to get right in there struggling and then people like you asked you to have kids. It's not our fault if you shouldn't get special treatment. And it's like, oh my god, do you not understand how society carries on? So what if we all just went on strike? Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Then what? Then society collapses? Yeah, the, you know, no one said to pay, who pays people's pensions? We're doing this a good job, we're doing a service. And if we do a good job raising our kids, those better it all in and raise these nice people to nice people that are going to society. And that that isn't just done to me, and it's not like, well, then I've had you, I can just leave you alone. And then you'll grow up to be an outstanding member of society. It takes a huge amount

of work. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing of that. Yeah. Someone else said said the words that, that people forget that we are literally raising the next generation like we are. We are, whatever we do, and how we do it affects how society is going to be, you know, 2030 years down the track. You know, so what we do has so much value, but because it's not a monetary and monetized thing, that value just disappears or dissipates. It's just not valued.

I know I don't I don't I'll be back on tick tock

This is an interesting topic, this, the last three mums that I've spoken to have, we've all gotten to this, this topic about the way that the mums have been shafted, basically through through COVID. It's yeah, we're the first ones to go and the least appreciated, but, you know, doing the the really hard emotional work, but, you know, that's just what you got to do. Society just expects that and one of the mums said, because she was selling her artwork, it made her and her husband as wealth feel like it was a legitimate job. She said, if I was just doing my art, for me, just as a, you know, something fun, or something I enjoy to do, it wouldn't have been important enough to keep doing, you know, so it's also that monetary value that we have to play some things important. Yeah, that's

what he does. Because it says that you're, you know, if you're a big roller, then you're successful. And it doesn't eat. I mean, success is totally subjective, anyway, because Am I successful? Only if I earn crazy amounts of money, like, you know, and these artists are doing credibly? Well, not definitely not the, the the rule, they're the exception to the rule and female artists to get to that point. It's pretty much impossible, because society still banks on the male artists, so can we go to auction? It's always the male artists, these their works are going off for billions. You know, women tend to get that that look in. And until society changes if it ever changes. Because every time we go in the right direction, something comes along and it sets us back. Yeah, thank you. With COVID Set women back climate change the people, they said the people that suffer, suffer the most with that will be women so so we keep we keep bouncing back. And we try and we don't we don't give up. Keep keep going. And but yeah, it's I don't know what your success I feel successful. Because I'm doing something that I that I enjoy, I want to make money from it. And I need to really, because otherwise, how am I going to pay for my materials or whatever. That's what we do is this kind of unpaid work. Because when you're self employed, everything that you're doing your your Instagram, and then people who will say, Oh, you're just messing around on Instagram, it's like, I'm actually not like, I'm a marketing, you know, professional. You know, it and to be that person I looked into, like, how much it costs to get someone involved in all that kind of stuff. It's expensive. So doing all this stuff myself to cut cut costs. And yeah, when people like somebody laughed, I said, I was expensive to be an artist and somebody laughed. I went, No, it really is.

Yeah, and that's the mentality isn't it? That's how they that's what they think it's like, what what you're just you're just fluffing around, doing whatever. Yeah. That people have in their minds.

Yeah. And they don't realize when they see something sell and they go whoa, money bags, and like you don't realize how many cameras I've bought, how much paint I've bought, you know, my studio I rent it's like these these things that I'm putting in and I still not I'm still not making huge profits or no I'm keeping enough and making enough so that I can my business going. Like if for whatever reason, I suddenly had to be the main breadwinner. I couldn't do this full time you know, I'm not making enough that I can be like sure guys are pay the rent our payment, you know, our buy the food shopping. Honestly, I couldn't I want to get points and that's what I'm working towards. So that's my goal. Like, okay, I can keep my business going now. But I want to get to the point and I think I'm entitled to get to the point of doing this that I can be like I'll pay the bills you know, I'll put food on the table like yeah, you know yeah won't be good on Yeah. I don't think it's like unrealistic or like, you know, unjust a one. Be saying and kind of have that motivation to try you know, try to do it.

Yeah, absolutely not good for you Yeah, I think everyone's really had enough of this pandemic.

Oh, God, just so depressed. I think it stems my work through through the pieces. Like I then kind of went through this rebellion, because it's so like, you know, unhappy like, I'm not really I'm not a really upbeat person all the time. Like, I'm a Pisces, so I am like, one minute I'm like, I love everybody. I've already is amazing. And next is just like, oh my god, yoga new Mommy, you know, is this changes like, I do get bouts of like feeling low and feeling down and things like that. But I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist. So my husband's like, the more pessimistic and I'm always like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's do it. But I do get down, not just constantly high on life. And I did find it really hard. Because so many of my plans were canceled as well. And I didn't want to feel down because I was like, How dare I, you know, people are really suffering. Yeah. And I kind of thought, actually, I am entitled to acknowledge that I feel down, like, singing from the rooftops. And like, you know, so Oh, woe is me. But like, just to allow myself to actually acknowledge I feel a bit a bit low and a bit disappointed. And I think disappointment is the hardest emotion to deal with. But as a kid as well, like kids, yeah, you're going to Disneyland all of a sudden, you're not going to do that. That is such a hard that's such a hard emotion and it doesn't get any easier as you're an adult.

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true.

And you tell yourself, you should deal with this. You're grown up, you know, but you still like things you just say actually disappointed. You flying to all these places, or these countries and doing these shows, and they're like, Wow, this is gonna launch me I'm gonna be there. And the same goes to me, who am I gonna meet different artists, galleries, different whatever. And it's like, knowing you're not going anywhere. You're staying in Singapore for two years.

But I guess the The upside to that is no one else is going anywhere. So

it's not exactly and I just channeled it or reversed it. And I went through Blue periods. I did people who followed them for a while remember, I just like non stop blue stuff. This has been locked down to begin with, as I blue blue, like depressed blue. And then I just like no, do you know what I can't if I'm not dealing with it? Color. And that's when like, I just believe she rebelled. And I made these like, obnoxiously cheerful, like pieces. It's a kind of like fingers up to like that kind of down feeling. I was like, No, I'm gonna surround myself with these joyful colors and joyful things. And we were in our house right in our house can't leave anywhere. It's had all these paintings all over the walls that hung everywhere. And it was so nice having that I realized people realize being at home, they should have more art. You know, when you're stuck. Actually having just some piece, it makes you feel cheerful and makes you feel good, honestly, does change your space. And if you wake up to that and see if it doesn't lift you as well, you feel like calm surrounded by something beautiful, something positive. And it has that effect on your mood instantly, instantly.

Yeah, absolutely. It's like you've decided that the outside world's going to hell, but that's fine. Because in my space, everything's lovely food and I'm creating, you're making, you're making it what you want it to be

control. I think a lot of people when you feel out of control, you want to harness some control, right. And this happens a lot of the time, there was a period of time where we were all just completely out of control. And I think when you can control some element of your life, it brings you some kind of relaxation, some kind of safety as well, so I can't control this. And particularly as we were we're a family of five and the rules were all like, you know groups of two, so you'd get out or you know, or one and I had a toddler so my youngest is four. So in the height of Dan, who's two years old, like so full of energy and take him to his little preschool will take Come to like, all these indoor playgrounds, you can run around and just burn off that energy. All of a sudden, he can't leave the house and it's like, wow, the odor to them all right, they were already into like gaming and that kind of thing. They could entertain themselves pretty much. Having having a toddler is like a whole new. Yeah. You want to go out you want to let them run out. And they're also worried about like them not getting any vitamin D or anything. Yeah, we've had a balcony we weren't even allowed outside. So this is how bad it was. And we don't have a garden because we're in a like a what they call here Cluster House, which is like multiple units with shared you know, shared pool shared shared gardens. So because you don't own it we weren't even allowed to go outside like no remaining your property no bounce no balcony. No you know anything so it was really tough.

Oh, that's horrible.

Well, we because we were in what they call a condo before and I'm so glad at least we moved to this house because now we're kind of more separated and then my husband could still work without everybody being in basically one room because how stressful is that? Because if you've got some need some new trying to do a job and then you've got shouting kids and then you're the one that can also I didn't want to because women really suffered during this because awesome their work if it what weren't paid enough, you know, you're not the breadwinner, your your job has to take that slip, you know, and this was what happens how we ever supposed to catch up if we can't do it, you know, who keeps in cold all yours is just a sideline, yours is a hobby, yours is, you know, doesn't in the big bucks was never going to bring the big bucks is it it's always a sideline

exam. You never get the chance to

know exactly, it's always that whole first sign of trouble. You've got to, you've got to look after the kids but my husband, he's, he's very, he's very good, strangely FC, or he's very good. You know, he, he doesn't ever try and dismiss my, my job what I do as a sideline or hobby. And, yeah, he's really supportive. And he's got a huge amount of belief in me. And I think that makes such a difference or in a partnership. And it works both ways. Because I've always supported him, you know, as well. So it goes it goes both ways. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman.

You talked about doing your pastels and your watercolors and stuff. Were you doing that while the kids were little like we able to do any of this

for when my daughter was born. And the first like year of life, I think for maybe my son, I didn't do anything. Honestly, I took photos always had like an SLR camera. And I just like to go out and do that. I took loads of pictures and kids and all that stuff. But I literally had no time. And I told me about your recurrent dream where we we had a house. And one day I just discovered this door. I opened the door. And it's this whole wing like of a house like this stuff that we didn't even know we had. And it's like, oh my god, wow, when did we get ballroom? This house, this house was so important. And you just like I had this dream so often. And I'm looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring and neglecting and it's there the whole time going. Come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like because this is I've done I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece. It was totally neglected. And then I took a picture of the kids and I thought just to make such a nice drawing makes it such a nice truck. And I just got pastels and I drew it. And what's really nice, like, it's really nice, I haven't done anything so long. That's really pretty. We framed it and, and then it's kind of just started me doing that. So I use my daughter all the time as like my muse and I did little drawings and then other people in the village was like, Oh, can you do my kids? Can you do my dog? And can you, you know, deal with this. And then that started the business in its early infancy. So that when I came to Singapore, I registered business care, because I was enjoying doing that it wasn't bringing in much money, because it's, it doesn't at that point. And I did it for again, businesses, friends, people, paying you to do the other kids, family, whatever. And that gave me some confidence. And also, yeah, like a little bit of extra income, like, you know, but it wasn't really ticking the boxes in terms of letting loose creatively, because when you're doing someone's kid, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, I'm gonna stick. Goodbye row on there. Doesn't look like my child. And so you it's very much formulated, you've got to grid it out, you've got to play it, it's got to look like the person you're drawing because that's the whole point of those kinds of paintings. Okay, but does it really identify? Like me as well? Just like, is it stand out? Is it recognizable? Because the next part of being an artist is, is developing a style and your style can change. It doesn't have to be this is my style. Now I'm good. I'm staying with this stuff ever. You look at the Masters look at the artists and history with their work isn't the same thing replicated? Like basically carbon copy for that wherever you've artists that do everything like installations. Her like your customer, right? So she's, she's got photo photo, she's got installations, she's got painting she's got, but you don't have to pay for your creativity. You can really, yeah, like circumnavigate the whole, the whole spectrum and, and just give things a go. I've done pottery. I've never done that. late, so I was like, Yes, I'm gonna sign up for a pottery course. Like, you know, why not? What things can you learn? You just learned different, different things about your, you know, your capability. I mean, I'm, I'm not going to do pottery going forward. I think at first I thought I was had this romanticized idea that it'd be super easy, like just throwing pots. And then I imagined painting them in these colors. And I just kind of thought, Yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to be my thing. And it's like, I didn't really shit I still carried on, because I'm a truck. And I've got some nice pieces around the house. But yeah, it's not. It's not for me, I find it to

just like what painting gives me which is the freedom that desperately I don't like being restricted or following a formula, which is, you know, pottery and things like that. It's, it's an exact kind of science. And there's a, there's an exact kind of way to do it. And I've got a huge respect for them. But also, it just takes so long. Needed clay out, then you could, you know, you'd roll in spinning it and pull it and then you've got to wait for it to bisque and then you've got to glaze it and you've got to fire it. So takes weeks to get one piece you know, can roll out a massive canvas, like huge canvas, and just spend the day slapping paint on it and like, you know, building the app and in terms of maybe, I mean, I'm an instant gratification person to work on this that's it, I need to take my time. Rather than expect to come out at the end of the day with something workable, you know, that's very interesting.

In practice a lot of yoga and one of the terms they they say, if you hate a particular pose, and that's the one you need to work on, because that's the one that's challenging you might not be physically but mentally so there you go. Yeah. Might be that might be your, your thing.

Impatient as far as like, I've got no patience at all I hate queuing. Like, you know, I hate that kind of thing. I'm really, really patient like as a person. So yeah, but I've started doing yoga as well. Have I need it because I'm so I'm so uptight. I'm like the real kind of wound, tightly wound kind of person. And I've got issues with this because it causes me physical pain, like I clench my teeth, or Yeah, yeah. And just my neck pain is awful. I've been having physiotherapy for it for ages. And some days, it's so bad, it just gets me really, really down because it's horrible living in constant like constant pain. And then it puts me off going to the studio, because when I go to the studio, I spend a lot of time on like Cantonese, I do that and then when you're scaring in one position a lot of time as well. And then, you know, I ended up putting my neck more sometimes after a lengthy day, in this year, so I'm like, Okay, well, I've got yeah, I've got my mouth God, now we're running out of time, this and that. And now I'm like, Brad, I need to do yoga, I need to find that harmony, that relaxation and just learn to focus on doing that. And not constantly Oh, I better check Instagram, Oh, I better do this. I'm going to upload to this I'm gonna do that already should be painting or I should do this or I should do some exercise you just little you know, there's so many things. I can just sit in my head. I'm like, promotional guy. I love it. And I started doing outdoor yoga. Last year, I've had a number of health problems, which has stopped me from getting into into it, I want to and I think the motivations there. So just just life keeps getting in the way. But they do the outdoor class at the botanical gardens. And I'd say I love walking. So for me that is my exercise. I don't like the gym, I don't enjoy any of that. I like just walking, taking photographs, like just getting out in nature, quite often on my own, just just the solitary you know, stop, I'll have a coffee on my own like love it, I find that really, really relaxing. So I started doing this outdoor yoga class outside. And the rigor itself was fun, like it's nice. My favorite bit was last bit when they get you to lie. And maybe had these like ice cold flannels that you put maybe your face and you just lay there, like totally exposed because there's there's everything there like, you know, otters and monitors are watching over you. You're like you don't get attacked. And it just that was just the best moment like that because people don't find that cyclic, quiet, solace, just pure relaxation in our day to day lives. Really? We don't really Yeah, that's it

my daughter is 12 and she's not allowed Instagram. And the reason I say that is because for me my my algorithm knows I'm only interested in art accounts. So my home my home page and my explorer page is like just basically ours. They do still sneak in some celebrities you know I've heard is that you know the Spider Man guy and stuff like that I'm showing an interest in in that but it seems to be really really pushing that I should be interested in Yeah,

I'm sure there's like the big companies must pay to be able to get their stuff on that that Explore page because this stuff comes up about like to say I've because I'm I love Star Wars. So Adam Driver, like from the actor from Star Wars. Any movie that he then is in it comes up with the trailers of that and I'm like, like, I love Star Wars. I don't necessarily love this guy, but I like to tell but they're trying to like, you know, Lady Gaga or come up because he was in a movie with her.

She's that's it, her and the guy from Star Wars. You're right, that he's all over my school page. I've got like three stars, but I don't mind because I do actually watch the hairstyle stuff. So I'm like, Yeah, fine, like I do. I do like his posts. I'm like, It's fine. I don't I'll watch them because I'm quite happy to have art and Harry Styles on my school page nine with my daughter when my daughter borrowed my phone. She started looking at this was like about a year ago. I think she was a kid these row, you know, row bucks, whatever. It's all very robust. Alright. And she was looking at some room examples or something. And then I looked at my Explore page, and then all of a sudden, it's full of women. We mean, you know, little clothes and things like this acid, this is the problem. Like, you've looked at that and it's gone. What does the person who's looking at this want to look at? Or if they don't wanna look at but what you know, and then it's such a unrealistic female body types and things like this, and I use it as a, as a way to have a discussion, you know, with her about these filters, because I'm guilty of doing it too, right? Yeah, not every like, not every post I put on my feed is, is 100% natural with no no lighting tweaks or something like that. But like, Come on, we live in a day and age and there's nothing wrong with trying to show your flattering, you know, more flashy stuff. Some of them are just want to say then there's nothing on there. There's no filter. It's just done straight from my thing. Because, yeah, I'm not trying to sell cosmetics or whatever. It's my artwork. Yeah. But then, hopefully, if I'm doing a real or something, then what? Yeah, I'm guilty.

Yeah, that's the thing, too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look the way that you want to present yourself, either. Like, I had some photos done recently, because I'm releasing a new album next year, or hopefully this year. And I got some photos done and, and the lady that did them is like a proper portrait photographer. So she's telling me like, put your chin out and drop it down, and then lean forward and all this. And I'm like, I know, I'm going to look, I'm going to look better, because my double chin is not going to come out. Like this is okay. Because this is I mean, it's a it's a technique, I suppose to make you look more appealing, I don't know. And I thought when I was doing it, I thought is this bad, but I'm not just standing like a normal person. And he said,

we get shamed into doing this. This is the thing that you say you're guilty if and Badgett and I always if someone says, You look great, I'm the first one to say it's a filter, you know, and I think we've got to stop doing that. Because the the celebrities or whatever the Instagram influencers, they're not being forthcoming with that information.

Yeah. And that's the thing, like, even the amount of airbrushing, like I didn't realize too, I don't know how long ago when, maybe 10 years ago when all this big thing come out about the airbrushing that we're using in magazines and all that I was just like, Ah, so they're not that perfect. Like, you know, you have this moment of you think that because you cuz I don't know, they there's these these people that exist in the world that are absolutely flawless, you know, but maybe, maybe they're pretty good, but no one's absolutely perfect. You know, when you zoom right into your pores like no one is that perfect.

That's the thing with the models and things like that in your teen magazines and we didn't have internet when I was little we had all these teen magazines are just 17 all that kind of stuff right? Read that but they would airbrush all the girls have these flawless skin and now you're like 1415 with a breakout and you know with a Tash? And it's like, well, where's, you know, where are these people and I just an anomaly, but then you're looking around your friends at school and you're like,

yeah. But I'm saying that too. Like when I had these photos time, the photographer asked me if she wanted, she said, Do you want me to airbrush out some of you? You know, yeah, it's close feed or whatever. And I was like, no, because that's me, you know, like, I don't know, I just felt like, okay, you can make me look more flattering. Physically, that's fine, but don't take away my character. You know, like, that's, you know, all these guys into my art and my creating, like, if I hadn't experienced life, I wouldn't have these lines to show it and I wouldn't have the story.

I know it is. It is hard. And when you put your face on something, say like your music, it's a bit like a book cover. In a way, you know, somebody's gonna look at your album. And now the first thing they'll judge you on isn't by the contents because they can't see it. They can't hear it. You know, they don't know. They might not know your backstory There literally is like taking that first image of you and making that decision if they want to press play on the you know, on a thing or I don't know Do people CDs anymore? I don't know.

I still get them printed. But yeah, I mean, this is the thing like that's, this is the photo, right? So that's it. That's what they see. From that they have to decide if they like my music or not. Yeah, likely they have bad

luck like it though. I like that. It's really nice. It's really approachable. It's an approachable photo, you know? And if that I don't, I haven't listened to music, but Um, now I would get that it was more uplifting so you're not like a sole key like I don't know you might be but from that Yeah, I think it's like kind of more like uplifting rather than yeah depressing doom and gloom

that's that's you look at you go you're like the Analyze of this and that's

it think as a woman we are totally judged on more of our appearance and like you can't win because honestly, if you show too much flesh, you're told that you're selling out or you're doing this. If you're too conservative, then you frumpy and, and, you know, I had a negative I don't get trolled, like I might do after this. But I don't get out. You know. I think and I'm not controversial. I don't have like, I don't share strong opinions or strong views. I keep it like, no politics, no religion. No, you know, because it's not, that's not what my my painting is about. It's about making people happy rather than provoking or, you know, any kind of I got trolled. A while ago, the photo was new. And I live in Singapore, right? It's hot, it's sweaty. I live in shorts. And like needle, I have a little you know, singlet tops or little T shirts. Because it's boiling. It's like 33 degrees. And hardly anybody wears anything. It's just day to day. And the photo I was in, I was just wearing what I was wearing that day. So I haven't got changed or done anything special for it. Just what this is what I've been wearing. While I've been painting, I'll just sit in front of it and take picture. Somebody wrote, Wow, good job setting back women painters, 50 years. But the thing is, didn't realize their comment is setting. That is not me, because there's a word entitled to wear whatever I want. But also wearing Sports Shorts. You go to a fitness page, like are these women getting like, you know, they're wearing a sports bra? I wasn't wearing a sports bra. But if I was, you know, I'm allowed to.

And I think a comment like that just shows where that person is in their mentality. Like this, they are in this in their being they are the ones holding it back because they continue to think like that, you know, they made a decision to see you like that because that's how they're feeling about it. You know,

I was strange because it wasn't it wasn't a sexual but even if it was, but it wasn't. But you know, it's like still like, it's my prerogative. I mean, if a woman wants to show her body, it's like it's up. It's up to them. I'm not going to go through and the Internet, I'd be there for weeks. You know, just being negative comments on anybody who's scantily clad for for male, female, or transgender whatever, there's so much flesh on display on Instagram. But if you're looking for that, I wouldn't say Come to My Account

changing tack just slightly I want to ask you about the concept of mum guilt. I mean, we call it mum guilt here. I don't know if you have the official hashtag mum guilt over there. But yeah, have you come across that sort of interview with your art like that taking

that time for yourself? Do you have those feelings of I should I should be with the kids or that kind of stuff? Yeah, actually, when I started painting that property painting, I waited until the kids were in bed. It's like, you know, painting till like midnight. Because I was high choir. I don't want it to take away my time with the kids. So I was Yeah, I was doing it cramming in. So instead of time where I should have been probably relaxing. It was like now I've got to gotta create content. Keep going in on these things, it's quite good in a way because you know, you have to create content. So it pushes you to make that schedule and make sure you're showing up so it stops you kind of slipping away and think, Oh, I'm a bit busy at the moment. It's just taking some time finding some time because you don't even have to do anything massive or spectacular. Honestly, like I do. arted this year doing abstract faces, right and small with a three paper. And I'm just doing them as this busy extended visit this year, I got lots of stuff coming up and government wisdom teeth out this week I know I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to go into the studio and do massive pieces and things that I'm gonna have to take easy. So, I mean, my three paper and some paints here, I can find some time to do something. Small, and weed. Now the kids are older, and so they're all at school and stuff. So it don't feel the guilt. But when I was in traveling, this has nothing to do with guilt. Right? So he's kind of all but if I do this show, and I go, Well, I'm gonna be way I'm gonna be in a different country away from my kids. Whereas Yeah, if you're, if you're a man, that's your job, you just travel a lot. I'm not saying they don't also, you know, don't feel guilty, because it'll be a lot of men that travel and they don't want to, you know, they didn't want to, but you know, whatever to go wherever the money is, and whatever. But yeah, you do feel that, oh, I'm away from my kids, I'm gonna rush back and get back, you know, get back to the kids and, like, whatever. But what makes it all worth it, it will not be worth it. It's like how, when they're over it now. But when I first started when I started selling, they were so proud. And they're so excited. And they only tell the teachers on my mom's and our tears. There's a middle son's was asking me if I'm famous yet. Many YouTube subscribers, you know, people have an audience. I'm like, No, I don't have that. I'm not I'm not famous. You know, it's different, different measurements, but I like that now they have that. But now if I sell it, okay to my daughter, I'm still going to be like yeah, it's good. That's something you know, and, and inspiring debt to, to be more creative. And I think then growing up in a household that has a lot of art is a really nice, really nice way to grow up like books as well. It's shocking how many, how many houses don't have any books, we have loads of books and art, I think, super important. None of us are that musical. I wish we were I wish we were I never learned an instrument. I feel like probably not going to now. The ship has sailed. Kids do music at school. And apparently, my daughter's quite promising. Her teacher was saying that she's you know, she's just showing some, some promise and music. Because it would be nice if one of them did something musical, you know, just got the clarinet out or something that's like

just careful what you wish for my son is learning the bagpipes. So yeah, at the moment, he doesn't have a bag at home, but he has the charter. So we'll be watching the television. And he will just walk down the passage and just stand there in the lounge. Like I'm putting on a show right now. And my husband, I'll just be like, Hi. But yeah, sort of saying careful what you wish for because you end up with that clarinet in your head at four o'clock.

Who isn't gonna change things? We're not like, Wait, we're not really really super pushy parents either. Because my mom and dad are so laid back like so laid back. They never pushed us to do anything. Yeah, he's on with it. And I think it's quite good. Because I think self motivation is really important. And if you're having every aspect of your life and managed, you don't have that it's like oh, now it's guitar lessons. Now it's Chinese now. It's extra maps. It's like, yeah, you're not allowing yourself to ever have a moment of what shall I do with my life? Like what should i How should I entertain myself? There's always things that you think you should be doing, like you know, I joined Tik Tok and YouTube and then and Twitter and then there's just not enough minutes in the day to do them to just do them all. We just never do anything.

Yeah, I basically I stick to I love eating grant, that's my favorite social medium. And I did, I looked at tick tock and I thought, Oh God, I could spend all day just looking at stuff on here and not do anything else. So

you do, obviously, I stopped, I've stopped looking at it. Because the algorithms, they know what you kind of want to look at. And then if you look at a few videos, then it was just showing me non stop videos that were making me kind of angry. And it's like, Oh, this isn't this is what the problem was some social media is that it does that doesn't it? And it can make you kind of feel angry about something. And I'm like, I don't want to be watching this and feeling angry chick leaves, you tend to scroll just before you go to sleep. Yeah, and then filed up, you know about issues to do with women, because he knows it's like, it's like, oh, she's got some feminist, you know, feminist views. So give her like, non stop feminist stuff. And then I'm just getting really angry and like, you know, the damn The

thing is like, with kids, like no one really prepares you either for what your support is like, and I really struggled. I'm somebody who really enjoys alone time, like, you know, very comfortable in my own time and my own space. And if I'm with people all the time, drives me just insane. I just need some time to just be away for people not talk. And like a very social antisocial person. But then all of a sudden, you've got something with you 24 hours a day. And, and you know, I've never had a baby, I remember them sending me home with her. And I was like, hey, what, you know, I've never had one. All right. Me, me. What happens, you know, needs medical attention. And is that feeling was like, well done. Good job. Off you go. Yes, your person to take home. It's so crazy. And you're going from being able to go to the loo and have a shower and a coffee or just whatever, go to Sainsbury's or you know, a supermarket and just browse the home, or items or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my god, get in there now get go, go, go, go go grab the essentials, and cheese screen read off because she's suddenly decided she's starving. Then you've got to drop the trolley and then run off to find somewhere. It's like, your bow. I mean, it's just completely different. Just just just like that overnight. Yes, completely.

Yep. It's like, Yeah, I had this feeling when I when I left hospital. I thought you saw that I can? Am I Am I okay, doing this? Like, do you don't want to like vet me to make sure it's okay that I can actually do this. Like,

if you were adopting, you'd have to add it. So

assumption that you'll know what to do. I'm in with this woman. I was because I was very. Yeah, I hadn't been around a lot of kids. When I had my first child. I didn't really know what I was mean, no one knows what they're doing. But I literally didn't know what to do. And I was barfing give gave the baby's first bath. And I was like, have like, how do I wash him? Like, what? Like, how hard do I press? Like, what do I do? And this nurses, just listen to your intuition. You'll know what to do. And I thought, no, but I actually don't know what to do.

With you, they're meant to show you in the hospital was

like, Oh, no. And there was this, oh, my God, this thing, this sign? Because like, I'm a very, like, I like to know, structure. And like, I'm not as bad now. But when I had when I had Alex, it was like, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Like, what might what to expect with this kid? Like, how's it going to work? How often do I feed him? How long is he going to be sleeping for? And this nurse said to me off every baby's different? And I thought, well, that's a great answer, isn't it? That tells me nothing. And then

it's true. Is true, because some of them sleep. Some of them don't. Some of them get colleagues, some of them.

It wasn't until I started to work, I work start to work in childcare when Alex went back to school. And I just went, Oh my gosh, now I understand that. She told me but at that time, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do. And of course, no one can tell you what to do. Because no one knows what your kid's gonna be like.

I didn't read any of them books either. You know, I just I'm just like, Jenny, what? They don't want to be stressed out by schedule. I'm not somebody who's a brace schedule. I'm totally unscheduled, you know, into the point where it's like, I forget what my schedule is all the time. So I get phone calls. Aren't you supposed to be here now? I'm like shared So I didn't want to be worried about like, Fiji, which I'm Devon and then this time, and it wouldn't have worked with Isla anyway, because I pretty much gaffer taped her onto my chest all day, because that is just what where she wanted to be, and I just didn't do anything else. And my husband would take her so I could just get a break. Yeah, it's like, because as soon as she's on me, she was just routing routing routes all the time. Like, me, basically, is that like a giant passerby? Yeah. Like, it's like, can you have it for a bit and he was so good in the way that he would always as soon as he was there, we would take her and, and it always allowed me to get some rest. I mean, he couldn't do the night feeds. They just refuse. We tried. We tried. I tried, like, you know, the bottles and things just so I could. I was woken up anyway. And I'm somebody, I'm awake. It takes me a really, really long time to get to sleep. So I could then hear him struggling to try and get her to have it and I'm just not it's just not worth it actually, because it's not it's not getting anywhere. I'm not getting any more rest and it's just as as a mommy, you have that. It's a horrible trigger, isn't it? That when you feel hear your baby crying is a primitive, primordial like anxiety that you just triggers like now I can hear a newborn baby crying I'm like

Oh, my God, my God. It's just really good. Set all your instincts like heightened alert.

Yep, absolutely. And then the physical like your body starts to you start to leap because it's like, right, yeah. I happened in I was in target one time. Alex mom was looking after him when he was a baby. And I heard this baby cry two hours across next minute. My boobs when I'm just like, that's not even my kid.

Crying in the shower, and it wasn't even then like you're right. It's like, no, no, no. You know, there's no no, but we have with with my kids. My husband wasn't there. Showering becomes a real luxury. And I remember being trying to shower like a lightning speed. Tape my middle son in a baby bouncer like literally facing me while I'm in the shower. And I'm trying to sing to him. And I'd be like, you know, keeping really happy. It's just like puce in the face. Just so angry to hear you out. So you can see me and obviously can see the boobs. outraged. But little things like that showering, saving yourself. Honestly, either yourself, like, just Adam, my husband would take island just so I could have my food. Yeah, this little things like that. You can't even eat shower, go to the loo like, it's just so relentless. And it's just not prepared for it. Nothing, nothing can prepay

for it now. And that's the thing to even if people do try and prepare you for it, you just dismiss it because you get a heart. It can't be that they're not you know, because you've got no idea. wouldn't matter what anybody told you. I remember reading a book and it said about what to do if your baby's fussy or whatever. And I was like, I didn't need to read this, my baby's gonna be perfect. You know, like, just total blissful denial what's about to happen to me,

You do kind of think to yourself why like, mostly, this one's gonna love it to none of mine slept No, they were over to just is, it just is what it is, is what it is. I mean, you hear, I've got friends who've got kids that were like five and didn't, you know, didn't sleep through. So you just got to be grateful with your, you know, but my middle, my middle son, he used to get colic and stuff. And that was really horrible. So I was trying to feed him that, you know, the great water and in for coal and all that stuff. Because the worst thing was, even when he was asleep, he would make these noises. So I'd be trying to sleep and I've got this kind of like, you know, little rising thing, and he never wanted to not be close to you. So there was none of this sleeping, you know, in a Bayes net, like, there or like in a car, so I didn't feel comfortable having him in my bed, either. Because I'm worried about suffocating him, especially when you're so tired, that he's just exhausted, I worried like, What if I fall asleep in that role on him or something? So what we did is we took the side of his car and now you can buy these, you know, great inventions, we can actually stick them up at the side of the car and just put it right up against my bed and I had to sleep half hidden his cot half in my bed. And as soon as he was asleep I try and retract you know so like this like a ninja trying to take my spike, but he just sensed it. They sent it like just no longer. Yeah. And I'd wake up and I could barely move my neck and my arm be like dad like pins and needles.

Yeah, the things we have to do Hey.

Yeah, and they won't remember any of it.

Probably for the best to be honest.

What those early years, early months or so, so fundamental in a kid's development, like, if you don't do the right things, then never those connections are never formed. And that person never developed the way they're supposed to. So all those little things that you did like all the silly talk, and all the you know, the smiles and all that it's so authentic, and all the code and I think that's it you feel stressed by? Because you feel like you should be doing so many things. Like you know, when you've got a new phone, especially if you've got a toddler as well, it's really it's really difficult. That those cuddles in those first district so quick, like six weeks and it's different, right? Yeah. When tiny, tiny, tiny, and just having those moments like cherish but this snuggled up on you and they smell nice. There. And, you know, it goes so fast.

He really does it, really.

But my daughter now she's 12 she's gonna be 13 this year, she's the same height as me. She's gonna be taller than me. I'm not I'm not that tall, though. So it's not that hard. But, you know, she's already so grown up. Like, I think people always say, oh, kids are so grown up these days. I think probably, I don't think I think that's probably the same. They just have access to more information these days. That's the best the difference. We didn't have

it connected to the world. Yeah, yeah, we just didn't have that.

The big piece of me looking at it in my sport shorts. It's, it's called Making my claim. And that was the whole the whole thing about like ties into the feminism and just saying, like, I'm here, like, I'm a woman, I'm here. I'm a mother. You know, I'm of a certain age, society kind of discards you, when you reach a certain age. In a way, it's the same that I'm making my claim. I'm here. I want to be a contender. And have the ambitions is something that's often you know, it's kind of, oh, she's ambitious, too. You know, it's like in negativity. When it comes to a woman. They say, It's okay to be ambitious. Like, it's okay. You should be good. And it's okay to put your own your own needs. Not above everybody. I don't believe that. It's like, oh, my needs first because I'm a mother and No, but my needs are there, though. They're there. And then we met, it shouldn't be the chocolate into this because that's just not how it's just not how any family. Yeah, it's the same with like, you know, a kid you can't get your needs matter above everybody else's, like all the time, because you're gonna grow up with this kind of little dictator. Compromising like compromising just so everybody's living, you know, nice, happy,

happy. Exactly. Everyone's getting their needs met, but no one to the detriment of anyone else. And it's, you're not setting Anyone up for, you know, failure through their life by think making them think that they they're up here and everyone else is down here. And, you know, ya

know, it's like about going to what you want everything as well. And that understanding that not everybody's on the same, you know, not everyone's running the same race, as well as there's things that you can be a really hard worker, but you'll never get to the point that somebody else will be more privileged perspective will reach it's just not it's just not how the world works. And that's, that's just it. It's horrible. And we're fighting for change. We're fighting for, you know, saying just by being present on social media and having a platform being a woman and showing our faces and showing our art and encouraging other women to do the same then at least we're doing a little bit to get it in the right direction.

Absolutely. And the more more people that do it, it just, you know, it just builds on itself and just keeps keeps going and going to one day it happens yeah.

Somebody said to me recently who's your main competitor, like in Singapore and tell me I'm touched is because he can't, if someone likes a piece you can't go up while they're in the process of buying someone else's piece and be like, weather my mind

they just see, there's no such thing as competitors, you can be like, better known, so you'll fight for your spec market, because we have to, you know, it's like that. But you can't, you can't fight to be, you know, for somebody to buy a piece that they're going to buy someone else's. And it's like, actually, this is quite unique in that way. This what we're doing as artists, we really, really support each other. Yeah, yeah. And learn from each other as well. There's so much learning and I say, actually, I learned so much from Instagram, like, full of inspiration, getting inspired all the time. So I did a post recently, I have to say, like, you know, massive props to all the artists that are doing that stuff together and giving it to us for free. You know, it's, it's free, and we can see not just a couple of paintings a year a show. Yeah, you know what I wish we would have done 10 years ago, whatever. Yeah. thing that you'd be posts from people's people's practice. It's, it's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. And it's been such a pleasure chatting with you squint so lovely.

We could chat all day.

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